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Re: First Nation Actors, Re-enactors and Riders Search Enquiry

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  • a10rca
    Hold on now. This is an attempt at a documentary but Hollywood has virtually recreated everything in world history, often changing history in the process. The
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 18, 2010
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      Hold on now.

      This is an attempt at a documentary but Hollywood has virtually recreated everything in world history, often changing history in the process. The Great Escape, The Patriot, U-571, Master and Commander, certainly entertaining, some already discussed in this forum, but not exactly history.

      Why not let people in Britain, India, Brazil or South Africa make, or make up, other people's history? Something like:

      'Sitting Bull was the Secretary of Homeland Security for the Lacotah Nation. The enemy were not legitimate combatants and did not fall under the accepted rules of warfare for the Lacotah people.'

      There are also some 1812ers of Native ancestry who might have a personal connection to this period, just as there are those who portray different periods in American or British history.

      Jim



      >
      > You have got to be kidding!
      >  
      > First of all, why would a UK organization even attempt something of this nature? It makes about as much sense as trying to film Robin Hood in Southern California.
      >  
      > Second, how in the world are you going to "recreate isolated elements of THAT battle unless you have terrian exactly like the battlefield area itself. A docu-drama, to be any good at all, has to include railroad developers and gold miners who were not anywhere near that battlefield at the time but were the causes for the whole affair.
      >  
      > Third, why send this message to this group? Why not contact the South Dakota film commission?
      >  
      > This has got to be a joke!
      >  
      > Richard Lytle 
      >
      > --- On Mon, 6/14/10, parthenon0194 <jo.clark@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: parthenon0194 <jo.clark@...>
      > Subject: 1812 First Nation Actors, Re-enactors and Riders Search Enquiry
      > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Monday, June 14, 2010, 6:44 AM
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      > Dear War of 1812 yahoo group,
      > Firstly, thank you for letting me join the group.
      > I am contacting you from Parthenon Entertainment in the UK. We are currently producing a history docu-drama series for National Geographic Channel.
      >
      > One episode focuses on the truth behind the legend of Sitting Bull and the Battle of Little Big Horn.
      >
      > We aim to recontruct isolated elements of the Battle - for this we're looking for First Nation riders, actors or re-enactors to authentically represent the Lakota people.
      >
      > We're in the initial stages and trying to find a suitable location that can successfully respect the culture and traditions of the Lakota. We're considering the US, Canada, Europe and the UK - all with their own advantages and disadvantages for the production requirements.
      >
      > I was wondering if anyone here in the group could suggest or knows of any suitable recommendations or contacts that could help?
      >
      > Thank you for your time,
      > I look forward to hearing your thoughts,
      > Many Kind Regards
      > Jo Clark
      > Drama Researcher
      > Parthenon Entertainment
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • peter monahan
      From: jhill@niagaraparks.com wrote: Hold on now. This is an attempt at a documentary but Hollywood has virtually recreated everything in world history, often
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 21, 2010
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        From: jhill@... wrote:

        Hold on now.

        This is an attempt at a documentary but Hollywood has virtually recreated everything in world history, often changing history in the process. The Great Escape, The Patriot, U-571, Master and Commander, certainly entertaining, some already discussed in this forum, but not exactly history.

        Why not let people in Britain, India, Brazil or South Africa make, or make up, other people's history? Something like:
        'Sitting Bull was the Secretary of Homeland Security for the Lacotah Nation. The enemy were not legitimate combatants and did not fall under the accepted rules of warfare for the Lacotah people.'

        There are also some 1812ers of Native ancestry who might have a personal connection to this period, just as there are those who portray different periods in American or British history.


        Jim




        Well said, sir!


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ian Gardner
        Richard, The way television production is typically done these days, no one broadcaster fronts anything like the full cost of a production. Therefore,
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 21, 2010
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          Richard,

          The way television production is typically done these days, no one
          broadcaster fronts anything like the full cost of a production.
          Therefore, broadcast fees from various countries and funding agencies
          are usually involved, each with various expectations of the production
          company depending on what aspect of the production is being handled
          within their borders. Telefilm and various Provincial & municipal
          funding agencies here in Canada do exactly that.

          So for the production companies, it becomes a juggling act of striking
          the best (or least bad) balance between the pros and cons of each
          jurisdiction, finding similar locations in different countries that can
          (to one degree or another) fulfill the production requisites, ensuring
          that there's available talent that can work in that jurisdiction, etc.

          Truthfully, "terrain exactly like the battlefield" isn't really that
          necessary. For better or worse, close enough coupled with good shot
          framing and editing will do the trick for the vast majority of people
          who'll ever see the production. Ideally, shooting in or on the original
          location would be preferable. However, shooting location's just one
          consideration among many and if other considerations trump, one that can
          be worked around.

          Don't shoot the messenger. :-)

          Ian

          -----Original Message-----
          From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of richard lytle
          Sent: June 15, 2010 10:57 AM
          To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Bulk] Re: 1812 First Nation Actors, Re-enactors and Riders
          Search Enquiry


          You have got to be kidding!

          First of all, why would a UK organization even attempt something of this
          nature? It makes about as much sense as trying to film Robin Hood in
          Southern California.

          Second, how in the world are you going to "recreate isolated elements of
          THAT battle unless you have terrian exactly like the battlefield area
          itself. A docu-drama, to be any good at all, has to include railroad
          developers and gold miners who were not anywhere near that battlefield
          at the time but were the causes for the whole affair.

          Third, why send this message to this group? Why not contact the South
          Dakota film commission?

          This has got to be a joke!

          Richard Lytle

          --- On Mon, 6/14/10, parthenon0194 <jo.clark@...
          <mailto:jo.clark%40parthenonentertainment.com> > wrote:

          From: parthenon0194 <jo.clark@...
          <mailto:jo.clark%40parthenonentertainment.com> >
          Subject: 1812 First Nation Actors, Re-enactors and Riders Search Enquiry
          To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Monday, June 14, 2010, 6:44 AM



          Dear War of 1812 yahoo group,
          Firstly, thank you for letting me join the group.
          I am contacting you from Parthenon Entertainment in the UK. We are
          currently producing a history docu-drama series for National Geographic
          Channel.

          One episode focuses on the truth behind the legend of Sitting Bull and
          the Battle of Little Big Horn.

          We aim to recontruct isolated elements of the Battle - for this we're
          looking for First Nation riders, actors or re-enactors to authentically
          represent the Lakota people.

          We're in the initial stages and trying to find a suitable location that
          can successfully respect the culture and traditions of the Lakota. We're
          considering the US, Canada, Europe and the UK - all with their own
          advantages and disadvantages for the production requirements.

          I was wondering if anyone here in the group could suggest or knows of
          any suitable recommendations or contacts that could help?

          Thank you for your time,
          I look forward to hearing your thoughts,
          Many Kind Regards
          Jo Clark
          Drama Researcher
          Parthenon Entertainment





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • gary beauregard
          A very nice post but when the film Braveheart, failed to place the battle of Sterling Bridge, on a bridge, it left something to be desired.   Beau ...
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 21, 2010
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            A very nice post but when the film Braveheart, failed to place the battle of Sterling Bridge, on a bridge, it left something to be desired.
             
            Beau

            --- On Mon, 6/21/10, Ian Gardner <igardner@...> wrote:


            Richard,

            The way television production is typically done these days, no one
            broadcaster fronts anything like the full cost of a production. [big snip]
          • Ian Gardner
            Granted and in terms of budget, you re comparing apples and oranges, Beau. Typically, the productions such as started this particular thread amount to a
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 21, 2010
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              Granted and in terms of budget, you're comparing apples and oranges,
              Beau. Typically, the productions such as started this particular thread
              amount to a rounding error or the Craft Services on a production the
              likes of "Braveheart". What reason the producers of" Braveheart" had for
              not placing the battle on a bridge, I know not but am less likely to
              give them latitude than to a TV-series recreation of the same. The
              denizens of this list (and others of a similar nature) have the benefit
              of holding out for authenticity above and beyond all else. You hold this
              time period and circumstance dear and that's a luxury you can hold
              ultimate because you pay the price (in monetary terms, discomfort and
              other aspects that I don't have a clue of) for being period-accurate. As
              I said earlier, those considerations don't transfer on transmission to
              the small screen. These producers are trying to please a half-dozen or
              so masters and will take the shortcuts that allow them to give the
              greatest overall pleasure to the viewing populace at large.

              I recognise that even the freshest newbie first-year re-enactor here has
              me beat personally in terms of walking the walk vs. talking the talk.
              I'm interested in the stories of the War and would compare poorly to
              anyone who has strapped on the uniform of their favourite unit and put
              in the time to accurately portray them. Joe and Sally Smith don't (at
              least not in terms of recognising or appreciating shortcomings). But are
              Joe and Sally better served being unmindful of a story in general
              because someone balked at a few corners being cut and maybe a show not
              getting done at all?

              What trumps in the great scheme?

              Ian

              -----Original Message-----
              From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of gary beauregard
              Sent: June 21, 2010 9:01 AM
              To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Bulk] Re: 1812 First Nation Actors, Re-enactors and Riders
              Search Enquiry


              A very nice post but when the film Braveheart, failed to place the
              battle of Sterling Bridge, on a bridge, it left something to be desired.

              Beau

              --- On Mon, 6/21/10, Ian Gardner <igardner@...
              <mailto:igardner%40rogers.com> > wrote:

              Richard,

              The way television production is typically done these days, no one
              broadcaster fronts anything like the full cost of a production. [big
              snip]



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • richard lytle
              Dear 1812er s,   Seeing as how I am taking some heat over my disbelief this topic just this once I am going to defend myself by pointing out a few facts that
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 22, 2010
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                Dear 1812er's,
                 
                Seeing as how I am taking some heat over my disbelief this topic just this once I am going to defend myself by pointing out a few facts that you may not want to consider.
                 
                 1). Having a BS in Broadcasting I fully understand the strengths and weaknessess of television and the advantages and dis-advantages it has compared to the film industry.
                 2). The distances traveled and the difficulties of communication for both Indian and Army groups required that commanders on both sides of the battle "think in the saddle" so to speak and preplanning was done in only the most general of terms.
                 3). The distances between the Reno-Benteen battlefield, Weir Point and the Custer battlefield are measured in miles and the only trees in the area are along the river bed.
                 4). The Indians in the camp did not know who was in command of the attacking force.
                 5). Custer and his troops were unaware of the overwhelming numbers of Indians they are attacking and totally uninformed as to what tribes, bands or family clans were or were not present. If he would have known he was about to attack 4 or 5,000 warriors instead of the 800 or less he expected to find I'm sure he would have done things differently.
                6). Sitting Bull was himself only a medicine man which is about the same as saying a politican. He was not the leader of a warrior society and did not then have the same status as say Crazy Horse, Gall and others.
                7). Sitting Bull did not leave the villages to visit the battle site until after the battle was over.
                8).
                 
                A docu-drama means telling dramatic events accurately! And considering the unique characteristics of the terrian, the opponets involved, the personalities of the military types involved, the isolation of the region and the political environment within which all of these events transpired, there is ample material for a good docu-drama. In fact, there is so much that I am tempted to pull our my copy of the 1964 film "The Glory Guys" just to remind myself of how it is supposed to be done.
                 
                Therefore, I repeat my suggestion of making contacts with the South Dakota Film Commission. They have lists of local qualified people, groups and suppliers which can make of break this type of production.


                --- On Mon, 6/21/10, peter monahan <petemonahan@...> wrote:


                From: peter monahan <petemonahan@...>
                Subject: RE: 1812 Re: First Nation Actors, Re-enactors and Riders Search Enquiry
                To: warof1812@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, June 21, 2010, 8:02 AM


                 




                From: jhill@... wrote:

                Hold on now.

                This is an attempt at a documentary but Hollywood has virtually recreated everything in world history, often changing history in the process. The Great Escape, The Patriot, U-571, Master and Commander, certainly entertaining, some already discussed in this forum, but not exactly history.

                Why not let people in Britain, India, Brazil or South Africa make, or make up, other people's history? Something like:
                'Sitting Bull was the Secretary of Homeland Security for the Lacotah Nation. The enemy were not legitimate combatants and did not fall under the accepted rules of warfare for the Lacotah people.'

                There are also some 1812ers of Native ancestry who might have a personal connection to this period, just as there are those who portray different periods in American or British history.

                Jim

                Well said, sir!


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • larrylozon
                Richard What has Custer, Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Gall and others have to do with the War of 1812? This is a War of 1812 Yahoo Group Yrs., L2 ... ... Seeing
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 22, 2010
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                  Richard

                  What has Custer, Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Gall and others have to do with the War of 1812?

                  This is a War of 1812 Yahoo Group

                  Yrs.,
                  L2

                  --- richard lytle wrote:

                  ... Seeing as how I am taking some heat over my disbelief this topic just this once I am going to defend myself by pointing out a few facts that you may not want to consider...
                • richard lytle
                  larry,   That was exactly my point in the first place!   Richard ... From: larrylozon Subject: 1812 First Nation Actors, Re-enactors
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 22, 2010
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                    larry,
                     
                    That was exactly my point in the first place!
                     
                    Richard

                    --- On Tue, 6/22/10, larrylozon <larrylozon@...> wrote:


                    From: larrylozon <larrylozon@...>
                    Subject: 1812 First Nation Actors, Re-enactors and Riders Search Enquiry
                    To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, June 22, 2010, 11:40 AM


                     



                    Richard

                    What has Custer, Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Gall and others have to do with the War of 1812?

                    This is a War of 1812 Yahoo Group

                    Yrs.,
                    L2

                    --- richard lytle wrote:

                    ... Seeing as how I am taking some heat over my disbelief this topic just this once I am going to defend myself by pointing out a few facts that you may not want to consider...











                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • larrylozon
                    Then maybe we should drop this topic ( First Nation Actors, Re-enactors and Riders Search Enquiry ) in favour of USA hunting frocks on Crown Militia Does
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 22, 2010
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                      Then maybe we should drop this topic
                      ( First Nation Actors, Re-enactors and Riders Search Enquiry )
                      in favour of USA hunting frocks on Crown Militia

                      Does anyone have definite documentation that Crown Militia wore
                      hunting frocks during the War of 1812?


                      Yrs.,
                      L2


                      --- richard lytle wrote:

                      ... That was exactly my point in the first place!...
                    • JohnH
                      ... A very nice post but when the film Braveheart, failed to place the battle of Sterling Bridge, on a bridge, it left something to be desired.   Beau Agreed,
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jun 22, 2010
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                        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, gary beauregard <beau@...> wrote:
                        A very nice post but when the film Braveheart, failed to place the battle of Sterling Bridge, on a bridge, it left something to be desired.
                         
                        Beau

                        Agreed, it was disapointing that they didn't portray "The Battle of Stirling Bridge" as The Battle of Stirling Bridge, however as a movie, "Braveheart" was a magnificant show piece of Austrailian history!!!
                        Regards
                        John Harris
                      • Victor Suthren
                        Perhaps we can hope Mel Gibson doesn t convince someone to make an 1812 movie, which would undoubtedly have the repeating Gibson main themes: Gibson the nice
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jun 22, 2010
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                          Perhaps we can hope Mel Gibson doesn't convince someone to make an 1812 movie, which would undoubtedly have the repeating Gibson main themes: Gibson the nice guy screwed by the Brits and either sacrificing himself or exacting a bloody revenge.... (Gallipoli, The Bounty, Braveheart, The Patriot).

                          Vic Suthren

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: JohnH
                          To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 3:42 PM
                          Subject: Re: 1812 First Nation Actors, Re-enactors and Riders Search Enquiry





                          --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, gary beauregard <beau@...> wrote:
                          A very nice post but when the film Braveheart, failed to place the battle of Sterling Bridge, on a bridge, it left something to be desired.

                          Beau

                          Agreed, it was disapointing that they didn't portray "The Battle of Stirling Bridge" as The Battle of Stirling Bridge, however as a movie, "Braveheart" was a magnificant show piece of Austrailian history!!!
                          Regards
                          John Harris






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • (no author)
                          Quite frankly, I would love to see a good fanciful hollywood-style movie on the War of 1812 and not another documentary which mostly history-interested people
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jun 22, 2010
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                            Quite frankly, I would love to see a good fanciful hollywood-style movie on the War of 1812 and not another documentary which mostly history-interested people will watch. It's been long overdue, and we need something more then how the Americans decisively won the war and kicked the British out. (Oh wait, didn't somebody say this in the news last week in response to "Little people"). The year 1814 in the Niagara Peninsula should be quite the story line to satisfy both sides. Oh well, wishful thinking, but the time couldn't be more proper as the bi-centennial approaches.

                            regards,

                            John Sek

                            Tuesday, June 22, 2010, 4:10:38 PM, you wrote:

                            >

                            Perhaps we can hope Mel Gibson doesn't convince someone to make an 1812 movie, which would undoubtedly have the repeating Gibson main themes: Gibson the nice guy screwed by the Brits and either sacrificing himself or exacting a bloody revenge.... (Gallipoli, The Bounty, Braveheart, The Patriot).

                            Vic Suthren

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: JohnH
                            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 3:42 PM
                            Subject: Re: 1812 First Nation Actors, Re-enactors and Riders Search Enquiry

                            --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, gary beauregard <beau@...> wrote:
                            A very nice post but when the film Braveheart, failed to place the battle of Sterling Bridge, on a bridge, it left something to be desired.

                            Beau

                            Agreed, it was disapointing that they didn't portray "The Battle of Stirling Bridge" as The Battle of Stirling Bridge, however as a movie, "Braveheart" was a magnificant show piece of Austrailian history!!!
                            Regards
                            John Harris

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                            --
                            Best regards,
                            John mailto:jsek@...

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • lets_go_team
                            With respect, I don t believe your qualifications on rendering an opinion are the objectionable point on this thread. I believe, Sir, your harsh and
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jun 24, 2010
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                              With respect,

                              I don't believe your qualifications on rendering an opinion are the objectionable point on this thread. I believe, Sir, your harsh and condescending tone are at issue here.

                              The individual initiating this post did so with a polite request to a group with far better resources at its disposal than she. She was merely, I believe, asking for assistance and direction. She was not inviting such a rude response. I ask the moderator to consider if your response could be considered "flaming", as I am unfamiliar with that term.

                              Regardless of your personal view of the project, this person was acknowledging the considerable expertise of this group, and coming to us for help with a project and networking. It behooves us to offer what help we may. Frankly, your opinion of their project is irrelevant. It will move forward with or without you. But if we indulge your righteous indignation, instead of responding with assistance, it sullies the reputation of us all. Rude behaviour is indefensable.

                              I believe an apology to Ms Clark is in order.

                              Yours,
                              Sue Draper

                              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@...> wrote:
                              <snip>
                              Dear 1812er's,
                              > Seeing as how I am taking some heat over my disbelief this topic just this once I am going to defend myself by pointing out a few facts that you may not want to consider.<
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.