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Re: Rifles----Blunderbuss ?!?!

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  • Annette and Lloyd Gower
    I believe the commanders if having a choice armed their men riflemen or not as they saw fit . battle of chilicothe ,riflemen fought with muskets , No mention
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 1, 2000
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      I believe the commanders if having a choice armed their men riflemen or not
      as they saw fit .
      battle of chilicothe ,riflemen fought with muskets , No mention of carrying
      both
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <BritcomHMP@...>
      To: <WarOf1812@onelist.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 11:26 AM
      Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Rifles----Blunderbuss ?!?!


      > From: BritcomHMP@...
      >
      > In a message dated 1/31/2000 7:26:36 PM Central Standard Time,
      > agower@... writes:
      >
      > << Their were times riflemen were deployed with muskets , we are not
      > unfamiliar to buck and ball , and understand not wanting to be on the
      > receiving end , blunderbuss>>
      >
      > But if a 'Rifleman' is deployed with a musket he surely ceases to be a
      > rifleman by definition, QED!
      > Or are we saying that a 'merkin rifleman carried two weapons?
      >
      > Cheers
      >
      > Tim
      >
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    • Roger Fuller
      ... not ... carrying ... Barring supply problems, which were considerable in the US Army as well as militias during the War of 1812..... Q.: When is a rifleman
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 1, 2000
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        >In a message dated 2/1/2000 5:04:47 PM Central Standard Time,
        >agower@... writes:
        >
        ><< I believe the commanders if having a choice armed their men riflemen or
        not
        > as they saw fit .
        > battle of chilicothe ,riflemen fought with muskets , No mention of
        carrying
        > both >>


        Barring supply problems, which were considerable in the US Army as well as
        militias during the War of 1812.....


        Q.: When is a rifleman not a rifleman?

        A: When he has no rifle.

        His range and accuracy acquired through the use and practice with a rifle
        are negated. A smoothbore musket of any barrel length can never compare in
        efficiency to a rifle. Stick the rifleman out in front of the enemy or even
        in a concealed position, and ask him to achieve the same results with a
        Springfield/Charleville/Bess and he'd have better luck with a catapult or a
        crossbow.

        Riflemen WITH rifles could achieve much more due to special training in
        marksmanship, concealment, as well as utilising the firearm's range. If the
        enemy got too close in too large numbers with their shorter ranged muskets,
        then it became, "Feets' don' fail me now". Foolhardiness got a rifleman
        killed- best to run like hell, so as to fight again, and live.

        Riflemen WITHOUT rifles were a waste of money and training, and are nothing
        better or worse than musketmen, hurling salvo after salvo of ill-aimed lead
        at the enemy in the hopes of hitting something, somewhere.

        Roger
        3/95th (Rifles)
      • BritcomHMP@aol.com
        In a message dated 2/1/2000 5:04:47 PM Central Standard Time, agower@bignet.net writes:
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 1, 2000
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          In a message dated 2/1/2000 5:04:47 PM Central Standard Time,
          agower@... writes:

          << I believe the commanders if having a choice armed their men riflemen or not
          as they saw fit .
          battle of chilicothe ,riflemen fought with muskets , No mention of carrying
          both >>

          Well, I still say if a soldier is not carrying a rifle he is not a rifleman.
          Unless they worked on the same basis as many Civil War cavalry units. :-)

          Cheers

          Tim
        • Roger Fuller
          Ach...but Craig- zometimes a lightbulb is chust a lightbulb. Now... vere are mein tsigars?.... :^) *cough* Roger
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 1, 2000
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            Ach...but Craig- zometimes a lightbulb is chust a lightbulb. Now... vere are
            mein tsigars?.... :^)

            *cough*
            Roger
          • Kevin Windsor
            ... rifleman. ... Dismounted Dragoons. Sounds like military cutbacks to me!
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 1, 2000
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              > Well, I still say if a soldier is not carrying a rifle he is not a
              rifleman.
              > Unless they worked on the same basis as many Civil War cavalry units.
              :-)
              >
              > Cheers
              >
              > Tim

              Dismounted Dragoons. Sounds like military cutbacks to me!
            • Len Heidebrecht
              Roger, A bit of a broad statement there, sir. Even armed with a musket, a rifleman and his file partner are well trained and act as a team. No, perhaps he
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 1, 2000
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                Roger,
                A bit of a broad statement there, sir.

                Even armed with a musket, a rifleman and his file partner are well trained and act as a team. No, perhaps he can't get off that sparkling 300m shot, but he has all his other experience there, ie breathing technique, proper sight picture etc. The GLI were armed with muskets, and acted (and still do so) as superbe light troops.

                I seem to remember Shadrach Byfield as a recruit making some comment about his musket and his sargeant then shooting the head off a pigeon.

                Len

                PS The only military reference I know of, to a 'double armed man' is the City of London Militia in Elizabethan times.

                L
                --


                and ask him to achieve the same results with a
                >Springfield/Charleville/Bess and he'd have better luck with a catapult or a
                >crossbow.

                > Riflemen WITHOUT rifles were a waste of money and training, and are nothing
                >better or worse than musketmen, hurling salvo after salvo of ill-aimed lead
                >at the enemy in the hopes of hitting something, somewhere.
                >


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              • Craig Williams
                -Roger...you re obsessing...How many Freudians does it take to change a lightbulb? Concerned for your health. Craig
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 1, 2000
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                  -Roger...you're obsessing...How many Freudians does it take to change a
                  lightbulb?

                  Concerned for your health. Craig
                • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                  In a message dated 2/1/2000 10:22:10 PM Central Standard Time, lheidebrecht@hotbot.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 2, 2000
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                    In a message dated 2/1/2000 10:22:10 PM Central Standard Time,
                    lheidebrecht@... writes:

                    << The GLI were armed with muskets, and acted (and still do so) as superbe
                    light troops.
                    >>

                    Perhaps but light troops are NOT riflemen. Just as a cavalryman without a
                    horse is not a cavalryman!

                    Cheers

                    Tim
                  • Len Heidebrecht
                    Oh sorry Tim. I must disagree, as an old Horse Guard, a cavalryman without a horse is dismounted, but he it still a cavalryman. The 19th LD could only field a
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 2, 2000
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                      Oh sorry Tim. I must disagree, as an old Horse Guard, a cavalryman without a horse is dismounted, but he it still a cavalryman. The 19th LD could only field a Squadron of mounted men at any one point of the 1813-1814 campaign but those dismounted troops still would have marched in fours and kept their own unit preculiarities unless secconded to an infantry battalion.

                      Len
                      --

                      Just as a cavalryman without a
                      >horse is not a cavalryman!
                      >
                      >Cheers
                      >
                      >Tim
                      >



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                    • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                      In a message dated 2/2/2000 5:51:07 PM Central Standard Time, lheidebrecht@hotbot.com writes:
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 2, 2000
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                        In a message dated 2/2/2000 5:51:07 PM Central Standard Time,
                        lheidebrecht@... writes:

                        << Oh sorry Tim. I must disagree, as an old Horse Guard, a cavalryman
                        without a horse is dismounted, but he it still a cavalryman. The 19th LD
                        could only field a Squadron of mounted men at any one point of the 1813-1814
                        campaign but those dismounted troops still would have marched in fours and
                        kept their own unit preculiarities unless secconded to an infantry battalion.
                        >>

                        Thus making them part of the Infantry for all practical purposes Len, No?

                        Technically of course you are right. I am speaking of practicality. He may
                        remain within himself a cavalryman but I would not like to see a dismounted
                        squadron form line and try countercharging a mounted one!
                        In like manner it would be a bit pointless sending out a dismounted
                        cavalryman to act as an army scout. When it comes to 'modern' cavalrymen I
                        have met real serving Hussars who have never thrown their leg over a horse.

                        I suppose the modern analogy would be you can't call a formation a tank
                        division if it does not have any tanks in it!

                        Cheers

                        Tim
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