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Native Treaty Flag question

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  • Mark Dickerson
    Does anybody know if there is such a thing as a native Treaty Flag from the War of 1812? I did a search on this list and nothing came up. A search on Google
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 24, 2012
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      Does anybody know if there is such a thing as a "native Treaty Flag" from
      the War of 1812?



      I did a search on this list and nothing came up. A search on Google comes
      up with modern treaty flags, but nothing from 1812.



      The Battle of the Thames committee is securing 1812 artifacts for display in
      Oct of 2013. A museum in Kentucky has a drum of the 41st from the Battle of
      the Thames. They also have what they claim is a "Native Treaty Flag" that
      was captured at the Battle of the Thames. It has the Union Flag in the top
      left corner, set upon a dark blue field. To me, it looks a lot like a navy
      flag, such as a blue ensign. Could this be a navy flag? Perhaps from one
      of the British boats that were burned along the Thames River during the
      retreat? Or did native treaty flags exist?



      Mark Dickerson

      Battle of the Thames





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • peter monahan
      Speaking from a position of almost complete ignorance [Reader may insert smarta** remark here], I would have thought that flags were a fairly European custom
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 24, 2012
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        Speaking from a position of almost complete ignorance [Reader may insert smarta** remark here], I would have thought that flags were a fairly European custom and concept. In fact, Russell Peters [Indo-Canadian comedian] claims that was how the British Empire grew: "Well, if you guys don't have a flag on this land, we're claiming it! Plant the flag quick, Jimmy! Now its ours and you flagless people are all members of the Empire, you lucky sods."

        Seriously, I'd be skeptical of the claim unless and until one of our more learned members provides some documentation that such a thing exists. Perhaps the Natives collected it to save it for the British, who from their behaviour clearly valued flags highly?

        Peter Monahan

        petemonahan@...
        705-435-0953 home / 705-890-9953 cell
      • Paul M. Kraase
        I believe the British gave a Blue Ensign to Tecumseh as a gift, but I don t know if this was any sort of official thing sanctioned by the King (as were the
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 24, 2012
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          I believe the British gave a Blue Ensign to Tecumseh as a gift, but I don't know if this was any sort of "official" thing sanctioned by the King (as were the Indian Peace Medals).
        • Mark Dickerson
          Is there any historical documention or accounts as evidence? Mark From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul M.
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 24, 2012
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            Is there any historical documention or accounts as evidence?



            Mark





            From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Paul M. Kraase
            Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 11:55 AM
            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: 1812 Native Treaty Flag question





            I believe the British gave a Blue Ensign to Tecumseh as a gift, but I don't
            know if this was any sort of "official" thing sanctioned by the King (as
            were the Indian Peace Medals).





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Paul M. Kraase
            I seem to recall seeing something at the River Raisin Museum in Monroe, Michigan. Give them a call, they may be able to answer this question. From:
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 24, 2012
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              I seem to recall seeing something at the River Raisin Museum in Monroe, Michigan. Give them a call, they may be able to answer this question.


              From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Dickerson
              Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:38 PM
              To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: 1812 Native Treaty Flag question



              Is there any historical documention or accounts as evidence?

              Mark
            • Mark Dickerson
              Here is the link to the Kentucky Military History Museum, East Main St., Frankfort, Ky. Or just do a search and find the site. They list several items from
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 24, 2012
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                Here is the link to the Kentucky Military History Museum, East Main St.,
                Frankfort, Ky. Or just do a search and find the site. They list several
                items "from the Battle of the Thames", including a cannon.



                http://kyhistory.pastperfect-online.com/35577cgi/mweb.exe?request=keyword;ke
                yword=thames;dtype=d



                Mark D





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • peter monahan
                Mark I see a guidon of the 3rd Kentucky Mtd Rifles associated with the battle. Any reference to the blue ensign/native flag ? Peter Monahan
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 24, 2012
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                  Mark

                  I see a guidon of the 3rd Kentucky Mtd Rifles associated with the battle. Any reference to the 'blue ensign/native flag'?

                  Peter Monahan

                  petemonahan@...
                  705-435-0953 home / 705-890-9953 cell
                • Kim Lundberg
                  The only period records that the native peoples kept were a copy of the treaties and wampum belts. I have never heard of flags from the native perspective;
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 24, 2012
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                    The only period records that the native peoples kept were a copy of the treaties and wampum belts. I have never heard of flags from the native perspective; they might have been given from the Brits, like they gave out redcoats, but I doubt it. Kim Lundberg
                  • boldbritishhero
                    ... The Minnesota Historical Society had a Red Ensign that belonged to the Grand Portage Band of Ojibwe, along with several George the III peace medals.
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 25, 2012
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                      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Kim Lundberg <klundber@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > The only period records that the native peoples kept were a copy of the treaties and wampum belts. I have never heard of flags from the native perspective; they might have been given from the Brits, like they gave out redcoats, but I doubt it. Kim Lundberg
                      >
                      The Minnesota Historical Society had a Red Ensign that belonged to the Grand Portage Band of Ojibwe, along with several George the III peace medals.

                      Patrick Schifferdecker
                    • I dont know Nick - never met him
                      Hello, I re-read the Kentucky Historical Society website. The description does not say the flag was captured at the Battle of the Thames – just that is was
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 25, 2012
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                        Hello,
                        I re-read the Kentucky Historical Society website. The description does not say the flag was captured at the Battle of the Thames – just that is was carried by Native Americans led by Techumseh.

                        The provenance says that the flag traces back to Reverend William A. Ellias. Reverend Ellias (Ezhaaswe) was an Anishinabe from Walpole Island who became a minister/missionary/teacher. This would likely mean this flag was never captured at all.

                        Professor David McNab (himself Metis) from York University wrote a book titled: Borders of Knowledge: an analytical study of …..(really long title but includes the journals of Rev. Elias which were "rediscovered" in the early 2000s).

                        Professor McNab's email address (found of the York University website) is dtmcnab@...

                        I think he may be willing to shed any light about a blue flag owned by Rev. Elias if the journals mentioned it.

                        Please keep us posted on any response you get.

                        Thanks
                        Jesse Staton
                        Troy, MI

                        -- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Dickerson" <mdickerson1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Does anybody know if there is such a thing as a "native Treaty Flag" from
                        > the War of 1812?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I did a search on this list and nothing came up. A search on Google comes
                        > up with modern treaty flags, but nothing from 1812.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The Battle of the Thames committee is securing 1812 artifacts for display in
                        > Oct of 2013. A museum in Kentucky has a drum of the 41st from the Battle of
                        > the Thames. They also have what they claim is a "Native Treaty Flag" that
                        > was captured at the Battle of the Thames. It has the Union Flag in the top
                        > left corner, set upon a dark blue field. To me, it looks a lot like a navy
                        > flag, such as a blue ensign. Could this be a navy flag? Perhaps from one
                        > of the British boats that were burned along the Thames River during the
                        > retreat? Or did native treaty flags exist?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Mark Dickerson
                        >
                        > Battle of the Thames
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Mark Dickerson
                        Thank you for the assistance! Mark Dickerson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 25, 2012
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                          Thank you for the assistance!



                          Mark Dickerson











                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Fred Briggs
                          Wow! Real Research beats the hell out of guessing, again! Congratulations! Fred Briggs ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jul 25, 2012
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                            Wow! Real Research beats the hell out of guessing, again! Congratulations!

                            Fred Briggs

                            On 25/07/2012 10:53 AM, I dont know Nick - never met him wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello,
                            > I re-read the Kentucky Historical Society website. The description
                            > does not say the flag was captured at the Battle of the Thames -- just
                            > that is was carried by Native Americans led by Techumseh.
                            >
                            > The provenance says that the flag traces back to Reverend William A.
                            > Ellias. Reverend Ellias (Ezhaaswe) was an Anishinabe from Walpole
                            > Island who became a minister/missionary/teacher. This would likely
                            > mean this flag was never captured at all.
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • I dont know Nick - never met him
                            Hello Mark. Did you find out any more about this flag?
                            Message 13 of 16 , Aug 8, 2012
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                              Hello Mark.
                              Did you find out any more about this flag?


                              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Dickerson" <mdickerson1@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Thank you for the assistance!
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Mark Dickerson
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • I dont know Nick - never met him
                              Hello Mark. Did you find out any more about this flag?
                              Message 14 of 16 , Aug 8, 2012
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                                Hello Mark.
                                Did you find out any more about this flag?


                                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Dickerson" <mdickerson1@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Thank you for the assistance!
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Mark Dickerson
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                              • Ron
                                I don t know about Treaty Flags but there do seem to be a fair number of these Ensigns extant, blue or red, that belonged to First Nations. We know that the
                                Message 15 of 16 , Aug 8, 2012
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                                  I don't know about "Treaty Flags" but there do seem to be a fair number of these Ensigns extant, blue or red, that belonged to First Nations. We know that the Miami Chief Memeskia flew a British flag in his village of Pickawillany and was nicknamed "Old Britain." He was killed in 1752 while draped in the flag.

                                  In 1794, Joseph Chew of the Indian Department at Michilimackinac requisitioned presents for the First Nations and wrote "there is not a doubt but several of the Chiefs will expect flags." Thomas Vercheres du Bougainville mentions recognizing a chiefs lodging from the flag flown by the entrance. In 1795 Chew was concerned by the lack of crimson bunting in stores, having only 15 yards which would only provide material for half of the flags required. He had lots of yellow and green bunting but said "I am much at a loss to account for yellow and green bunting being sent to make English colours---they (would) have answered for the Emporer of Morocco." This suggest that the flags were made up at the post rather than being shipped complete.

                                  In 1799 some Sauks and Foxes arrived at Amherstburg waving a flag and claiming to be loyal allies, demanding presents. The flag was an American flag given to them by James Wilkinson. They had thought it was a British flag.

                                  In stores at Amherstburg in 1796, among other items were 12 flags, 12 Chiefs coats, 12 large medals. This again suggests flags as one of the gifts for chiefs.

                                  Ron Dale


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Mark Dickerson
                                  That latest that I have been able to secure is that is a naval ensign, but any more than that, I don t know. Mark [snip] Hello Mark. Did you find out any more
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Aug 13, 2012
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                                    That latest that I have been able to secure is that is a naval ensign, but any more than that, I don't know.


                                    Mark

                                    [snip]

                                    Hello Mark.
                                    Did you find out any more about this flag?
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