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Re: 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions... again

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  • HQ93rd@aol.com
    Depends on how fast one is counting, I surmise... And yes, he is seeing if you are awake. ;-) B 93rd SHRoFLHU THE Thin Red Line www.93rdhighlanders.com
    Message 1 of 27 , Sep 17, 2009
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      Depends on how fast one is counting, I surmise...

      And yes, he is seeing if you are awake.

      ;-)

      B
      93rd SHRoFLHU
      THE Thin Red Line
      www.93rdhighlanders.com
      www.myspace.com/93rdhighlanders
      www.new.facebook.com/people/Sutherland_Highlanders/1120912511

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Iain Burns <iain51hdbw@...>
      To: 1812 Progressive Yahoo Group
      <1812_ProgressiveCampaigner@yahoogroups.com>; War of 1812 Yahoo Group
      <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thu, Sep 17, 2009 8:11 am
      Subject: 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions... again

      Hullo all...

      I've been looking at Drill Manuals again (I can hear the "uh-ohs"
      now), and
      had a couple of questions about British Drill...

      Each of the manuals I have read states that the timing between each
      motion
      of the Manual Exercise is supposed to be "three pauses of the ordinary
      time of
      march", yet all the CF units seem to have standardized on a four-count
      between
      movements. I was wondering where this standard came from.

      Second, I notice that after we form up on Parade we are brought to
      the
      Shoulder before the OC or the 2IC comes out. After the Officer comes
      out and
      takes position, he gives the orders to go from Shoulder to the Order,
      then back
      to the Shoulder. Does anyone know the origin of the move to Order and
      back? It
      can't be that he just wants to be sure we are awake... (or maybe it
      can??? It's
      a fair cop some Sunday mornings...)

      Anyway, I was just curious and figured I'd ask...

      Thanks,

      Iain
      1st RS Reg't
      42nd RH Reg't
    • Mark Dickerson
      The counting is mixed blessing. Yes, there are 3 pauses or counts between movements. But each unit counts differently. Some count: a)ONE two three four ONE
      Message 2 of 27 , Sep 17, 2009
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        The counting is mixed blessing. Yes, there are 3 'pauses' or counts between
        movements. But each unit counts differently. Some count:

        a)ONE two three four ONE two three four...the movement is done on the "ONE"
        count. The other 3 are the pauses of ordinary time.

        b)ONE pause, pause, pause, TWO, pause, pause, pause, THREE...the movement is
        done on the numbers

        and some even count c) ONE, two three four, TWO, two, three, four, THREE,
        two three four



        But it should all have 3 pauses between movements. There are various
        problems that I have seen.

        -the cadence is wrong

        -the men are not in sync with the counters numbers and thus are moving at
        the wrong count

        -the counter is not counting correctly



        I have always preferred the ONE, pause pause pause, TWO pause pause pause,
        THREE



        In any case, there should be silence during all movements and no counting
        should be heard at all.



        As to your second query, I don't know where the custom of shouldering arms
        for each commander comes from. It may be correct, it may be a modern
        variation applied to our time period, it may somebody's "re-enactorism" that
        has simply propagated itself into our hobby and people are so used to it
        now, that it is not questioned. I personally believe that as each person
        takes over, it demonstrates their authority from the last person that stood
        in front of us. As to its accuracy, I do not know and I am only guessing.



        Mark Dickerson











        From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Iain Burns
        Sent: September 17, 2009 11:12 AM
        To: 1812 Progressive Yahoo Group; War of 1812 Yahoo Group
        Subject: 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions... again





        Hullo all...

        I've been looking at Drill Manuals again (I can hear the "uh-ohs" now), and
        had a couple of questions about British Drill...

        Each of the manuals I have read states that the timing between each motion
        of the Manual Exercise is supposed to be "three pauses of the ordinary time
        of march", yet all the CF units seem to have standardized on a four-count
        between movements. I was wondering where this standard came from.

        Second, I notice that after we form up on Parade we are brought to the
        Shoulder before the OC or the 2IC comes out. After the Officer comes out and
        takes position, he gives the orders to go from Shoulder to the Order, then
        back to the Shoulder. Does anyone know the origin of the move to Order and
        back? It can't be that he just wants to be sure we are awake... (or maybe it
        can??? It's a fair cop some Sunday mornings...)

        Anyway, I was just curious and figured I'd ask...

        Thanks,

        Iain
        1st RS Reg't
        42nd RH Reg't

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • BritcomHMP@aol.com
        In a message dated 9/17/2009 1:45:10 PM Central Daylight Time, mdickerson1@cogeco.ca writes: a)ONE two three four ONE two three four...the movement is done on
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 17, 2009
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          In a message dated 9/17/2009 1:45:10 PM Central Daylight Time,
          mdickerson1@... writes:

          a)ONE two three four ONE two three four...the movement is done on the
          "ONE"
          count. The other 3 are the pauses of ordinary time.

          b)ONE pause, pause, pause, TWO, pause, pause, pause, THREE...the movement
          is
          done on the numbers

          and some even count c) ONE, two three four, TWO, two, three, four, THREE,
          two three four



          ---------------------------------------------------

          I recall in the Sea Cadets in the 1960s the old boys teaching us drill used
          the timing ONE two three, ONE two three, ONE. the two-three being the
          timing of a march pace of quick time (the modern standard march time). I have
          always suspected that what the manual is suggesting is that the movement
          takes place on the standard beat of ordinary time (modern slow march). As for
          timing I think that the best way to fing this is by reference to period
          music. If we have the drums beat the time as laid down we have the timing, no
          guessing.

          Cheers,

          Tim


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Iain Burns
          Thanks, Mark and Kevin, the second part makes perfect sense (showing you are really in control by giving an order and seeing if people actually KNOW you are in
          Message 4 of 27 , Sep 17, 2009
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            Thanks, Mark and Kevin, the second part makes perfect sense (showing you are really in control by giving an order and seeing if people actually KNOW you are in control). I guess things would get out of hand if each officer had his own favorite order to give to show this, a Right Wheel by Brigade might need a bit too much room...

            The first part makes less sense to me, as I look at it as being
            MOVE - first interval - TWO - second interval - THREE - third interval - FOUR - fourth interval - MOVE

            as opposed to

            MOVE - 1st interval - TWO - 2nd interval - THREE - 3rd interval - MOVE

            But at least I know the logic behind the way we do it. I guess, to the 1880's era Army Song, "The Count is ALWAYS ONE, TWO THREE!" isn't always right!

            (Tim, I agree with you, but we'll conform...)

            Aye,
            Iain

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Mark Dickerson<mailto:mdickerson1@...>
            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com> ; '1812 Progressive Yahoo Group'<mailto:1812_ProgressiveCampaigner@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 2:43 PM
            Subject: RE: 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions... again


            The counting is mixed blessing. Yes, there are 3 'pauses' or counts between
            movements. But each unit counts differently. Some count:

            a)ONE two three four ONE two three four...the movement is done on the "ONE"
            count. The other 3 are the pauses of ordinary time.

            b)ONE pause, pause, pause, TWO, pause, pause, pause, THREE...the movement is
            done on the numbers

            and some even count c) ONE, two three four, TWO, two, three, four, THREE,
            two three four

            But it should all have 3 pauses between movements. There are various
            problems that I have seen.

            -the cadence is wrong

            -the men are not in sync with the counters numbers and thus are moving at
            the wrong count

            -the counter is not counting correctly

            I have always preferred the ONE, pause pause pause, TWO pause pause pause,
            THREE

            In any case, there should be silence during all movements and no counting
            should be heard at all.

            As to your second query, I don't know where the custom of shouldering arms
            for each commander comes from. It may be correct, it may be a modern
            variation applied to our time period, it may somebody's "re-enactorism" that
            has simply propagated itself into our hobby and people are so used to it
            now, that it is not questioned. I personally believe that as each person
            takes over, it demonstrates their authority from the last person that stood
            in front of us. As to its accuracy, I do not know and I am only guessing.

            Mark Dickerson

            From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
            Of Iain Burns
            Sent: September 17, 2009 11:12 AM
            To: 1812 Progressive Yahoo Group; War of 1812 Yahoo Group
            Subject: 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions... again

            Hullo all...

            I've been looking at Drill Manuals again (I can hear the "uh-ohs" now), and
            had a couple of questions about British Drill...

            Each of the manuals I have read states that the timing between each motion
            of the Manual Exercise is supposed to be "three pauses of the ordinary time
            of march", yet all the CF units seem to have standardized on a four-count
            between movements. I was wondering where this standard came from.

            Second, I notice that after we form up on Parade we are brought to the
            Shoulder before the OC or the 2IC comes out. After the Officer comes out and
            takes position, he gives the orders to go from Shoulder to the Order, then
            back to the Shoulder. Does anyone know the origin of the move to Order and
            back? It can't be that he just wants to be sure we are awake... (or maybe it
            can??? It's a fair cop some Sunday mornings...)

            Anyway, I was just curious and figured I'd ask...

            Thanks,

            Iain
            1st RS Reg't
            42nd RH Reg't

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • shayna121
            Iain, This is the way I think about it: Say you re changing arms while marching. The first movement happens on the left foot (ONE), then the first pause is
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 17, 2009
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              Iain,
              This is the way I think about it: Say you're changing arms while marching. The first movement happens on the left foot (ONE), then the first pause is on the right foot (TWO), left foot (THREE), right foot (FOUR). Then you're ready for the second movement on the left foot again (ONE), etc. There are some groups out there that move on the left foot, then start counting the pauses, or the right foot, with ONE. This way they only count the three pauses of ordinary time and have a beat of silence when they move. There's nothing wrong with this except that it screws the rest of us up waiting for them to say FOUR.
              Really, the solution to this, as Mark says, is to not count at all. Every soldier should have an idea of the cadence in his head (we do it often enough) and count his own system on his own. If there's a problem within a unit, more drill is required.

              Chris McKay

              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Iain Burns" <iain51hdbw@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks, Mark and Kevin, the second part makes perfect sense (showing you are really in control by giving an order and seeing if people actually KNOW you are in control). I guess things would get out of hand if each officer had his own favorite order to give to show this, a Right Wheel by Brigade might need a bit too much room...
              >
              > The first part makes less sense to me, as I look at it as being
              > MOVE - first interval - TWO - second interval - THREE - third interval - FOUR - fourth interval - MOVE
              >
              > as opposed to
              >
              > MOVE - 1st interval - TWO - 2nd interval - THREE - 3rd interval - MOVE
              >
              > But at least I know the logic behind the way we do it. I guess, to the 1880's era Army Song, "The Count is ALWAYS ONE, TWO THREE!" isn't always right!
              >
              > (Tim, I agree with you, but we'll conform...)
              >
              > Aye,
              > Iain
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Mark Dickerson<mailto:mdickerson1@...>
              > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com> ; '1812 Progressive Yahoo Group'<mailto:1812_ProgressiveCampaigner@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 2:43 PM
              > Subject: RE: 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions... again
              >
              >
              > The counting is mixed blessing. Yes, there are 3 'pauses' or counts between
              > movements. But each unit counts differently. Some count:
              >
              > a)ONE two three four ONE two three four...the movement is done on the "ONE"
              > count. The other 3 are the pauses of ordinary time.
              >
              > b)ONE pause, pause, pause, TWO, pause, pause, pause, THREE...the movement is
              > done on the numbers
              >
              > and some even count c) ONE, two three four, TWO, two, three, four, THREE,
              > two three four
              >
              > But it should all have 3 pauses between movements. There are various
              > problems that I have seen.
              >
              > -the cadence is wrong
              >
              > -the men are not in sync with the counters numbers and thus are moving at
              > the wrong count
              >
              > -the counter is not counting correctly
              >
              > I have always preferred the ONE, pause pause pause, TWO pause pause pause,
              > THREE
              >
              > In any case, there should be silence during all movements and no counting
              > should be heard at all.
              >
              > As to your second query, I don't know where the custom of shouldering arms
              > for each commander comes from. It may be correct, it may be a modern
              > variation applied to our time period, it may somebody's "re-enactorism" that
              > has simply propagated itself into our hobby and people are so used to it
              > now, that it is not questioned. I personally believe that as each person
              > takes over, it demonstrates their authority from the last person that stood
              > in front of us. As to its accuracy, I do not know and I am only guessing.
              >
              > Mark Dickerson
              >
              > From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
              > Of Iain Burns
              > Sent: September 17, 2009 11:12 AM
              > To: 1812 Progressive Yahoo Group; War of 1812 Yahoo Group
              > Subject: 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions... again
              >
              > Hullo all...
              >
              > I've been looking at Drill Manuals again (I can hear the "uh-ohs" now), and
              > had a couple of questions about British Drill...
              >
              > Each of the manuals I have read states that the timing between each motion
              > of the Manual Exercise is supposed to be "three pauses of the ordinary time
              > of march", yet all the CF units seem to have standardized on a four-count
              > between movements. I was wondering where this standard came from.
              >
              > Second, I notice that after we form up on Parade we are brought to the
              > Shoulder before the OC or the 2IC comes out. After the Officer comes out and
              > takes position, he gives the orders to go from Shoulder to the Order, then
              > back to the Shoulder. Does anyone know the origin of the move to Order and
              > back? It can't be that he just wants to be sure we are awake... (or maybe it
              > can??? It's a fair cop some Sunday mornings...)
              >
              > Anyway, I was just curious and figured I'd ask...
              >
              > Thanks,
              >
              > Iain
              > 1st RS Reg't
              > 42nd RH Reg't
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Tom Hurlbut
              With respect Tim, this method would see a different timing for on the march movement or, alternatively, movements on the right foot/pace. That doesn t seem
              Message 6 of 27 , Sep 17, 2009
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                With respect Tim, this method would see a different timing for "on the
                march" movement or, alternatively, movements on the right foot/pace. That
                doesn't seem right.

                To keep all movements on the left you'd have to speed up to a one count or
                slow down to a three count. Try it.

                Tom

                I recall in the Sea Cadets in the 1960s the old boys teaching us drill used
                the timing ONE two three, ONE two three, ONE. the two-three being the
                timing of a march pace of quick time (the modern standard march time). I
                have
                always suspected that what the manual is suggesting is that the movement
                takes place on the standard beat of ordinary time (modern slow march). As
                for
                timing I think that the best way to fing this is by reference to period
                music. If we have the drums beat the time as laid down we have the timing,
                no
                guessing.

                Cheers,

                Tim

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Iain Burns
                All, Not to belabor this (or even have it morph into a discussion about whether 2000 or 2001 is the beginning of the New Millenium), but I have no problem with
                Message 7 of 27 , Sep 17, 2009
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                  All,

                  Not to belabor this (or even have it morph into a discussion about whether 2000 or 2001 is the beginning of the New Millenium), but I have no problem with where the movements occur on the March, as the manual states quite clearly that they happen on the left foot.

                  I just think that, when you are NOT marching around, you are adding an extra beat when the number of pauses (or counts or how-ever you are keeping time) is 4 instead of three.

                  I think the problem I have is that I see the three pauses as starting at the beginning of the first movement, and ending at the start of the second movement (so that the movement is being made while the clock is running, kinda like timing a race when the front of the car crosses the line to start the time, and ending when the same part of the car, the front, crosses the finish line), and I think many of the rest of you are seeing the start of the three pause time starting after the first movement has been completed (so that the first movement has been finished before the "clock" starts; or starting the race when the back of the car crosses the start line, but ending the time when the front bumper crosses the finish). Seeing how the rest of you see it is what I was really looking for...

                  Both for WW1 and WW2 (with basically the same drill and supposedly still using the 3 count), the video documentation shows starting the next movement on the "Ones", and the count being "One, Two-Three". I always figure it would be the same way for 1812 as the number of pauses was supposed to be the same.

                  No matter, though, as I'll do it with what-ever mental count is needed to keep me out of trouble with the Sergeant Major... at least now I can explain to the rest of the swaddies in the group why it says three, but many units count to 4.

                  *(@|);^)

                  Aye,
                  Iain

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: shayna121<mailto:PrivateCannon@...>
                  To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:44 PM
                  Subject: Re: 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions... again


                  Iain,
                  This is the way I think about it: Say you're changing arms while marching. The first movement happens on the left foot (ONE), then the first pause is on the right foot (TWO), left foot (THREE), right foot (FOUR). Then you're ready for the second movement on the left foot again (ONE), etc. There are some groups out there that move on the left foot, then start counting the pauses, or the right foot, with ONE. This way they only count the three pauses of ordinary time and have a beat of silence when they move. There's nothing wrong with this except that it screws the rest of us up waiting for them to say FOUR.
                  Really, the solution to this, as Mark says, is to not count at all. Every soldier should have an idea of the cadence in his head (we do it often enough) and count his own system on his own. If there's a problem within a unit, more drill is required.

                  Chris McKay

                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>, "Iain Burns" <iain51hdbw@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks, Mark and Kevin, the second part makes perfect sense (showing you are really in control by giving an order and seeing if people actually KNOW you are in control). I guess things would get out of hand if each officer had his own favorite order to give to show this, a Right Wheel by Brigade might need a bit too much room...
                  >
                  > The first part makes less sense to me, as I look at it as being
                  > MOVE - first interval - TWO - second interval - THREE - third interval - FOUR - fourth interval - MOVE
                  >
                  > as opposed to
                  >
                  > MOVE - 1st interval - TWO - 2nd interval - THREE - 3rd interval - MOVE
                  >
                  > But at least I know the logic behind the way we do it. I guess, to the 1880's era Army Song, "The Count is ALWAYS ONE, TWO THREE!" isn't always right!
                  >
                  > (Tim, I agree with you, but we'll conform...)
                  >
                  > Aye,
                  > Iain
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Mark Dickerson<mailto:mdickerson1@...>
                  > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>> ; '1812 Progressive Yahoo Group'<mailto:1812_ProgressiveCampaigner@yahoogroups.com<mailto:1812_ProgressiveCampaigner%40yahoogroups.com>>
                  > Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                  > Subject: RE: 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions... again
                  >
                  >
                  > The counting is mixed blessing. Yes, there are 3 'pauses' or counts between
                  > movements. But each unit counts differently. Some count:
                  >
                  > a)ONE two three four ONE two three four...the movement is done on the "ONE"
                  > count. The other 3 are the pauses of ordinary time.
                  >
                  > b)ONE pause, pause, pause, TWO, pause, pause, pause, THREE...the movement is
                  > done on the numbers
                  >
                  > and some even count c) ONE, two three four, TWO, two, three, four, THREE,
                  > two three four
                  >
                  > But it should all have 3 pauses between movements. There are various
                  > problems that I have seen.
                  >
                  > -the cadence is wrong
                  >
                  > -the men are not in sync with the counters numbers and thus are moving at
                  > the wrong count
                  >
                  > -the counter is not counting correctly
                  >
                  > I have always preferred the ONE, pause pause pause, TWO pause pause pause,
                  > THREE
                  >
                  > In any case, there should be silence during all movements and no counting
                  > should be heard at all.
                  >
                  > As to your second query, I don't know where the custom of shouldering arms
                  > for each commander comes from. It may be correct, it may be a modern
                  > variation applied to our time period, it may somebody's "re-enactorism" that
                  > has simply propagated itself into our hobby and people are so used to it
                  > now, that it is not questioned. I personally believe that as each person
                  > takes over, it demonstrates their authority from the last person that stood
                  > in front of us. As to its accuracy, I do not know and I am only guessing.
                  >
                  > Mark Dickerson
                  >
                  > From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
                  > Of Iain Burns
                  > Sent: September 17, 2009 11:12 AM
                  > To: 1812 Progressive Yahoo Group; War of 1812 Yahoo Group
                  > Subject: 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions... again
                  >
                  > Hullo all...
                  >
                  > I've been looking at Drill Manuals again (I can hear the "uh-ohs" now), and
                  > had a couple of questions about British Drill...
                  >
                  > Each of the manuals I have read states that the timing between each motion
                  > of the Manual Exercise is supposed to be "three pauses of the ordinary time
                  > of march", yet all the CF units seem to have standardized on a four-count
                  > between movements. I was wondering where this standard came from.
                  >
                  > Second, I notice that after we form up on Parade we are brought to the
                  > Shoulder before the OC or the 2IC comes out. After the Officer comes out and
                  > takes position, he gives the orders to go from Shoulder to the Order, then
                  > back to the Shoulder. Does anyone know the origin of the move to Order and
                  > back? It can't be that he just wants to be sure we are awake... (or maybe it
                  > can??? It's a fair cop some Sunday mornings...)
                  >
                  > Anyway, I was just curious and figured I'd ask...
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  >
                  > Iain
                  > 1st RS Reg't
                  > 42nd RH Reg't
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • westhouse03
                  The way I started doing it originated from what I heard from our group the most as; the movement, TWO, THREE, FOUR , movement. The movement being one, but not
                  Message 8 of 27 , Sep 17, 2009
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                    The way I started doing it originated from what I heard from our group the most as;
                    the movement, 'TWO, THREE, FOUR', movement. The movement being one, but not called out.

                    Doesn't really matter how it is said as long as there are three beats after the move. I try to espouse consistency among those calling it so it is less confusing. Standarization. It only sounds odd when your group consistently does it one way and then you hear another group do it another.

                    As far as silence, yes, the counting should never be heard BUT we tried that and it just starts to look sloppy. The problem is we don't do it often enough and have varied amounts of attendance so in order to look sharper, we count, more for the benefit of those who do not come out as often, and we try to count as quietly as possible and are looking at having the rear markers do it instead of those in front, easier for everyone in the unit to hear and not so noticeable. In parades we try not to count at all. Depends on where we are and what we are doing. It's easy to say all to count in their heads but again as we don't do it all the time everyone's timing may be different.

                    Timing? Buy a metronome. Use it, listen to it, get the timing from it, then when you count without it(quietly) you'll be on the correct timing.

                    Dave Westhouse.



                    I have always preferred the ONE, pause pause pause, TWO pause pause pause,THREE

                    In any case, there should be silence during all movements and no counting should be heard at all.


                    Mark Dickerson
                  • westhouse03
                    Also from the drill manual, the notes following the manual exercise (S28) The motions in the manual exercise are to be performed, leaving three pauses of the
                    Message 9 of 27 , Sep 17, 2009
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                      Also from the drill manual, the notes following the manual exercise (S28)

                      The motions in the manual exercise are to be performed, leaving three pauses of the ordinary time of march between each motion, except that of fixing bayonets, in which a longer time must be given.


                      Three pauses BETWEEN each movement.

                      movement, two, three, four, movement or;

                      movement, one, two, three, movement or;

                      movement, pause, pause, pause, movement.


                      Dave Westhouse.
                    • Iain Burns
                      Hullo Dave... Following this logic and carrying it over to the distance question, shouldn t the distance between ranks then be 30 between the heel of the
                      Message 10 of 27 , Sep 18, 2009
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                        Hullo Dave...


                        Following this logic and carrying it over to the distance question, shouldn't the distance between ranks then be 30" between the heel of the front rank, and the toe of the rear rank? This would give 30" from each other.

                        (I'm not suggesting this be done, just carrying the logic from one to the other...)

                        Aye,
                        Iain

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: westhouse03<mailto:westhouse@...>
                        To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 2:25 AM
                        Subject: Re: 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions... again


                        Also from the drill manual, the notes following the manual exercise (S28)

                        The motions in the manual exercise are to be performed, leaving three pauses of the ordinary time of march between each motion, except that of fixing bayonets, in which a longer time must be given.

                        Three pauses BETWEEN each movement.

                        movement, two, three, four, movement or;

                        movement, one, two, three, movement or;

                        movement, pause, pause, pause, movement.

                        Dave Westhouse.





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Iain Burns
                        Thanks, all, I finally saw the difference I needed to see in the word between as it was used in the manual... Thanks to Dave s note, I did a search of
                        Message 11 of 27 , Sep 18, 2009
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                          Thanks, all, I finally saw the difference I needed to see in the word "between" as it was used in the manual...

                          Thanks to Dave's note, I did a search of "between" in the manual, and found this reference (only partially copied):

                          under S.17. The Quickest Step:
                          ...Three or four recruits in one rank, with intervals of 12 inches between them,"

                          OK, there is no way that one man could be 12" or less wide (even in those days), so that means that the "between" distance needs to be measured from the left shoulder of the man on the right to the right shoulder of the man on the left.

                          I also found it clearly laid out that distances for the pace were between heels.

                          I still think, if you put a stopwatch on the time, you are going to come out with much closer to 4 pauses of time rather than 3 between movements (since it shouldn't take from One to the first pause to actually finish the movement, and the time should, I think, start when the movement is finished), but it does give enough time for everyone to completely finish the movement before everyone starts to wait three pauses... and it is a very small amount of time to worry about.

                          Thanks again....

                          Aye,
                          Iain


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Iain Burns<mailto:iain51hdbw@...>
                          To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 6:05 AM
                          Subject: Re: 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions... again


                          Hullo Dave...

                          Following this logic and carrying it over to the distance question, shouldn't the distance between ranks then be 30" between the heel of the front rank, and the toe of the rear rank? This would give 30" from each other.

                          (I'm not suggesting this be done, just carrying the logic from one to the other...)

                          Aye,
                          Iain

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: westhouse03<mailto:westhouse@...<mailto:westhouse%40sympatico.ca>>
                          To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>>
                          Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 2:25 AM
                          Subject: Re: 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions... again

                          Also from the drill manual, the notes following the manual exercise (S28)

                          The motions in the manual exercise are to be performed, leaving three pauses of the ordinary time of march between each motion, except that of fixing bayonets, in which a longer time must be given.

                          Three pauses BETWEEN each movement.

                          movement, two, three, four, movement or;

                          movement, one, two, three, movement or;

                          movement, pause, pause, pause, movement.

                          Dave Westhouse.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • militaryheritage
                          Listers, Being a former drill pig (I got therapy), keeping the exact timing between manual exercise movements is difficult because, as Mark points out,
                          Message 12 of 27 , Sep 18, 2009
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                            Listers,

                            Being a former drill pig (I got therapy), keeping the exact timing between manual exercise movements is difficult because, as Mark points out, everyone counts at a different speed. However the regulations are exact in the timing. Pauses are at the ordinary time (75 paces per minute -slightly under a second).

                            The only exception I could find was the Make Ready (or simply 'Ready'). The timing of those two motions (recover and fullcock arms) were at 150 per minute (half pace speed) and the men were trained to tell in their heads "One Two". The "One - Two" pause count is used again with the wait after Firing. Smart really lining up the same pauses in the Platoon exercise around the point of firing. Someone in the British Army understood how the brain processed information.

                            Hope this helps.

                            Robert

                            http://www.warof1812.ca
                          • westhouse03
                            Iain, For the benefit of everyone else on the distance between the front rank and rear rank as one pace (30 inches); quote S. 6. Ordinary Step The length of
                            Message 13 of 27 , Sep 18, 2009
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                              Iain,

                              For the benefit of everyone else on the distance between the front rank and rear rank as one pace (30 inches);

                              quote
                              S. 6. Ordinary Step

                              The length of each pace, from heel to heel, is 30 inches, and the recruit must be taught to take 75 of these steps in a minute, without tottering, and with perfect steadiness.
                              unquote

                              ...from heel to heel...

                              We could talk about marching as well.

                              Dave.




                              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Iain Burns" <iain51hdbw@...> wrote:


                              I also found it clearly laid out that distances for the pace were between heels.

                              Thanks again....

                              Aye,
                              Iain
                            • shayna121
                              At a drill practice last winter, Mark had us measure out the spacing. I didn t find it very different from what most groups had done in the past, but a good
                              Message 14 of 27 , Sep 18, 2009
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                                At a drill practice last winter, Mark had us measure out the spacing. I didn't find it very different from what most groups had done in the past, but a good rule of thumb is to put your arm out in front of you with a closed fist. Your knuckles should just touch the shoulder of the person in front of you.
                                Of course that's not precise, and I would recommend having your rear, right marker measure it for himself, but it's a guideline.

                                Now we could also talk about file marching (which I think definitely needs some work), but we don't see that too often.

                                Chris McKay

                                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "westhouse03" <westhouse@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Iain,
                                >
                                > For the benefit of everyone else on the distance between the front rank and rear rank as one pace (30 inches);
                                >
                                > quote
                                > S. 6. Ordinary Step
                                >
                                > The length of each pace, from heel to heel, is 30 inches, and the recruit must be taught to take 75 of these steps in a minute, without tottering, and with perfect steadiness.
                                > unquote
                                >
                                > ...from heel to heel...
                                >
                                > We could talk about marching as well.
                                >
                                > Dave.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Iain Burns" <iain51hdbw@> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > I also found it clearly laid out that distances for the pace were between heels.
                                >
                                > Thanks again....
                                >
                                > Aye,
                                > Iain
                                >
                              • Kevin Windsor
                                From The Manual and Platoon Exercises 1804 No Flugel man is to step out after firing to give the time of loading and recovering; every man is to load and
                                Message 15 of 27 , Sep 18, 2009
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                                  From "The Manual and Platoon Exercises" 1804



                                  "No Flugel man is to step out after firing to give the time of loading and
                                  recovering; every man is to load and recover as quick as he can. This is to
                                  be observed in all firings by platoons or companies. No flugel man is ever
                                  to remain advanced from a battalion, except to give the time of the General
                                  Salute, or during the performance of the Manual Exercise."



                                  So there are times when it is okay that the flugel man is heard. As it is
                                  we aren't professional soldiers and if you look at the amount of time that a
                                  seasoned re-enactor has drilled, it will still pale in comparison to a
                                  period recruit who has had a full time job of drilling!



                                  So as far as I am concerned, flugel away!! It doesn't really matter what
                                  you say in between as long as it equals 3 beats at 75 beats per minute or 2
                                  and a half seconds.



                                  If you have ever seen the guard at Isle Ste Helene perform then you know it
                                  can be anything!! Eicht.Eicht.Eicht.



                                  Kevin

                                  89th



                                  _____

                                  From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                  Of westhouse03


                                  As far as silence, yes, the counting should never be heard



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                                  In a message dated 9/17/2009 4:47:16 PM Central Daylight Time, hurlbut8646@rogers.com writes: With respect Tim, this method would see a different timing for
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Sep 18, 2009
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                                    In a message dated 9/17/2009 4:47:16 PM Central Daylight Time,
                                    hurlbut8646@... writes:

                                    With respect Tim, this method would see a different timing for "on the
                                    march" movement or, alternatively, movements on the right foot/pace. That
                                    doesn't seem right.

                                    To keep all movements on the left you'd have to speed up to a one count or
                                    slow down to a three count. Try it.

                                    Tom



                                    ---------------------------------------------------------------

                                    Actualy Tom, the system we used was that each drill movemen took one beat
                                    of slow time or three beats of quick time. I confess that after many years
                                    of puzzling over this one I am still unsure but two beats between each
                                    movement just 'feels' right to me somehow. Wildly unscientific as that sounds.
                                    but the few manuals that mention the timing seem to be a bit indistinct
                                    about what the timing is, or rather the system that would have been blindingly
                                    obvious at the time seems a bit obscure today.

                                    The one thing I keep coming back to is dancing and singing, these were
                                    natural to our ancestors and I am sure the natural rithums would be the ones
                                    they would follow. In the early days of pikemen the advance with leveled pike
                                    where one foot follows the other was refered to as an advance 'at the
                                    dance'. And of course all officers should know how to sing in order to project
                                    from the diaphram if they don't want to scream themselves horse in 5
                                    minuets on the field.

                                    Cheers,

                                    Tim



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 9/18/2009 9:49:43 AM Central Daylight Time, kevin.windsor@sympatico.ca writes: No Flugel man is to step out after firing to give the time
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Sep 18, 2009
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                                      In a message dated 9/18/2009 9:49:43 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                      kevin.windsor@... writes:

                                      "No Flugel man is to step out after firing to give the time of loading and
                                      recovering; every man is to load and recover as quick as he can. This is to
                                      be observed in all firings by platoons or companies. No flugel man is ever
                                      to remain advanced from a battalion, except to give the time of the General
                                      Salute, or during the performance of the Manual Exercise."

                                      So there are times when it is okay that the flugel man is heard. As it is
                                      we aren't professional soldiers and if you look at the amount of time that
                                      a
                                      seasoned re-enactor has drilled, it will still pale in comparison to a
                                      period recruit who has had a full time job of drilling!


                                      ---------------------------------------

                                      I agree with one reservation Kevin, I do not thin the flugleman calls out
                                      the time, he steps out in front of the line so that he can be SEEN and the
                                      timing is taken from sight not sound. I know of one actual depiction of this
                                      in a movie (obviously a much later period) in the Korda Four Feathers
                                      where the Flugleman steps out to give the timing for fixing the bayonet.

                                      This was shot second unit in Egypt using the British garrison troops doing
                                      their every day drill so there are lots of interesting little touches in
                                      this 1939 production that have not been replicated elsewhere.

                                      Cheers

                                      Tim


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • larrylozon
                                      If we are talking Crown Forces North America 1812 . . . all commanders were sent The 1811 Drill manual (The Regimental Companion for 1811) and was to be the
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Sep 18, 2009
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                                        If we are talking Crown Forces North America 1812 . . .

                                        all commanders were sent The 1811 Drill manual (The Regimental Companion for 1811) and was to be the Drill Manual used by the Crown Forces North America 1812 so as the whole Crown Forces Brigade used the same drill.

                                        Why are we quoting 1804 drill?

                                        Yrs.,
                                        L2

                                        --- "Kevin Windsor" wrote:

                                        "From "The Manual and Platoon Exercises" 1804 . . . '
                                      • Mark Dickerson
                                        Actually Dave, the regulation (S.6.) you quoted doesn t say anything about the distance between ranks. All it says is that the length of a step is 30 inches.
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Sep 18, 2009
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                                          Actually Dave, the regulation (S.6.) you quoted doesn't say anything about
                                          the distance between ranks. All it says is that the length of a step is 30
                                          inches.



                                          The regulation you actually want is:



                                          S.25. Attention in forming the Squad.

                                          That the ranks have their proper distance of one pace (30 inches) from each
                                          other:



                                          Regulations dictate that the length of pace is measured from heal to heal,
                                          I would assume the distance between ranks if measured the same way. It
                                          couldn't be measured from front rank heal to rear rank toe because people's
                                          feet are different size, the thus the rear rank would not be in a straight
                                          line. (not that we usually are anyways)



                                          Mark Dickerson









                                          From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                          Of westhouse03
                                          Sent: September 18, 2009 10:12 AM
                                          To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: Nevermind!... 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions




                                          For the benefit of everyone else on the distance between the front rank and
                                          rear rank as one pace (30 inches);

                                          quote
                                          S. 6. Ordinary Step

                                          The length of each pace, from heel to heel, is 30 inches, and the recruit
                                          must be taught to take 75 of these steps in a minute, without tottering, and
                                          with perfect steadiness.
                                          unquote

                                          ...from heel to heel...

                                          Original message:
                                          Following this logic and carrying it over to the distance question,
                                          shouldn't the distance between ranks then be 30" between the heel of the
                                          front rank, and the toe of the rear rank? This would give 30" from each
                                          other.







                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • westhouse03
                                          Yes Mark you are correct. I quoted the pace distance (S.6) second as it stated what a pace was. Firstly I stated S.25 in my first post (if you look
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Sep 18, 2009
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                                            Yes Mark you are correct. I quoted the pace distance (S.6) second as it stated what a pace was.
                                            Firstly I stated S.25 in my first post (if you look back-message #40892). In order to ascertain what a pace is you must refer to the previous (S.6) which is why I added it.

                                            As to feet size, that is why they have you as the captain and not in the ranks. You have large feet. Hmmm.

                                            Anyway your right rear marker should be a soldier of some experience and, as Chris mentioned, utilizing the full arm out with clenched fist as a rough measure (the SM with his pace stick will not always be handy) the rear rank then take their dressing from him. We put him there supposedly because he knows what he is doing.

                                            IF the rear rank establish their proper distance then it becomes easier to establish the correct spacing between front and rear rank when we go to the open order.
                                            1. When marching through ranks at open order one should not have to maneuver around obstructions (soldiers).
                                            2. When conducting the musket inspection.

                                            Dave.




                                            Actually Dave, the regulation (S.6.) you quoted doesn't say anything about the distance between ranks. All it says is that the length of a step is 30 inches.

                                            The regulation you actually want is:

                                            S.25. Attention in forming the Squad.

                                            That the ranks have their proper distance of one pace (30 inches) from each other:



                                            Regulations dictate that the length of pace is measured from heal to heal,I would assume the distance between ranks if measured the same way. It couldn't be measured from front rank heal to rear rank toe because people's feet are different size, the thus the rear rank would not be in a straight line. (not that we usually are anyways)

                                            Mark Dickerson
                                          • Mark Dickerson
                                            Iain, I think I am starting to understand your question a little bit better now with your racecar comparison. I will try to make my explanation of my
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Sep 18, 2009
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                                              Iain, I think I am starting to understand your question a little bit better
                                              now with your racecar comparison. I will try to make my explanation of my
                                              interpretation, understandable.



                                              There are certain parts of a movement that seem to coincide with the 75 beat
                                              rhythm. I usually try to coordinate these movements and the time. It does
                                              mean however that I start the movement before I actually hear the click of
                                              the metronome or the drum. However the amount of time is only in the tenths
                                              of a second, and this amount of time is well within human error. To try an
                                              d get it more precise is 'splitting hairs"



                                              For example, when given the order to present arms:



                                              I try to coordinate the first beat with the moment my hand hits the small of
                                              the musket; three pauses; the second count is synchronous when my right
                                              wrist hits the musket; and the third count when my right foot hits the
                                              ground when I step back.



                                              All this means that I start my next movement for that action before the
                                              sound of the metronome, so that my hand can be in the right place.



                                              Is this the sort of thing you are asking? Or am I completely off base?



                                              To try and get things any finer I don't think is within the grasp of a week
                                              end hobby re-enactor.



                                              Mark D







                                              From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                              Of Iain Burns
                                              Sent: September 17, 2009 6:57 PM
                                              To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions... again





                                              I just think that, when you are NOT marching around, you are adding an extra
                                              beat when the number of pauses (or counts or how-ever you are keeping time)
                                              is 4 instead of three.

                                              I think the problem I have is that I see the three pauses as starting at the
                                              beginning of the first movement, and ending at the start of the second
                                              movement (so that the movement is being made while the clock is running,
                                              kinda like timing a race when the front of the car crosses the line to start
                                              the time, and ending when the same part of the car, the front, crosses the
                                              finish line), and I think many of the rest of you are seeing the start of
                                              the three pause time starting after the first movement has been c ompleted
                                              (so that the first movement has been finished before the "clock" starts; or
                                              starting the race when the back of the car crosses the start line, but
                                              ending the time when the front bumper crosses the finish). Seeing how the
                                              rest of you see it is what I was really looking for...

                                              Both for WW1 and WW2 (with basically the same drill and supposedly still
                                              using the 3 count), the video documentation shows starting the next movement
                                              on the "Ones", and the count being "One, Two-Three". I always figure it
                                              would be the same way for 1812 as the number of pauses was supposed to be
                                              the same.

                                              No matter, though, as I'll do it with what-ever mental count is needed to
                                              keep me out of trouble with the Sergeant Major... at least now I can explain
                                              to the rest of the swaddies in the group why it says three, but many units
                                              count to 4.

                                              *(@|);^)

                                              Aye,
                                              Iain








                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • shayna121
                                              That s a good point, Dave. Also, though, to establish the propler distance in the open order, the rear rank needs to take a FULL pace backwards (one of my pet
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Sep 18, 2009
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                                                That's a good point, Dave. Also, though, to establish the propler distance in the open order, the rear rank needs to take a FULL pace backwards (one of my pet peeves). When you're marching forwards, 30" is a reasonable amount for a pace, but it seems like a giant step backwards. I've seen groups step back about 12" and there's no way for the colours to fit between the ranks. If we could get our unit markers to take a full step, it would also help this problem.

                                                Chris McKay


                                                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "westhouse03" <westhouse@...> wrote:

                                                >
                                                > IF the rear rank establish their proper distance then it becomes easier to establish the correct spacing between front and rear rank when we go to the open order.
                                                > 1. When marching through ranks at open order one should not have to maneuver around obstructions (soldiers).
                                                > 2. When conducting the musket inspection.
                                                >
                                                > Dave.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Actually Dave, the regulation (S.6.) you quoted doesn't say anything about the distance between ranks. All it says is that the length of a step is 30 inches.
                                                >
                                                > The regulation you actually want is:
                                                >
                                                > S.25. Attention in forming the Squad.
                                                >
                                                > That the ranks have their proper distance of one pace (30 inches) from each other:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Regulations dictate that the length of pace is measured from heal to heal,I would assume the distance between ranks if measured the same way. It couldn't be measured from front rank heal to rear rank toe because people's feet are different size, the thus the rear rank would not be in a straight line. (not that we usually are anyways)
                                                >
                                                > Mark Dickerson
                                                >
                                              • Iain Burns
                                                Mark... Yes, I think you are catching on to my, uh, anal-ity! My problem was always that I never saw the first beat as being the time taken to actually make
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Sep 18, 2009
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                                                  Mark...

                                                  Yes, I think you are catching on to my, uh, anal-ity!

                                                  My problem was always that I never saw the first beat as being the time taken to actually make AND COMPLETE the first move, and therefore separate from the pausing (maybe I move too fast?).

                                                  The way I thought it was to be done still has three pauses between movements, the difference is that the three pauses are between the START of each movement... the time taken by moving the musket is part of the first time interval.

                                                  The reason I saw it that way was this; in marching there is one beat of common time between each step... and you put each foot down ON the beat. You do not put one foot down, wait a beat before counting one, then put the other foot down, wait another beat before you count one... you count one every time a foot touches the ground. The time taken for the movement of the foot basically comes from the time between beats, you do not move the foot then start the "clock" for the wait for the next foot movement. I carried this over to movements so that the first movement's time was con-current with the first pause.

                                                  But again, I will follow what is being done, and try not to grumble too loudly in the back rank...

                                                  *(@|);^)

                                                  My big reason for asking was to be able to explain it to my Rories... we were always willing to do it the CF way, we just didn't know why...

                                                  Aye,
                                                  Iain



                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Tom Hurlbut
                                                  Seems like we re in agreement here. _____ From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Iain Burns Sent: September 17, 2009
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Sep 18, 2009
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Seems like we're in agreement here.



                                                    _____

                                                    From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                    Of Iain Burns
                                                    Sent: September 17, 2009 6:57 PM
                                                    To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: Re: 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions... again





                                                    All,

                                                    Not to belabor this (or even have it morph into a discussion about whether
                                                    2000 or 2001 is the beginning of the New Millenium), but I have no problem
                                                    with where the movements occur on the March, as the manual states quite
                                                    clearly that they happen on the left foot.

                                                    I just think that, when you are NOT marching around, you are adding an extra
                                                    beat when the number of pauses (or counts or how-ever you are keeping time)
                                                    is 4 instead of three.

                                                    I think the problem I have is that I see the three pauses as starting at the
                                                    beginning of the first movement, and ending at the start of the second
                                                    movement (so that the movement is being made while the clock is running,
                                                    kinda like timing a race when the front of the car crosses the line to start
                                                    the time, and ending when the same part of the car, the front, crosses the
                                                    finish line), and I think many of the rest of you are seeing the start of
                                                    the three pause time starting after the first movement has been completed
                                                    (so that the first movement has been finished before the "clock" starts; or
                                                    starting the race when the back of the car crosses the start line, but
                                                    ending the time when the front bumper crosses the finish). Seeing how the
                                                    rest of you see it is what I was really looking for...

                                                    Both for WW1 and WW2 (with basically the same drill and supposedly still
                                                    using the 3 count), the video documentation shows starting the next movement
                                                    on the "Ones", and the count being "One, Two-Three". I always figure it
                                                    would be the same way for 1812 as the number of pauses was supposed to be
                                                    the same.

                                                    No matter, though, as I'll do it with what-ever mental count is needed to
                                                    keep me out of trouble with the Sergeant Major... at least now I can explain
                                                    to the rest of the swaddies in the group why it says three, but many units
                                                    count to 4.

                                                    *(@|);^)

                                                    Aye,
                                                    Iain

                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: shayna121<mailto:PrivateCannon@ <mailto:PrivateCannon%40hotmail.com>
                                                    hotmail.com>
                                                    To: WarOf1812@yahoogrou <mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    ps.com<mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogrou <mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    ps.com>
                                                    Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:44 PM
                                                    Subject: Re: 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions... again

                                                    Iain,
                                                    This is the way I think about it: Say you're changing arms while marching.
                                                    The first movement happens on the left foot (ONE), then the first pause is
                                                    on the right foot (TWO), left foot (THREE), right foot (FOUR). Then you're
                                                    ready for the second movement on the left foot again (ONE), etc. There are
                                                    some groups out there that move on the left foot, then start counting the
                                                    pauses, or the right foot, with ONE. This way they only count the three
                                                    pauses of ordinary time and have a beat of silence when they move. There's
                                                    nothing wrong with this except that it screws the rest of us up waiting for
                                                    them to say FOUR.
                                                    Really, the solution to this, as Mark says, is to not count at all. Every
                                                    soldier should have an idea of the cadence in his head (we do it often
                                                    enough) and count his own system on his own. If there's a problem within a
                                                    unit, more drill is required.

                                                    Chris McKay

                                                    --- In WarOf1812@yahoogrou <mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    ps.com<mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>, "Iain Burns" <iain51hdbw@...>
                                                    wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Thanks, Mark and Kevin, the second part makes perfect sense (showing you
                                                    are really in control by giving an order and seeing if people actually KNOW
                                                    you are in control). I guess things would get out of hand if each officer
                                                    had his own favorite order to give to show this, a Right Wheel by Brigade
                                                    might need a bit too much room...
                                                    >
                                                    > The first part makes less sense to me, as I look at it as being
                                                    > MOVE - first interval - TWO - second interval - THREE - third interval -
                                                    FOUR - fourth interval - MOVE
                                                    >
                                                    > as opposed to
                                                    >
                                                    > MOVE - 1st interval - TWO - 2nd interval - THREE - 3rd interval - MOVE
                                                    >
                                                    > But at least I know the logic behind the way we do it. I guess, to the
                                                    1880's era Army Song, "The Count is ALWAYS ONE, TWO THREE!" isn't always
                                                    right!
                                                    >
                                                    > (Tim, I agree with you, but we'll conform...)
                                                    >
                                                    > Aye,
                                                    > Iain
                                                    >
                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                    > From: Mark Dickerson<mailto:mdickerson1@...>
                                                    > To: WarOf1812@yahoogrou <mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    ps.com<mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogrou
                                                    <mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    ps.com<mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>> ; '1812 Progressive Yahoo
                                                    Group'<mailto:1812_ProgressiveCam
                                                    <mailto:1812_ProgressiveCampaigner%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    paigner@yahoogroups.com<mailto:1812_ProgressiveCampaigner%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    >
                                                    > Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                                                    > Subject: RE: 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions... again
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > The counting is mixed blessing. Yes, there are 3 'pauses' or counts
                                                    between
                                                    > movements. But each unit counts differently. Some count:
                                                    >
                                                    > a)ONE two three four ONE two three four...the movement is done on the
                                                    "ONE"
                                                    > count. The other 3 are the pauses of ordinary time.
                                                    >
                                                    > b)ONE pause, pause, pause, TWO, pause, pause, pause, THREE...the movement
                                                    is
                                                    > done on the numbers
                                                    >
                                                    > and some even count c) ONE, two three four, TWO, two, three, four, THREE,
                                                    > two three four
                                                    >
                                                    > But it should all have 3 pauses between movements. There are various
                                                    > problems that I have seen.
                                                    >
                                                    > -the cadence is wrong
                                                    >
                                                    > -the men are not in sync with the counters numbers and thus are moving at
                                                    > the wrong count
                                                    >
                                                    > -the counter is not counting correctly
                                                    >
                                                    > I have always preferred the ONE, pause pause pause, TWO pause pause pause,
                                                    > THREE
                                                    >
                                                    > In any case, there should be silence during all movements and no counting
                                                    > should be heard at all.
                                                    >
                                                    > As to your second query, I don't know where the custom of shouldering arms
                                                    > for each commander comes from. It may be correct, it may be a modern
                                                    > variation applied to our time period, it may somebody's "re-enactorism"
                                                    that
                                                    > has simply propagated itself into our hobby and people are so used to it
                                                    > now, that it is not questioned. I personally believe that as each person
                                                    > takes over, it demonstrates their authority from the last person that
                                                    stood
                                                    > in front of us. As to its accuracy, I do not know and I am only guessing.
                                                    >
                                                    > Mark Dickerson
                                                    >
                                                    > From: WarOf1812@yahoogrou <mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    ps.com<mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.co
                                                    m> [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogrou <mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    ps.com<mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.co
                                                    m>] On Behalf
                                                    > Of Iain Burns
                                                    > Sent: September 17, 2009 11:12 AM
                                                    > To: 1812 Progressive Yahoo Group; War of 1812 Yahoo Group
                                                    > Subject: 1812 Esoteric British Drill Questions... again
                                                    >
                                                    > Hullo all...
                                                    >
                                                    > I've been looking at Drill Manuals again (I can hear the "uh-ohs" now),
                                                    and
                                                    > had a couple of questions about British Drill...
                                                    >
                                                    > Each of the manuals I have read states that the timing between each motion
                                                    > of the Manual Exercise is supposed to be "three pauses of the ordinary
                                                    time
                                                    > of march", yet all the CF units seem to have standardized on a four-count
                                                    > between movements. I was wondering where this standard came from.
                                                    >
                                                    > Second, I notice that after we form up on Parade we are brought to the
                                                    > Shoulder before the OC or the 2IC comes out. After the Officer comes out
                                                    and
                                                    > takes position, he gives the orders to go from Shoulder to the Order, then
                                                    > back to the Shoulder. Does anyone know the origin of the move to Order and
                                                    > back? It can't be that he just wants to be sure we are awake... (or maybe
                                                    it
                                                    > can??? It's a fair cop some Sunday mornings...)
                                                    >
                                                    > Anyway, I was just curious and figured I'd ask...
                                                    >
                                                    > Thanks,
                                                    >
                                                    > Iain
                                                    > 1st RS Reg't
                                                    > 42nd RH Reg't
                                                    >
                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >
                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • westhouse03
                                                    Re: rank distance **...Also, though, to establish the proper distance in the open order, the rear rank needs to take a FULL pace backwards (one of my pet
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Sep 18, 2009
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                                                      Re: rank distance

                                                      **...Also, though, to establish the proper distance in the open order, the rear rank needs to take a FULL pace backwards (one of my pet peeves).

                                                      EXACTLY, YES. And also one of mine, if everyone didn't get that already.


                                                      **When you're marching forwards, 30" is a reasonable amount for a pace, but it seems like a giant step backwards.

                                                      GET LONGER LEGS. J/K. Yes it's a big step but it needs to be done.


                                                      **If we could get our unit markers to take a full step, it would also help this problem.

                                                      YUP. Everyone dresses to the rear markers. We put 'em there because they know what they are doing. If not we need to teach them. Additionally, when the battalion takes the open order only the right rear marker steps back. Only when in company alone do both the left and right rear markers step back.
                                                      Also, it says in S.72, that when the markers step back, turn, and are dressing on each other, the adjutant or the sergeant major on the right regulate the dress.
                                                      Following is the whole of S.72. Not all of it applies to what we do. It also mentions one and two steps but that is for 3 ranks.

                                                      Dave.

                                                      btw. If anyone wants a printed version of the drill manual with a nice periodish looking cover that fits nicely in a haversack, one of our guys can print them off for $10 each. Mine is looking nicely worn and almost period at this point.




                                                      S.72. When the Battalion takes Open Order.


                                                      Rear Ranks take Open Order. At this command--the flank men on the right of the rear ranks of each company step briskly back to mark the ground on which each rank respectively is to halt. They face to the right, and cover as pivots, being regulated and dressed by the adjutant or serjeant-major on the right.--Every other individual remains ready to move.

                                                      March. At this command--the flank dressers face to the front, and the whole move as follows:

                                                      The rear ranks fall back one and two paces, each dressing by the right the instant it arrives on the ground.

                                                      The officers in the front rank, as also the colours, move out three paces--those in the rear, together with the music, move through the intervals left open by the front rank officers, and divide themselves, viz. the captains covering the second file from the right, the lieutenants the second file from the left; and the ensigns opposite the centre of their respective companies.

                                                      The music form between the colours and the front rank.

                                                      The serjeant coverers move up to the front rank, to preserve the intervals left by the officers.

                                                      The pioneers fall back to six paces distance behind the rear rank.

                                                      The drummers take the same distance behind their divisions.

                                                      The major moves to the right of the line of officers.--The adjutant remains in the rear.

                                                      The staff place themselves on the right of the front rank of the grenadiers, viz. chaplain, surgeon, quarter-master, assistant surgeon.

                                                      The lieutenant-colonel, and the colonel (dismounted) advance before the colours, two and four paces.

                                                      The whole being arrived at the several ports--Halt--Dress to the Right--and the battalion remains formed in parade, in the order in which they would receive a superior officer.

                                                      When the battalion is reviewed singly, the division of drummers may be moved up, and formed two deep on each flank of the line--the pioneers may form two deep on the right of the drummers of the right--and the staff may form on the right of the whole; but this licence is never to be acted upon when more than one battalion is in line.
                                                    • MasterAtArms
                                                      Let me see if I m following this... The rank heels in the ranks should be thirty inches from the front rank heel s heel to the rear rank heel s heel. Then the
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Sep 20, 2009
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                                                        Let me see if I'm following this...

                                                        The rank heels in the ranks should be thirty inches from the front rank heel's heel to the rear rank heel's heel. Then the rank heels in both ranks can go heal their rank heels.

                                                        Right? ;^)

                                                        Dale
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