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Re: Saluting with Pike or Musket held

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  • tom4141fournier
    Perfect, what I was looking for ... Thanks!
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 7, 2012
      Perfect, what I was looking for ...

      Thanks!

      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "shayna121" wrote:
      >
      > Hi Tom,
      > To refresh - This is from the 85th Standing Orders. If a soldier is carrying his musket at the advance, and comes upon an officer, the left hand is "brought across the body with a firm motion to set the fuzee firmly into the shoulder, and immediately brought back after passing." Similarly, when at any other position, (carry, slope, trail, etc.) the musket is brought back to the carry position, and held in place with the right hand. Note that that is only on passing an officer with arms; if addressing an officer, or on sentry, this is not used.
      >
      > As the Serjeant would be carrying his pike in the right hand, similar to the advance, it is reasonable to suggest he would bring his left hand across to set it into his shoulder.
      >
      > Chris McKay
      >
    • peter monahan
      Iain A separate drill for the pike was developed in line with the words of command used for the musket drill of the other ranks. The below drill is reproduced
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 7, 2012
        Iain A separate drill for the pike was developed in line with the words of command
        used for the musket drill of the other ranks. The below drill is reproduced from
        A Treatise on the British Drill and Exercise of the Company; with an
        Introduction to the Field Exercise of the Battalion; Explaining the Different
        Posts and Situations of Every Individual in the Battalion During the Performance
        of its Movements. By an Infantry Officer (London: 1814). May be found at "The Discriminating General", Peter Twist's site. Robert Henderson wrote the article, which covers everything but the salute!

        Peter Monahan

        petemonahan@...
        705-435-0953 home / 705-890-9953 cell



        > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
        > From: iain51hdbw@...
        > Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 20:49:57 -0400
        > Subject: Re: 1812 Re: Pike Exercise Question- Present
        >
        > Thanks, Colin...
        >
        > I went back over the manuals I had when I did Rev War and found that the "Discipline for the Norfolk Militia" ( online at http://books.google.com/books?id=B0EIAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false<http://books.google.com/books?id=B0EIAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false> ) has a Halbred section, which also skips over the Present Arms. A separate section for Officers does have the Fusil salute whereby the point of the bayonetted fusil is arced towards and pointed at the ground Since the Halbred is to the 1750's what a Pike is to the early 1800's (and by this I mean both were Serjeant's weapons/ badges of rank), and since the Officer seems to have special stuff included in his manual that is not included in the Halbred exercise (mirroring what is described for the Pike for our period), this is leading me even more to think that this is not accidentally ommitted, and that a Pike should not be used like an Officer might use a Fusil or Spontoon. And you have a good point about not having the room, if you are behind the officer!
        >
        > Aye,
        > Iain
        >
        > Colin says:
        >
        > {SNIP} I know that in our period, usually the Sergeant is placed behind a company officer when in formation, and so performing a 'sweeping' motion that you mentioned in the 1739 Officer's Regs is impossible with a 9-foot pike in the rear rank.
        >
        >
        >
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      • Colin
        @ Tom, Sorry I forgot you were not at the NCO School this year where Chris gave his presentation on Saluting and Compliments. The saluting movement I was
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 7, 2012
          @ Tom,

          Sorry I forgot you were not at the NCO School this year where Chris gave his presentation on Saluting and Compliments.

          The saluting movement I was referring to was taken from his notes and handouts.

          Sorry for any confusion,

          Cheers

          Colin


          --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "tom4141fournier" <tom4141fournier@...> wrote:
          >
          > Perfect, what I was looking for ...
          >
          > Thanks!
          >
          > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "shayna121" wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Tom,
          > > To refresh - This is from the 85th Standing Orders. If a soldier is carrying his musket at the advance, and comes upon an officer, the left hand is "brought across the body with a firm motion to set the fuzee firmly into the shoulder, and immediately brought back after passing." Similarly, when at any other position, (carry, slope, trail, etc.) the musket is brought back to the carry position, and held in place with the right hand. Note that that is only on passing an officer with arms; if addressing an officer, or on sentry, this is not used.
          > >
          > > As the Serjeant would be carrying his pike in the right hand, similar to the advance, it is reasonable to suggest he would bring his left hand across to set it into his shoulder.
          > >
          > > Chris McKay
          > >
          >
        • Iain Burns
          Thanks, Peter, I did find that on Googlebooks. My comment about the Norfolk Militia drill is in reference to the Halbred drill from that manual being the same
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 7, 2012
            Thanks, Peter, I did find that on Googlebooks. My comment about the Norfolk Militia drill is in reference to the Halbred drill from that manual being the same as the Pike Drill from "A Treatise..." in that both leave out any mention for Present Arms with the Halbred/Pike.

            Aye,
            Iain

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: peter monahan<mailto:petemonahan@...>

            Iain A separate drill for the pike was developed in line with the words of command
            used for the musket drill of the other ranks. The below drill is reproduced from
            A Treatise on the British Drill and Exercise of the Company; with an
            Introduction to the Field Exercise of the Battalion; Explaining the Different
            Posts and Situations of Every Individual in the Battalion During the Performance
            of its Movements. By an Infantry Officer (London: 1814). May be found at "The Discriminating General", Peter Twist's site. Robert Henderson wrote the article, which covers everything but the salute!

            Peter Monahan

            petemonahan@...<mailto:petemonahan%40sympatico.ca>
            705-435-0953 home / 705-890-9953 cell


            When replying to a message:
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            2. Change subject line if not truly descriptive.
            3. Consider whether you should reply to the group or the individual.


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          • shayna121
            Which in turn were taken directly from Tom s lecture at the Living History Conference the year before. :) Chris ... his presentation on Saluting and
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 7, 2012
              Which in turn were taken directly from Tom's lecture at the Living History Conference the year before. :)

              Chris

              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Colin" <colin.pinn@...> wrote:
              his presentation on Saluting and Compliments.
              >
              > The saluting movement I was referring to was taken from his notes and handouts.
              >
              > Sorry for any confusion,
              >
              > Cheers
              >
              > Colin
              >
            • Jason Everett
              Many years ago I was in a used bookshop and naturally headed for the history section, with British history being one on my top list. There was a big hardcover
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 7, 2012
                Many years ago I was in a used bookshop and naturally headed for the history section, with British history being one on my top list.

                There was a big hardcover book on the history of England. On the dustjacket was a reproduction of an original painting of a Napoleonic era British Volunteer unit. They were parading on a beach in open order.

                While the figures were small as a good part of the Battalion was included, you could make out several details. The the officers were out front saluting, the rank and file presenting, as were the Pioneers on the right (with axes). The pikes were all upright. (Don't recall being able to make out what the sergeants' other hand might have been doing.)

                Very tempted, but the rest of the book while it appeared interesting, wasn't quite worth the asking price. If I did scribble down the title of either painting or book, I lost the paper. But it was a striking detail that I haven't forgotten.

                YHOS,
                R. Jason Everett
                Incorp'd Militia
              • tom4141fournier
                I was waiting for that to come back to haunt me ...the joys of travel and trying to work on the fly! shayna121
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 7, 2012
                  I was waiting for that to come back to haunt me ...the joys of travel and trying to work on the fly!

                  "shayna121" >
                  > Which in turn were taken directly from Tom's lecture at the Living History Conference the year before. :)
                  >
                  > Chris
                  >
                  >
                • shayna121
                  I think that Jason is on the right track. No one seems to have seen a drill manual containing the present arms for pikes, so period pictures would be the next
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 8, 2012
                    I think that Jason is on the right track. No one seems to have seen a drill manual containing the present arms for pikes, so period pictures would be the next best source of information.

                    I have been debating whether the details of this picture are clear enough or not, but I'll let you decide: http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/image-461-eng.asp?page_id=526. This sketch is 'Scenes at Laprairie' and there is a Serjeant in the background. The pike is held vertically in front of the left thigh, and the left arm is bent. This looks to me like he is presenting arms with his pike in the same manner as if he had a musket.

                    Chris

                    --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Iain Burns" <iain51hdbw@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Thanks, Peter, I did find that on Googlebooks.
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