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RE: 1812 Paying "compliments."

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  • peter monahan
    Bob I believe that Chris McKay is the expert on this for the British units. He did a presentation at our NCO School in the last year or two. It gets
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 12, 2012
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      Bob

      I believe that Chris McKay is the expert on this for the British units. He did a presentation at our NCO School in the last year or two. It gets complicated - with arms, without arms, under command, not under, with an NCO ... You get the idea, I think.

      I expect Chris will jump in here! Right, Chris?

      Peter Monahan

      petemonahan@...
      705-435-0953 home / 705-890-9953 cell




      > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
      > From: braunwis@...
      > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 01:10:05 +0000
      > Subject: 1812 Paying "compliments."
      >
      > Hello-- my apologies if this topic has been covered.
      >
      > Von Steuben and Smyth seem to be silent on compliments (salutes) paid to officers when the soldier is without arms. I would appreciate any thoughts or enlightenment on whether or not such compliments are appropriate in 1812-1815.
      >
      > Many thanks!
      >
      > Bob Braun
      >
      >
      >
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • sacbg7
      Good morning Bob, Dave Bennett and I have found the following regarding the paying of compliments/saluting for US troops. See below. All the best, S. A
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 13, 2012
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        Good morning Bob,

        Dave Bennett and I have found the following regarding the paying of compliments/saluting for US troops. See below.

        All the best,
        S.

        A "salute" is with the hand / removing the hat/cap.

        "Honours" to an officer includes "Present Arms". Honours are givien
        to particular Officers by their guards once a day or by a
        Sentinel.....

        "Regulations for the Field Exercise, Manoeuvres, and conduct of the
        Infantry of the Unite States...1812:

        [page187] To major Generals: They will turn out with presented arms
        and beat two ruffles.
        To Brigadier generals; they ....presented arms, and beat one ruffle.
        To officers of the day; They will ....presented arms, and beat
        according to their rank.
        To Colonels; Their own quarter guards turn out once a day with
        presented arms; after which they only turn out with ordered arms.
        To lt.Cols; Their own quarter guard ...once a day with shouldered
        arms; after which they only turn out and stand by their arms.
        To majors; Their own quarter guards turn out once a day with ordered
        arms; at all other times they stand by their arms.
        When a Lt. Col or Major commands a regiment, the quarter guard is to
        pay him the same honours as are due to a colonel.
        All Sentinels present their arms to general officers, and to the
        field officers of their own regiments; to all other commissioned
        officers they stand with shouldered arms.
        No honours are to be paid to any officer of the army unless he wears
        military dress.
        When a detachment with arms passes before a guard, the guard shall be
        under arms, and the drums of both beat a march.
        When a detachment without arms passes before a guard, the guard shall
        turn out and stand by their arms.
        After retreat no honours are to be paid; and when near the enemy, no
        honours are to be paid with the drum. "

        "Standing orders of the First Infantry [ National Archives RG98,
        Clemson/Symmes Company book, Originaly issued 1802 1807-1815 ]

        Soldiers to Salute their Officers
        As the non-commissioned officers and men are subject to take off
        their hats so frequently, to the injury of the Hat, the practice is
        forbidden; and for future whenever a non-commissioned officer or
        soldier, passes an officer of the navy, or army, speaks to him out of
        Door, he is to raise his right hand briskly to his hat, with the elbow
        square with the shoulder, and look the officer full in the face. A
        non-commissioned officer or a soldier with arms, coming up to speak
        to an officer is to march up boldly, Recover his arms and deliver his
        message without fear or diffidence."

        Below is information on orders of the 7th Infantry. This is dated 1813/15 and from the recruiting depot in Knoxville, TN

        " A soldier will rise when an officer enters the room and remain
        standing during the visit. [ 1813 ]

        The Saluation among Officers in Uniform, will be made by touching the
        cap or chapeau without inclination of the head or body; out of
        uniform by uncovering the head, in the case the inferior would be the
        last to recover the head. [ 1815 ]

        The non-commissioned staff and Sergeants when in uniform, without
        halting salute officers as above; Out of uniform they would take off
        their hats or police cap and hold it down by the right side until the
        officer passes or is passed. [ 1815 ]

        Every Corporal or private soldier, will in general, salute officers
        in like manner; but if the officer by a general the colonel or other
        commander of the regiment or Post, and the Corporal or soldier be in
        uniform, he would halt, fact to, and salute such officer by touching
        the cap as above and then remain as under arms for a moment or until
        passed. By this form, at the same time the compliment is rendered,
        the individual submits himself to an Inspection. [ 1815 ]

        A non-commissioned officer or soldier being seated and without
        particular occupation, will rise on the approach of an officer and
        make the customary salutation. If standing, it would be proper to
        turn towards the officer for the same purpose. [ 1815 ]

        If the parties remain in the same place, or on the same ground, such
        compliments would not, in general be repeated. [ 1815 ]"

        In Conclusion, presenting of arms was on the parade ground, or by
        sentinels or the guard to high ranking officers. To their Captains
        they would recover arms.
        Reenactors frequently get silly and start presenting arms to anyone
        and everyone.

        Officers are saluted when they are in uniform, if they are running
        around out of uniform for whatever reason, they are not saluted, only
        remove the cap.

        If enlisted men ( Corporals and privates ) are in uniform they are to
        halt and salute, thus submitting them self to be inspected. This is
        to their regimental commander, a general or a Post commander.


        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <braunwis@...> wrote:

        > Von Steuben and Smyth seem to be silent on compliments (salutes) paid to officers when the soldier is without arms. I would appreciate any thoughts or enlightenment on whether or not such compliments are appropriate in 1812-1815.
      • Peter Catley
        Steve, Very interesting, do Pensioners (US) receive compliments? In the British Army an Officer is expected to salute a Pensioner (in uniform) rather than the
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 13, 2012
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          Steve,

          Very interesting, do Pensioners (US) receive compliments? In the British Army an Officer is expected to salute a Pensioner (in uniform) rather than the other way around.

          I was surprised in Belgium when our military attache (Royal Marines Lt. Colonel) paid me a compliment even though he knew I was a re-enactor and not kosher. He said that it was the uniform that he honoured (absolutely correct) I was touched.

          Incidentally the Pensioners of the Royal Hospital are the only British Army organisation who have the right to salute with their left hand.

          Compliment of the season to you, your family and all the ladies and gentlemen who portray the US Forces of the 1812 period.

          Yours

          Peter Catley
          In-Pensioner, the Royal Hospital, Chelsea, London.

          On 13 Dec 2012, at 14:27, sacbg7 <sacbg7@...> wrote:

          > Good morning Bob,
          >
          > Dave Bennett and I have found the following regarding the paying of compliments/saluting for US troops. See below.
          >
          > All the best,
          > S.
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Charles Fitton
          ...so if I have a musket, and am hitching a ride on a turnip cart, as we pass a mounted officer.... f
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 14, 2012
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            ...so if I have a musket, and am hitching a ride on a turnip cart, as we pass a mounted officer....


            f

            WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com writes:
            >Good morning Bob,
            >
            >Dave Bennett and I have found the following regarding the paying of compliments/saluting for US troops. See below.
            >
            >All the best,
            >S.
          • Ray Hobbs
            I believe the officer is under no obligation to acknowledge a ranker, even if he salutes. You might get his attention by chucking a turnip. Hobbs From:
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 14, 2012
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              I believe the officer is under no obligation to acknowledge a ranker, even if he salutes. You might get his attention by chucking a turnip.

              Hobbs


              From: charles_fitton@...
              Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 14:40:16 -0500
              Subject: Re: 1812 Re: Paying "compliments."

              ...so if I have a musket, and am hitching a ride on a turnip cart, as we pass a mounted officer....



              f
            • peter monahan
              You salute the horse, of course! Peter Monahan
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 14, 2012
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                You salute the horse, of course!

                Peter Monahan


                > From: charles_fitton@...
                > Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 14:40:16 -0500
                > Subject: Re: 1812 Re: Paying "compliments."
                >
                > ...so if I have a musket, and am hitching a ride on a turnip cart, as we pass a mounted officer....
                >
                >
                > f
                >
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