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RE: 1812 Not so white guys with guns!

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  • Ray Hobbs
    Fascinating, Kevin:Who did the initial analysis of the skulls? I assume you are quoting from their report. I would be interested to see what criteria were used
    Message 1 of 5 , Apr 1, 2011
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      Fascinating, Kevin:Who did the initial analysis of the skulls? I assume you are quoting from their report. I would be interested to see what criteria were used to determine the ethnicity of the skulls.
      Not entirely unrelated - for some research on ancient warfare I came across the following historical study.
      E.S. Gurdjian, "The Treatment of Penetrating Wounds of the Brain Sustained in Warfare: An Historical Study" Journal of Neurosurgery vol. 39 (1974), pp. 157-167.
      The article covers the earliest Egyptian medical records to the present day. It would be interesting to see if there is evidence in your collection of surgical procedures, or were they all killed outright?
      RegardsRay

      To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
      From: kevin.windsor@...
      Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 16:12:17 +0000
      Subject: 1812 Not so white guys with guns!




























      Greetings all, I am going over some old reports here in the office and I just finished reading one that we did in 1993 on the 11 skulls that were here in the collection of the Lundy's Lane Historical Museum. Awesome stuff!!



      Here are some of the interesting bits...



      "It should be noted that three of the skulls showed definite evidence of perimortem cranial trauma. These include L-22 which had an entrance wound in the central frontal bone and an exit wound in the right occipital, L-16A which showed a large entrance wound in the right frontal, and L-23 which possesses a large open woundin the right parietal bone. In all three cases the size and shape of the traumatic wounds were very clearly related to fracturing by a high force object."



      "When the datasheets are examined it is clear that most features recorded on these skulls fall into the white European category. The only possible exception is skull L-16 which shows some features observed in Black populations"



      Lastly, while I was examining the data for one of the incomplete skulls it shows characteristics of being "Asian" but more European features.



      The down side to all of this is that they were just "dug up" so we have no way of knowing if they are British, Canadian or American, where they were found on the battlefield, or what was found with them. But all were interred together to rest!



      I am looking forward to see what else comes out of this!



      Kevin Windsor


















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • charliequ2@gmail.com
      I too, am keenly interested, please. Professional curiosity.. CQ Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ... From: Ray Hobbs Sender:
      Message 2 of 5 , Apr 1, 2011
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        I too, am keenly interested, please. Professional curiosity.. CQ
        Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Ray Hobbs <ray.hobbs@...>
        Sender: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 12:47:43
        To: <warof1812@yahoogroups.com>
        Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: 1812 Not so white guys with guns!


        Fascinating, Kevin:Who did the initial analysis of the skulls? I assume you are quoting from their report. I would be interested to see what criteria were used to determine the ethnicity of the skulls.
        Not entirely unrelated - for some research on ancient warfare I came across the following historical study.
        E.S. Gurdjian, "The Treatment of Penetrating Wounds of the Brain Sustained in Warfare: An Historical Study" Journal of Neurosurgery vol. 39 (1974), pp. 157-167.
        The article covers the earliest Egyptian medical records to the present day. It would be interesting to see if there is evidence in your collection of surgical procedures, or were they all killed outright?
        RegardsRay

        To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
        From: kevin.windsor@...
        Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 16:12:17 +0000
        Subject: 1812 Not so white guys with guns!




























        Greetings all, I am going over some old reports here in the office and I just finished reading one that we did in 1993 on the 11 skulls that were here in the collection of the Lundy's Lane Historical Museum. Awesome stuff!!



        Here are some of the interesting bits...



        "It should be noted that three of the skulls showed definite evidence of perimortem cranial trauma. These include L-22 which had an entrance wound in the central frontal bone and an exit wound in the right occipital, L-16A which showed a large entrance wound in the right frontal, and L-23 which possesses a large open woundin the right parietal bone. In all three cases the size and shape of the traumatic wounds were very clearly related to fracturing by a high force object."



        "When the datasheets are examined it is clear that most features recorded on these skulls fall into the white European category. The only possible exception is skull L-16 which shows some features observed in Black populations"



        Lastly, while I was examining the data for one of the incomplete skulls it shows characteristics of being "Asian" but more European features.



        The down side to all of this is that they were just "dug up" so we have no way of knowing if they are British, Canadian or American, where they were found on the battlefield, or what was found with them. But all were interred together to rest!



        I am looking forward to see what else comes out of this!



        Kevin Windsor


















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • Craig Williams
        Kevin.. out of curiosity, when were these reports written? Craig ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 5 , Apr 1, 2011
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          Kevin.. out of curiosity, when were these reports written?

          Craig
          On 1-Apr-11, at 12:12 PM, Kevin wrote:

          > Greetings all, I am going over some old reports here in the office
          > and I just finished reading one that we did in 1993 on the 11 skulls
          > that were here in the collection of the Lundy's Lane Historical
          > Museum. Awesome stuff!!
          >
          > Here are some of the interesting bits...
          >
          > "It should be noted that three of the skulls showed definite
          > evidence of perimortem cranial trauma. These include L-22 which had
          > an entrance wound in the central frontal bone and an exit wound in
          > the right occipital, L-16A which showed a large entrance wound in
          > the right frontal, and L-23 which possesses a large open woundin the
          > right parietal bone. In all three cases the size and shape of the
          > traumatic wounds were very clearly related to fracturing by a high
          > force object."
          >
          > "When the datasheets are examined it is clear that most features
          > recorded on these skulls fall into the white European category. The
          > only possible exception is skull L-16 which shows some features
          > observed in Black populations"
          >
          > Lastly, while I was examining the data for one of the incomplete
          > skulls it shows characteristics of being "Asian" but more European
          > features.
          >
          > The down side to all of this is that they were just "dug up" so we
          > have no way of knowing if they are British, Canadian or American,
          > where they were found on the battlefield, or what was found with
          > them. But all were interred together to rest!
          >
          > I am looking forward to see what else comes out of this!
          >
          > Kevin Windsor
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Kevin
          Ray, Charlie, Craig. The report was written in 1993 by Dr. Shelley Saunders of McMaster University. The study was conducted because it was rumoured that the
          Message 4 of 5 , Apr 1, 2011
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            Ray, Charlie, Craig. The report was written in 1993 by Dr. Shelley Saunders of McMaster University. The study was conducted because it was rumoured that the bones were native and not soldiers killed at Lundy's Lane. The skulls were measured and analyzed based on 35 different measurements.

            Sadly, I never got to see the skulls and there are no deatiled pictures of them. (There were also several leg bones!)

            As to how they died, my best guess is that they were KIA. The wounded were taken back to Ft George and worked on there and the dead were buried or burned.

            I have been learning a lot about skulls today!!

            KW

            --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Ray Hobbs <ray.hobbs@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Fascinating, Kevin:Who did the initial analysis of the skulls? I assume you are quoting from their report. I would be interested to see what criteria were used to determine the ethnicity of the skulls.
            > Not entirely unrelated - for some research on ancient warfare I came across the following historical study.
            > E.S. Gurdjian, "The Treatment of Penetrating Wounds of the Brain Sustained in Warfare: An Historical Study" Journal of Neurosurgery vol. 39 (1974), pp. 157-167.
            > The article covers the earliest Egyptian medical records to the present day. It would be interesting to see if there is evidence in your collection of surgical procedures, or were they all killed outright?
            > RegardsRay
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