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Re: January 2, 1815, New Orleans

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  • James Yaworsky
    ... Really? Weaponless, starving, barely clothed? Sounds like they were more of a liability than an asset... Where were these weaponless marksmen to get the
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 2, 2012
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      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "ONeil" <denoux3124@...> wrote:
      >
      > After a hard march of nearly seven hundred miles, the Kentucky Militia arrives to support Gen. Jackson. Excellent marksmen, they are in desperate shape, completely exhausted, starving, weaponless and barely clothed. [snip]

      Really? Weaponless, starving, barely clothed? Sounds like they were more of a liability than an asset... Where were these weaponless marksmen to get the rifles they would need to be of any use?

      Jim Yaworsky
    • Mark Dickerson
      I agree with Jim. I don t see how any militia from Kentucky could travel to New Orleans, through territory held by various native nations, and get there
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 2, 2012
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        I agree with Jim. I don't see how any militia from Kentucky could travel to
        New Orleans, through territory held by various native nations, and get there
        without any weapons. Sounds like some high ranking American officer trying
        to get more supplies from Washington by making his situation worse than it
        is. But my knowledge of American conditions and geography of the Southern
        US in 1815 is quite limited.



        Mark Dickerson







        From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of James Yaworsky
        Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 1:16 PM
        To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: 1812 Re: January 2, 1815, New Orleans



        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com> ,
        "ONeil" <denoux3124@...> wrote:
        >
        > After a hard march of nearly seven hundred miles, the Kentucky Militia
        arrives to support Gen. Jackson. Excellent marksmen, they are in desperate
        shape, completely exhausted, starving, weaponless and barely clothed. [snip]








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • larrylozon
        MARCH According to a documentery on TV, most of the travel in the 1700/1800 was done by river travel. New Orleans being on the Mississipi you would thing
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 2, 2012
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          "MARCH"

          According to a documentery on TV, most of the travel in the 1700/1800 was done by river travel.

          New Orleans being on the Mississipi you would thing they travelled by boat ?!?!

          Yrs.,
          L2



          --- "ONeil" wrote:

          "After a hard march of nearly seven hundred miles, the Kentucky Militia arrives to support Gen. Jackson."
        • Michael Mathews
          Kind of depends on where you are starting from and the availability of transport. If they were coming from TN or FL, parts of which are roughly 700 miles and
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 2, 2012
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            Kind of depends on where you are starting from and the availability of
            transport. If they were coming from TN or FL, parts of which are roughly
            700 miles and were Jackson's campaigning and recruiting grounds, there isn't
            a lot of practical river travel.



            Michael





            ---------------------------------------------------------------

            "We must sail sometimes with the wind and sometimes against it -- but we
            must sail, and not drift, nor lie at anchor." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes

            _____

            From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of larrylozon
            Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 3:36 PM
            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: 1812 Re: January 2, 1815, New Orleans





            "MARCH"

            According to a documentery on TV, most of the travel in the 1700/1800 was
            done by river travel.

            New Orleans being on the Mississipi you would thing they travelled by boat
            ?!?!

            Yrs.,
            L2

            --- "ONeil" wrote:

            "After a hard march of nearly seven hundred miles, the Kentucky Militia
            arrives to support Gen. Jackson."





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • artillerist1813
            Americans controlled the Mississippi Valley during the War of 1812. Troops and supplies moved via the river or along the Natchez Trace. It wasn t uncommon for
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 4, 2012
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              Americans controlled the Mississippi Valley during the War of 1812. Troops and supplies moved via the river or along the Natchez Trace. It wasn't uncommon for militia to lack weapons. They were normally supposed to draw stands of arms (rifles but more commonly a set of musket, bayonet, and cartridge box) from state arsenals. Some states either could not or preferred not to fully equip troops intended for Federal service outside the state. In these cases, Federal arsenals issued weapons.

              I think I've read that the Kentucky brigade embarked on flat boats and expected arms to follow them from the depot at Newport. These apparently didn't arrive on time.


              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mathews" <memathews@...> wrote:
              >
              > Kind of depends on where you are starting from and the availability of
              > transport. [snip]


              sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 3:36 PM
              >
              > "MARCH"
              >
              > According to a documentery on TV, most of the travel in the 1700/1800 was
              > done by river travel.
              >
              > New Orleans being on the Mississipi you would thing they travelled by boat
              > ?!?!
              >
              > Yrs.,
              > L2
              >
              > --- "ONeil" wrote:
              >
              > "After a hard march of nearly seven hundred miles, the Kentucky Militia
              > arrives to support Gen. Jackson."
              >
            • HQ93rd@aol.com
              To uncover one answer to this question, see one of Jackson s after battle letters: http://www.freedomshrine.com/historic-documents/andrew-jackson-letter.php
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 16, 2012
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                To uncover one answer to this question, see one of Jackson's after battle letters:
                http://www.freedomshrine.com/historic-documents/andrew-jackson-letter.php
                "Altho my forces, as to number, had been increased by the arrival of the Kentucky division - my strength had received very little addition; a small portion only of that detachment being provided with arms..."

                "...Simultaneously with his advance upon my lines, he had thrown over in his boats, a considerable force to the other side of the river. These having landed, were hardy enough to advance against the works of genl. Morgan; & what is strange & difficult to account for, at the very moment when their entire discomfiture was looked for with a confidence approaching to certainty, the Kentucky reinforcements in whom so much reliance had been placed, ingloriously fled,-drawing after them, by their example, the remainder of the forces; & thus, yielding to the enemy that most fortunate position..."



                Depending on one's interest there are some other items in the letter to note. For instance, the myth that no Brits made it over the parapet:
                (regarding British losses) "...& my men are still engaged in picking them up within my lines, & carrying them to the point where the enemy are to receive them. .."



                There are also references in other Jackson letters (such as his describing the firearms scrounged for the Kentucky Militia as being of "bad quality", nigh on worthless) and journals and histories aplenty. For instance:
                http://genforum.genealogy.com/warof1812/messages/5075.html
                "...Of these troops sixteen hundred and forty were on the firing line, and engaged in the Battle of New Orleans. One thousand and eighty-one of the Kentucky militia did not take part in the battle because they could not be furnished with arms..."
                "...'When the militia of Kentucky was called for, Governor Shelby was assured that a United States quartermaster would furnish transportation for the troops to New Orleans; but no such officer presented himself and no relief came from Washington. The men had rendezvoused on the banks of the Ohio in waiting, and here the expedition must have ended had not Colonel Richard Taylor, of Frankfort, the quartermaster of the State militia borrowed a sum sufficient to meet the immediate emergency. With this he purchased such boats as he could, some of which were unfit for the passage. Camp equipage could not be had in time, and about thirty pots and kettles were bought at Louisville - one to each company of eighty men. At the mouth of the Cumberland River they were detained eight days, with their axes and frows riving boards with which to patch up their old boats...."


                http://genforum.genealogy.com/grace/messages/1693.html
                "...The Kentucky volunteers massed on the Ohio River waiting for transportation that would take them down the Mississippi. The United States quartermaster was to supply rations, arms, and transport, but they did not show up until the battle was completely over. The Kentucky Militia quartermaster Colonel Richard Taylor, of Frankfort, had to borrow enough money to purchase boats to get the expedition started. The boats were insufficient, so the force had to stop at the mouth of the Cumberland River in present day, Livingston County, for eight days to make repairs on the boats, and build log barges to float down the Mississippi..."


                Now, someone ask me where Jean Lafitte was on 8 Jan 1815...
                ;-)
                B


                93rd SHRoFLHU
                THE Thin Red Line
                www.93rdhighlanders.com
                www.myspace.com/93rdhighlanders
                www.new.facebook.com/people/Sutherland_Highlanders/1120912511



                -----Original Message-----
                From: James Yaworsky <yawors1@...>
                To: WarOf1812 <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Mon, Jan 2, 2012 5:17 am
                Subject: 1812 Re: January 2, 1815, New Orleans
                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "ONeil" <denoux3124@...> wrote:

                >
                > After a hard march of nearly seven hundred miles, the Kentucky Militia arrives
                to support Gen. Jackson. Excellent marksmen, they are in desperate shape,
                completely exhausted, starving, weaponless and barely clothed. [snip]

                Really? Weaponless, starving, barely clothed? Sounds like they were more of a
                liability than an asset... Where were these weaponless marksmen to get the
                rifles they would need to be of any use?

                Jim Yaworsky








                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Gerard DeLos Reyes
                No one can say for sure about the where abouts of Jean Lafitte on the day of Jan 8th 1812.... It is rumored he was on Scouting missions for General Jackson
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 17, 2012
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                  No one can say for sure about the where abouts of Jean Lafitte on the day of Jan 8th 1812.... It is rumored he was on Scouting missions for General Jackson especially around the Gentilly area where the ground was drier and more even. Jackson had ordered a detachment to check the British movements in that area. Actually, if it wasn't for Admiral Cochran bullying Gen. Lambert (a Jr. General) into hastily making a impetous move; the battle would've turn out differently...It later recorded that Gen Packingham was furious of the predictament that Gen Lambert put him in...B/c he did not want to move his men into the swampy plains of Chalmette, but attack through Gentilly where the grounds could support his cannon(his first choice). But through his Napoleanic style as most European Officers, he decided to press a bad position through sheer numbers, not to regroup attack through Gentilly would take more time...and more time for Jackson to gather more troops.
                   
                  it is Noted that Dominque Youx( some reports had him as Jean's Brother)  was at the battle along with Beluche (a cousin of Jean)
                   

                  From: "HQ93rd@..." <HQ93rd@...>
                  To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 7:40 PM
                  Subject: Re: 1812 Re: January 2, 1815, New Orleans


                   
                  To uncover one answer to this question, see one of Jackson's after battle letters:
                  http://www.freedomshrine.com/historic-documents/andrew-jackson-letter.php
                  "Altho my forces, as to number, had been increased by the arrival of the Kentucky division - my strength had received very little addition; a small portion only of that detachment being provided with arms..."

                  "...Simultaneously with his advance upon my lines, he had thrown over in his boats, a considerable force to the other side of the river. These having landed, were hardy enough to advance against the works of genl. Morgan; & what is strange & difficult to account for, at the very moment when their entire discomfiture was looked for with a confidence approaching to certainty, the Kentucky reinforcements in whom so much reliance had been placed, ingloriously fled,-drawing after them, by their example, the remainder of the forces; & thus, yielding to the enemy that most fortunate position..."

                  Depending on one's interest there are some other items in the letter to note. For instance, the myth that no Brits made it over the parapet:
                  (regarding British losses) "...& my men are still engaged in picking them up within my lines, & carrying them to the point where the enemy are to receive them. .."

                  There are also references in other Jackson letters (such as his describing the firearms scrounged for the Kentucky Militia as being of "bad quality", nigh on worthless) and journals and histories aplenty. For instance:
                  http://genforum.genealogy.com/warof1812/messages/5075.html
                  "...Of these troops sixteen hundred and forty were on the firing line, and engaged in the Battle of New Orleans. One thousand and eighty-one of the Kentucky militia did not take part in the battle because they could not be furnished with arms..."
                  "...'When the militia of Kentucky was called for, Governor Shelby was assured that a United States quartermaster would furnish transportation for the troops to New Orleans; but no such officer presented himself and no relief came from Washington. The men had rendezvoused on the banks of the Ohio in waiting, and here the expedition must have ended had not Colonel Richard Taylor, of Frankfort, the quartermaster of the State militia borrowed a sum sufficient to meet the immediate emergency. With this he purchased such boats as he could, some of which were unfit for the passage. Camp equipage could not be had in time, and about thirty pots and kettles were bought at Louisville - one to each company of eighty men. At the mouth of the Cumberland River they were detained eight days, with their axes and frows riving boards with which to patch up their old boats...."

                  http://genforum.genealogy.com/grace/messages/1693.html
                  "...The Kentucky volunteers massed on the Ohio River waiting for transportation that would take them down the Mississippi. The United States quartermaster was to supply rations, arms, and transport, but they did not show up until the battle was completely over. The Kentucky Militia quartermaster Colonel Richard Taylor, of Frankfort, had to borrow enough money to purchase boats to get the expedition started. The boats were insufficient, so the force had to stop at the mouth of the Cumberland River in present day, Livingston County, for eight days to make repairs on the boats, and build log barges to float down the Mississippi..."

                  Now, someone ask me where Jean Lafitte was on 8 Jan 1815...
                  ;-)
                  B

                  93rd SHRoFLHU
                  THE Thin Red Line
                  www.93rdhighlanders.com
                  www.myspace.com/93rdhighlanders
                  www.new.facebook.com/people/Sutherland_Highlanders/1120912511

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: James Yaworsky <yawors1@...>
                  To: WarOf1812 <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Mon, Jan 2, 2012 5:17 am
                  Subject: 1812 Re: January 2, 1815, New Orleans
                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "ONeil" <denoux3124@...> wrote:

                  >
                  > After a hard march of nearly seven hundred miles, the Kentucky Militia arrives
                  to support Gen. Jackson. Excellent marksmen, they are in desperate shape,
                  completely exhausted, starving, weaponless and barely clothed. [snip]

                  Really? Weaponless, starving, barely clothed? Sounds like they were more of a
                  liability than an asset... Where were these weaponless marksmen to get the
                  rifles they would need to be of any use?

                  Jim Yaworsky

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • ONeil
                  Excellent information Gerard. One minor detail. It was Maj. Gen. John Keane who Admiral Cochrane brow-beat into invading through Bayou Bienvenu. Maj. Gen. John
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 18, 2012
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                    Excellent information Gerard. One minor detail. It was Maj. Gen. John Keane who Admiral Cochrane brow-beat into invading through Bayou Bienvenu. Maj. Gen. John Lambert did not arrive until January 4th.

                    --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Gerard DeLos Reyes <rdelo90@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > No one can say for sure about the where abouts of Jean Lafitte on the day of Jan 8th 1812.... [BIG snip]
                  • HQ93rd@aol.com
                    Jackson also sent Lafitte to advise Morgan about the possible canals and passages by which the enemy might penetrate the swamps to the city. Brooks, Charles
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 21, 2012
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                      "Jackson also sent Lafitte to advise Morgan about the possible canals and passages by which the enemy might penetrate the swamps to the city." Brooks, Charles B (1961). "The Siege of New Orleans", page 246. Seattle: University of Washington Press. OCLC 425116.

                      This passage is immediately followed by a reference ("48") which leads to page 309 in the "Notes" section: "48. Henry Adams, "History of the United States of America during the Second Administration of James Madison (New York: Chas. Scribner's Sons, 1904), II, 377-79. Morgan, "General Morgan's Defense," p.24. Latour, "Historical Memoir", pp. 173, 175. "Major Howell Tatum's Journal," pp. 127-28. Gayarre, "History of Louisiana", p. 493. Jackson, "Correspondence", II, 132-33 (Jackson to Morgan, Jan. 8).


                      Here is another: "Only two gun crews of Baratarians, under Dominique You and Renato Beluche, were employed in Line Jackson on Dec 28 and Jan 1 and 8. These were the only Baratarians who saw any action. Jackson sent Lafitte himself with Major Michael Reynolds to "The Temple" on the west bank of the river to secure it. On Dec 25 Lafitte came back in time to make a recommendation to Livingston about extending Line Jackson into the swamp, (34) but he took no other part until Jan 8, when Jackson sent him again to the west bank, to Morgan." (ref 34: Livingston to Jackson, Dec 29, 1814, Jackson Papers, L.C.) Brown, Wilburt S, Major General USMC (Retired) (1969). "The Amphibious Campaign for West Florida and Louisiana, 1814-1815", pages 86-87, University of Alabama Press. ISBN 0817351000.


                      One more: "He also dispatched Jean Lafitte to the west bank to help plan a defense against a British advance...". Patterson, Benton Rains "The Generals, Andrew Jackson, Sir Edward Pakenham, and the road to New Orleans". Page 253. 2008 ISBN 0-8147-6717-6 Ninety3rd (talk) 15:05, 8 October 2009


                      Cheers!
                      B


                      93rd SHRoFLHU
                      THE Thin Red Line
                      www.93rdhighlanders.com
                      www.myspace.com/93rdhighlanders
                      www.new.facebook.com/people/Sutherland_Highlanders/1120912511



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Gerard DeLos Reyes <rdelo90@...>
                      To: WarOf1812 <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tue, Jan 17, 2012 11:32 am
                      Subject: Re: 1812 Re: January 2, 1815, New Orleans


                      No one can say for sure about the where abouts of Jean Lafitte on the day of Jan
                      8th 1812.... It is rumored he was on Scouting missions for General Jackson
                      especially around the Gentilly area where the ground was drier and more even.
                      Jackson had ordered a detachment to check the British movements in that area.
                      Actually, if it wasn't for Admiral Cochran bullying Gen. Lambert (a Jr. General)
                      into hastily making a impetous move; the battle would've turn out
                      differently...It later recorded that Gen Packingham was furious of the
                      predictament that Gen Lambert put him in...B/c he did not want to move his men
                      into the swampy plains of Chalmette, but attack through Gentilly where the
                      grounds could support his cannon(his first choice). But through his Napoleanic
                      style as most European Officers, he decided to press a bad position through
                      sheer numbers, not to regroup attack through Gentilly would take more time...and
                      more time for Jackson to gather more troops.

                      it is Noted that Dominque Youx( some reports had him as Jean's Brother) was at
                      the battle along with Beluche (a cousin of Jean)


                      From: "HQ93rd@..." <HQ93rd@...>
                      To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 7:40 PM
                      Subject: Re: 1812 Re: January 2, 1815, New Orleans

                      (snip)
                      Now, someone ask me where Jean Lafitte was on 8 Jan 1815...
                      ;-)
                      B

                      93rd SHRoFLHU




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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