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Re: 1812 Belgic and Stovepipe

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  • Forrest Harris
    Right you are--I confused the 41st with the either the 51st or 43rd--don t know why. So Belgic caps with a green plume?
    Message 1 of 17 , May 8, 2011
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      Right you are--I confused the 41st with the either the 51st or 43rd--don't know why. So Belgic caps with a green plume?

      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "shayna121" <PrivateCannon@...> wrote:
      >
      > Tom and Ray would have more details than I would on the 41st, but I'm confused by your theory that the 41st would have had stovepipes. It was the light infantry company of the 41st that fought at Lundy's Lane, but light infantry companies wore the same shako at the rest of their Regiment. It was only light infantry Regiments that allegedly continued with the stovepipe shako after the Belgic had been introduced (though even this is beginning to be questioned, but that's another issue).
      >
      >
      > Chris McKay
      >
      > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Forrest Harris" <forrestharris@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Thanks very much! That's extremely helpful.
      > > Forrest
      > >
      > > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Ron <ronaldjdale@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > It is difficult to determine which regiments had stovepipes and which had belgique shakos early in the war. A shako was to last a soldier for two years so if he received an 1811 issue of a stovepipe shako he could not hope to receive the 1811 Belgique shako until 1813--if supplies were able to reach him. In Le Couteur's diary, for which I am forever grateful to Don Graves, Le Couteur talks about his arrival in NB from Britain and the odd looks he got because he was wearing the new shako and coatee. This suggests that these changes had not hit BNA previously.
      > > >
      > > > Any shakos (caps) sent to BNA after 1811 were more than likely the new pattern and I suspect that they were universally worn by the 1814 campaign season. I would guess (and assume) that the Incorporated militia, when receiving their kit in the first place, received the proper shako with appropirate devices, plumes and cords at that time. I had a serious affair with the RG 8 Military C series some 22 years ago, going through every document in the 2000 volumes. Memory is a devilish thing but my poor old befuddled mind says "belgique" for Incorporated Militia in July 1814. If the question of proper headgear is an urgent one, I would strongly suggest that someone spend a few of days in the archives to check the reports on items received in Quebec and forwarded to Upper Canada at whatever period .
      > > >
      > > > Ron
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Tim Pickles
      Actually the configuration of 1812 pattern Lt. Co. caps is still rather murky as it seems there was quite an amount of regimental latitude allowed. Green plume
      Message 2 of 17 , May 8, 2011
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        Actually the configuration of 1812 pattern Lt. Co. caps is still rather murky as it seems there was quite an amount of regimental latitude allowed. Green plume certainly but other than that the cockade sometimes had a bugle horn rather than a regimental button, or the button with a bugle horn below it, green cords are often shown. Also there is an extant shako of the 33rd with provenance to Waterloo which has a cut out brass 33 over a bugle horn on the front rather than the rococo plate so it seems to be a matter of individual research.
        Incidentally on the shako's of the 43rd it would seem that the officers at least had rather a curious plume which narrowed towards the top so as to look like small Christmas trees!


        Aye,


        Tim





        -----Original Message-----
        From: Forrest Harris <forrestharris@...>
        To: WarOf1812 <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sun, May 8, 2011 7:16 am
        Subject: Re: 1812 Belgic and Stovepipe





        Right you are--I confused the 41st with the either the 51st or 43rd--don't know why. So Belgic caps with a green plume?









        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • shayna121
        General Order Number 282 - 28 December, 1814. His Royal Highness the Prince Regent having been pleased to command that the caps of the Rifle and Light
        Message 3 of 17 , May 8, 2011
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          "General Order Number 282 - 28 December, 1814.

          His Royal Highness the Prince Regent having been pleased to command that the caps of the Rifle and Light Infantry Corps and the Light Infantry Companies of the Regiments shall have a bugle horn, with the number of the Regiment below it instead of the brass plate worn by the rest of the Infantry."

          The 33rd shako as described would be within regulations for Waterloo, but the Shako plate would still be worn by Light Infantry Companies at Lundy's Lane, with a green tuft to distinguish them. The Light Company of the Royal Scots had green cords, but I couldn't speak for the 41st.

          Chris McKay


          --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Tim Pickles <BritcomHMP@...> wrote:
          >
          > Actually the configuration of 1812 pattern Lt. Co. caps is still rather murky as it seems there was quite an amount of regimental latitude allowed. Green plume certainly but other than that the cockade sometimes had a bugle horn rather than a regimental button, or the button with a bugle horn below it, green cords are often shown. Also there is an extant shako of the 33rd with provenance to Waterloo which has a cut out brass 33 over a bugle horn on the front rather than the rococo plate so it seems to be a matter of individual research.
          > Incidentally on the shako's of the 43rd it would seem that the officers at least had rather a curious plume which narrowed towards the top so as to look like small Christmas trees!
          >
          >
          > Aye,
          >
          >
          > Tim
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Forrest Harris <forrestharris@...>
          > To: WarOf1812 <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Sun, May 8, 2011 7:16 am
          > Subject: Re: 1812 Belgic and Stovepipe
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Right you are--I confused the 41st with the either the 51st or 43rd--don't know why. So Belgic caps with a green plume?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • James Yaworsky
          ... I don t think it is that simple for the 41st. There is no doubt that they *should* have had Belgics. However, the situation is complicated by a number of
          Message 4 of 17 , May 9, 2011
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            --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Forrest Harris" <forrestharris@...> wrote:
            >
            > Right you are--I confused the 41st with the either the 51st or 43rd--don't know why. So Belgic caps with a green plume?
            >
            > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "shayna121" <PrivateCannon@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Tom and Ray would have more details than I would on the 41st, but I'm confused by your theory that the 41st would have had stovepipes.


            I don't think it is that simple for the 41st. There is no doubt that they *should* have had Belgics. However, the situation is complicated by a number of factors.

            First, the 41st light company in the 1814 campaign was an amalgam of members of the 2nd battalion and the 1st.

            The 2nd battalion members came over in 1813 right from Britain so undoubtedly had Belgic shakos.

            The 2nd battalion only had 500 men in it, and 100 were kept back at Quebec because they were judged to be "boys". So the 2nd battalion's light company was probably fairly small.

            Meanwhile, the 1st battalion's light company was sent to the Right Division and participated in Frenchtown, Fort Meigs, Fort Stephenson, and Moraviantown. Lots of casualties and hard service. Did they have Belgics? No direct evidence on this that I'm aware of, though there might be something buried in the routine paperwork of the QM department. We believe they started the war in stovepipes.

            The thing is, the Right Division suffered from serious supply issues. There wasn't enough "lift" available to satisfy all its needs for food (along with those of the Native Allies at Fort Amherstburg), let alone less vital items.

            It is conceivable that the 1st battalion companies didn't get belgic shakos when on the Detroit frontier. It is conceivable that they didn't get belgic shakos in time for the 1814 campaign. It is conceivable that the amalgamated Light Company of the 41st at Lundy's Lane had men with belgic shakos, and men still in stovepipes.

            It seems more likely, though, that over the winter of 1813-14, the survivors of the 1st battalion were issued new regulation gear, which would presumably have included belgic shakos.

            Unfortunately, Shadrach Byfield, of the 1st battalion's Light Company, who served at Lundy's Lane with the amalgamated Light Company of Captain Glew, doesn't provide uniform details in his account.

            Jim Yaworsky
          • Tom Hurlbut
            This discussion has left me wondering.. When the 4th took part in the Chesapeake campaign, and later the New Orleans campaign, does anyone know what the light
            Message 5 of 17 , May 9, 2011
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              This discussion has left me wondering..



              When the 4th took part in the Chesapeake campaign, and later the New Orleans
              campaign, does anyone know what the light company would have worn? Belgic
              shakos for sure but would they have worn regimental plates, or bugles, and
              would the cockade badge have been bugles or a regimental button?



              And then later at Waterloo, would the hat be the same?



              I've made lots of assumptions (as we put together our impression) but
              "assuming" has its risks.



              Curious..



              Tom Hurlbut







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tim Pickles
              The last question is the easiest to answer. Whatever the configuration was at New Orleans, that was what was used at New Orleans. There was no time to
              Message 6 of 17 , May 9, 2011
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                The last question is the easiest to answer. Whatever the configuration was at New Orleans, that was what was used at New Orleans. There was no time to reconfigure the shako's before going off to Belgium. The other information is a matter of research but the Reynolds manuscript in the PRO might have something.


                Aye,


                Tim




                -----Original Message-----
                From: Tom Hurlbut <hurlbut8646@...>
                To: WarOf1812 <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Mon, May 9, 2011 3:39 pm
                Subject: RE: 1812 Belgic and Stovepipe





                This discussion has left me wondering..

                When the 4th took part in the Chesapeake campaign, and later the New Orleans
                campaign, does anyone know what the light company would have worn? Belgic
                shakos for sure but would they have worn regimental plates, or bugles, and
                would the cockade badge have been bugles or a regimental button?

                And then later at Waterloo, would the hat be the same?

                I've made lots of assumptions (as we put together our impression) but
                "assuming" has its risks.

                Curious..

                Tom Hurlbut

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Colonel
                While the Historical Records of the Fourth Regiment of Foot do not mention types of headgear during the American campaign 1814-1815, it does state the
                Message 7 of 17 , May 11, 2011
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                  While the Historical Records of the Fourth Regiment of Foot do not mention types of headgear during the American campaign 1814-1815, it does state the following concerning the Battle of New Orleans.
                  "The King's Own had upwards of four hundred men killed and wounded in this desperate service,..." It then lists the officers wounded. The Regiment was then involved in action at Mobile forcing Ft. Bowyer to surrender on the 12th of February allowing,"...the second American regiment of the line having marched out with the honours of war..." delivering its arms and colours to the King's Own. The regiment was then sent back to England arriving at Portsmouth on the 16th of May, 1815. The King's Own were immediately ordered to Ostend combining the effective men of the 2nd Battalion with the 1st Battalion.
                  While not drawing any conclusions, your thoughts might ponder:
                  1) Were they reenforced with any new men in May?
                  2) Were they issued any new gear after their hard campaign in America?
                  i.e. new shakos and with what insignia?

                  Just thought you might want this bit of data in case you did not have it. It also tells that the Fourth lost one hundred and thirty four men killed and wounded at Waterloo, not anywhere as bad as at New Orleans.

                  Tom



                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Hurlbut" <hurlbut8646@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > This discussion has left me wondering..
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > When the 4th took part in the Chesapeake campaign, and later the New Orleans
                  > campaign, does anyone know what the light company would have worn? Belgic
                  > shakos for sure but would they have worn regimental plates, or bugles, and
                  > would the cockade badge have been bugles or a regimental button?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > And then later at Waterloo, would the hat be the same?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I've made lots of assumptions (as we put together our impression) but
                  > "assuming" has its risks.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Curious..
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Tom Hurlbut
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Bob
                  Hello All Not sure about the 4th, but the 21st ran parallel through this period. We arrived in the Chesapeake from Italy in stovepipes and summer clothing.
                  Message 8 of 17 , May 12, 2011
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                    Hello All
                    Not sure about the 4th, but the 21st ran parallel through this period. We arrived in the Chesapeake from Italy in stovepipes and summer clothing. After these battles, we were transported to Jamaica to be re-equipped. This is where we received our gray wool trousers and belgics, etc. We went to New Orleans and then to the Florida forts, too. Upon returning, we landed in England and missed Waterloo by about a week - serving in the occupation forces. I'm not sure this helps
                    Bob Boynton
                    21st RNBF
                    Kannapolis, NC



                    > When the 4th took part in the Chesapeake campaign, and later the New Orleans
                    > campaign, does anyone know what the light company would have worn? Belgic
                    > shakos
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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