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Kane's list (Royal Artillery)

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  • Mark Ibbotson
    Page 39A I found no less than 3 references to Niagara on this page from 3 separate officers. 1407: Richard Say Armstrong 1422: Arthur Carter 1431: George
    Message 1 of 3 , Apr 13 1:56 PM
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      Page 39A

      I found no less than 3 references to Niagara on this page from 3 separate officers.

      1407: Richard Say Armstrong
      1422: Arthur Carter
      1431: George Charleton

      I have looked into Charelton previously, Mentioned in Col Murray's desp for the storming of fort Niagara again for Black Rock (*contusion at for Erie).

      One of Holcroft's men, *I wonder if he was on the walls.

      Of the many times I have flicked through Kane's list I have never noticed these 3 men, on the same page each having served at one point or all in the Niagara region.

      Arthur Carter, however may raise an interesting topic.

      Forgive me for not typing it all out but the list mentions..

      "Campaign upper Canada 13-14.: Niagara, Ops before fort Erie: affair at cooks mill. Nova and Can 5.10 - 10.13; United States, 10.13 - 2.14 (as pow)
      Captured by enemy fleet on Lake Ontario, closely confined, to be hung in retaliation for deserters, succeeded in escaping and joining company (about 1500 miles) previously to the opening of 1814 campaign"

      Sounds like he had an interesting war.

      "to be hung in retaliation for deserters"
      I have no idea what this means but I can assume it led to the following. (can anyone give some insight into this please)

      "succeeded in escaping and joining company (about 1500 miles)"
      If he was no longer a pow on 2.14 this means he escaped and headed north during winter. Is this a greater march than the 104th and is it a record of the period for escaping across such vast distances. (I appreciate the same language would have eased travel... or would it?).

      And can anyone inform me if he was one of Holcroft's men and on what date is he mentioned again in muster records after escaping. (when did the 1814 campaign open).

      What's really interesting (to me at least) is although these men were gunners each of them are stated as been in non gunnery roles.

      Armstrong, In command of gun boat at Prescott, Storming of fort Niagara.
      Carter, Captured by enemy fleet on lake Ontario (was he been transported or did the fleet require manpower as on Erie? Was there an engagement on lake Ontario in October 1813?)
      Charelton, Storming of fort Niagara and Fort Erie.


      Many thanks, Ibbo
      Ubique


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    • James Yaworsky
      Mark, I ve interspersed some off the top of my head remarks (i.e. going strictly from memory - I m at work and supposed to be *working* as I type this...)
      Message 2 of 3 , Apr 14 12:55 PM
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        Mark, I've interspersed some "off the top of my head" remarks (i.e. going strictly from memory - I'm at work and supposed to be *working* as I type this...) in to your original message, which contains many potential discussion threads in it.

        Jim Yaworsky
        41st

        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Ibbotson" <ibbo@...> wrote:
        [snip]
        > I have looked into Charelton previously, Mentioned in Col Murray's desp for the storming of fort Niagara again for Black Rock (*contusion at for Erie).
        >
        > One of Holcroft's men, *I wonder if he was on the walls.

        JIM: I believe artillerymen were routinely included in storming attempts, mainly so captured enemy guns could be quickly turned against remaining defenders.

        [snip]
        > Arthur Carter, however may raise an interesting topic.
        [snip]
        > Captured by enemy fleet on Lake Ontario, closely confined, to be hung in retaliation for deserters, succeeded in escaping and joining company (about 1500 miles) previously to the opening of 1814 campaign"
        >
        > Sounds like he had an interesting war.
        >
        > "to be hung in retaliation for deserters"
        > I have no idea what this means but I can assume it led to the following. (can anyone give some insight into this please)

        JIM: this is a long and interesting story. Basically, some captured American POW's had been born in Britain or on British territory. They had either deserted and joined the American army - "category #1" (which I think the combatants would have all agreed could be a hanging offence if you were caught) or, had become American citizens and eventually joined the American armed forces - "category #2".

        It's this second category that caused the problems, because under British law, once a Brit, always a Brit, so there was some consideration being given to treating these men like they were deserters and hanging them (i.e. like category #1...). The American position was that they had become "Americans", and if you wanted to hang some Americans, well... they would retaliate by hanging some brits.

        The two sides engaged in prolonged negotiations on this issue, meanwhile raising the threats ("you hang one of our men, we'll hang two of yours" etc.). Some prisoners were put in shackles for considerable periods of time. Eventually, the issue was resolved and nobody hanged anybody.
        >



        > "succeeded in escaping and joining company (about 1500 miles)"
        > If he was no longer a pow on 2.14 this means he escaped and headed north during winter. Is this a greater march than the 104th and is it a record of the period for escaping across such vast distances. (I appreciate the same language would have eased travel... or would it?).

        JIM: I don't know where all the American POW camps were for British prisoners, other than the Camp Bull situation in Ohio for men of the Right Division captured at the Battle of Lake Erie and at Moraviantown. However, I don't think that you can assume that because his company was 1500 miles from wherever the prison was, that he had to escape that entire distance. My guess is he managed to steal a boat and got out to one of the RN ships blockading the American coast. However, I've never run across an account of an escaping British prisoner (it was basically impossible from Camp Bull, for instance) and this sounds interesting.

        For that matter, I think it is far more likely that he was exchanged rather than escaped, but your source document says "escaped" so perhaps that is indeed what he did. I agree this would be a fascinating story to delve further in to.


        >
        > And can anyone inform me if he was one of Holcroft's men and on what date is he mentioned again in muster records after escaping. (when did the 1814 campaign open).

        JIM: for the British, the 1814 campaign was a defensive one. The Americans started the campaign when they attacked and captured Fort Erie on July 3 1814. I believe this is generally considered to be the opening move of the 1814 campaign on the Niagara frontier.

        >
        > What's really interesting (to me at least) is although these men were gunners each of them are stated as been in non gunnery roles.
        >
        > Armstrong, In command of gun boat at Prescott, Storming of fort Niagara.
        > Carter, Captured by enemy fleet on lake Ontario (was he been transported or did the fleet require manpower as on Erie? Was there an engagement on lake Ontario in October 1813?)

        JIM: probably captured while being transported. Several companies of infantry from at least the Regiment de Watteville were captured in this way by the US Lake Ontario squadron, when it cut the supply line from Kingston to points west.
      • i66o
        Jim, Many thanks for your input. Ibbo
        Message 3 of 3 , Apr 21 5:50 AM
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          Jim,

          Many thanks for your input.

          Ibbo
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