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Re: 1812 RE: arm across your body salute

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  • Iain Burns
    Hullo Kevin I agree that more research is what we need... the original spark for this question was a question on a Napoleonic Highland Regiment discussion
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 27, 2012
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      Hullo Kevin

      I agree that more research is what we need... the original spark for this question was a question on a Napoleonic Highland Regiment discussion group where the comment was made as to the number of different ways Serjeants were reacting when their units were ordered to Present. None of the ways described had any documentation to back them up. I started asking back in August and got lots of suggestions, but little documentation. Every post seemed to start by saying, "Well, this is what WE do..."

      While your post muddles (or maybe empowers?) things a bit when it describes two different ways of saluting in the same text (the 85th Standing Orders), I also think that you cannot equate giving a report with simply saluting, as in the first there is a known intent to address and officers, and the in the second there is a passing engagement so to speak... so reacting in different ways may be explained.

      I am all for continuing this conversation, even if it documents several different possible actions that are documented to our period. What I am trying to do is to get to SOME documentable method of action for a Serjeant with a Pike when the rest of the unit is called to present, that meets my group's documentation guidelines; that is it must be documentable to our unit first, OR to British Infantry Regiments in our area in the absence of the first; OR to a general practice of the British Army for the period in absence of the first two.

      Aye,
      Iain
    • Kevin Windsor
      Iain, the best I can figure from the manual is to recover arms. Throw the pike to the front in a perpendicular position opposite to the left eye, the right
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 27, 2012
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        Iain, the best I can figure from the manual is to recover arms.



        "Throw the pike to the front in a perpendicular position opposite to the
        left eye, the right hand grasping it at the shoe, which touches the body
        slightly, and the left hand supporting the shaft by holding it opposite the
        left eye between the thumb and fore-finger; the left elbow is in this
        position bent, and risen as high as the left shoulder."





        This is from "A Treatise on the British Drill and Exercise of the Company"
        1816



        Kevin





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mark Dickerson
        The original posting said With arms, and when advanced, upon meeting Officers, the left hand is carried across the body with a smart motion to set the fuzee
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 28, 2012
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          The original posting said "With arms, and when advanced, upon meeting
          Officers, the left hand is carried across the body with a smart motion to
          set the fuzee firm against the shoulder."



          So yes, when at the slope or carry, the left hand doesn't come across the
          body at all, but a sgt usually does carry the pike at the advance, so it
          would be the left hand that comes across assuming that is the situation.



          Mark D



          Original message:

          I respectfully disagree that the left hand across the body came from the
          'slope arms' to 'carry arms' movement as this involves the right hand moving
          across the body, not the left..






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Colonel
          I would like to ask if you are refering to an officer being saluted by a soldier presenting arms to him when you say, ...officers do not present arms. I
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 28, 2012
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            I would like to ask if you are refering to an officer being saluted by a soldier presenting arms to him when you say, "...officers do not present arms." I know from manuals of the 18th century and following that officers are instructed in presenting arms when in line and in formation with the battalion or when marching with eyes left or right. Please clarify for me if officers are not to present arms at all according to some research as I would like to have this straight for future mention. Thank you.

            Tom

            --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "shayna121" <PrivateCannon@...> wrote:
            >
            > Very interesting.
            >
            > Iain and I have been carrying on this converstaion offline, but here are some of the things we've discussed:
            >
            > 1) Officers do not 'present arms.' When their men do so, they salute.
            >
            > 2) To reiterate, no period drill manual yet found has a 'present arms' for Serjeants armed with a pike.
            >
            >
            > 3) This drill manual says Serjeants are to remain at the shoulder during all other movements, but that would still allow them to salute in the manner described in previous converstaions (arm across the body to set the musket or pike firmly into the shoulder). They wouldn't be removing their pike from their shoulder.
            >
            > Do these things suggest that while the rank and file present arms, the Serjeants salute as they would when approaching an officer? The other alternative is that they do nothing, which doesn't quite feel right to me.
            >
            > Also, as this is a drill manual for the pike, can we assume that Serjeants armed with muskets continue to present arms?
            >
            > I'd love to hear others' thoughts.
            >
            > Merry Christmas and Happy Hogmanay,
            >
            > Chris McKay
            >
            > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Iain Burns" <iain51hdbw@> wrote:
            > >
            > > All,
            > that, "Serjeants remain at the shoulder during the performance of the other parts of the exercise...'
            >
            > > Mr. McKay's addition to the conversation re: saluting, taken from the 85th Light Infantry Standing orders book, would therefore only be employed when a Serjeant was rendering proper reverence to an Officer, and not something used when the rest of his group was called to Present. Indeed, the manuals I have seen have a "Salute" for Officers, but again nothing about a special move for Present; to my mind, at least, there is a subtle difference between being called to Present and rendering a Salute, even though one might Salute while others are given the order to Present.
            >
            > >
            > > Aye,
            > > Iain
            > > 1st Royal Scots, No. 3 (Centre) Coy
            >
          • Iain Burns
            Tom, I think you are confusing the terms Present Arms with the Salute , which I (at least) take to have slightly differing connotations in earlier times. I
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 29, 2012
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              Tom,

              I think you are confusing the terms "Present Arms" with the "Salute", which I (at least) take to have slightly differing connotations in earlier times. I have not been able to find a documented command called "Present" for either Serjeants (with Pikes) or Officers for our period (or earlier periods, for that matter), but I have been able to find a command described as "the Salute" used when honours are to be rendered, and yes, when the men are ordered to Present the Officers (at least) Salute.

              If you have documentation you can point me to for either our period or earlier, I'd appreciate the reference. In an earlier email, I posted the link to "The Plan of Discipline for the Norfolk Militia", http://books.google.com/books?id=B0EIAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false , starting on page 23 for the Exercise of Officers.

              The question has not been so simple for the Serjeants, and that is what we are now trying to sort out. Roberts says that the Serjeants keep their Pikes shouldered for any motions not described for them, but it may be that they do something like placing their left hand across the shaft of their Pike as a mark of respect.

              Aye,
              Iain
              I would like to ask if you are refering to an officer being saluted by a soldier presenting arms to him when you say, "...officers do not present arms." I know from manuals of the 18th century and following that officers are instructed in presenting arms when in line and in formation with the battalion or when marching with eyes left or right. Please clarify for me if officers are not to present arms at all according to some research as I would like to have this straight for future mention. Thank you.

              Tom




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • shayna121
              Why would the recover be used as a salute or present arms? Chris
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 29, 2012
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                Why would the recover be used as a salute or present arms?

                Chris

                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Windsor <kevin.windsor@...> wrote:
                >
                > Iain, the best I can figure from the manual is to recover arms.
                >
                >
                >
                > "Throw the pike to the front in a perpendicular position opposite to the
                > left eye, the right hand grasping it at the shoe, which touches the body
                > slightly, and the left hand supporting the shaft by holding it opposite the
                > left eye between the thumb and fore-finger; the left elbow is in this
                > position bent, and risen as high as the left shoulder."
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > This is from "A Treatise on the British Drill and Exercise of the Company"
                > 1816
                >
                >
                >
                > Kevin
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • shayna121
                What I mean is that when the Other Ranks present arms, and the Officers are in formation with the battalion, they salute with their swords. Some may call it
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 29, 2012
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                  What I mean is that when the Other Ranks present arms, and the Officers are in formation with the battalion, they salute with their swords. Some may call it semantics, but we think it's an important distinction.

                  Chris

                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Colonel" <lehrerprofessoren@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I would like to ask if you are refering to an officer being saluted by a soldier presenting arms to him when you say, "...officers do not present arms." I know from manuals of the 18th century and following that officers are instructed in presenting arms when in line and in formation with the battalion or when marching with eyes left or right. Please clarify for me if officers are not to present arms at all according to some research as I would like to have this straight for future mention. Thank you.
                  >
                  > Tom
                  >
                  > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "shayna121" <PrivateCannon@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Very interesting.
                  > >
                  > > Iain and I have been carrying on this converstaion offline, but here are some of the things we've discussed:
                  > >
                  > > 1) Officers do not 'present arms.' When their men do so, they salute.
                  > >
                  > > 2) To reiterate, no period drill manual yet found has a 'present arms' for Serjeants armed with a pike.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > 3) This drill manual says Serjeants are to remain at the shoulder during all other movements, but that would still allow them to salute in the manner described in previous converstaions (arm across the body to set the musket or pike firmly into the shoulder). They wouldn't be removing their pike from their shoulder.
                  > >
                  > > Do these things suggest that while the rank and file present arms, the Serjeants salute as they would when approaching an officer? The other alternative is that they do nothing, which doesn't quite feel right to me.
                  > >
                  > > Also, as this is a drill manual for the pike, can we assume that Serjeants armed with muskets continue to present arms?
                  > >
                  > > I'd love to hear others' thoughts.
                  > >
                  > > Merry Christmas and Happy Hogmanay,
                  > >
                  > > Chris McKay
                  > >
                  > > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Iain Burns" <iain51hdbw@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > All,
                  > > that, "Serjeants remain at the shoulder during the performance of the other parts of the exercise...'
                  > >
                  > > > Mr. McKay's addition to the conversation re: saluting, taken from the 85th Light Infantry Standing orders book, would therefore only be employed when a Serjeant was rendering proper reverence to an Officer, and not something used when the rest of his group was called to Present. Indeed, the manuals I have seen have a "Salute" for Officers, but again nothing about a special move for Present; to my mind, at least, there is a subtle difference between being called to Present and rendering a Salute, even though one might Salute while others are given the order to Present.
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Aye,
                  > > > Iain
                  > > > 1st Royal Scots, No. 3 (Centre) Coy
                  > >
                  >
                • Kevin Windsor
                  From the standing orders of the 85th. Whenever a Non-Commissioned Officer, Bugler, or Private has an occasion to address an Officer, give a report, &c, - if
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 29, 2012
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                    From the standing orders of the 85th.



                    "Whenever a Non-Commissioned Officer, Bugler, or Private has an occasion to
                    address an Officer, give a report, &c, - if with arms, he raises his right
                    hand, in the manner above described, to his cap, drops it to the Attention
                    position, and raises it once more on leaving the Officer; if with arms he
                    RECOVERS first, returns to the Carry, and only RECOVERS again when parting
                    with the Officer"



                    From "A Treatise on the British Drill and the Exercise of the Company" 1816



                    "It is in the position of RECOVER ARMS that a soldier, when with his
                    firelock, is at all times to address himself and speak to an officer; and it
                    is likewise this position which is taken when the command Recover Arms is
                    given as a preparative to the dismissal of a body of men;"



                    Kevin



                    From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    Of shayna121





                    Why would the recover be used as a salute or present arms?

                    Chris






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kevin Windsor
                    There is nothing in the Exercise of the Pike that shows Advance Arms for the pike. Kevin From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com]
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 29, 2012
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                      There is nothing in the "Exercise of the Pike" that shows "Advance Arms" for
                      the pike.



                      Kevin



                      From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of Mark Dickerson



                      but a sgt usually does carry the pike at the advance, so it would be the
                      left hand that comes across assuming that is the situation.

                      Mark D




                      ,___



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • John
                      Hi Tom, Speaking culturally for a moment from one within a Commonwealth military I can say that there are two salutes for both officers and men and perhaps
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 30, 2012
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                        Hi Tom,

                        Speaking culturally for a moment from one within a Commonwealth military I can say that there are two salutes for both officers and men and perhaps this is where some of the confusion comes from. There is a (if you like) long salute which is the full present arms and sword salute where the sword is first raised hilt to the lips and then dropped to the full extent of the right arm. This is used when conducting Royal or General Salutes on the parade ground or to salute dignatories etc..

                        The short salute or report is when for the troops, the left arm (with the current weapons) is brought sharply across the body, forearm parallel to the deck, fingers extended etc.. The equivalent for officer's is to raise the sword hilt to the lips but then to return to the carry. In both cases this is used when reporting to a superior officer prior to an inspection or a similar 'short report'..

                        It's difficult to explain, but in the case of the full present arms it is conducted by the troops in order to salute, whilst officers simultaneously perform a sword salute (which is in effect the same thing as a present arms) but it's not described in those terms... You won't I believe see a drill manual for sword drill for example describing the sword salute as a "present arms", but it may say that an officer will conduct the sword salute at the same time as the men present arms, his movements conforming with theirs... Semantics I know but perhaps a subtle distinction from the days when social class was more of a factor in the military than it is today.. A bit like the old saying that the men sweat but officers perspire, or that officers 'make love' and the men/NCO's fornicate...!

                        Not sure if that helped or not, but it is very difficult describing cultural nuances to those outside the culture...

                        Cheers,

                        John


                        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Colonel" <lehrerprofessoren@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I would like to ask if you are refering to an officer being saluted by a soldier presenting arms to him when you say, "...officers do not present arms." I know from manuals of the 18th century and following that officers are instructed in presenting arms when in line and in formation with the battalion or when marching with eyes left or right. Please clarify for me if officers are not to present arms at all according to some research as I would like to have this straight for future mention. Thank you.
                        >
                        > Tom
                        >
                        > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "shayna121" <PrivateCannon@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Very interesting.
                        > >
                        > > Iain and I have been carrying on this converstaion offline, but here are some of the things we've discussed:
                        > >
                        > > 1) Officers do not 'present arms.' When their men do so, they salute.
                        > >
                        > > 2) To reiterate, no period drill manual yet found has a 'present arms' for Serjeants armed with a pike.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 3) This drill manual says Serjeants are to remain at the shoulder during all other movements, but that would still allow them to salute in the manner described in previous converstaions (arm across the body to set the musket or pike firmly into the shoulder). They wouldn't be removing their pike from their shoulder.
                        > >
                        > > Do these things suggest that while the rank and file present arms, the Serjeants salute as they would when approaching an officer? The other alternative is that they do nothing, which doesn't quite feel right to me.
                        > >
                        > > Also, as this is a drill manual for the pike, can we assume that Serjeants armed with muskets continue to present arms?
                        > >
                        > > I'd love to hear others' thoughts.
                        > >
                        > > Merry Christmas and Happy Hogmanay,
                        > >
                        > > Chris McKay
                        > >
                        > > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Iain Burns" <iain51hdbw@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > All,
                        > > that, "Serjeants remain at the shoulder during the performance of the other parts of the exercise...'
                        > >
                        > > > Mr. McKay's addition to the conversation re: saluting, taken from the 85th Light Infantry Standing orders book, would therefore only be employed when a Serjeant was rendering proper reverence to an Officer, and not something used when the rest of his group was called to Present. Indeed, the manuals I have seen have a "Salute" for Officers, but again nothing about a special move for Present; to my mind, at least, there is a subtle difference between being called to Present and rendering a Salute, even though one might Salute while others are given the order to Present.
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Aye,
                        > > > Iain
                        > > > 1st Royal Scots, No. 3 (Centre) Coy
                        > >
                        >
                      • John
                        This sounds like the drill movement our Sergeant s use in Aust for the full present arms. For the short report scenario we use the left hand across the body -
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 30, 2012
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                          This sounds like the drill movement our Sergeant's use in Aust for the full present arms. For the short report scenario we use the left hand across the body - for a start it would be too dangerous to lower the spontoon to a perpendicular position in front of a senior officer when your trying to report to him...!

                          Cheers,

                          John

                          --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Windsor <kevin.windsor@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Iain, the best I can figure from the manual is to recover arms.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > "Throw the pike to the front in a perpendicular position opposite to the
                          > left eye, the right hand grasping it at the shoe, which touches the body
                          > slightly, and the left hand supporting the shaft by holding it opposite the
                          > left eye between the thumb and fore-finger; the left elbow is in this
                          > position bent, and risen as high as the left shoulder."
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > This is from "A Treatise on the British Drill and Exercise of the Company"
                          > 1816
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Kevin
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • peter monahan
                          And exactly which manual has the make love and fornicate drills in it? Peter Monahan John Potter said: Semantics I know but perhaps a subtle
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 31, 2012
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                            And exactly which manual has the 'make love' and fornicate drills in it?

                            Peter Monahan





                            John Potter said: <SNIP> "Semantics I know but perhaps a subtle distinction from the days when social class was more of a factor in the military than it is today.. A bit like the old saying that the men sweat but officers perspire, or that officers 'make love' and the men/NCO's fornicate...!<unSNIP>
                          • Mark Dickerson
                            My mistake then. During my years as a sergeant in the light company, I only every carried a musket, not one of those silly fish/pike things. And I always
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jan 2, 2013
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                              My mistake then. During my years as a sergeant in the light company, I only
                              every carried a musket, not one of those silly fish/pike things. And I
                              always carried it at the advance as befitting such an important person of
                              quality and dignity.



                              Mark







                              From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                              Of Kevin Windsor
                              Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 4:20 PM
                              To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: 1812 Re: Pike Drill for Serjeants, Revisited...





                              There is nothing in the "Exercise of the Pike" that shows "Advance Arms" for
                              the pike.

                              Kevin

                              From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>
                              [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                              Behalf
                              Of Mark Dickerson

                              but a sgt usually does carry the pike at the advance, so it would be the
                              left hand that comes across assuming that is the situation.

                              Mark D

                              ,___

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • John
                              You know what the Army is like.. Everything is regulated and done by the numbers ...! ;-) John
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jan 2, 2013
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                                You know what the Army is like.. Everything is regulated and done 'by the numbers'...! ;-)

                                John

                                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, peter monahan <petemonahan@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > And exactly which manual has the 'make love' and fornicate drills in it?
                                >
                                > Peter Monahan
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > John Potter said: <SNIP> "Semantics I know but perhaps a subtle distinction from the days when social class was more of a factor in the military than it is today.. A bit like the old saying that the men sweat but officers perspire, or that officers 'make love' and the men/NCO's fornicate...!<unSNIP>
                                >
                              • Kevin Windsor
                                No I guess you are too fancy for things like that!! KW From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Dickerson My
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jan 2, 2013
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                                  No I guess you are too fancy for things like that!!



                                  KW



                                  From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                  Of Mark Dickerson



                                  My mistake then. During my years as a sergeant in the light company, I only
                                  every carried a musket, not one of those silly fish/pike things. And I
                                  always carried it at the advance as befitting such an important person of
                                  quality and dignity.

                                  Mark




                                  ___



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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