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Re: 1812 vs Napoleonic events

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  • mmathews@xxxx.xxxxxx.xxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    ... Since I am the person in question, please understand no offense was taken. More of a sigh of disappointment. It s such a nice looking place. I feel
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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      >From: Betsy Bashore <bashore@...>
      >
      >I recieved an email inquiring about events at the site where I work from
      >a napoleonic group. When I replied that our 1812 era events are not
      >open to Napoleonic soldiers, some offense was taken.

      Since I am the person in question, please understand no offense was taken.
      More of a "sigh" of disappointment. It's such a nice looking place.

      I feel truly sorry
      >for the Napoleonic bunch-- that there aren't that many real battlefields
      >to use-- that your "battlefields" are across the atlantic, and that the
      >1812 U.S. troops seem to take so much exception to being asked to be
      >French or Belgian. So perhaps I can clarify the opinion of our Unit
      >(19th U.S. Langhams Co.)
      >
      >-We are not Belgian or French and if we come to a napoleonic event we
      >will make correct/appropriate unifroms and attire for the Napoleonic
      >War. We expect the same from Napoleonic reenactors wanting to come to
      >US/Canadian War of 1812-15 events. Attending as observers or "allies"
      >just doesn't work for us, though the British reenactment groups have a
      >greater latitude (even historically) to permit this. If you want to play
      >in N America at 1812 sites as a Frenchman, do a Chausseur de Brittanique
      >role (or whatever its called).

      This seems to be a U.S. or perhaps North American sentiment. When at
      Waterloo in '95 the fact that Hougemont was defended by Russian Jagers
      didn't bother me, or that Austrians appeared in force with the Prussians.
      At Fishquard in '97 our French unit fought along "Hoch und Deutschmeister"
      against the British, but no one seemed to object. At least to my knowledge
      all were welcome regardless of whether they were there or not.

      I guess my philosophy is that a bunch of properly attired, safe reenactors
      from the same time line would/should be welcome. Bit of the "brothers (and
      sisters in our case) in arms" thing. But there are many things in the
      reenacting world I don't understand, just being at it for a comparatively
      short time (7 years). Like why there are often eight units of eight men
      each, rather than one real unit of 64? But that's the topic of another
      discussion. I was planning to introduce this topic of French involvement
      at some point, but wanted to get the feel of the list first. But to
      paraphrase, "the eggs are broken, so let's make an omelet!" ;-)

      >-The War of 1812 represents a period in U.S. history that, while less
      >understood today, played an important role in U.S. development. And
      >real people died there-- And we represent them through our actions. I
      >feel that a ficticious battle on ground where U.S. and
      >British/Canandians died is quite an insult to all involved, including
      >the NA soldiers representing folks who died in Europe-- Not that its not
      >fun and all, but realize that asking US troops to join so you have
      >someone to shoot at is not what WE are about. We'll (read our unit)come
      >as British highlander troops thank you-- Yanks in 1812 didn't get to
      >wear skirts except in Western Virginia on Barn Dance night.

      Actually, if I understand your reference, you are being invited to fight
      along side the British for a change againt the French at Waterloo in 2000.
      Again a responsible, realistic presentation of armed forces seems to me to
      offer only respect for those who fought and died for their causes. To
      suggest that a portrayal by a North American of something other than North
      American is in someway disrespectful is, IMHO a bit thin skinned. But
      then, at the five War of 1812 events I've participated in (I said I was
      relatively new) as a member of the King's forces, respect from the American
      forces was sketchy at best. It's perhaps my imagination, but there seems
      to be precious little respect paid to His Majesty's forces by American
      units that I've seen. Even to the point of an outright snub (refusing to
      offer or return a salute) at a major event. Indeed that perceived attitude
      is the driving reason I wear red a couple times a year. Now I hasten to
      say I've met some wonderful fellows from American reenactment units, but as
      a sweeping generalization...

      >Like Robt. says, if its going to be a fantasy, it at least should be a
      >good one.
      >
      >-Who ever came up with the idea that the US was a French ally during
      >this period? Anyone ever heard of the Quasi-War? The Berlin and Milan
      >decrees hurt the US far more than any orders in council-- The French
      >also siezed Ameriacn ships and made no friends in the process. If the
      >French had anything else workth taking in the Western hemisphere (other
      >than Haiti) that we hadn't bought already, the US woudl have declared
      >war on them as well.

      I suppose it comes to the old "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". You
      thrive on shooting "Lobsterbacks", we thrive on shooting "les goddams".
      Same difference to me. ;-)

      >-The US attacked Pensacola and held it during the War of 1812 because it
      >was held by Spain, a nominal French ally. The US didn't mount an
      >effectual attack on Quebec because they were afraid they'd have to keep
      >it :):).

      By the time of our little war Spain was decidedly NOT a French ally, puppet
      goverments not withstanding. But like you said earlier, it was something
      worth taking.

      >Nuff said-- please stop asking us.

      Understood, I will stop asking the site you work with.

      From: "Roger Fuller" <fullerfamily@...>

      (snip)
      >Oddly enough, the Napoleonic Assoc. in the UK has only had battle
      reenactments on the one real Napoleonic battlefield in Britain, and that was
      at Fishguard!....

      Neat place, wonderful hosts. Lots of good memories from '97.

      >To reenact Napoleonic battles on Napoleonic battlefields, they must, like
      their Nap. comrades in N. America, go elsewhere.

      Or host their own, of which there are more than a few Napoleonic tacticals
      on British soil each year. Fantasy perhaps, but still fun. The difference
      I suppose is that the body of water they have to cross is swimable, while
      ours is a bit more daunting.

      >Napoleonic reenacting: the Rodney Dangerfield of reenacting. (sigh) :^)
      "Gad, Sir!"

      We're working on it, we're working on it! And I hate those little green
      men! (big grin)

      Cheers to all,

      Michael
      Sergent 3e Cie, 21e R�giment

      Michael Mathews -- ITV Specialist
      Winona State University
      Voice: (507) 285-7585 Fax: (507) 280-5568
      ------------------------------
      "Loyalty to pertified opinion never broke a chain
      or freed a human soul" -- Mark Twain
    • probably Lynda and maybe Derek Leopold
      Hello List, I felt the need to add a couple of pennies to this thread.... I must agree with Betsy (but I don t have the guts to agree as STRONGLY :) as she
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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        Hello List,
        I felt the need to add a couple of pennies to this thread....

        I must agree with Betsy (but I don't have the guts to agree as STRONGLY :)
        as she does...) that there seems to be an impression around here that
        Napoleonic is somehow "better" than War of 1812 reenacting...and that's
        something I've encountered HERE on good ol' North American soil...I have a
        great amount of pride in doing War of 1812 AND especially when I get to
        educate some poor ignorant soul about it....Betsy is right about how
        important the War was for the US in forming their identity as a nation; now
        think about how much MORE important it was for the Canadians!!! This was the
        first chance all those Loyalists got to test their mettle against the
        Republicans after the great exodus north, and another chance for both sides
        to AFFIRM their particular bent as far as the monarchy went. Canadians also
        generally take the view that the US was an "invading" force (let's NOT get
        into that one--I'm just *saying* that it's the widely accepted view from a
        Canadian standpoint...we're all *friends* NOW, aren't we???) so ending the
        War with all our territory intact and a not-bad win record for battles was
        really an ego boost to all of us....and still is for some of us!

        I'm sorry to offend any of those Nappy types out there (well, in North
        America at least), but I really have no sympathy for you...there's a
        perfectly good little War to reenact right here on THIS side of the water
        for that very same time period...Imagine if all the Napoleonics joined up to
        War of 1812 reenactment (and I mean CORRECTLY, not as "Observers" as is
        usually the case)! Not only would 1812's numbers skyrocket, but the whole
        thing would come across as more accurate instead of all these big stories
        that Nappies have to concoct as to why they are on a War of 1812 battlefield....

        In a similar vein...it has always amazed me how many Canadians (esp.
        Toronto-types) do US Civil War!!! The reenactment held each year near
        Toronto gets more soldiers than 1812 could ever hope for!!! C'mon
        guys---NOT our war!!!!(Again we could argue the merits of THAT statement but...)

        I guess my point overall is....if you are so interested in history, get
        interested in your OWN history in your OWN backyard! The people you will
        educate about things that happened where THEY live will astound you!!!
        That's one of my greatest rewards for reenacting...when a "civilian" listens
        to me explain something an then is genuinely impressed and says, "Gee, I
        didn't know that! That's pretty cool." It's actually been said by a few
        TEENAGERS, too!

        I would like to hear from Napoleonic reenactors (in North America) as to why
        they chose to do it instead of War of 1812....I'm not sure I'd end up
        changing my mind about you all, but it would be an interesting excercise.

        Cheers to you all,
        Lynda Leopold,
        aka Scrubbietta,
        following the drum of the
        Royal Newfoundland Regiment, Lt Coy
        Harrow, Ontario.
      • NINETY3RD@xxx.xxx
        Hmmm....let s see... I think I will take up .... painting on canvas-- but wait! No, I cannot do that! I will sully the memory of Rembrandt, or Van Gogh or
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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          Hmmm....let's see...
          I think I will take up .... painting on canvas-- but wait! No, I cannot do
          that! I will sully the memory of Rembrandt, or Van Gogh or Whistler!
          And if I do go ahead and paint in any certain "style" I had better only do it
          where the person who founded that style lived! Sacre beaujolais!

          So, then I shall play some for-fun baseball -- no no no! I must not tarnish
          the immortal legend of Babe Ruth or Joe Demaggio, especially by playing in
          some public park instead of in Yankee Stadium or other hallowed ground!

          Aha! I will take up basket weaving....but dear me? How can I do this if I do
          not live exactly where Martha Stewart lives?

          All right, maybe building model airplanes... ack! Horrific! What would Chuck
          Yaegar or the ghosts of Rickenbacker or Billy Bishop think? How dare I "play"
          at the wonder and skill of manned flight?!

          How about if I reenact the English Civil War in Virginia? Or if I reenact the
          battle of Shiloh near Frankfurt, Germany? Or I set up an accurate dark ages
          Norse village outside of Sydney, Australia for a weekend? Or maybe establish
          the headquarters of The Alamo Society in New Jersey?

          And what if I told you all of those latter things have been and are done?

          It's a freakin' ***HOBBY*** folks, and people have every right to participate
          in it in whatever era and national impression they find interesting, no matter
          where they live. If that bothers anyone, then I suggest plastic surgery as
          one's nose is waaaaaaay too long!

          Chin chin,
          Benton
          The Texan, living in California, portraying an 1812/Napoleonic/Crimean British
          Highlander --- SO?
        • Roger Fuller
          ... I do. In New England, (where the AWI began) I am also a RevWar reenactor, a Redcoat (the good guys, remember?) with His Majesty s 40th Regiment, the 2nd
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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            >I guess my point overall is....if you are so interested in history, get
            >interested in your OWN history in your OWN backyard

            I do. In New England, (where the AWI began) I am also a RevWar reenactor, a
            Redcoat (the good guys, remember?) with His Majesty's 40th Regiment, the 2nd
            Light Infantry Battalion, and we are scruffy 1777
            Philadelphia/Germantown/Brandywine campaign types. In New England there were
            also 1812 incidents as well, and I hope to get some other 1812 people in the
            area together to do some events. (so far, not much interest yet, but I'm
            working on it.)

            Unfortunately, the 3/95th was not up here, but what the heck- they were
            everywhere else....( see my previous post!)

            >I would like to hear from Napoleonic reenactors (in North America) as to
            why
            >they chose to do it instead of War of 1812....I'm not sure I'd end up
            >changing my mind about you all, but it would be an interesting excercise.

            Some of us actually do both with the same unit! The two scenes should not be
            mutually exclusive and jealous of one another. Both complement each other
            nicely, IMHO. I am on this list to try and learn more about the American
            War, as it was known in Europe.

            As a King said a few years ago, "Can't we all just get along?"....
            >
            >Cheers to you all,
            >Lynda Leopold,
            >aka Scrubbietta,
            >following the drum of the
            >Royal Newfoundland Regiment, Lt Coy
            >Harrow, Ontario.


            Otay, Scrubbietta!

            RF
            3/95th
          • Rob Taylor
            Hello probably Lynda and maybe Derek Leopold: you wrote: In a similar vein...it has always amazed me how many Canadians (esp.Toronto-types) do US Civil War!!!
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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              Hello probably Lynda and maybe Derek Leopold:
              you wrote:
              In a similar vein...it has always amazed me how many
              Canadians (esp.Toronto-types) do US Civil War!!! The reenactment held
              each year near Toronto gets more soldiers than 1812 could ever hope
              for!!! C'mon guys---NOT our war!!!!(Again we could argue the merits
              of THAT statement but...)

              Canadians in the American Civil War
              It is estimated that between 40,000 to 50,000 Canadians took part in
              the American Civil War. One such fellow was Private Jerry Cronan who
              died of wounds sufferred in the Battle of Spotsylvania. He is the only
              Canadian buried in Arlington National Cemetery. A member of the
              Confederate army, he was buried at Arlington shortly before it became
              a cemetery for Union soldiers.

              Rob Taylor

              ==
              War of 1812 Website: http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/
            • Rob Taylor
              Hello probably Lynda and maybe Derek Leopold: you wrote: In a similar vein...it has always amazed me how many Canadians (esp.Toronto-types) do US Civil War!!!
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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                Hello probably Lynda and maybe Derek Leopold:
                you wrote:
                In a similar vein...it has always amazed me how many
                Canadians (esp.Toronto-types) do US Civil War!!! The reenactment held
                each year near Toronto gets more soldiers than 1812 could ever hope
                for!!! C'mon guys---NOT our war!!!!(Again we could argue the merits
                of THAT statement but...)

                Canadians in the American Civil War
                It is estimated that between 40,000 to 50,000 Canadians took part in
                the American Civil War. One such fellow was Private Jerry Cronan who
                died of wounds sufferred in the Battle of Spotsylvania. He is the only
                Canadian buried in Arlington National Cemetery. A member of the
                Confederate army, he was buried at Arlington shortly before it became
                a cemetery for Union soldiers.

                Rob Taylor

                ==
                War of 1812 Website: http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/
              • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                In a message dated 3/1/99 4:30:21 PM Central Standard Time, mmathews@VAX2.WINONA.MSUS.EDU writes:
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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                  In a message dated 3/1/99 4:30:21 PM Central Standard Time,
                  mmathews@... writes:

                  << I guess my philosophy is that a bunch of properly attired, safe reenactors
                  from the same time line would/should be welcome. Bit of the "brothers (and
                  sisters in our case) in arms" thing. But there are many things in the
                  reenacting world I don't understand, just being at it for a comparatively
                  short time (7 years). Like why there are often eight units of eight men
                  each, rather than one real unit of 64? But that's the topic of another
                  discussion. I was planning to introduce this topic of French involvement
                  at some point, but wanted to get the feel of the list first. But to
                  paraphrase, "the eggs are broken, so let's make an omelet!" ;-) >>

                  Nicely put Mike, As you are no doubt aware the 200th anniversary events in
                  Europe are incredibly authentic. They will not even permit women who can be
                  recognized as such in the ranks and an 1803 habit vest may not be worn at a
                  1799 event (even though to the uninitiated there is no difference). However
                  for the every day events we are more than happy to accommodate units that want
                  to join in.

                  As you may well be aware the New Orleans event in January would welcome some
                  French participation as one of the local militia units obtained its kit from
                  France. Basically to accurately represent Plauche's Uniformed Battalion all
                  you need are shako covers, well to be strictly accurate a change of buttons
                  too but I think the NPS would let that pass.

                  Cheers

                  Tim
                • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
                  In a message dated 3/1/99 5:13:34 PM Central Standard Time, leopold@MNSi.Net writes:
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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                    In a message dated 3/1/99 5:13:34 PM Central Standard Time, leopold@...
                    writes:

                    << I would like to hear from Napoleonic reenactors (in North America) as to
                    why
                    they chose to do it instead of War of 1812....I'm not sure I'd end up
                    changing my mind about you all, but it would be an interesting excercise. >>

                    Well I do both, because it IS my heritage. It is also the heritage of every
                    member of the Empire at that time. British 'Napoleonic' units turned up in the
                    Americas some did many rotations. 7th Foot came over to take Sugar Islands
                    from the French, went back to fight in the Peninsula and then were back in
                    America in 1814-15.

                    If you will forgive me it does seem a bit arrogant to suggest that an re-
                    enactor 'shouldn't ' take an interest in anything other than what happened in
                    his own back yard. If that is the case I am guilty, I didn't like re-enacting
                    the ECW so I was one of those who started Napoleonics, and I was in ENGLAND.
                    Know what NO Napoleonic battles were fought there ut I didn't care! That was
                    the period I loved and eventually I ended up in Europe on the fields (playing
                    Wellington at Waterloo!)

                    No one is suggesting that we should pretend the French fought in the war of
                    1812 but how far down that road do you want to go? There should be no US
                    infantry and no British at Mississenewa, only US Dragoons and Indians.

                    Personally I want to see as many people as possible joining in all the events
                    and changing what is nessasary(on the uniform side) to make it as accurate as
                    possible. If you dont want to take part so be it! Just make sure that you only
                    turn up to events on sites where your unit was present.

                    Coco Pops

                    Tim
                  • Roger Fuller
                    ... One of the perpetually outnumbered Riflemen said to his file partner at the Battle of Tarbes upon seeing multitudes of French infantry standing before them
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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                      >>Napoleonic reenacting: the Rodney Dangerfield of reenacting. (sigh) :^)
                      >"Gad, Sir!"
                      >
                      >We're working on it, we're working on it! And I hate those little green
                      >men! (big grin)
                      >
                      >Cheers to all,
                      >
                      >Michael
                      >Sergent 3e Cie, 21e R�giment


                      One of the perpetually outnumbered Riflemen said to his file partner at the
                      Battle of Tarbes upon seeing multitudes of French infantry standing before
                      them in endless rows: "So many Frogs- where will we bury them all?"

                      -p. 6 7/8, Lord Throttlebottom,
                      "Musings of a Light Hussar Rocket Cavalry Submajordomo-altern" /:^)

                      RF
                      Cpl
                      1.Coy., 3/95th
                    • mmathews@xxxx.xxxxxx.xxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                      ... I can t imagine where that would be coming from, certainly not from the unit I represent. We respect ALL individuals and groups who undertake to represent
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 2, 1999
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                        >From: probably Lynda and maybe Derek Leopold <leopold@...>
                        >
                        >I must agree with Betsy (but I don't have the guts to agree as STRONGLY :)
                        >as she does...) that there seems to be an impression around here that
                        >Napoleonic is somehow "better" than War of 1812 reenacting...and that's
                        >something I've encountered HERE on good ol' North American soil...

                        I can't imagine where that would be coming from, certainly not from the
                        unit I represent. We respect ALL individuals and groups who undertake to
                        represent the men and women who have been willing to make the ultimate
                        sacrifice. Who put on the uncomfortable clothes, endure the foolish
                        questions, and half to lose half the time when they *know* on that
                        particular *reenactment* day they could win. Please don't mistake
                        regimental pride for a "better than" mentality. There are obviously always
                        going to be some individuals, but don't throw out the baby with the bath
                        water! ;-)

                        I have a
                        >great amount of pride in doing War of 1812 AND especially when I get to
                        >educate some poor ignorant soul about it....(snip)

                        And well you should, it's an honorable portrayal.

                        >I'm sorry to offend any of those Nappy types out there (well, in North
                        >America at least), but I really have no sympathy for you...there's a
                        >perfectly good little War to reenact right here on THIS side of the water
                        >for that very same time period...Imagine if all the Napoleonics joined up to
                        >War of 1812 reenactment (and I mean CORRECTLY, not as "Observers" as is
                        >usually the case)! Not only would 1812's numbers skyrocket, but the whole
                        >thing would come across as more accurate instead of all these big stories
                        >that Nappies have to concoct as to why they are on a War of 1812
                        >battlefield....

                        Perhaps my newness is showing again, have "Nappys" ever gotten to
                        participate in a War of 1812 event? My understanding is that this had not
                        yet happened, so of course predicting public reaction would be pure
                        speculation. Since you specify North American Nappys, have you (or anyone)
                        had a bad experience with someone coming over to play?

                        (snip)
                        >I guess my point overall is....if you are so interested in history, get
                        >interested in your OWN history in your OWN backyard! The people you will
                        >educate about things that happened where THEY live will astound you!!!
                        >That's one of my greatest rewards for reenacting...when a "civilian" listens
                        >to me explain something an then is genuinely impressed and says, "Gee, I
                        >didn't know that! That's pretty cool." It's actually been said by a few
                        >TEENAGERS, too!
                        >
                        >I would like to hear from Napoleonic reenactors (in North America) as to why
                        >they chose to do it instead of War of 1812....I'm not sure I'd end up
                        >changing my mind about you all, but it would be an interesting excercise.

                        For me my interest in European history goes back to before I could heft a
                        musket. There's just so much more of it! But growing up and attending
                        public school my knowledge of the War of 1812 was the USS Constitution and
                        New Orleans. Cool, but nothing on the scale and grandeur of Napoleonic
                        warfare. So with Chandler's "Campaigns of Napoleon" tucked under my arm I
                        took the inexorable path (for me).

                        Now in fairness to me and most everyone I know in our regiment, we all
                        reenact other periods. I do F&I and War of 1812 (shock!), but my first
                        love of history will always be the Napoleonic era. If by an accident of
                        birth that dooms me to frustration then so be it, but not without trying.
                        Others in our group do everthing from F&I to SpanAm to WWII. Most everyone
                        was doing something else first when they fell under the spell.

                        My F&I group never passes on an opportunity to do school days, some of us
                        (me) take leave to go into schools as individual educators. You're right,
                        there is nothing quite like seeing the lights come on in the eyes of a
                        youngster. I suppose that's why I chose education as a career.

                        BUT, sometimes you should do things for yourself. When I was at Waterloo
                        in '95 I can't adequately put into words what it meant to me. To stand
                        forever waiting for the word to move, to feel the mud sucking at my shoes
                        as we marched, to be charged by Prussian uhlans in the flank, to be in the
                        seventh rank of an eight rank column... It gave me, if but for a day, a
                        real sense of what it was to follow the Eagles. Heck, I even scraped some
                        mud of my shoes and put it in a bag to bring home. I hope you can't blame
                        me if I want to recapture a bit of that feeling a couple of times a year.
                        Being an educator, by definition I'm not rich enough to go to Europe more
                        than every few years. ;-)

                        This in now way diminishes my pride in being a U.S. citizen, my willingness
                        to serve my country for real, or my rancor when I see the flag sullied.
                        But when I got to Europe and visited churches 900 years old it was truly a
                        humbling experience. Something more Americans should experience IMHO.

                        Thanks for asking, and thanks for (hopefully) listening.

                        Respectfully yours,
                        Michael

                        Michael Mathews -- ITV Specialist
                        Winona State University
                        Voice: (507) 285-7585 Fax: (507) 280-5568
                        ------------------------------
                        "Loyalty to pertified opinion never broke a chain
                        or freed a human soul" -- Mark Twain
                      • mmathews@xxxx.xxxxxx.xxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                        (snip my original) ... I had heard that about the 99 events. Kind of a pity, but it also helps keep the numbers down and therefore the events more
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 2, 1999
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                          (snip my original)
                          >Nicely put Mike, As you are no doubt aware the 200th anniversary events in
                          >Europe are incredibly authentic. They will not even permit women who can be
                          >recognized as such in the ranks and an 1803 habit vest may not be worn at a
                          >1799 event (even though to the uninitiated there is no difference). However
                          >for the every day events we are more than happy to accommodate units that want
                          >to join in.

                          I had heard that about the '99 events. Kind of a pity, but it also helps
                          keep the numbers down and therefore the events more affordable. Do people
                          here know about the bounties paid for reenactors? Makes renting those
                          coaches to take your unit to Germany (or where ever) possible.

                          >As you may well be aware the New Orleans event in January would welcome some
                          >French participation as one of the local militia units obtained its kit from
                          >France. Basically to accurately represent Plauche's Uniformed Battalion all
                          >you need are shako covers, well to be strictly accurate a change of buttons
                          >too but I think the NPS would let that pass.

                          Even with our crowned "N"s on the tails? I have often thought of going,
                          New Orleans being eminantly preferable to Minnesota in winter. We have
                          shako covers, but they all have a big "21" on them. Perhaps we'll need to
                          talk more as it nears.

                          Thanks,
                          Michael

                          Michael Mathews -- ITV Specialist
                          Winona State University
                          Voice: (507) 285-7585 Fax: (507) 280-5568
                          ------------------------------
                          "Loyalty to pertified opinion never broke a chain
                          or freed a human soul" -- Mark Twain
                        • Allan and Rosemary
                          ... Tim, I have to disagree with you there about the authenticity of the 200th anniversary events in Europe. At Fishguard, the European units turned up in
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 2, 1999
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                            BritcomHMP@... wrote:
                            >
                            > From: BritcomHMP@...
                            > >
                            > Nicely put Mike, As you are no doubt aware the 200th anniversary events in
                            > Europe are incredibly authentic. They will not even permit women who can be
                            > recognized as such in the ranks and an 1803 habit vest may not be worn at a
                            > 1799 event (even though to the uninitiated there is no difference). However
                            > for the every day events we are more than happy to accommodate units that want
                            > to join in.

                            Tim, I have to disagree with you there about the authenticity of the
                            200th anniversary events in Europe. At Fishguard, the European units
                            turned up in period kit for 1797 - the British re-enactors mostly wore
                            what they normally wore, including 1815 uniforms, and I believe the same
                            happened at Malta last year. I know that in the end the time period had
                            to be expanded to 1803 to allow for the stovepipe shakos that most of
                            the Brits wear. At Fishguard I overheard someone ask 'What uniform are
                            they wearing?' on seeing our 1797 kit, and hearing Trevor Horn of the
                            Royal Artillery Band reply 'That's the correct uniform for this period'
                            - that's how rare the period uniform was at the event! And another
                            regiment asked 'Would our regiment have worn a uniform like that?'! I
                            don't think it even occurred to them that their uniform had changed,
                            ever! And I think that even you would have to admit that Waterloo is a
                            bit of a free for all!;-)

                            As for the subject of War of 1812 vs Napoleonic we tried to start a War
                            of 1812 society in the UK, with the 23rd Foot changing to US uniforms
                            for the purpose. The only interest we got was a British regiment asking
                            us to double as French at one of their events, and someone else telling
                            us to sell the idea of the US uniform by saying that it could double as
                            Belgian for Waterloo, which made the whole exercise pointless! So I
                            agree with Betsy on that point.

                            I think that banning a type of event from a site because 'it never
                            happened there' is extreme. We have been refused events at sites because
                            Napoleonic 'isn't in keeping with the period of the site' (CADW - who
                            own many of Wales's castles is one of the main culprits here) which is
                            almost like denying that a particular period of history ever existed!
                            And yet other sites like Battle Abbey has had anything from Romans to
                            World War 2 fighting on it with great success! I don't believe in mixing
                            periods - I saw a Napoleonic regiment fighting an American Civil War
                            unit at an event last year which looked ridiculous- but I don't see
                            anything wrong with keeping theatres of war separate, and as many people
                            belong to one or more groups anyway, is it such a hardship to acquire
                            another uniform (or adaptations) to do an event properly? If we were
                            able to attend an 1812 event in America we would not feel happy
                            attending as the 23rd Foot and would change our uniform accordingly, as
                            we have done when an event has called for it. There is, I feel, a
                            difference between a regiment not being present at a battle, and not
                            being present on an entire continent!

                            One last thought and some extreme examples:
                            If you were re-enacting the Normandy landings of 1944, how would you
                            explain a group of Japanese soldiers on the battlefield - observers? Or
                            Sepoys at Quebec 1759? Or a Royal Artillery Elephant Battery at Yorktown
                            1781? Hey, now that's an idea! ;-))) But you see my point - armies of
                            the same periods, but different theatres of war.

                            Ducking for cover
                            Rosemary Jones

                            BTW - have you seen the size of a flashlight that takes an elephant
                            battery?
                          • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
                            In a message dated 3/2/99 11:06:18 AM Central Standard Time, mmathews@VAX2.WINONA.MSUS.EDU writes:
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 2, 1999
                            • 0 Attachment
                              In a message dated 3/2/99 11:06:18 AM Central Standard Time,
                              mmathews@... writes:

                              << Even with our crowned "N"s on the tails? I have often thought of going,
                              New Orleans being eminantly preferable to Minnesota in winter. We have
                              shako covers, but they all have a big "21" on them. Perhaps we'll need to
                              talk more as it nears. >>

                              I suppose that they could be explained away by being newly arrived from France
                              at a deep discount because the King is trying to get rid of everything to do
                              with Nap. :-)

                              Of course of you come as Grenadiers just cut out a felt grenade and stitch it
                              over the 'N'. Although we know that Plauche's Battn had Fusiliers, Grenadiers
                              and Chasseurs there is no actual example (other than possibly 2 wrecked
                              shakos) surviving. Not only that all the orders were, of course, given in
                              French!

                              Cheers

                              Tim
                            • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
                              In a message dated 3/2/99 1:18:54 PM Central Standard Time, allan@lightbob.freeserve.co.uk writes:
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 2, 1999
                              • 0 Attachment
                                In a message dated 3/2/99 1:18:54 PM Central Standard Time,
                                allan@... writes:

                                << Tim, I have to disagree with you there about the authenticity of the
                                200th anniversary events in Europe. At Fishguard, the European units
                                turned up in period kit for 1797 - the British re-enactors mostly wore
                                what they normally wore, including 1815 uniforms, and I believe the same
                                happened at Malta last year. I know that in the end the time period had
                                to be expanded to 1803 to allow for the stovepipe shakos that most of
                                the Brits wear. At Fishguard I overheard someone ask 'What uniform are
                                they wearing?' on seeing our 1797 kit, and hearing Trevor Horn of the
                                Royal Artillery Band reply 'That's the correct uniform for this period'
                                - that's how rare the period uniform was at the event! And another
                                regiment asked 'Would our regiment have worn a uniform like that?'! I
                                don't think it even occurred to them that their uniform had changed,
                                ever! And I think that even you would have to admit that Waterloo is a
                                bit of a free for all!;-)
                                >>

                                Rosemary, thank you sooooooo much for muddying the waters! :-)

                                I was actually referring to the rules used by the European Union of Re-
                                enactment Societies and I was very careful to state for 200th Anniversary
                                events which will only include Waterloo in 2015.
                                Now I am quite aware that the general view of the British re-enactor is "I've
                                worn this for the last 10 years, why should I get a new one?" But there are
                                those of us who have fought the uphill battle to try to get correct kit used.

                                The fact that some units might turn up incorrectly attired has to be faced and
                                if no one is going to put out the info beforehand or tell people that (for a
                                particularly important event) "Sorry you can't take part dressed like that",
                                then one must expect people to take liberties.

                                Cheers

                                Tim
                              • Allan and Rosemary
                                ... Oops! Sorry Tim. I quite agree with you. When Malta was first discussed the Europeans insisted on only 1798 kit but after a few British units threatened to
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 2, 1999
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  BritcomHMP@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > From: BritcomHMP@...
                                  > >
                                  > Rosemary, thank you sooooooo much for muddying the waters! :-)
                                  >
                                  > I was actually referring to the rules used by the European Union of Re-
                                  > enactment Societies and I was very careful to state for 200th Anniversary
                                  > events which will only include Waterloo in 2015.
                                  > Now I am quite aware that the general view of the British re-enactor is "I've
                                  > worn this for the last 10 years, why should I get a new one?" But there are
                                  > those of us who have fought the uphill battle to try to get correct kit used.
                                  >
                                  > The fact that some units might turn up incorrectly attired has to be faced and
                                  > if no one is going to put out the info beforehand or tell people that (for a
                                  > particularly important event) "Sorry you can't take part dressed like that",
                                  > then one must expect people to take liberties.
                                  >
                                  > Cheers
                                  >
                                  > Tim
                                  >
                                  Oops! Sorry Tim. I quite agree with you. When Malta was first discussed
                                  the Europeans insisted on only 1798 kit but after a few British units
                                  threatened to boycott the event the rules were relaxed. You know how I
                                  feel about the NA and their lack of co-operation on these events is
                                  shameful. We feel nothing but admiration for the Europeans and their
                                  policy for following the timeline. We did some filming with one of the
                                  these units (and shamefully I've forgotten their name) and they told us
                                  how they were planning to change their uniforms to suit each anniversary
                                  battle - how many British re-enactors will say that! That's why I
                                  emphasised the point that WE changed our kit, so why couldn't others? As
                                  you say, it's an uphill struggle but everyone knew well in advance that
                                  these events were coming up, so what was the excuse?

                                  Tim, all I can say is sorry if I confused things but 'Keep fighting the
                                  Good Fight!'

                                  Rosemary
                                • probably Lynda and maybe Derek Leopold
                                  Hi List, Methinks the worms have escaped from the can I opened.... Perhaps I should add that I don t actually disrespect ANYONE in the re-enactment hobby for
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 2, 1999
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi List,
                                    Methinks the worms have escaped from the can I opened....

                                    Perhaps I should add that I don't actually disrespect ANYONE in the
                                    re-enactment hobby for doing something that I PERSONALLY think isn't
                                    "appropriate". My nose is not so long that I feel ONLY North Am. wars
                                    should be portrayed on NA soil....it's just that, as Rob H put it, too, War
                                    of 1812 needs all the help it can get and I think a large group of
                                    accurately-uniformed soldiers makes for a much better public impression.
                                    Call it an inferiority complex if you will. I still feel that somehow,
                                    Napoleonic guys or groups feel "their" war should automatically be OK and
                                    accepted at War of 1812 sites because it was bigger and "more important" in
                                    a global perspective. Also, although I can claim experience at only two
                                    Napoleonic events in N.A. (mea culpa---our unit DID go as
                                    themselves...RNR---nowhere near Wellington at anytime...but these ones were
                                    billed as Napoleonic-era events as opposed to actual recreations of
                                    Napoleonic War battles), it seems people who do Napoleonic usually portray
                                    officers and the like--all very glamourous when you get to put on all that
                                    gold trim and feathers, etc. It just doesn't seem to FIT at a War of 1812
                                    event to have all those officer-types wandering around, where, IMHO, things
                                    should be a little "grimier" or "less flamboyant" for a good overall
                                    picture. North America was, at the time, afterall akin to the MOON.

                                    OK---I would also like to make clear that I did not mean to *ruffle* any
                                    of those feathers, either!!! I put my thoughts on the subject out into the
                                    ether and certainly meant no offense to any person out there. This list
                                    contains one hell of a lot of pride...and I think we need to tone that down
                                    a little if any discussions of thoughts or ideals is to take place. We can
                                    all joke, but then, when an opinion comes across that you don't like, and
                                    you spray sarcasm across the screen like caustic acid, it's a big turn-off.
                                    TIme and time again, it's been said...we are all FRIENDS here----the 1812
                                    hobby needs as much support as it can get and cutting off our own noses does
                                    nothing for us. I myself promise to read a posting and then breathe deeply
                                    once or twice, read it again, breathe some more, and TRY not to reply in a
                                    manner that is overly insulting to anyone. People's ideas and opinions AND
                                    pride in their own hobbies/units should be welcome here, but the petty
                                    sarcasm isn't really necessary to get that across, is it? Maybe the long
                                    winter away from gunpowder has gotten us ALL a little edgy...

                                    BTW---I DID know about the tens of thousands of Canucks who fought
                                    and died for the US armies during ACW. I just added the thought because it
                                    is the same symptom of the "War of When???" disease we have here in Canada.
                                    I'd wager more people up here would recognize Lee or Sherman or Grant before
                                    the venerable Sir Brock.
                                    Alright, that's enough outta me....

                                    Lynda Leopold
                                    aka Scrubbietta,
                                    following the drum of the
                                    Royal Newfoundland Regiment, Lt Coy,
                                    Harrow Ontario
                                  • NINETY3RD@xxx.xxx
                                    Aha! OK, so I was starting to wonder, just what some folk meant when they kept saying Napoleonic reenactors. I wondered if it meant those portraying French,
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 3, 1999
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                                      Aha!

                                      OK, so I was starting to wonder, just what some folk meant when they kept
                                      saying "Napoleonic" reenactors. I wondered if it meant those portraying
                                      French, or Prussian, or maybe someone doing a Brit unit that never served in
                                      North America during the time period.

                                      But it appears it means any who ALSO do Napoleonic as well as 1812.

                                      As I am one of those who wears "feathers" (hmmm...Highlander, not many others
                                      wore many feathers if one does not count plumes and hackles on shakos) and,
                                      well, it ain't "gold" trim (it's silver in our regiment but it's the idea
                                      anyway) I suppose I should point out (for those who never bother to travel to
                                      New Orleans - an 1812 event, by the way and don't get me started on that
                                      discussion again - the unit we portray, and I point out WE (as in plural, it
                                      ain't just me in *my* feathers and trim) as in the 93rd SHRoFLHU, was indeed
                                      at this particular 1812 battle. There was a 2nd battalion stationed in
                                      Newfoundland during this 1812 conflict as well.

                                      As for all of us who "do" Napoleonic usually being officers (our 20 odd 93rd
                                      members may take exception to that, as would all those in the ranks in the
                                      French units, the 95th, the new 42nd, etc), I can only surmise this means one
                                      or two other persons who portray general staff. Well! We all know there was
                                      no such thing as general staff in the 1812 war, yes? And I mean anyhow, how
                                      could a staff uniform worn of the type in Europe ever be used over here? I
                                      mean, there would be the 1812 general staff uniform instead of the Napoleonic
                                      general staff uniform wouldn't there? (someone quick misinterpret that last
                                      sarcastic one and tell me in serious detail how I have botched it...). But I
                                      wonder what British officers *should* be wearing at an 1812 event. I guess I
                                      just have not seen the Osprey book on 1812 British officer uniforms as opposed
                                      to Napoleonic British officer uniforms. Oooooo! I know! They don't have mud
                                      and dirt in Europe! That's it! Silly me!

                                      Well. (he said with jam on his face and rolly polly tummy) I think the next
                                      time we all go to Mississinewa we all should go ONLY as those who actually
                                      fought that battle. Hey -- I can still wear my feathers! I just need to stick
                                      them in my hair and paint half my face vermilion and wear a breechclout!
                                      That'll also be the hairiest Native anyone has ever seen! Someone quick
                                      inform Martin of our decision! He'll really be thrilled!

                                      OK, Larry, your poem was the best answer so far-- and I'll try to behave and
                                      play nice with the other children now.

                                      Benton - I am a sarcastic SOB so get over it - Jennings
                                      http://hometown.aol.com/ninety3rd
                                    • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
                                      In a message dated 3/3/99 9:00:43 AM Central Standard Time, NINETY3RD@aol.com writes:
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Mar 3, 1999
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        In a message dated 3/3/99 9:00:43 AM Central Standard Time, NINETY3RD@...
                                        writes:

                                        << As for all of us who "do" Napoleonic usually being officers (our 20 odd
                                        93rd
                                        members may take exception to that, as would all those in the ranks in the
                                        French units, the 95th, the new 42nd, etc), I can only surmise this means one
                                        or two other persons who portray general staff. Well! We all know there was
                                        no such thing as general staff in the 1812 war, yes? And I mean anyhow, how
                                        could a staff uniform worn of the type in Europe ever be used over here? I
                                        mean, there would be the 1812 general staff uniform instead of the Napoleonic
                                        general staff uniform wouldn't there? >>


                                        Quite Benton, I was beginning to wonder if actually being able to turn out in
                                        various orders of dress was not the norm in the war of 1812. I personally
                                        turned out in at Missisenewa in undress Staff uniform on Saturday, embroidered
                                        full dress coat with stockings and shoes for the dance and then blue frock
                                        coat when the weather turned nasty next day. Perhaps this kind of variation is
                                        considered too ' Napoleonic'.

                                        But then there were you with trews for the battle and kilt in the evening.
                                        Oooo too Napoleonic for words! ;-)


                                        Cheers

                                        Tim
                                      • Larry Lozon
                                        ... Your Grace: Great for mucking about on your estate. But when engaging the enemy, your finest, Sir. Crimson, gold, danglies, boots, my God man, a member of
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Mar 3, 1999
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          >and then blue frock coat.<

                                          Your Grace: Great for mucking about
                                          on your estate. But when engaging the
                                          enemy, your finest, Sir. Crimson, gold,
                                          danglies, boots, my God man, a member
                                          of the aristocracy.

                                          Your Humble servant
                                          Larry Lozon
                                          PS: excuse me I got carried away!

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: BritcomHMP@... <BritcomHMP@...>
                                          To: WarOf1812@onelist.com <WarOf1812@onelist.com>
                                          Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 10:39 AM
                                          Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: 1812 vs Napoleonic events


                                          >From: BritcomHMP@...
                                          >
                                          >In a message dated 3/3/99 9:00:43 AM Central Standard Time,
                                          NINETY3RD@...
                                          >writes:
                                          >
                                          ><< As for all of us who "do" Napoleonic usually being officers (our 20 odd
                                          >93rd
                                          > members may take exception to that, as would all those in the ranks in the
                                          > French units, the 95th, the new 42nd, etc), I can only surmise this means
                                          one
                                          > or two other persons who portray general staff. Well! We all know there
                                          was
                                          > no such thing as general staff in the 1812 war, yes? And I mean anyhow,
                                          how
                                          > could a staff uniform worn of the type in Europe ever be used over here? I
                                          > mean, there would be the 1812 general staff uniform instead of the
                                          Napoleonic
                                          > general staff uniform wouldn't there? >>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >Quite Benton, I was beginning to wonder if actually being able to turn out
                                          in
                                          >various orders of dress was not the norm in the war of 1812. I personally
                                          >turned out in at Missisenewa in undress Staff uniform on Saturday,
                                          embroidered
                                          >full dress coat with stockings and shoes for the dance and then blue frock
                                          >coat when the weather turned nasty next day. Perhaps this kind of variation
                                          is
                                          >considered too ' Napoleonic'.
                                          >
                                          >But then there were you with trews for the battle and kilt in the evening.
                                          >Oooo too Napoleonic for words! ;-)
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >Cheers
                                          >
                                          >Tim
                                          >
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