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1812 vs Napoleonic events

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  • Betsy Bashore
    I recieved an email inquiring about events at the site where I work from a napoleonic group. When I replied that our 1812 era events are not open to
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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      I recieved an email inquiring about events at the site where I work from
      a napoleonic group. When I replied that our 1812 era events are not
      open to Napoleonic soldiers, some offense was taken. I feel truly sorry
      for the Napoleonic bunch-- that there aren't that many real battlefields
      to use-- that your "battlefields" are across the atlantic, and that the
      1812 U.S. troops seem to take so much exception to being asked to be
      French or Belgian. So perhaps I can clarify the opinion of our Unit
      (19th U.S. Langhams Co.)

      -We are not Belgian or French and if we come to a napoleonic event we
      will make correct/appropriate unifroms and attire for the Napoleonic
      War. We expect the same from Napoleonic reenactors wanting to come to
      US/Canadian War of 1812-15 events. Attending as observers or "allies"
      just doesn't work for us, though the British reenactment groups have a
      greater latitude (even historically) to permit this. If you want to play
      in N America at 1812 sites as a Frenchman, do a Chausseur de Brittanique
      role (or whatever its called).

      -The War of 1812 represents a period in U.S. history that, while less
      understood today, played an important role in U.S. development. And
      real people died there-- And we represent them through our actions. I
      feel that a ficticious battle on ground where U.S. and
      British/Canandians died is quite an insult to all involved, including
      the NA soldiers representing folks who died in Europe-- Not that its not
      fun and all, but realize that asking US troops to join so you have
      someone to shoot at is not what WE are about. We'll (read our unit)come
      as British highlander troops thank you-- Yanks in 1812 didn't get to
      wear skirts except in Western Virginia on Barn Dance night.

      Like Robt. says, if its going to be a fantasy, it at least should be a
      good one.

      -Who ever came up with the idea that the US was a French ally during
      this period? Anyone ever heard of the Quasi-War? The Berlin and Milan
      decrees hurt the US far more than any orders in council-- The French
      also siezed Ameriacn ships and made no friends in the process. If the
      French had anything else workth taking in the Western hemisphere (other
      than Haiti) that we hadn't bought already, the US woudl have declared
      war on them as well.

      -The US attacked Pensacola and held it during the War of 1812 because it
      was held by Spain, a nominal French ally. The US didn't mount an
      effectual attack on Quebec because they were afraid they'd have to keep
      it :):).

      Nuff said-- please stop asking us.

      Betsy (and Robt. who won't type but will comment)
    • mmathews@xxxx.xxxxxx.xxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      ... Since I am the person in question, please understand no offense was taken. More of a sigh of disappointment. It s such a nice looking place. I feel
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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        >From: Betsy Bashore <bashore@...>
        >
        >I recieved an email inquiring about events at the site where I work from
        >a napoleonic group. When I replied that our 1812 era events are not
        >open to Napoleonic soldiers, some offense was taken.

        Since I am the person in question, please understand no offense was taken.
        More of a "sigh" of disappointment. It's such a nice looking place.

        I feel truly sorry
        >for the Napoleonic bunch-- that there aren't that many real battlefields
        >to use-- that your "battlefields" are across the atlantic, and that the
        >1812 U.S. troops seem to take so much exception to being asked to be
        >French or Belgian. So perhaps I can clarify the opinion of our Unit
        >(19th U.S. Langhams Co.)
        >
        >-We are not Belgian or French and if we come to a napoleonic event we
        >will make correct/appropriate unifroms and attire for the Napoleonic
        >War. We expect the same from Napoleonic reenactors wanting to come to
        >US/Canadian War of 1812-15 events. Attending as observers or "allies"
        >just doesn't work for us, though the British reenactment groups have a
        >greater latitude (even historically) to permit this. If you want to play
        >in N America at 1812 sites as a Frenchman, do a Chausseur de Brittanique
        >role (or whatever its called).

        This seems to be a U.S. or perhaps North American sentiment. When at
        Waterloo in '95 the fact that Hougemont was defended by Russian Jagers
        didn't bother me, or that Austrians appeared in force with the Prussians.
        At Fishquard in '97 our French unit fought along "Hoch und Deutschmeister"
        against the British, but no one seemed to object. At least to my knowledge
        all were welcome regardless of whether they were there or not.

        I guess my philosophy is that a bunch of properly attired, safe reenactors
        from the same time line would/should be welcome. Bit of the "brothers (and
        sisters in our case) in arms" thing. But there are many things in the
        reenacting world I don't understand, just being at it for a comparatively
        short time (7 years). Like why there are often eight units of eight men
        each, rather than one real unit of 64? But that's the topic of another
        discussion. I was planning to introduce this topic of French involvement
        at some point, but wanted to get the feel of the list first. But to
        paraphrase, "the eggs are broken, so let's make an omelet!" ;-)

        >-The War of 1812 represents a period in U.S. history that, while less
        >understood today, played an important role in U.S. development. And
        >real people died there-- And we represent them through our actions. I
        >feel that a ficticious battle on ground where U.S. and
        >British/Canandians died is quite an insult to all involved, including
        >the NA soldiers representing folks who died in Europe-- Not that its not
        >fun and all, but realize that asking US troops to join so you have
        >someone to shoot at is not what WE are about. We'll (read our unit)come
        >as British highlander troops thank you-- Yanks in 1812 didn't get to
        >wear skirts except in Western Virginia on Barn Dance night.

        Actually, if I understand your reference, you are being invited to fight
        along side the British for a change againt the French at Waterloo in 2000.
        Again a responsible, realistic presentation of armed forces seems to me to
        offer only respect for those who fought and died for their causes. To
        suggest that a portrayal by a North American of something other than North
        American is in someway disrespectful is, IMHO a bit thin skinned. But
        then, at the five War of 1812 events I've participated in (I said I was
        relatively new) as a member of the King's forces, respect from the American
        forces was sketchy at best. It's perhaps my imagination, but there seems
        to be precious little respect paid to His Majesty's forces by American
        units that I've seen. Even to the point of an outright snub (refusing to
        offer or return a salute) at a major event. Indeed that perceived attitude
        is the driving reason I wear red a couple times a year. Now I hasten to
        say I've met some wonderful fellows from American reenactment units, but as
        a sweeping generalization...

        >Like Robt. says, if its going to be a fantasy, it at least should be a
        >good one.
        >
        >-Who ever came up with the idea that the US was a French ally during
        >this period? Anyone ever heard of the Quasi-War? The Berlin and Milan
        >decrees hurt the US far more than any orders in council-- The French
        >also siezed Ameriacn ships and made no friends in the process. If the
        >French had anything else workth taking in the Western hemisphere (other
        >than Haiti) that we hadn't bought already, the US woudl have declared
        >war on them as well.

        I suppose it comes to the old "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". You
        thrive on shooting "Lobsterbacks", we thrive on shooting "les goddams".
        Same difference to me. ;-)

        >-The US attacked Pensacola and held it during the War of 1812 because it
        >was held by Spain, a nominal French ally. The US didn't mount an
        >effectual attack on Quebec because they were afraid they'd have to keep
        >it :):).

        By the time of our little war Spain was decidedly NOT a French ally, puppet
        goverments not withstanding. But like you said earlier, it was something
        worth taking.

        >Nuff said-- please stop asking us.

        Understood, I will stop asking the site you work with.

        From: "Roger Fuller" <fullerfamily@...>

        (snip)
        >Oddly enough, the Napoleonic Assoc. in the UK has only had battle
        reenactments on the one real Napoleonic battlefield in Britain, and that was
        at Fishguard!....

        Neat place, wonderful hosts. Lots of good memories from '97.

        >To reenact Napoleonic battles on Napoleonic battlefields, they must, like
        their Nap. comrades in N. America, go elsewhere.

        Or host their own, of which there are more than a few Napoleonic tacticals
        on British soil each year. Fantasy perhaps, but still fun. The difference
        I suppose is that the body of water they have to cross is swimable, while
        ours is a bit more daunting.

        >Napoleonic reenacting: the Rodney Dangerfield of reenacting. (sigh) :^)
        "Gad, Sir!"

        We're working on it, we're working on it! And I hate those little green
        men! (big grin)

        Cheers to all,

        Michael
        Sergent 3e Cie, 21e R�giment

        Michael Mathews -- ITV Specialist
        Winona State University
        Voice: (507) 285-7585 Fax: (507) 280-5568
        ------------------------------
        "Loyalty to pertified opinion never broke a chain
        or freed a human soul" -- Mark Twain
      • Roger Fuller
        ... Which is precisely why I picked the British Army s 3/95th to help re-create; present not only at the Battle of New Orleans, but also at Waterloo as well as
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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          >From: Betsy Bashore <bashore@...>
          >
          >I recieved an email inquiring about events at the site where I work from
          >a napoleonic group. When I replied that our 1812 era events are not
          >open to Napoleonic soldiers, some offense was taken. I feel truly sorry
          >for the Napoleonic bunch-- that there aren't that many real battlefields
          >to use-- that your "battlefields" are across the atlantic, and that the
          >1812 U.S. troops seem to take so much exception to being asked to be
          >French or Belgian.


          Which is precisely why I picked the British Army's 3/95th to help re-create;
          present not only at the Battle of New Orleans, but also at Waterloo as well
          as in the Peninsula and elsewhere in Europe. And- not doing an American
          unit, we don't have to worry about this stuff. Whew!

          Oddly enough, the Napoleonic Assoc. in the UK has only had battle
          reenactments on the one real Napoleonic battlefield in Britain, and that was
          at Fishguard!....

          To reenact Napoleonic battles on Napoleonic battlefields, they must, like
          their Nap. comrades in N. America, go elsewhere.

          Napoleonic reenacting: the Rodney Dangerfield of reenacting. (sigh) :^)
          "Gad, Sir!"

          RF
          3/95th Foot
        • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
          In a message dated 3/1/99 3:16:52 PM Central Standard Time, bashore@earthlink.net writes:
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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            In a message dated 3/1/99 3:16:52 PM Central Standard Time,
            bashore@... writes:

            << Like Robt. says, if its going to be a fantasy, it at least should be a
            good one. >>

            Forgive me Betsy but is that comment meant to be as insulting as it sounds? If
            you don't want to do Napoleonics fine! If your unit was asked to join in it
            was only out of politeness and if you want your battlefield to remain
            'unsullied' by Frenchmen you are at liberty to keep it so. We have quite a
            lot of people to shoot at thank you, which is why I have had many American
            units asking if they can come to Waterloo in US uniforms. This may be where
            the idea of being Belgians may have come from the suggestion was made so as to
            try to accommodate people who want to do a one off event and not look out of
            place.

            Incidentally Spain was a British ally at the time the US attacked it, not
            French. Those WW1 & 2 types must REALLY tick you off ! :-)

            Cheers

            Tim
          • probably Lynda and maybe Derek Leopold
            Hello List, I felt the need to add a couple of pennies to this thread.... I must agree with Betsy (but I don t have the guts to agree as STRONGLY :) as she
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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              Hello List,
              I felt the need to add a couple of pennies to this thread....

              I must agree with Betsy (but I don't have the guts to agree as STRONGLY :)
              as she does...) that there seems to be an impression around here that
              Napoleonic is somehow "better" than War of 1812 reenacting...and that's
              something I've encountered HERE on good ol' North American soil...I have a
              great amount of pride in doing War of 1812 AND especially when I get to
              educate some poor ignorant soul about it....Betsy is right about how
              important the War was for the US in forming their identity as a nation; now
              think about how much MORE important it was for the Canadians!!! This was the
              first chance all those Loyalists got to test their mettle against the
              Republicans after the great exodus north, and another chance for both sides
              to AFFIRM their particular bent as far as the monarchy went. Canadians also
              generally take the view that the US was an "invading" force (let's NOT get
              into that one--I'm just *saying* that it's the widely accepted view from a
              Canadian standpoint...we're all *friends* NOW, aren't we???) so ending the
              War with all our territory intact and a not-bad win record for battles was
              really an ego boost to all of us....and still is for some of us!

              I'm sorry to offend any of those Nappy types out there (well, in North
              America at least), but I really have no sympathy for you...there's a
              perfectly good little War to reenact right here on THIS side of the water
              for that very same time period...Imagine if all the Napoleonics joined up to
              War of 1812 reenactment (and I mean CORRECTLY, not as "Observers" as is
              usually the case)! Not only would 1812's numbers skyrocket, but the whole
              thing would come across as more accurate instead of all these big stories
              that Nappies have to concoct as to why they are on a War of 1812 battlefield....

              In a similar vein...it has always amazed me how many Canadians (esp.
              Toronto-types) do US Civil War!!! The reenactment held each year near
              Toronto gets more soldiers than 1812 could ever hope for!!! C'mon
              guys---NOT our war!!!!(Again we could argue the merits of THAT statement but...)

              I guess my point overall is....if you are so interested in history, get
              interested in your OWN history in your OWN backyard! The people you will
              educate about things that happened where THEY live will astound you!!!
              That's one of my greatest rewards for reenacting...when a "civilian" listens
              to me explain something an then is genuinely impressed and says, "Gee, I
              didn't know that! That's pretty cool." It's actually been said by a few
              TEENAGERS, too!

              I would like to hear from Napoleonic reenactors (in North America) as to why
              they chose to do it instead of War of 1812....I'm not sure I'd end up
              changing my mind about you all, but it would be an interesting excercise.

              Cheers to you all,
              Lynda Leopold,
              aka Scrubbietta,
              following the drum of the
              Royal Newfoundland Regiment, Lt Coy
              Harrow, Ontario.
            • NINETY3RD@xxx.xxx
              Hmmm....let s see... I think I will take up .... painting on canvas-- but wait! No, I cannot do that! I will sully the memory of Rembrandt, or Van Gogh or
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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                Hmmm....let's see...
                I think I will take up .... painting on canvas-- but wait! No, I cannot do
                that! I will sully the memory of Rembrandt, or Van Gogh or Whistler!
                And if I do go ahead and paint in any certain "style" I had better only do it
                where the person who founded that style lived! Sacre beaujolais!

                So, then I shall play some for-fun baseball -- no no no! I must not tarnish
                the immortal legend of Babe Ruth or Joe Demaggio, especially by playing in
                some public park instead of in Yankee Stadium or other hallowed ground!

                Aha! I will take up basket weaving....but dear me? How can I do this if I do
                not live exactly where Martha Stewart lives?

                All right, maybe building model airplanes... ack! Horrific! What would Chuck
                Yaegar or the ghosts of Rickenbacker or Billy Bishop think? How dare I "play"
                at the wonder and skill of manned flight?!

                How about if I reenact the English Civil War in Virginia? Or if I reenact the
                battle of Shiloh near Frankfurt, Germany? Or I set up an accurate dark ages
                Norse village outside of Sydney, Australia for a weekend? Or maybe establish
                the headquarters of The Alamo Society in New Jersey?

                And what if I told you all of those latter things have been and are done?

                It's a freakin' ***HOBBY*** folks, and people have every right to participate
                in it in whatever era and national impression they find interesting, no matter
                where they live. If that bothers anyone, then I suggest plastic surgery as
                one's nose is waaaaaaay too long!

                Chin chin,
                Benton
                The Texan, living in California, portraying an 1812/Napoleonic/Crimean British
                Highlander --- SO?
              • Roger Fuller
                ... I do. In New England, (where the AWI began) I am also a RevWar reenactor, a Redcoat (the good guys, remember?) with His Majesty s 40th Regiment, the 2nd
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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                  >I guess my point overall is....if you are so interested in history, get
                  >interested in your OWN history in your OWN backyard

                  I do. In New England, (where the AWI began) I am also a RevWar reenactor, a
                  Redcoat (the good guys, remember?) with His Majesty's 40th Regiment, the 2nd
                  Light Infantry Battalion, and we are scruffy 1777
                  Philadelphia/Germantown/Brandywine campaign types. In New England there were
                  also 1812 incidents as well, and I hope to get some other 1812 people in the
                  area together to do some events. (so far, not much interest yet, but I'm
                  working on it.)

                  Unfortunately, the 3/95th was not up here, but what the heck- they were
                  everywhere else....( see my previous post!)

                  >I would like to hear from Napoleonic reenactors (in North America) as to
                  why
                  >they chose to do it instead of War of 1812....I'm not sure I'd end up
                  >changing my mind about you all, but it would be an interesting excercise.

                  Some of us actually do both with the same unit! The two scenes should not be
                  mutually exclusive and jealous of one another. Both complement each other
                  nicely, IMHO. I am on this list to try and learn more about the American
                  War, as it was known in Europe.

                  As a King said a few years ago, "Can't we all just get along?"....
                  >
                  >Cheers to you all,
                  >Lynda Leopold,
                  >aka Scrubbietta,
                  >following the drum of the
                  >Royal Newfoundland Regiment, Lt Coy
                  >Harrow, Ontario.


                  Otay, Scrubbietta!

                  RF
                  3/95th
                • Rob Taylor
                  Hello probably Lynda and maybe Derek Leopold: you wrote: In a similar vein...it has always amazed me how many Canadians (esp.Toronto-types) do US Civil War!!!
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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                    Hello probably Lynda and maybe Derek Leopold:
                    you wrote:
                    In a similar vein...it has always amazed me how many
                    Canadians (esp.Toronto-types) do US Civil War!!! The reenactment held
                    each year near Toronto gets more soldiers than 1812 could ever hope
                    for!!! C'mon guys---NOT our war!!!!(Again we could argue the merits
                    of THAT statement but...)

                    Canadians in the American Civil War
                    It is estimated that between 40,000 to 50,000 Canadians took part in
                    the American Civil War. One such fellow was Private Jerry Cronan who
                    died of wounds sufferred in the Battle of Spotsylvania. He is the only
                    Canadian buried in Arlington National Cemetery. A member of the
                    Confederate army, he was buried at Arlington shortly before it became
                    a cemetery for Union soldiers.

                    Rob Taylor

                    ==
                    War of 1812 Website: http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/
                  • Rob Taylor
                    Hello probably Lynda and maybe Derek Leopold: you wrote: In a similar vein...it has always amazed me how many Canadians (esp.Toronto-types) do US Civil War!!!
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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                      Hello probably Lynda and maybe Derek Leopold:
                      you wrote:
                      In a similar vein...it has always amazed me how many
                      Canadians (esp.Toronto-types) do US Civil War!!! The reenactment held
                      each year near Toronto gets more soldiers than 1812 could ever hope
                      for!!! C'mon guys---NOT our war!!!!(Again we could argue the merits
                      of THAT statement but...)

                      Canadians in the American Civil War
                      It is estimated that between 40,000 to 50,000 Canadians took part in
                      the American Civil War. One such fellow was Private Jerry Cronan who
                      died of wounds sufferred in the Battle of Spotsylvania. He is the only
                      Canadian buried in Arlington National Cemetery. A member of the
                      Confederate army, he was buried at Arlington shortly before it became
                      a cemetery for Union soldiers.

                      Rob Taylor

                      ==
                      War of 1812 Website: http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/
                    • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                      In a message dated 3/1/99 4:30:21 PM Central Standard Time, mmathews@VAX2.WINONA.MSUS.EDU writes:
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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                        In a message dated 3/1/99 4:30:21 PM Central Standard Time,
                        mmathews@... writes:

                        << I guess my philosophy is that a bunch of properly attired, safe reenactors
                        from the same time line would/should be welcome. Bit of the "brothers (and
                        sisters in our case) in arms" thing. But there are many things in the
                        reenacting world I don't understand, just being at it for a comparatively
                        short time (7 years). Like why there are often eight units of eight men
                        each, rather than one real unit of 64? But that's the topic of another
                        discussion. I was planning to introduce this topic of French involvement
                        at some point, but wanted to get the feel of the list first. But to
                        paraphrase, "the eggs are broken, so let's make an omelet!" ;-) >>

                        Nicely put Mike, As you are no doubt aware the 200th anniversary events in
                        Europe are incredibly authentic. They will not even permit women who can be
                        recognized as such in the ranks and an 1803 habit vest may not be worn at a
                        1799 event (even though to the uninitiated there is no difference). However
                        for the every day events we are more than happy to accommodate units that want
                        to join in.

                        As you may well be aware the New Orleans event in January would welcome some
                        French participation as one of the local militia units obtained its kit from
                        France. Basically to accurately represent Plauche's Uniformed Battalion all
                        you need are shako covers, well to be strictly accurate a change of buttons
                        too but I think the NPS would let that pass.

                        Cheers

                        Tim
                      • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
                        In a message dated 3/1/99 5:13:34 PM Central Standard Time, leopold@MNSi.Net writes:
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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                          In a message dated 3/1/99 5:13:34 PM Central Standard Time, leopold@...
                          writes:

                          << I would like to hear from Napoleonic reenactors (in North America) as to
                          why
                          they chose to do it instead of War of 1812....I'm not sure I'd end up
                          changing my mind about you all, but it would be an interesting excercise. >>

                          Well I do both, because it IS my heritage. It is also the heritage of every
                          member of the Empire at that time. British 'Napoleonic' units turned up in the
                          Americas some did many rotations. 7th Foot came over to take Sugar Islands
                          from the French, went back to fight in the Peninsula and then were back in
                          America in 1814-15.

                          If you will forgive me it does seem a bit arrogant to suggest that an re-
                          enactor 'shouldn't ' take an interest in anything other than what happened in
                          his own back yard. If that is the case I am guilty, I didn't like re-enacting
                          the ECW so I was one of those who started Napoleonics, and I was in ENGLAND.
                          Know what NO Napoleonic battles were fought there ut I didn't care! That was
                          the period I loved and eventually I ended up in Europe on the fields (playing
                          Wellington at Waterloo!)

                          No one is suggesting that we should pretend the French fought in the war of
                          1812 but how far down that road do you want to go? There should be no US
                          infantry and no British at Mississenewa, only US Dragoons and Indians.

                          Personally I want to see as many people as possible joining in all the events
                          and changing what is nessasary(on the uniform side) to make it as accurate as
                          possible. If you dont want to take part so be it! Just make sure that you only
                          turn up to events on sites where your unit was present.

                          Coco Pops

                          Tim
                        • Roger Fuller
                          ... One of the perpetually outnumbered Riflemen said to his file partner at the Battle of Tarbes upon seeing multitudes of French infantry standing before them
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 1, 1999
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                            >>Napoleonic reenacting: the Rodney Dangerfield of reenacting. (sigh) :^)
                            >"Gad, Sir!"
                            >
                            >We're working on it, we're working on it! And I hate those little green
                            >men! (big grin)
                            >
                            >Cheers to all,
                            >
                            >Michael
                            >Sergent 3e Cie, 21e R�giment


                            One of the perpetually outnumbered Riflemen said to his file partner at the
                            Battle of Tarbes upon seeing multitudes of French infantry standing before
                            them in endless rows: "So many Frogs- where will we bury them all?"

                            -p. 6 7/8, Lord Throttlebottom,
                            "Musings of a Light Hussar Rocket Cavalry Submajordomo-altern" /:^)

                            RF
                            Cpl
                            1.Coy., 3/95th
                          • mmathews@xxxx.xxxxxx.xxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                            ... I can t imagine where that would be coming from, certainly not from the unit I represent. We respect ALL individuals and groups who undertake to represent
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 2, 1999
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                              >From: probably Lynda and maybe Derek Leopold <leopold@...>
                              >
                              >I must agree with Betsy (but I don't have the guts to agree as STRONGLY :)
                              >as she does...) that there seems to be an impression around here that
                              >Napoleonic is somehow "better" than War of 1812 reenacting...and that's
                              >something I've encountered HERE on good ol' North American soil...

                              I can't imagine where that would be coming from, certainly not from the
                              unit I represent. We respect ALL individuals and groups who undertake to
                              represent the men and women who have been willing to make the ultimate
                              sacrifice. Who put on the uncomfortable clothes, endure the foolish
                              questions, and half to lose half the time when they *know* on that
                              particular *reenactment* day they could win. Please don't mistake
                              regimental pride for a "better than" mentality. There are obviously always
                              going to be some individuals, but don't throw out the baby with the bath
                              water! ;-)

                              I have a
                              >great amount of pride in doing War of 1812 AND especially when I get to
                              >educate some poor ignorant soul about it....(snip)

                              And well you should, it's an honorable portrayal.

                              >I'm sorry to offend any of those Nappy types out there (well, in North
                              >America at least), but I really have no sympathy for you...there's a
                              >perfectly good little War to reenact right here on THIS side of the water
                              >for that very same time period...Imagine if all the Napoleonics joined up to
                              >War of 1812 reenactment (and I mean CORRECTLY, not as "Observers" as is
                              >usually the case)! Not only would 1812's numbers skyrocket, but the whole
                              >thing would come across as more accurate instead of all these big stories
                              >that Nappies have to concoct as to why they are on a War of 1812
                              >battlefield....

                              Perhaps my newness is showing again, have "Nappys" ever gotten to
                              participate in a War of 1812 event? My understanding is that this had not
                              yet happened, so of course predicting public reaction would be pure
                              speculation. Since you specify North American Nappys, have you (or anyone)
                              had a bad experience with someone coming over to play?

                              (snip)
                              >I guess my point overall is....if you are so interested in history, get
                              >interested in your OWN history in your OWN backyard! The people you will
                              >educate about things that happened where THEY live will astound you!!!
                              >That's one of my greatest rewards for reenacting...when a "civilian" listens
                              >to me explain something an then is genuinely impressed and says, "Gee, I
                              >didn't know that! That's pretty cool." It's actually been said by a few
                              >TEENAGERS, too!
                              >
                              >I would like to hear from Napoleonic reenactors (in North America) as to why
                              >they chose to do it instead of War of 1812....I'm not sure I'd end up
                              >changing my mind about you all, but it would be an interesting excercise.

                              For me my interest in European history goes back to before I could heft a
                              musket. There's just so much more of it! But growing up and attending
                              public school my knowledge of the War of 1812 was the USS Constitution and
                              New Orleans. Cool, but nothing on the scale and grandeur of Napoleonic
                              warfare. So with Chandler's "Campaigns of Napoleon" tucked under my arm I
                              took the inexorable path (for me).

                              Now in fairness to me and most everyone I know in our regiment, we all
                              reenact other periods. I do F&I and War of 1812 (shock!), but my first
                              love of history will always be the Napoleonic era. If by an accident of
                              birth that dooms me to frustration then so be it, but not without trying.
                              Others in our group do everthing from F&I to SpanAm to WWII. Most everyone
                              was doing something else first when they fell under the spell.

                              My F&I group never passes on an opportunity to do school days, some of us
                              (me) take leave to go into schools as individual educators. You're right,
                              there is nothing quite like seeing the lights come on in the eyes of a
                              youngster. I suppose that's why I chose education as a career.

                              BUT, sometimes you should do things for yourself. When I was at Waterloo
                              in '95 I can't adequately put into words what it meant to me. To stand
                              forever waiting for the word to move, to feel the mud sucking at my shoes
                              as we marched, to be charged by Prussian uhlans in the flank, to be in the
                              seventh rank of an eight rank column... It gave me, if but for a day, a
                              real sense of what it was to follow the Eagles. Heck, I even scraped some
                              mud of my shoes and put it in a bag to bring home. I hope you can't blame
                              me if I want to recapture a bit of that feeling a couple of times a year.
                              Being an educator, by definition I'm not rich enough to go to Europe more
                              than every few years. ;-)

                              This in now way diminishes my pride in being a U.S. citizen, my willingness
                              to serve my country for real, or my rancor when I see the flag sullied.
                              But when I got to Europe and visited churches 900 years old it was truly a
                              humbling experience. Something more Americans should experience IMHO.

                              Thanks for asking, and thanks for (hopefully) listening.

                              Respectfully yours,
                              Michael

                              Michael Mathews -- ITV Specialist
                              Winona State University
                              Voice: (507) 285-7585 Fax: (507) 280-5568
                              ------------------------------
                              "Loyalty to pertified opinion never broke a chain
                              or freed a human soul" -- Mark Twain
                            • mmathews@xxxx.xxxxxx.xxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                              (snip my original) ... I had heard that about the 99 events. Kind of a pity, but it also helps keep the numbers down and therefore the events more
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 2, 1999
                              • 0 Attachment
                                (snip my original)
                                >Nicely put Mike, As you are no doubt aware the 200th anniversary events in
                                >Europe are incredibly authentic. They will not even permit women who can be
                                >recognized as such in the ranks and an 1803 habit vest may not be worn at a
                                >1799 event (even though to the uninitiated there is no difference). However
                                >for the every day events we are more than happy to accommodate units that want
                                >to join in.

                                I had heard that about the '99 events. Kind of a pity, but it also helps
                                keep the numbers down and therefore the events more affordable. Do people
                                here know about the bounties paid for reenactors? Makes renting those
                                coaches to take your unit to Germany (or where ever) possible.

                                >As you may well be aware the New Orleans event in January would welcome some
                                >French participation as one of the local militia units obtained its kit from
                                >France. Basically to accurately represent Plauche's Uniformed Battalion all
                                >you need are shako covers, well to be strictly accurate a change of buttons
                                >too but I think the NPS would let that pass.

                                Even with our crowned "N"s on the tails? I have often thought of going,
                                New Orleans being eminantly preferable to Minnesota in winter. We have
                                shako covers, but they all have a big "21" on them. Perhaps we'll need to
                                talk more as it nears.

                                Thanks,
                                Michael

                                Michael Mathews -- ITV Specialist
                                Winona State University
                                Voice: (507) 285-7585 Fax: (507) 280-5568
                                ------------------------------
                                "Loyalty to pertified opinion never broke a chain
                                or freed a human soul" -- Mark Twain
                              • Allan and Rosemary
                                ... Tim, I have to disagree with you there about the authenticity of the 200th anniversary events in Europe. At Fishguard, the European units turned up in
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 2, 1999
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  BritcomHMP@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > From: BritcomHMP@...
                                  > >
                                  > Nicely put Mike, As you are no doubt aware the 200th anniversary events in
                                  > Europe are incredibly authentic. They will not even permit women who can be
                                  > recognized as such in the ranks and an 1803 habit vest may not be worn at a
                                  > 1799 event (even though to the uninitiated there is no difference). However
                                  > for the every day events we are more than happy to accommodate units that want
                                  > to join in.

                                  Tim, I have to disagree with you there about the authenticity of the
                                  200th anniversary events in Europe. At Fishguard, the European units
                                  turned up in period kit for 1797 - the British re-enactors mostly wore
                                  what they normally wore, including 1815 uniforms, and I believe the same
                                  happened at Malta last year. I know that in the end the time period had
                                  to be expanded to 1803 to allow for the stovepipe shakos that most of
                                  the Brits wear. At Fishguard I overheard someone ask 'What uniform are
                                  they wearing?' on seeing our 1797 kit, and hearing Trevor Horn of the
                                  Royal Artillery Band reply 'That's the correct uniform for this period'
                                  - that's how rare the period uniform was at the event! And another
                                  regiment asked 'Would our regiment have worn a uniform like that?'! I
                                  don't think it even occurred to them that their uniform had changed,
                                  ever! And I think that even you would have to admit that Waterloo is a
                                  bit of a free for all!;-)

                                  As for the subject of War of 1812 vs Napoleonic we tried to start a War
                                  of 1812 society in the UK, with the 23rd Foot changing to US uniforms
                                  for the purpose. The only interest we got was a British regiment asking
                                  us to double as French at one of their events, and someone else telling
                                  us to sell the idea of the US uniform by saying that it could double as
                                  Belgian for Waterloo, which made the whole exercise pointless! So I
                                  agree with Betsy on that point.

                                  I think that banning a type of event from a site because 'it never
                                  happened there' is extreme. We have been refused events at sites because
                                  Napoleonic 'isn't in keeping with the period of the site' (CADW - who
                                  own many of Wales's castles is one of the main culprits here) which is
                                  almost like denying that a particular period of history ever existed!
                                  And yet other sites like Battle Abbey has had anything from Romans to
                                  World War 2 fighting on it with great success! I don't believe in mixing
                                  periods - I saw a Napoleonic regiment fighting an American Civil War
                                  unit at an event last year which looked ridiculous- but I don't see
                                  anything wrong with keeping theatres of war separate, and as many people
                                  belong to one or more groups anyway, is it such a hardship to acquire
                                  another uniform (or adaptations) to do an event properly? If we were
                                  able to attend an 1812 event in America we would not feel happy
                                  attending as the 23rd Foot and would change our uniform accordingly, as
                                  we have done when an event has called for it. There is, I feel, a
                                  difference between a regiment not being present at a battle, and not
                                  being present on an entire continent!

                                  One last thought and some extreme examples:
                                  If you were re-enacting the Normandy landings of 1944, how would you
                                  explain a group of Japanese soldiers on the battlefield - observers? Or
                                  Sepoys at Quebec 1759? Or a Royal Artillery Elephant Battery at Yorktown
                                  1781? Hey, now that's an idea! ;-))) But you see my point - armies of
                                  the same periods, but different theatres of war.

                                  Ducking for cover
                                  Rosemary Jones

                                  BTW - have you seen the size of a flashlight that takes an elephant
                                  battery?
                                • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
                                  In a message dated 3/2/99 11:06:18 AM Central Standard Time, mmathews@VAX2.WINONA.MSUS.EDU writes:
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 2, 1999
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    In a message dated 3/2/99 11:06:18 AM Central Standard Time,
                                    mmathews@... writes:

                                    << Even with our crowned "N"s on the tails? I have often thought of going,
                                    New Orleans being eminantly preferable to Minnesota in winter. We have
                                    shako covers, but they all have a big "21" on them. Perhaps we'll need to
                                    talk more as it nears. >>

                                    I suppose that they could be explained away by being newly arrived from France
                                    at a deep discount because the King is trying to get rid of everything to do
                                    with Nap. :-)

                                    Of course of you come as Grenadiers just cut out a felt grenade and stitch it
                                    over the 'N'. Although we know that Plauche's Battn had Fusiliers, Grenadiers
                                    and Chasseurs there is no actual example (other than possibly 2 wrecked
                                    shakos) surviving. Not only that all the orders were, of course, given in
                                    French!

                                    Cheers

                                    Tim
                                  • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
                                    In a message dated 3/2/99 1:18:54 PM Central Standard Time, allan@lightbob.freeserve.co.uk writes:
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 2, 1999
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      In a message dated 3/2/99 1:18:54 PM Central Standard Time,
                                      allan@... writes:

                                      << Tim, I have to disagree with you there about the authenticity of the
                                      200th anniversary events in Europe. At Fishguard, the European units
                                      turned up in period kit for 1797 - the British re-enactors mostly wore
                                      what they normally wore, including 1815 uniforms, and I believe the same
                                      happened at Malta last year. I know that in the end the time period had
                                      to be expanded to 1803 to allow for the stovepipe shakos that most of
                                      the Brits wear. At Fishguard I overheard someone ask 'What uniform are
                                      they wearing?' on seeing our 1797 kit, and hearing Trevor Horn of the
                                      Royal Artillery Band reply 'That's the correct uniform for this period'
                                      - that's how rare the period uniform was at the event! And another
                                      regiment asked 'Would our regiment have worn a uniform like that?'! I
                                      don't think it even occurred to them that their uniform had changed,
                                      ever! And I think that even you would have to admit that Waterloo is a
                                      bit of a free for all!;-)
                                      >>

                                      Rosemary, thank you sooooooo much for muddying the waters! :-)

                                      I was actually referring to the rules used by the European Union of Re-
                                      enactment Societies and I was very careful to state for 200th Anniversary
                                      events which will only include Waterloo in 2015.
                                      Now I am quite aware that the general view of the British re-enactor is "I've
                                      worn this for the last 10 years, why should I get a new one?" But there are
                                      those of us who have fought the uphill battle to try to get correct kit used.

                                      The fact that some units might turn up incorrectly attired has to be faced and
                                      if no one is going to put out the info beforehand or tell people that (for a
                                      particularly important event) "Sorry you can't take part dressed like that",
                                      then one must expect people to take liberties.

                                      Cheers

                                      Tim
                                    • Allan and Rosemary
                                      ... Oops! Sorry Tim. I quite agree with you. When Malta was first discussed the Europeans insisted on only 1798 kit but after a few British units threatened to
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Mar 2, 1999
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                                        BritcomHMP@... wrote:
                                        >
                                        > From: BritcomHMP@...
                                        > >
                                        > Rosemary, thank you sooooooo much for muddying the waters! :-)
                                        >
                                        > I was actually referring to the rules used by the European Union of Re-
                                        > enactment Societies and I was very careful to state for 200th Anniversary
                                        > events which will only include Waterloo in 2015.
                                        > Now I am quite aware that the general view of the British re-enactor is "I've
                                        > worn this for the last 10 years, why should I get a new one?" But there are
                                        > those of us who have fought the uphill battle to try to get correct kit used.
                                        >
                                        > The fact that some units might turn up incorrectly attired has to be faced and
                                        > if no one is going to put out the info beforehand or tell people that (for a
                                        > particularly important event) "Sorry you can't take part dressed like that",
                                        > then one must expect people to take liberties.
                                        >
                                        > Cheers
                                        >
                                        > Tim
                                        >
                                        Oops! Sorry Tim. I quite agree with you. When Malta was first discussed
                                        the Europeans insisted on only 1798 kit but after a few British units
                                        threatened to boycott the event the rules were relaxed. You know how I
                                        feel about the NA and their lack of co-operation on these events is
                                        shameful. We feel nothing but admiration for the Europeans and their
                                        policy for following the timeline. We did some filming with one of the
                                        these units (and shamefully I've forgotten their name) and they told us
                                        how they were planning to change their uniforms to suit each anniversary
                                        battle - how many British re-enactors will say that! That's why I
                                        emphasised the point that WE changed our kit, so why couldn't others? As
                                        you say, it's an uphill struggle but everyone knew well in advance that
                                        these events were coming up, so what was the excuse?

                                        Tim, all I can say is sorry if I confused things but 'Keep fighting the
                                        Good Fight!'

                                        Rosemary
                                      • probably Lynda and maybe Derek Leopold
                                        Hi List, Methinks the worms have escaped from the can I opened.... Perhaps I should add that I don t actually disrespect ANYONE in the re-enactment hobby for
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Mar 2, 1999
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                                          Hi List,
                                          Methinks the worms have escaped from the can I opened....

                                          Perhaps I should add that I don't actually disrespect ANYONE in the
                                          re-enactment hobby for doing something that I PERSONALLY think isn't
                                          "appropriate". My nose is not so long that I feel ONLY North Am. wars
                                          should be portrayed on NA soil....it's just that, as Rob H put it, too, War
                                          of 1812 needs all the help it can get and I think a large group of
                                          accurately-uniformed soldiers makes for a much better public impression.
                                          Call it an inferiority complex if you will. I still feel that somehow,
                                          Napoleonic guys or groups feel "their" war should automatically be OK and
                                          accepted at War of 1812 sites because it was bigger and "more important" in
                                          a global perspective. Also, although I can claim experience at only two
                                          Napoleonic events in N.A. (mea culpa---our unit DID go as
                                          themselves...RNR---nowhere near Wellington at anytime...but these ones were
                                          billed as Napoleonic-era events as opposed to actual recreations of
                                          Napoleonic War battles), it seems people who do Napoleonic usually portray
                                          officers and the like--all very glamourous when you get to put on all that
                                          gold trim and feathers, etc. It just doesn't seem to FIT at a War of 1812
                                          event to have all those officer-types wandering around, where, IMHO, things
                                          should be a little "grimier" or "less flamboyant" for a good overall
                                          picture. North America was, at the time, afterall akin to the MOON.

                                          OK---I would also like to make clear that I did not mean to *ruffle* any
                                          of those feathers, either!!! I put my thoughts on the subject out into the
                                          ether and certainly meant no offense to any person out there. This list
                                          contains one hell of a lot of pride...and I think we need to tone that down
                                          a little if any discussions of thoughts or ideals is to take place. We can
                                          all joke, but then, when an opinion comes across that you don't like, and
                                          you spray sarcasm across the screen like caustic acid, it's a big turn-off.
                                          TIme and time again, it's been said...we are all FRIENDS here----the 1812
                                          hobby needs as much support as it can get and cutting off our own noses does
                                          nothing for us. I myself promise to read a posting and then breathe deeply
                                          once or twice, read it again, breathe some more, and TRY not to reply in a
                                          manner that is overly insulting to anyone. People's ideas and opinions AND
                                          pride in their own hobbies/units should be welcome here, but the petty
                                          sarcasm isn't really necessary to get that across, is it? Maybe the long
                                          winter away from gunpowder has gotten us ALL a little edgy...

                                          BTW---I DID know about the tens of thousands of Canucks who fought
                                          and died for the US armies during ACW. I just added the thought because it
                                          is the same symptom of the "War of When???" disease we have here in Canada.
                                          I'd wager more people up here would recognize Lee or Sherman or Grant before
                                          the venerable Sir Brock.
                                          Alright, that's enough outta me....

                                          Lynda Leopold
                                          aka Scrubbietta,
                                          following the drum of the
                                          Royal Newfoundland Regiment, Lt Coy,
                                          Harrow Ontario
                                        • NINETY3RD@xxx.xxx
                                          Aha! OK, so I was starting to wonder, just what some folk meant when they kept saying Napoleonic reenactors. I wondered if it meant those portraying French,
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Mar 3, 1999
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                                            Aha!

                                            OK, so I was starting to wonder, just what some folk meant when they kept
                                            saying "Napoleonic" reenactors. I wondered if it meant those portraying
                                            French, or Prussian, or maybe someone doing a Brit unit that never served in
                                            North America during the time period.

                                            But it appears it means any who ALSO do Napoleonic as well as 1812.

                                            As I am one of those who wears "feathers" (hmmm...Highlander, not many others
                                            wore many feathers if one does not count plumes and hackles on shakos) and,
                                            well, it ain't "gold" trim (it's silver in our regiment but it's the idea
                                            anyway) I suppose I should point out (for those who never bother to travel to
                                            New Orleans - an 1812 event, by the way and don't get me started on that
                                            discussion again - the unit we portray, and I point out WE (as in plural, it
                                            ain't just me in *my* feathers and trim) as in the 93rd SHRoFLHU, was indeed
                                            at this particular 1812 battle. There was a 2nd battalion stationed in
                                            Newfoundland during this 1812 conflict as well.

                                            As for all of us who "do" Napoleonic usually being officers (our 20 odd 93rd
                                            members may take exception to that, as would all those in the ranks in the
                                            French units, the 95th, the new 42nd, etc), I can only surmise this means one
                                            or two other persons who portray general staff. Well! We all know there was
                                            no such thing as general staff in the 1812 war, yes? And I mean anyhow, how
                                            could a staff uniform worn of the type in Europe ever be used over here? I
                                            mean, there would be the 1812 general staff uniform instead of the Napoleonic
                                            general staff uniform wouldn't there? (someone quick misinterpret that last
                                            sarcastic one and tell me in serious detail how I have botched it...). But I
                                            wonder what British officers *should* be wearing at an 1812 event. I guess I
                                            just have not seen the Osprey book on 1812 British officer uniforms as opposed
                                            to Napoleonic British officer uniforms. Oooooo! I know! They don't have mud
                                            and dirt in Europe! That's it! Silly me!

                                            Well. (he said with jam on his face and rolly polly tummy) I think the next
                                            time we all go to Mississinewa we all should go ONLY as those who actually
                                            fought that battle. Hey -- I can still wear my feathers! I just need to stick
                                            them in my hair and paint half my face vermilion and wear a breechclout!
                                            That'll also be the hairiest Native anyone has ever seen! Someone quick
                                            inform Martin of our decision! He'll really be thrilled!

                                            OK, Larry, your poem was the best answer so far-- and I'll try to behave and
                                            play nice with the other children now.

                                            Benton - I am a sarcastic SOB so get over it - Jennings
                                            http://hometown.aol.com/ninety3rd
                                          • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
                                            In a message dated 3/3/99 9:00:43 AM Central Standard Time, NINETY3RD@aol.com writes:
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Mar 3, 1999
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              In a message dated 3/3/99 9:00:43 AM Central Standard Time, NINETY3RD@...
                                              writes:

                                              << As for all of us who "do" Napoleonic usually being officers (our 20 odd
                                              93rd
                                              members may take exception to that, as would all those in the ranks in the
                                              French units, the 95th, the new 42nd, etc), I can only surmise this means one
                                              or two other persons who portray general staff. Well! We all know there was
                                              no such thing as general staff in the 1812 war, yes? And I mean anyhow, how
                                              could a staff uniform worn of the type in Europe ever be used over here? I
                                              mean, there would be the 1812 general staff uniform instead of the Napoleonic
                                              general staff uniform wouldn't there? >>


                                              Quite Benton, I was beginning to wonder if actually being able to turn out in
                                              various orders of dress was not the norm in the war of 1812. I personally
                                              turned out in at Missisenewa in undress Staff uniform on Saturday, embroidered
                                              full dress coat with stockings and shoes for the dance and then blue frock
                                              coat when the weather turned nasty next day. Perhaps this kind of variation is
                                              considered too ' Napoleonic'.

                                              But then there were you with trews for the battle and kilt in the evening.
                                              Oooo too Napoleonic for words! ;-)


                                              Cheers

                                              Tim
                                            • Larry Lozon
                                              ... Your Grace: Great for mucking about on your estate. But when engaging the enemy, your finest, Sir. Crimson, gold, danglies, boots, my God man, a member of
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Mar 3, 1999
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                >and then blue frock coat.<

                                                Your Grace: Great for mucking about
                                                on your estate. But when engaging the
                                                enemy, your finest, Sir. Crimson, gold,
                                                danglies, boots, my God man, a member
                                                of the aristocracy.

                                                Your Humble servant
                                                Larry Lozon
                                                PS: excuse me I got carried away!

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: BritcomHMP@... <BritcomHMP@...>
                                                To: WarOf1812@onelist.com <WarOf1812@onelist.com>
                                                Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 10:39 AM
                                                Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: 1812 vs Napoleonic events


                                                >From: BritcomHMP@...
                                                >
                                                >In a message dated 3/3/99 9:00:43 AM Central Standard Time,
                                                NINETY3RD@...
                                                >writes:
                                                >
                                                ><< As for all of us who "do" Napoleonic usually being officers (our 20 odd
                                                >93rd
                                                > members may take exception to that, as would all those in the ranks in the
                                                > French units, the 95th, the new 42nd, etc), I can only surmise this means
                                                one
                                                > or two other persons who portray general staff. Well! We all know there
                                                was
                                                > no such thing as general staff in the 1812 war, yes? And I mean anyhow,
                                                how
                                                > could a staff uniform worn of the type in Europe ever be used over here? I
                                                > mean, there would be the 1812 general staff uniform instead of the
                                                Napoleonic
                                                > general staff uniform wouldn't there? >>
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >Quite Benton, I was beginning to wonder if actually being able to turn out
                                                in
                                                >various orders of dress was not the norm in the war of 1812. I personally
                                                >turned out in at Missisenewa in undress Staff uniform on Saturday,
                                                embroidered
                                                >full dress coat with stockings and shoes for the dance and then blue frock
                                                >coat when the weather turned nasty next day. Perhaps this kind of variation
                                                is
                                                >considered too ' Napoleonic'.
                                                >
                                                >But then there were you with trews for the battle and kilt in the evening.
                                                >Oooo too Napoleonic for words! ;-)
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >Cheers
                                                >
                                                >Tim
                                                >
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