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Re: 1812 RE: Solomon Moseby Affair

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  • Will Tatum
    Hi Kevin, A friend and I were on a day trip to Upper Canada this past July and could not find the Lundy s Lane museum. We found the monument to the battle in
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 2 9:56 AM
      Hi Kevin,
      A friend and I were on a day trip to Upper Canada this past July and
      could not find the Lundy's Lane museum. We found the monument to the battle
      in the Grave yard, though, which was pretty cool. I was hoping to meet you,
      though.


      Yr Svt,
      Will Tatum



      On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Kevin Windsor
      <kevin.windsor@...>wrote:

      > Happy new year all!
      >
      > What Michael is referring to if the Moseby Affair of 1837. Solomon Moseby
      > stole his master's horse and escaped to Niagara. The owner of the horse had
      > him arrested for theft and demanded his extradition back to Kentucky. The
      > Lieutenant Governor of Upper Canada returned Moseby because he was guilty
      > of
      > theft and not back into slavery. (though he was fully aware of what would
      > happen to Moseby)
      > The subsequent riot that occurred wasn't because of the Militia it was
      > because of the nearly 400 supporters that gathered around to stop the
      > extradition. In the end the soldiers (I can't remember if they were
      > regulars or militia) killed two people and Moseby escaped. He made his way
      > to England.
      >
      > As to bounty hunters not coming into Upper Canada, they did frequently.
      > There were warnings posted for blacks to be aware. Many of the Canadian
      > border towns had safe houses to hide escaped slaves from slave catchers.
      >
      > A trip to the Lundy's Lane Historical Museum will give you information on
      > slavery in Upper Canada and the history of the Black community in Niagara
      > since. Combine that with a trip to the Nathaniel Dett British Methodist
      > Episcopalian Church and you will have the whole experience!
      >
      > Kevin
      > 89th
      >
      > ________________________________________
      > From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
      > WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
      > Of richard lytle
      >
      > Michael,
      >
      > Normally I just lurk on this message board just to be up-to-date on what is
      > happening out in the active historical community but this time your posting
      > has me curious about something.
      >
      > Who's black soldiers were they?
      >
      > Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that either
      > the U.S. Navy or Marines had them either. But the (U. S.) fugitive slave
      > law
      > was in operation in the 1850's and it was based upon an older law in the
      > U.S. There were plenty of slave bounty hunters operating throughout the U.
      > S. and I would not be all that surprised if they extended their operations
      > into Canada. Theoritically, the incident could have happened---but with
      > black soldiers?
      >
      > Just as a bit of trivia I will add that I know that almost all black
      > (white
      > officers were still then assigned and white medical staff were assigned to
      > the post hospitals) garrisons were at U. S. forts along the lower Great
      > Lakes at one point early in the 1900's but that was long after the issue of
      > slavery had been addressed by the 13th, 14th and 15th Admendments to the U.
      > S. constitution.
      >
      > Richard Lytle
      >
      >
      > --- On Fri, 1/2/09, whittakermp <whittakermp@...<whittakermp%40yahoo.ca>>
      > wrote:
      >
      > From: whittakermp <whittakermp@... <whittakermp%40yahoo.ca>>
      >
      > I vaguely recall an incident of near mutiny at Fort George Pre-civil
      > War when Black soldiers were forced to surrender an escaped slave they
      > were harbouring. Ring any bells?
      >
      > Michael
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kevin Windsor
      You were in the right area Will! At the top of the hill, across the street from the Monument is a white house. That is the Battle Ground Hotel Museum. At the
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 2 10:03 AM
        You were in the right area Will!

        At the top of the hill, across the street from the Monument is a white
        house. That is the Battle Ground Hotel Museum. At the bottom of the hill is
        a large stone building. That is the Lundy's Lane Museum. I look after
        both.



        KW



        _____

        From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Will Tatum





        Hi Kevin,
        A friend and I were on a day trip to Upper Canada this past July and
        could not find the Lundy's Lane museum. We found the monument to the battle
        in the Grave yard, though, which was pretty cool. I was hoping to meet you,
        though.

        Yr Svt,
        Will Tatum






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Colin
        RL wrote: Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that either the U.S. Navy or Marines had them either. From what I recall I heard
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 5 7:17 AM
          RL wrote:
          "Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that
          either the
          U.S. Navy or Marines had them either."


          From what I recall I heard that a large portion of the regiments
          raised in 1813 and 14 were African Americans and soon after the war
          there was a purge and African Americans did not return to the US Army
          until 1862 as mentioned Perhaps someone can elaborate..

          The US Navy also had plenty of African Americans... See LLs example
          also I conference was held at the USS Constitution Museum a few years
          back and a speaker gave a great talk on the African Americans in the
          US Navy.


          As to the Marine Corps the Jury is still out

          They were not supposed to be there but we have found numerous
          enlistees described as "dark complexion" "black hair" "black eyes" one
          listed as a "planter" from Virginia

          YHOS
          Colin Murphy
          USS CON 1812 MG
          USMCHC
        • richard lytle
          Colin,   In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct in that plenty of
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 6 8:09 AM
            Colin,
             
            In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black and I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as sailors.
             
            The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815, and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up. The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44 regiments to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course, the Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those years but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the west coast, that was damn few troops.
             
            Richard Lytle

            --- On Mon, 1/5/09, Colin <usmarine1814@...> wrote:

            From: Colin <usmarine1814@...>
            Subject: 1812 Re: Free Person’s of Colour now African Americans in US Forces
            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:17 AM






            RL wrote:
            "Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that
            either the
            U.S. Navy or Marines had them either."

            From what I recall I heard that a large portion of the regiments
            raised in 1813 and 14 were African Americans and soon after the war
            there was a purge and African Americans did not return to the US Army
            until 1862 as mentioned Perhaps someone can elaborate..

            The US Navy also had plenty of African Americans... See LLs example
            also I conference was held at the USS Constitution Museum a few years
            back and a speaker gave a great talk on the African Americans in the
            US Navy.

            As to the Marine Corps the Jury is still out

            They were not supposed to be there but we have found numerous
            enlistees described as "dark complexion" "black hair" "black eyes" one
            listed as a "planter" from Virginia

            YHOS
            Colin Murphy
            USS CON 1812 MG
            USMCHC


















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James Yaworsky
            ... [snip] ... restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815, and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up. The
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 6 11:26 AM
              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@...> wrote:
              [snip]
              > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
              restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
              and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
              The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
              became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
              Infantry, etc, etc.

              You've got me curious, Richard. What was the reason for the 1st
              becoming the 3rd, the 2nd the 1st, the 6th the new 2nd, etc? To those
              of us not in the know, it sounds rather like a pointless random
              shuffle, or the results of a game of musical chairs!

              Jim Yaworsky
              41st
            • richard lytle
              Hello, James. Hope you are recovering from the holidays.   Right now I am in the process of researching and writing a book covering the use of U.S. Military
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 6 12:10 PM
                Hello, James. Hope you are recovering from the holidays.
                 
                Right now I am in the process of researching and writing a book covering the use of U.S. Military ground forces from between 1789 and 1815. One of the reasons that I am monitoring this listserv, bye the way. Anyway, the answer to your question is relatively simple if you consider the standard practice of that time. Typically, the original records of the late 1790s and early 1800s that I have seen numbered the regiments but the companies were designated by their commanding officers even though they were given numbers one through twelve within the regiment. Therefore,the reorganized regiments were re-numbered in 1815 "ACCORDING TO THE SENIORITY OF SERVICE OF THEIR COMMANDING OFFICERS."
                 
                At least, that is the "official version" currently available in any known documents. Un-officially, there is the problem of most of the old First Infantry having been surrendered by Hull at Detroit in 1812 (and no one knows where the regimental colors went) and most of the old Second Infantry having been surrendered by Major (bvt. Lt. Col.) Lawrence which concluded the seige of Fort Bowyer located at Mobile Point in February, 1815. Those regimental colors went to England and are still in the possession of the War Museum in the old Chelsea Royal Hospital where I am told, very recently, the originals are in archival storage and replicas hang in the Great Hall in their place. Therefore, I believe that the plan to renumber as well as reorganize the regiments was concocted to erase those surrenders (even though they were not the fault of the men in those regiments) and restart the heritage from scratch. No proof, though!
                 
                Richard lytle

                --- On Tue, 1/6/09, James Yaworsky <yawors1@...> wrote:

                From: James Yaworsky <yawors1@...>
                Subject: 1812 1816 shakeup of US army
                To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:26 PM






                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com, richard lytle <richard6616@ ...> wrote:
                [snip]
                > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                Infantry, etc, etc.

                You've got me curious, Richard. What was the reason for the 1st
                becoming the 3rd, the 2nd the 1st, the 6th the new 2nd, etc? To those
                of us not in the know, it sounds rather like a pointless random
                shuffle, or the results of a game of musical chairs!

                Jim Yaworsky
                41st


















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • James Yaworsky
                ... Thanks, Richard. As I am partly of Ukrainian heritage, I am in fact preparing for our big Orthodox Xmas Eve family meal as I type this... the Holidays
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 6 12:34 PM
                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello, James. Hope you are recovering from the holidays.
                  >  

                  Thanks, Richard. As I am partly of Ukrainian heritage, I am in fact
                  preparing for our big Orthodox Xmas Eve family meal as I type this...
                  the Holidays just go on and on and on in this household! ;>)

                  [snip] Anyway, the answer to your question is relatively simple if you
                  consider the standard practice of that time. Typically, the original
                  records of the late 1790s and early 1800s that I have seen numbered
                  the regiments but the companies were designated by their commanding
                  officers even though they were given numbers one through twelve within
                  the regiment. Therefore,the reorganized regiments were re-numbered in
                  1815 "ACCORDING TO THE SENIORITY OF SERVICE OF THEIR COMMANDING
                  OFFICERS."

                  Thanks, Richard. That does indeed make perfect sense to a student of
                  the British army, especially when looking at its formative years in
                  the Marlborough era.

                  >  
                  > At least, that is the "official version" currently available in any
                  known documents. Un-officially, there is the problem of most of the
                  old First Infantry having been surrendered by Hull at Detroit in 1812
                  (and no one knows where the regimental colors went) and most of the
                  old Second Infantry having been surrendered by Major (bvt. Lt. Col.)
                  Lawrence which concluded the seige of Fort Bowyer located at Mobile
                  Point in February, 1815. Those regimental colors went to England and
                  are still in the possession of the War Museum in the old Chelsea Royal
                  Hospital where I am told, very recently, the originals are in archival
                  storage and replicas hang in the Great Hall in their place. Therefore,
                  I believe that the plan to renumber as well as reorganize the
                  regiments was concocted to erase those surrenders (even though they
                  were not the fault of the men in those regiments) and restart the
                  heritage from scratch. No proof, though!
                  >  
                  > Richard lytle

                  Richard, you might be interested to learn that the Welch Regiment'sl
                  Museum (formerly 41st) in Cardiff, Wales, has some "souvenirs"
                  collected by the 41st from the Detroit surrender in its collections.
                  Going by memory here, but I think they have the Regimental Color of
                  the U.S. 4th?

                  Jim Yaworsky
                  41st
                • nappingcrow
                  Hi Richard, This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that in spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were African-
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 6 8:24 PM
                    Hi Richard,

                    This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that in
                    spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were African-
                    Americans serving in the regular US army during the War of 1812. I
                    can't speculate as to numbers, but I believe today even the US Army
                    states they served. (Sorry, it's late and I can't give you a proper
                    citation.)

                    The US National Archives notes the following:
                    "African Americans also served in the Regular Army, primarily in the
                    26th Infantry. The notation "(B)" appears following their names in
                    Appendix III for those whose physical description indicates black or
                    mulatto skin color. Persons whose skin was described simply as "dark"
                    are not indicated as "black" since they were probably "dark"
                    caucasians. "Blacks" and "mulattos" noted during records
                    arrangement... " and it goes on to list men in three different
                    regiments, including the 26th infantry.

                    LINK: http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/military/1812/discharge-
                    certificates.html

                    A number of years ago I ran across a list of 'denied' 1812 veteran
                    bounty applications which appeared to have been denied simply because
                    the applicants were black. The veterans were all from the 26th
                    infantry, and served under Captain William Bezeau (also written as
                    Begeau or Bezean in some other records) but like an idiot, I was
                    looking for something else at the time and so didn't take enough
                    notes - now of course I can't find the source.

                    I suspect the logic at the time went something like "black men
                    weren't elegible to serve, therefore didn't serve, so they are
                    lying", or more probably "weren't elegible to serve, therefore aren't
                    elegible for the land bounty granted to veterans".

                    I could try to run down the names of all the men known to have served
                    in his unit, and cross reference with bounty land applications, but I
                    have too many other projects going to take on another one at this
                    time... maybe in my retirement, if someone hasn't written a doctoral
                    thesis on it by then.

                    Regards,
                    Brian Smith


                    --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Colin,
                    >  
                    > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                    referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct
                    in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but
                    that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                    the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                    they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                    Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                    two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                    cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                    every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black and
                    I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as sailors.
                    >  
                    > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                    restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                    and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                    The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                    became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                    Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44 regiments
                    to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course, the
                    Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those years
                    but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the
                    west coast, that was damn few troops.
                    >
                    > Richard Lytle
                    >
                  • John Ogden
                    Interesting. I understand all too well about finding a tidbit of potential interest and not following up on it immediately because you were looking for
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 7 5:16 AM
                      Interesting. I understand all too well about finding a tidbit of potential
                      interest and not following up on it immediately because you were looking for
                      something else, then not being able to locate the randomly discovered item
                      later when you are free to follow up on it. If I had more free time to
                      devote to researching this, I would love to follow up on this. My wife is a
                      woman of color and, as a father and reenactor, I want our son to understand
                      that while African-Americans have usually been marginalized by
                      conventional/traditional historians, many did play pro-active and
                      significant roles in the formation of our Republic.

                      On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 11:24 PM, nappingcrow <nappingcrow@...> wrote:

                      > Hi Richard,
                      >
                      > This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that in
                      > spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were African-
                      > Americans serving in the regular US army during the War of 1812. I
                      > can't speculate as to numbers, but I believe today even the US Army
                      > states they served. (Sorry, it's late and I can't give you a proper
                      > citation.)
                      >
                      > The US National Archives notes the following:
                      > "African Americans also served in the Regular Army, primarily in the
                      > 26th Infantry. The notation "(B)" appears following their names in
                      > Appendix III for those whose physical description indicates black or
                      > mulatto skin color. Persons whose skin was described simply as "dark"
                      > are not indicated as "black" since they were probably "dark"
                      > caucasians. "Blacks" and "mulattos" noted during records
                      > arrangement... " and it goes on to list men in three different
                      > regiments, including the 26th infantry.
                      >
                      > LINK: http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/military/1812/discharge-
                      > certificates.html
                      >
                      > A number of years ago I ran across a list of 'denied' 1812 veteran
                      > bounty applications which appeared to have been denied simply because
                      > the applicants were black. The veterans were all from the 26th
                      > infantry, and served under Captain William Bezeau (also written as
                      > Begeau or Bezean in some other records) but like an idiot, I was
                      > looking for something else at the time and so didn't take enough
                      > notes - now of course I can't find the source.
                      >
                      > I suspect the logic at the time went something like "black men
                      > weren't elegible to serve, therefore didn't serve, so they are
                      > lying", or more probably "weren't elegible to serve, therefore aren't
                      > elegible for the land bounty granted to veterans".
                      >
                      > I could try to run down the names of all the men known to have served
                      > in his unit, and cross reference with bounty land applications, but I
                      > have too many other projects going to take on another one at this
                      > time... maybe in my retirement, if someone hasn't written a doctoral
                      > thesis on it by then.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Brian Smith
                      >
                      > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>, richard
                      > lytle <richard6616@...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Colin,
                      > >
                      > > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                      > referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct
                      > in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but
                      > that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                      > the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                      > they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                      > Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                      > two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                      > cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                      > every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black and
                      > I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as sailors.
                      > >
                      > > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                      > restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                      > and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                      > The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                      > became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                      > Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44 regiments
                      > to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course, the
                      > Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those years
                      > but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the
                      > west coast, that was damn few troops.
                      > >
                      > > Richard Lytle
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      --
                      John J. Ogden

                      "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
                      in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
                      particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James
                      Madison, June 20, 1785

                      "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense,
                      founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of
                      enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and, as the
                      said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any
                      Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising
                      from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony
                      existing between the two countries." -- Article 11 of the Treaty of Peace
                      and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli
                      of Barbary, 3 Junad 1211 (Muslim calendar), 4 November 1796 C.E..


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • richard lytle
                      Dear Brian, John, Colin, et al,   I m sure that most everyone will agree that between, say, 1820 and 1862, black soldiers in U.S. army uniforms just didn t
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 7 11:28 AM
                        Dear Brian, John, Colin, et al,
                         
                        I'm sure that most everyone will agree that between, say, 1820 and 1862, black soldiers in U.S. army uniforms just didn't exist---at least I have never seen or heard of any verifable source to contradict that statement. I agree with you that prior to 1815 there probably were some, especially during war time. Proving that there were some is the problem and if anyone knows where such proof may be found----PLEASE, I beg of you, tell me!!
                         
                        Bye the bye, Captain William Bezeau (spelling per Heitman's Historical Register and Dictionary) was transferred to the 26th Infantry as a first lieutenant "officially" on 12 May 1814 and promoted to captain "officially" on 1 August 1814. He was not retained in the service after the War of 1812 ended but was honorably discharged with the date of 15 June 1815 (the last three months "probably" saw him carried on the War Department rolls as his severance pay).
                         
                        I know that the continential lines of several middle states during the Revolutionary War contained a significant percentage of black soldiers, some free and some slave substitutes, and I know that there were several black citizens in Massachusetts who were listed in the 1790 cenus/land warrent rolls as veterans. Add them to the known service of blacks already mentioned and it becomes a distinct probability that some were in the ranks of land force regiments during the War of 1812 but so far the only way I have found to get any physical description of any soldier during those early years is to look through newspapers of the day and find advertisments of rewards for the return of deserters. Again, if anyone knows another source---please let me know.
                         
                        Richard Lytle
                         

                        --- On Wed, 1/7/09, John Ogden <johnjogden@...> wrote:

                        From: John Ogden <johnjogden@...>
                        Subject: Re: 1812 Re: African Americans in US Forces
                        To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 8:16 AM






                        Interesting. I understand all too well about finding a tidbit of potential
                        interest and not following up on it immediately because you were looking for
                        something else, then not being able to locate the randomly discovered item
                        later when you are free to follow up on it. If I had more free time to
                        devote to researching this, I would love to follow up on this. My wife is a
                        woman of color and, as a father and reenactor, I want our son to understand
                        that while African-Americans have usually been marginalized by
                        conventional/ traditional historians, many did play pro-active and
                        significant roles in the formation of our Republic.

                        On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 11:24 PM, nappingcrow <nappingcrow@ gmail.com> wrote:

                        > Hi Richard,
                        >
                        > This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that in
                        > spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were African-
                        > Americans serving in the regular US army during the War of 1812. I
                        > can't speculate as to numbers, but I believe today even the US Army
                        > states they served. (Sorry, it's late and I can't give you a proper
                        > citation.)
                        >
                        > The US National Archives notes the following:
                        > "African Americans also served in the Regular Army, primarily in the
                        > 26th Infantry. The notation "(B)" appears following their names in
                        > Appendix III for those whose physical description indicates black or
                        > mulatto skin color. Persons whose skin was described simply as "dark"
                        > are not indicated as "black" since they were probably "dark"
                        > caucasians. "Blacks" and "mulattos" noted during records
                        > arrangement. .. " and it goes on to list men in three different
                        > regiments, including the 26th infantry.
                        >
                        > LINK: http://www.archives .gov/genealogy/ military/ 1812/discharge-
                        > certificates. html
                        >
                        > A number of years ago I ran across a list of 'denied' 1812 veteran
                        > bounty applications which appeared to have been denied simply because
                        > the applicants were black. The veterans were all from the 26th
                        > infantry, and served under Captain William Bezeau (also written as
                        > Begeau or Bezean in some other records) but like an idiot, I was
                        > looking for something else at the time and so didn't take enough
                        > notes - now of course I can't find the source.
                        >
                        > I suspect the logic at the time went something like "black men
                        > weren't elegible to serve, therefore didn't serve, so they are
                        > lying", or more probably "weren't elegible to serve, therefore aren't
                        > elegible for the land bounty granted to veterans".
                        >
                        > I could try to run down the names of all the men known to have served
                        > in his unit, and cross reference with bounty land applications, but I
                        > have too many other projects going to take on another one at this
                        > time... maybe in my retirement, if someone hasn't written a doctoral
                        > thesis on it by then.
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        > Brian Smith
                        >
                        > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com <WarOf1812%40yahoog roups.com> , richard
                        > lytle <richard6616@ ...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Colin,
                        > >
                        > > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                        > referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct
                        > in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but
                        > that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                        > the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                        > they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                        > Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                        > two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                        > cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                        > every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black and
                        > I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as sailors.
                        > >
                        > > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                        > restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                        > and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                        > The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                        > became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                        > Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44 regiments
                        > to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course, the
                        > Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those years
                        > but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the
                        > west coast, that was damn few troops.
                        > >
                        > > Richard Lytle
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        --
                        John J. Ogden

                        "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
                        in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
                        particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James
                        Madison, June 20, 1785

                        "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense,
                        founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of
                        enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and, as the
                        said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any
                        Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising
                        from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony
                        existing between the two countries." -- Article 11 of the Treaty of Peace
                        and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli
                        of Barbary, 3 Junad 1211 (Muslim calendar), 4 November 1796 C.E..

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Craig Williams
                        I m sorry if I am repeating someone else s post only because I m looking at this subject line for the first time, (time being at a premium) but as far as the
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jan 7 11:40 AM
                          I'm sorry if I am repeating someone else's post only because I'm
                          looking at this subject line for the first time, (time being at a
                          premium) but as far as the question of the Black serviceman/sailor in
                          the US forces during the 1812 War, I have one suggestion for reference.
                          Gerry Altoff wrote an excellent book on the African-American called
                          "Amongst my best men".

                          Again apologies if I have repeated earlier information.

                          Craig Williams
                        • queenannsrevenge2002
                          When I was a young Lieutenatnt in command of my very first platton (Reconnaissance)I had a corporal - James Freeman. The last name being derived from the fact
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jan 7 5:05 PM
                            When I was a young Lieutenatnt in command of my very first platton
                            (Reconnaissance)I had a corporal - James Freeman. The last name
                            being derived from the fact that his ancestors were free blacks. He
                            was very proud of the fact that he was a decendant of one of "The
                            Free Men of Colour" who fought at the Battle of New Orelans. His
                            passion and professionalism for this fact was reflected every day as
                            a junior NCO. The down side - his family were also slave holders -
                            a fact that did not sit well with most of the other young men of
                            colour in his charge...

                            Martin


                            --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Colin,
                            >  
                            > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                            referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct
                            in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but
                            that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                            the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                            they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                            Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                            two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                            cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                            every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black
                            and I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as
                            sailors.
                            > Richard Lytle
                          • Jim
                            Just started reading a book called A Stranger and a Sojourner: Peter Caulder, Free Black Frontiersman in Antebellum Arkansas by Billy D. Higgins. The second
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jan 14 5:29 PM
                              Just started reading a book called "A Stranger and a Sojourner: Peter
                              Caulder, Free Black Frontiersman in Antebellum Arkansas" by Billy D.
                              Higgins. The second chapter relates the story of how Peter, a
                              mulatto, and five other African-American men from Marion County,
                              South Carolina enlisted in the U.S. Third Rifle Regiment as pioneers
                              in September 1814. After initial training in North Carolina, Peter
                              served his time during the war in the area around Norfolk, Virginia.
                              When the war ended he remained in the army for some time.

                              I have only finished a small portion of the book covering the time
                              just after the War of 1812 and so I am not sure how long Peter
                              remained in the regiment. He was with the regiment at least until
                              1819.

                              Because of books like this one and Gerard T. Altoff's "Amongst my
                              best men: African-Americans and The War of 1812" we are just starting
                              to explore this very interesting subject.

                              Regards,
                              Jim Greathouse

                              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "nappingcrow" <nappingcrow@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Richard,
                              >
                              > This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that
                              in
                              > spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were
                              African-
                              > Americans serving in the regular US army during the War of 1812. I
                              > can't speculate as to numbers, but I believe today even the US Army
                              > states they served. (Sorry, it's late and I can't give you a
                              proper
                              > citation.)
                              >
                              > The US National Archives notes the following:
                              > "African Americans also served in the Regular Army, primarily in
                              the
                              > 26th Infantry. The notation "(B)" appears following their names in
                              > Appendix III for those whose physical description indicates black
                              or
                              > mulatto skin color. Persons whose skin was described simply
                              as "dark"
                              > are not indicated as "black" since they were probably "dark"
                              > caucasians. "Blacks" and "mulattos" noted during records
                              > arrangement... " and it goes on to list men in three different
                              > regiments, including the 26th infantry.
                              >
                              > LINK: http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/military/1812/discharge-
                              > certificates.html
                              >
                              > A number of years ago I ran across a list of 'denied' 1812 veteran
                              > bounty applications which appeared to have been denied simply
                              because
                              > the applicants were black. The veterans were all from the 26th
                              > infantry, and served under Captain William Bezeau (also written as
                              > Begeau or Bezean in some other records) but like an idiot, I was
                              > looking for something else at the time and so didn't take enough
                              > notes - now of course I can't find the source.
                              >
                              > I suspect the logic at the time went something like "black men
                              > weren't elegible to serve, therefore didn't serve, so they are
                              > lying", or more probably "weren't elegible to serve, therefore
                              aren't
                              > elegible for the land bounty granted to veterans".
                              >
                              > I could try to run down the names of all the men known to have
                              served
                              > in his unit, and cross reference with bounty land applications, but
                              I
                              > have too many other projects going to take on another one at this
                              > time... maybe in my retirement, if someone hasn't written a
                              doctoral
                              > thesis on it by then.
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              > Brian Smith
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Colin,
                              > >  
                              > > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                              > referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite
                              correct
                              > in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually
                              but
                              > that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                              > the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                              > they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                              > Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                              > two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                              > cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                              > every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black
                              and
                              > I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as
                              sailors.
                              > >  
                              > > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                              > restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15,
                              1815,
                              > and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                              > The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                              > became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                              > Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44
                              regiments
                              > to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course,
                              the
                              > Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those
                              years
                              > but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the
                              > west coast, that was damn few troops.
                              > >
                              > > Richard Lytle
                              > >
                              >
                            • Colin
                              Has anyone every come across enlistment papers with the complexion being brown ? As been stated dark may be a dark Euro-American but a brown Euro
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jan 14 7:41 PM
                                Has anyone every come across enlistment papers with the complexion
                                being "brown"? As been stated dark may be a dark Euro-American but
                                a "brown " Euro American????

                                There is one Marine described
                                eyes: Hazel
                                hair: dark
                                Complexion: Brown

                                Born: Virginia
                                Enlisted: New Orleans
                                Previous occupation: Planter

                                YHOS
                                Colin Murphy
                                USS CON 1812 MG
                                USMCHC
                              • peter monahan
                                Richard Ran across this by accident today & thought it might be of interest, as it has a few pages on African Americans in the 1812 era US Army and Navy
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jan 15 12:13 PM
                                  Richard

                                  Ran across this by accident today & thought it might be of interest, as
                                  it has a few pages on African Americans in the 1812 era US Army and Navy

                                  http://books.google.com/books?
                                  id=eWQFAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=sierra+leone+history#PPA287,M1

                                  History of the Negro Race in America from 1619 to 1880
                                  By George Washington Williams
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