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Battle of Lundy's Lane

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  • Rob Taylor
    After Paul s posting about the Battle of Lundy s I re-read Where Right and Glory Lead Donald E. Graves. A very detailed and informative book. And indeed at
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 24, 1999
      After Paul's posting about the Battle of Lundy's I re-read "Where
      Right and Glory Lead" Donald E. Graves. A very detailed and
      informative book. And indeed at the bottom of P.181 it states ...
      "After five hours of fighting, Major General Jacob Brown and the Left
      Division of the United States Army had prevailed in the Bloodiest
      battle of the War of 1812." turning the page at the top Drummer
      Jarvis Hanks, 11th Infantry states ... "This memorable battle closed,
      by apparent consent, and desire of both armies. They retreated from
      the scene at the same time, weary and exhausted. Again no matter who
      you side with on the issue of who won the Battle of Lundy's Lane with
      commanding officers on both sides shot up and wounded this battle more
      or less ended the invasion of Canada, for the U.S. troops decided for
      whatever reasons to fall back to the confines of Fort Erie. The
      British and Canadian forces followed a few days later and besieged
      the fort.
      Also reading this book again reminded me that Lieutenant William
      Arnold, the twenty - year old son of Benedict Arnold was fighting or
      at least present at the battle with the British (Lysle's Dragoons)
      just a bit of trivia.




      ==
      War of 1812 Website: http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/
    • Sean
      Rob, Last week I posted that I thought the Battle of Lundy s Lane was not such a clear cut victory for the Americans and if looked at from a couple of
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 25, 1999
        Rob,

        Last week I posted that I thought the Battle of Lundy's Lane was not such a
        clear cut victory for the Americans and if looked at from a couple of
        different angles could be viewed as a British victory or in the very least
        a draw. It's nice to see that there is documented evidence to support my
        claims because I was vilified last week for trying to steal an American
        victory without any support for such claims. I knew there was evidence out
        there as I have read fairly extensively on the war but as I post to the
        list from work I have no sources to quote from on a regular basis.

        I hope now that people will see what I meant by it not being such a clear
        cut victory and even though Graves says it was such there are two accounts,
        one American that suggests it was a draw, Drummer Jarvis Hanks, 11th
        Infantry U.S.Army and one British, Lieutenant John Le Couteur, who suggests
        it was a British victory.

        American reenactors have their sources that say they clearly won the battle
        but it seems we British have our sources which may suggest otherwise. So
        you see, I have checked my sources and I guess that sometimes you can call
        a spade a club, or a heart, or a diamond...

        I have some radical views on Fort Erie as well but maybe they are best left
        for another day.



        Cpl. Sean Hirst
        Royal Newfoundland Reg't, Lt. Coy
        *********************************
        945-0591
      • Rob Taylor
        Sean wrote: Last week I posted that I thought the Battle of Lundy s Lane was not such a clear cut victory for the Americans and if looked at from a couple of
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 25, 1999
          Sean wrote:
          Last week I posted that I thought the Battle of Lundy's
          Lane was not such a clear cut victory for the Americans and if looked
          at from a couple of
          different angles could be viewed as a British victory or in the very
          least a draw.

          Rob wrote:
          Sean I would agree with you, this battle was not a clear
          U.S. victory. It would seem at least from these two accounts it was a
          British victory, one says they both fell back at the same time while
          the other says the British were still there. I would be interested in
          more accounts of this battle that say otherwise.
          ==
          War of 1812 Website: http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/
        • JESSE PUDWELL
          My Dear Rob,... Just to begin... The American army had every numerical advantage to WIN the battle,...but they did not. They suffered the loss of their first
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 25, 1999
            My Dear Rob,...

            Just to begin...
            The American army had every numerical advantage to WIN the battle,...but
            they did not.

            They suffered the loss of their first and second in command...and then,
            late in the evening, too late, it turned to their third in command...a
            barely wet behind the ears officer of approximately 21 years...compared
            to his senior officers of nearly 30 and 40 years!!!

            The americans should heve kicked British and Canadian BUTT all over the
            42 acres that they fought on!!! BUT THEY DIDN"T!!! For whatever
            reason,...they couldn't!!! NOW, ...everybody in the world can chop this
            battle up, like they do every other, but still never achieve an absolute
            answer!!! WE WEREN"T THERE...WE DON"T KNOW...but we can read the
            results,...the true results and the inflamed results...presented by BOTH
            armies.

            FACT IS: the American's created the Battle, they were severely disabled
            in the first two hours (my God...why Scott stood there and took the
            Artillery punishment that he did...WE WILL NEVER KNOW!!), they moved
            only upon receiving first brigade reinforcements and STILL they couldn't
            drive the British away (my God...why the British, terribly outmannned
            and having lost their guns, and being terribly out Gunned by the
            Americans by now did not leave...WE WILL NEVER KNOW!!)Still, the cahnge
            comes,...Scott then Brown injured...the young american commander, Ripley
            (having had previous diagreements with both Brown and Scott)developed
            his own mindset at the end of the day(around midnight) and whether it
            was fatigue, fear or a way of trying to prove his POWER of being in
            command to his now wounded superiors....moved his remaining army away at
            a point in the battle when he likely still could have produced winning
            results and LOST the day!!! It's a fact people and whether you're a
            lover of the Brits/Canucks or a hater of them ...the AMERICANS lost
            their ground, lost two of their three commanders, lost too many of their
            second brigade...LOST THEIR NERVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

            The British/ Canadians ( canadians in particular) had too much to
            lose...to LOSE...so they chose to remain on the site and FINISH IT...no
            matter what!!!!!! The americans couldn't do this ...for whatever
            raeason!!!That's History!!! So shove it!!! deal with it and accept it!!!
            It's a mute point!!!

            If you need more...I'll give it to you!!! Oh,...how I'll give it to
            you!!! bring it on, if you have the books to do it with...this is my
            territory and my battle....you want a fight of words anybody ...then
            bring it on !!!!

            Sorry...but I just blew a gasket!!
            The point of who won the Lundy's Lane Battle is such an absolutely
            stupid issue that it gives me pain just to think that anyone would
            actually think that the Americans were victorious!!! It was not a
            victory for either side!!! It was, handsdown, the worst, bloodiest, most
            devastating Battle during the entire War Of 1812 for both armies!!!!
            BUT!!! When the aggresive army, turns and marches away without defeating
            its enemy and also marches away from its battleground....IT iS THE
            LOSER!!! It's clear!!! Very clear!!! It was bad luck for a numerically
            superior army, bad decisions, grudge matches between usa senior and
            junior officers, fatigue and SOMEWHERE some lack of confidence!!! WHY
            !??? They had everything going for them!!! I almost feel sorry for the
            Americans...but I just can't bring myself to tears!!!

            Rob...you hold your ground my friend!!! Who won and who lost is really
            something that all of us have no grounds to ponder,...truely!!! We
            weren't there and we can't imagine the pain and suffering that the men
            of both armies endured!!! But,...when the superior army can't fight
            anymore,...chooses no longer to fight,...moves off of the ground they
            established and leaves it to their enemy,...and then moves BACK to their
            "stronghold"(that they give up 100 days later) and then eventually move
            off of the country that they boldly claimed they could conquer in 6
            weeks with " a mere matter of marching"...30 months!!! later!!!THEN THEY
            ARE LOSERS !!!!!!!!!! So GOD save the QUEEN and whoever the next monarch
            becomes and most of all GOD SAVE CANADA!!! We've endured centuries of
            American crap and american threats and american propaganda AND WE HAVE
            ENDURED!!!! We can't be defeated!!! we will live for ever!!!

            SERGEANT A. JESSE D. PUDWELL
            WAR OF 1812 ReENACTOR
            GLENGARRY LIGHT INFANTRY FENCIBLES
            UPPER CANADA
            LOYAL TO THE CROWN but
            more LOYAL TO CANADA...its DREAM, its PURPOSE and its ENDURING
            LEGACY...AMERICANS CAN'T BEAT US!!!!!

            -WarOf1812--1174-SGTPUDGLI Wed Feb 24 09:47:51 1999
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            >Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:56:39 -0800 (PST)
            >From: Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@...>
            >To: Warof1812@onelist.com
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            >Subject: [WarOf1812] Battle of Lundy's Lane
            >
            >From: Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@...>
            >
            >After Paul's posting about the Battle of Lundy's I re-read "Where
            >Right and Glory Lead" Donald E. Graves. A very detailed and
            >informative book. And indeed at the bottom of P.181 it states ...
            >"After five hours of fighting, Major General Jacob Brown and the Left
            >Division of the United States Army had prevailed in the Bloodiest
            >battle of the War of 1812." turning the page at the top Drummer
            >Jarvis Hanks, 11th Infantry states ... "This memorable battle closed,
            >by apparent consent, and desire of both armies. They retreated from
            >the scene at the same time, weary and exhausted. Again no matter who
            >you side with on the issue of who won the Battle of Lundy's Lane with
            >commanding officers on both sides shot up and wounded this battle more
            >or less ended the invasion of Canada, for the U.S. troops decided for
            >whatever reasons to fall back to the confines of Fort Erie. The
            >British and Canadian forces followed a few days later and besieged
            >the fort.
            > Also reading this book again reminded me that Lieutenant William
            >Arnold, the twenty - year old son of Benedict Arnold was fighting or
            >at least present at the battle with the British (Lysle's Dragoons)
            >just a bit of trivia.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >==
            >War of 1812 Website: http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >Come see our new web site! http://www.onelist.com
            >------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
            of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
            THOUSANDS of square miles...
          • Rob Taylor
            Yes, I agree with Sgt. Pudwell. There is no way for the U.S. to claim a victory here. (Lundy s Lane) Very weel put Sgt. Rob Taylor == War of 1812 Website:
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 25, 1999
              Yes, I agree with Sgt. Pudwell. There is no way for the U.S. to claim
              a victory here. (Lundy's Lane) Very weel put Sgt.
              Rob Taylor
              ==
              War of 1812 Website: http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/
            • Andrew S. Finch
              Rob could you supply more info ,reference, for the comment re arnolds son and the British (lysle s dragoons) first time I have heard of this unit and am
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 28, 1999
                Rob could you supply more info ,reference, for the comment re arnolds son
                and the British (lysle's dragoons) first time I have heard of this unit and
                am interested

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Rob Taylor [mailto:niagara_falls_98@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 11:57 AM
                To: Warof1812@onelist.com
                Subject: [WarOf1812] Battle of Lundy's Lane

                From: Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@...>

                After Paul's posting about the Battle of Lundy's I re-read "Where
                Right and Glory Lead" Donald E. Graves. A very detailed and
                informative book. And indeed at the bottom of P.181 it states ...
                "After five hours of fighting, Major General Jacob Brown and the Left
                Division of the United States Army had prevailed in the Bloodiest
                battle of the War of 1812." turning the page at the top Drummer
                Jarvis Hanks, 11th Infantry states ... "This memorable battle closed,
                by apparent consent, and desire of both armies. They retreated from
                the scene at the same time, weary and exhausted. Again no matter who
                you side with on the issue of who won the Battle of Lundy's Lane with
                commanding officers on both sides shot up and wounded this battle more
                or less ended the invasion of Canada, for the U.S. troops decided for
                whatever reasons to fall back to the confines of Fort Erie. The
                British and Canadian forces followed a few days later and besieged
                the fort.
                Also reading this book again reminded me that Lieutenant William
                Arnold, the twenty - year old son of Benedict Arnold was fighting or
                at least present at the battle with the British (Lysle's Dragoons)
                just a bit of trivia.




                ==
                War of 1812 Website: http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/




                ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Come see our new web site! http://www.onelist.com
                ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                square miles...
              • Rob Taylor
                Andrew wrote: Rob could you supply more info,reference, for the comment re arnolds son and the British (lysle s dragoons) first time I have heard of this unit
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 1, 1999
                  Andrew wrote:
                  Rob could you supply more info,reference, for the
                  comment re arnolds son and the British (lysle's dragoons) first time I
                  have heard of this unit and am interested.

                  Rob:
                  It comes from Donald E. Graves book "Where Right and Glory Lead!
                  The Battle of Lundy's Lane" P. 139
                  second paragraph. "Twylight was turning to dusk and visibility was
                  fast fading but Jesup could see Lysle's dragoons at the junction and
                  prepared to attack them. To his disappointment - as staionary cavalry
                  would have been vulnerable to a bayonet charge - the British horsemen
                  withdrew. Jesup would have been even more disappointed if he had known
                  that one of the dragoons riding away that night was Lieutenant William
                  Arnold, the twenty - year - old son of Benedict Arnold".
                  That's all it says about it, but I found it interesting.

                  Rob Taylor
                  ==
                  War of 1812 Website: http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/
                • Kevin Windsor
                  Today is the 188th anniversary of the battle of Lundy s Lane. Let us not forget those who fought and died in this battle. British Officers Killed Capt Spooner
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jul 25, 2002
                    Today is the 188th anniversary of the battle of Lundy's Lane. Let us
                    not forget those who fought and died in this battle.

                    British Officers Killed
                    Capt Spooner 89th Reg't
                    Lieut Moorsom, 104th Reg't
                    Lieut Hemphill, 1st Reg't (Royal Scots)
                    Lieut Latham, 89th Reg't
                    Ensign Campbell, Incorp. Militia

                    American Officers Killed
                    Major McFarland
                    Capt Goodrich
                    Capt Hooper
                    Capt Hull
                    Capt Kinney
                    Capt Ritchie
                    Capt Spencer
                    Lieut Armstrong
                    Lieut Bigelow
                    Lieut Burghardt
                    Lieut Davidson
                    Lieut Kehr
                    Lieut Poe
                    Lieut Sturgis
                    Lieut Turner
                    Ensign Hunter

                    Lest We Forget
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