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Saluting with Pike or Musket held

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  • tom4141fournier
    Hi Colin Where does the instruction for the salute come from? Any references that I have seen have suggested that a salute can come from any hand (it does not
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 7, 2012
      Hi Colin

      Where does the instruction for the salute come from? Any references that I have seen have suggested that a salute can come from any hand (it does not specifically have to be the right hand) but rather the "free" hand.

      I have not seen anything suggesting bringing hand across the chest and tapping musket or pike.

      If there are references out there, I would be curious as to what they are.

      Thanks!

      Tom


      "Colin" < wrote:
      >
      > {SNIP}

      > As for saluting, usually if you are saluting an officer with a pike, the pike will likely be carried in the right arm and so to salute, either while on the march or stationary, we all just bring our left arm across our chest and tap the pike shaft with the palm of our hand, keeping them flat and palm in. This movement is similar to saluting if you were carrying a musket at the advance arms.
      >
      > Colin Pinn
      > Sergeant
      > 49th Hertfordshire Regt.,Gren Co.
      >
      >
    • annbwass@aol.com
      Great article featuring our upcoming Battle of Bladensburg event at Riversdale.
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 7, 2012
        Great article featuring our upcoming Battle of Bladensburg event at Riversdale.
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/without-prince-georges-county-there-might-have-been-no-star-spangled-banner/2012/08/06/dede95be-dcbf-11e1-9974-5c975ae4810f_story.html

        Ann Wass








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mark Bradford
        I do not think anything was written down, as faras as I am aware. We just started doing this drill because we were just standing there doing nothing. A
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 7, 2012
          I do not think anything was written down, as faras as I am aware. We just started doing this drill because we were just standing there doing nothing. A sergeant from the 42nd ( NA) also adopted it. It worked for us.


          With Regards
           
          Mark


          ________________________________
          From: tom4141fournier <tom4141fournier@...>
          To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, 7 August 2012, 11:19
          Subject: 1812 Saluting with Pike or Musket held


           
          Hi Colin

          Where does the instruction for the salute come from? Any references that I have seen have suggested that a salute can come from any hand (it does not specifically have to be the right hand) but rather the "free" hand.

          I have not seen anything suggesting bringing hand across the chest and tapping musket or pike.

          If there are references out there, I would be curious as to what they are.

          Thanks!

          Tom

          "Colin" < wrote:
          >
          > {SNIP}

          > As for saluting, usually if you are saluting an officer with a pike, the pike will likely be carried in the right arm and so to salute, either while on the march or stationary, we all just bring our left arm across our chest and tap the pike shaft with the palm of our hand, keeping them flat and palm in. This movement is similar to saluting if you were carrying a musket at the advance arms.
          >
          > Colin Pinn
          > Sergeant
          > 49th Hertfordshire Regt.,Gren Co.
          >
          >




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • shayna121
          Hi Tom, To refresh - This is from the 85th Standing Orders. If a soldier is carrying his musket at the advance, and comes upon an officer, the left hand is
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 7, 2012
            Hi Tom,
            To refresh - This is from the 85th Standing Orders. If a soldier is carrying his musket at the advance, and comes upon an officer, the left hand is "brought across the body with a firm motion to set the fuzee firmly into the shoulder, and immediately brought back after passing." Similarly, when at any other position, (carry, slope, trail, etc.) the musket is brought back to the carry position, and held in place with the right hand. Note that that is only on passing an officer with arms; if addressing an officer, or on sentry, this is not used.

            As the Serjeant would be carrying his pike in the right hand, similar to the advance, it is reasonable to suggest he would bring his left hand across to set it into his shoulder.

            Chris McKay

            --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "tom4141fournier" <tom4141fournier@...> wrote:
            >
            > I have not seen anything suggesting bringing hand across the chest and tapping musket or pike.
            >
            > If there are references out there, I would be curious as to what they are.
            >
            > Thanks!
            >
            > Tom
            >
          • tom4141fournier
            Perfect, what I was looking for ... Thanks!
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 7, 2012
              Perfect, what I was looking for ...

              Thanks!

              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "shayna121" wrote:
              >
              > Hi Tom,
              > To refresh - This is from the 85th Standing Orders. If a soldier is carrying his musket at the advance, and comes upon an officer, the left hand is "brought across the body with a firm motion to set the fuzee firmly into the shoulder, and immediately brought back after passing." Similarly, when at any other position, (carry, slope, trail, etc.) the musket is brought back to the carry position, and held in place with the right hand. Note that that is only on passing an officer with arms; if addressing an officer, or on sentry, this is not used.
              >
              > As the Serjeant would be carrying his pike in the right hand, similar to the advance, it is reasonable to suggest he would bring his left hand across to set it into his shoulder.
              >
              > Chris McKay
              >
            • peter monahan
              Iain A separate drill for the pike was developed in line with the words of command used for the musket drill of the other ranks. The below drill is reproduced
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 7, 2012
                Iain A separate drill for the pike was developed in line with the words of command
                used for the musket drill of the other ranks. The below drill is reproduced from
                A Treatise on the British Drill and Exercise of the Company; with an
                Introduction to the Field Exercise of the Battalion; Explaining the Different
                Posts and Situations of Every Individual in the Battalion During the Performance
                of its Movements. By an Infantry Officer (London: 1814). May be found at "The Discriminating General", Peter Twist's site. Robert Henderson wrote the article, which covers everything but the salute!

                Peter Monahan

                petemonahan@...
                705-435-0953 home / 705-890-9953 cell



                > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                > From: iain51hdbw@...
                > Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 20:49:57 -0400
                > Subject: Re: 1812 Re: Pike Exercise Question- Present
                >
                > Thanks, Colin...
                >
                > I went back over the manuals I had when I did Rev War and found that the "Discipline for the Norfolk Militia" ( online at http://books.google.com/books?id=B0EIAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false<http://books.google.com/books?id=B0EIAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false> ) has a Halbred section, which also skips over the Present Arms. A separate section for Officers does have the Fusil salute whereby the point of the bayonetted fusil is arced towards and pointed at the ground Since the Halbred is to the 1750's what a Pike is to the early 1800's (and by this I mean both were Serjeant's weapons/ badges of rank), and since the Officer seems to have special stuff included in his manual that is not included in the Halbred exercise (mirroring what is described for the Pike for our period), this is leading me even more to think that this is not accidentally ommitted, and that a Pike should not be used like an Officer might use a Fusil or Spontoon. And you have a good point about not having the room, if you are behind the officer!
                >
                > Aye,
                > Iain
                >
                > Colin says:
                >
                > {SNIP} I know that in our period, usually the Sergeant is placed behind a company officer when in formation, and so performing a 'sweeping' motion that you mentioned in the 1739 Officer's Regs is impossible with a 9-foot pike in the rear rank.
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > When replying to a message:
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Colin
                @ Tom, Sorry I forgot you were not at the NCO School this year where Chris gave his presentation on Saluting and Compliments. The saluting movement I was
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 7, 2012
                  @ Tom,

                  Sorry I forgot you were not at the NCO School this year where Chris gave his presentation on Saluting and Compliments.

                  The saluting movement I was referring to was taken from his notes and handouts.

                  Sorry for any confusion,

                  Cheers

                  Colin


                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "tom4141fournier" <tom4141fournier@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Perfect, what I was looking for ...
                  >
                  > Thanks!
                  >
                  > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "shayna121" wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Tom,
                  > > To refresh - This is from the 85th Standing Orders. If a soldier is carrying his musket at the advance, and comes upon an officer, the left hand is "brought across the body with a firm motion to set the fuzee firmly into the shoulder, and immediately brought back after passing." Similarly, when at any other position, (carry, slope, trail, etc.) the musket is brought back to the carry position, and held in place with the right hand. Note that that is only on passing an officer with arms; if addressing an officer, or on sentry, this is not used.
                  > >
                  > > As the Serjeant would be carrying his pike in the right hand, similar to the advance, it is reasonable to suggest he would bring his left hand across to set it into his shoulder.
                  > >
                  > > Chris McKay
                  > >
                  >
                • Iain Burns
                  Thanks, Peter, I did find that on Googlebooks. My comment about the Norfolk Militia drill is in reference to the Halbred drill from that manual being the same
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 7, 2012
                    Thanks, Peter, I did find that on Googlebooks. My comment about the Norfolk Militia drill is in reference to the Halbred drill from that manual being the same as the Pike Drill from "A Treatise..." in that both leave out any mention for Present Arms with the Halbred/Pike.

                    Aye,
                    Iain

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: peter monahan<mailto:petemonahan@...>

                    Iain A separate drill for the pike was developed in line with the words of command
                    used for the musket drill of the other ranks. The below drill is reproduced from
                    A Treatise on the British Drill and Exercise of the Company; with an
                    Introduction to the Field Exercise of the Battalion; Explaining the Different
                    Posts and Situations of Every Individual in the Battalion During the Performance
                    of its Movements. By an Infantry Officer (London: 1814). May be found at "The Discriminating General", Peter Twist's site. Robert Henderson wrote the article, which covers everything but the salute!

                    Peter Monahan

                    petemonahan@...<mailto:petemonahan%40sympatico.ca>
                    705-435-0953 home / 705-890-9953 cell


                    When replying to a message:
                    1. Keep only the essential part of the message you are quoting.
                    2. Change subject line if not truly descriptive.
                    3. Consider whether you should reply to the group or the individual.


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                  • shayna121
                    Which in turn were taken directly from Tom s lecture at the Living History Conference the year before. :) Chris ... his presentation on Saluting and
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 7, 2012
                      Which in turn were taken directly from Tom's lecture at the Living History Conference the year before. :)

                      Chris

                      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Colin" <colin.pinn@...> wrote:
                      his presentation on Saluting and Compliments.
                      >
                      > The saluting movement I was referring to was taken from his notes and handouts.
                      >
                      > Sorry for any confusion,
                      >
                      > Cheers
                      >
                      > Colin
                      >
                    • Jason Everett
                      Many years ago I was in a used bookshop and naturally headed for the history section, with British history being one on my top list. There was a big hardcover
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 7, 2012
                        Many years ago I was in a used bookshop and naturally headed for the history section, with British history being one on my top list.

                        There was a big hardcover book on the history of England. On the dustjacket was a reproduction of an original painting of a Napoleonic era British Volunteer unit. They were parading on a beach in open order.

                        While the figures were small as a good part of the Battalion was included, you could make out several details. The the officers were out front saluting, the rank and file presenting, as were the Pioneers on the right (with axes). The pikes were all upright. (Don't recall being able to make out what the sergeants' other hand might have been doing.)

                        Very tempted, but the rest of the book while it appeared interesting, wasn't quite worth the asking price. If I did scribble down the title of either painting or book, I lost the paper. But it was a striking detail that I haven't forgotten.

                        YHOS,
                        R. Jason Everett
                        Incorp'd Militia
                      • tom4141fournier
                        I was waiting for that to come back to haunt me ...the joys of travel and trying to work on the fly! shayna121
                        Message 11 of 15 , Aug 7, 2012
                          I was waiting for that to come back to haunt me ...the joys of travel and trying to work on the fly!

                          "shayna121" >
                          > Which in turn were taken directly from Tom's lecture at the Living History Conference the year before. :)
                          >
                          > Chris
                          >
                          >
                        • shayna121
                          I think that Jason is on the right track. No one seems to have seen a drill manual containing the present arms for pikes, so period pictures would be the next
                          Message 12 of 15 , Aug 8, 2012
                            I think that Jason is on the right track. No one seems to have seen a drill manual containing the present arms for pikes, so period pictures would be the next best source of information.

                            I have been debating whether the details of this picture are clear enough or not, but I'll let you decide: http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/image-461-eng.asp?page_id=526. This sketch is 'Scenes at Laprairie' and there is a Serjeant in the background. The pike is held vertically in front of the left thigh, and the left arm is bent. This looks to me like he is presenting arms with his pike in the same manner as if he had a musket.

                            Chris

                            --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Iain Burns" <iain51hdbw@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks, Peter, I did find that on Googlebooks.
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