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Re: 1812 Re: Free Person’s of Colour was Sl avery in Upper Canada?

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  • richard lytle
    Michael,   Normally I just lurk on this message board just to be up-to-date on what is happening out in the active historical community but this time your
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 2, 2009
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      Michael,
       
      Normally I just lurk on this message board just to be up-to-date on what is happening out in the active historical community but this time your posting has me curious about something.
       
      Who's black soldiers were they?
       
      Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that either the U.S. Navy or Marines had them either. But the (U. S.) fugitive slave law was in operation in the 1850's and it was based upon an older law in the U.S. There were plenty of slave bounty hunters operating throughout the U. S. and I would not be all that surprised if they extended their operations into Canada. Theoritically, the incident could have happened---but with black soldiers?
       
      Just as a bit of trivia I will add that I  know that almost all black (white officers were still then assigned and white medical staff were assigned to the post hospitals) garrisons were at U. S. forts along the lower Great Lakes at one point early in the 1900's but that was long after the issue of slavery had been addressed by the 13th, 14th and 15th Admendments to the U. S. constitution.
       
      Richard Lytle
        

      --- On Fri, 1/2/09, whittakermp <whittakermp@...> wrote:

      From: whittakermp <whittakermp@...>
      Subject: 1812 Re: Free Person’s of Colour was Slavery in Upper Canada?
      To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 11:46 AM






      I vaguely recall an incident of near mutiny at Fort George Pre-civil
      War when Black soldiers were forced to surrender an escaped slave they
      were harbouring. Ring any bells?

      Michael


















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kevin Windsor
      Happy new year all! What Michael is referring to if the Moseby Affair of 1837. Solomon Moseby stole his master s horse and escaped to Niagara. The owner of
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 2, 2009
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        Happy new year all!

        What Michael is referring to if the Moseby Affair of 1837. Solomon Moseby
        stole his master's horse and escaped to Niagara. The owner of the horse had
        him arrested for theft and demanded his extradition back to Kentucky. The
        Lieutenant Governor of Upper Canada returned Moseby because he was guilty of
        theft and not back into slavery. (though he was fully aware of what would
        happen to Moseby)
        The subsequent riot that occurred wasn't because of the Militia it was
        because of the nearly 400 supporters that gathered around to stop the
        extradition. In the end the soldiers (I can't remember if they were
        regulars or militia) killed two people and Moseby escaped. He made his way
        to England.

        As to bounty hunters not coming into Upper Canada, they did frequently.
        There were warnings posted for blacks to be aware. Many of the Canadian
        border towns had safe houses to hide escaped slaves from slave catchers.

        A trip to the Lundy's Lane Historical Museum will give you information on
        slavery in Upper Canada and the history of the Black community in Niagara
        since. Combine that with a trip to the Nathaniel Dett British Methodist
        Episcopalian Church and you will have the whole experience!

        Kevin
        89th



        ________________________________________
        From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of richard lytle


        Michael,
         
        Normally I just lurk on this message board just to be up-to-date on what is
        happening out in the active historical community but this time your posting
        has me curious about something.
         
        Who's black soldiers were they?
         
        Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that either
        the U.S. Navy or Marines had them either. But the (U. S.) fugitive slave law
        was in operation in the 1850's and it was based upon an older law in the
        U.S. There were plenty of slave bounty hunters operating throughout the U.
        S. and I would not be all that surprised if they extended their operations
        into Canada. Theoritically, the incident could have happened---but with
        black soldiers?
         
        Just as a bit of trivia I will add that I  know that almost all black (white
        officers were still then assigned and white medical staff were assigned to
        the post hospitals) garrisons were at U. S. forts along the lower Great
        Lakes at one point early in the 1900's but that was long after the issue of
        slavery had been addressed by the 13th, 14th and 15th Admendments to the U.
        S. constitution.
         
        Richard Lytle
          

        --- On Fri, 1/2/09, whittakermp <whittakermp@...> wrote:

        From: whittakermp <whittakermp@...>

        I vaguely recall an incident of near mutiny at Fort George Pre-civil
        War when Black soldiers were forced to surrender an escaped slave they
        were harbouring. Ring any bells?

        Michael
      • Will Tatum
        Hi Kevin, A friend and I were on a day trip to Upper Canada this past July and could not find the Lundy s Lane museum. We found the monument to the battle in
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 2, 2009
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          Hi Kevin,
          A friend and I were on a day trip to Upper Canada this past July and
          could not find the Lundy's Lane museum. We found the monument to the battle
          in the Grave yard, though, which was pretty cool. I was hoping to meet you,
          though.


          Yr Svt,
          Will Tatum



          On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Kevin Windsor
          <kevin.windsor@...>wrote:

          > Happy new year all!
          >
          > What Michael is referring to if the Moseby Affair of 1837. Solomon Moseby
          > stole his master's horse and escaped to Niagara. The owner of the horse had
          > him arrested for theft and demanded his extradition back to Kentucky. The
          > Lieutenant Governor of Upper Canada returned Moseby because he was guilty
          > of
          > theft and not back into slavery. (though he was fully aware of what would
          > happen to Moseby)
          > The subsequent riot that occurred wasn't because of the Militia it was
          > because of the nearly 400 supporters that gathered around to stop the
          > extradition. In the end the soldiers (I can't remember if they were
          > regulars or militia) killed two people and Moseby escaped. He made his way
          > to England.
          >
          > As to bounty hunters not coming into Upper Canada, they did frequently.
          > There were warnings posted for blacks to be aware. Many of the Canadian
          > border towns had safe houses to hide escaped slaves from slave catchers.
          >
          > A trip to the Lundy's Lane Historical Museum will give you information on
          > slavery in Upper Canada and the history of the Black community in Niagara
          > since. Combine that with a trip to the Nathaniel Dett British Methodist
          > Episcopalian Church and you will have the whole experience!
          >
          > Kevin
          > 89th
          >
          > ________________________________________
          > From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
          > WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
          > Of richard lytle
          >
          > Michael,
          >
          > Normally I just lurk on this message board just to be up-to-date on what is
          > happening out in the active historical community but this time your posting
          > has me curious about something.
          >
          > Who's black soldiers were they?
          >
          > Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that either
          > the U.S. Navy or Marines had them either. But the (U. S.) fugitive slave
          > law
          > was in operation in the 1850's and it was based upon an older law in the
          > U.S. There were plenty of slave bounty hunters operating throughout the U.
          > S. and I would not be all that surprised if they extended their operations
          > into Canada. Theoritically, the incident could have happened---but with
          > black soldiers?
          >
          > Just as a bit of trivia I will add that I know that almost all black
          > (white
          > officers were still then assigned and white medical staff were assigned to
          > the post hospitals) garrisons were at U. S. forts along the lower Great
          > Lakes at one point early in the 1900's but that was long after the issue of
          > slavery had been addressed by the 13th, 14th and 15th Admendments to the U.
          > S. constitution.
          >
          > Richard Lytle
          >
          >
          > --- On Fri, 1/2/09, whittakermp <whittakermp@...<whittakermp%40yahoo.ca>>
          > wrote:
          >
          > From: whittakermp <whittakermp@... <whittakermp%40yahoo.ca>>
          >
          > I vaguely recall an incident of near mutiny at Fort George Pre-civil
          > War when Black soldiers were forced to surrender an escaped slave they
          > were harbouring. Ring any bells?
          >
          > Michael
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Kevin Windsor
          You were in the right area Will! At the top of the hill, across the street from the Monument is a white house. That is the Battle Ground Hotel Museum. At the
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 2, 2009
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            You were in the right area Will!

            At the top of the hill, across the street from the Monument is a white
            house. That is the Battle Ground Hotel Museum. At the bottom of the hill is
            a large stone building. That is the Lundy's Lane Museum. I look after
            both.



            KW



            _____

            From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Will Tatum





            Hi Kevin,
            A friend and I were on a day trip to Upper Canada this past July and
            could not find the Lundy's Lane museum. We found the monument to the battle
            in the Grave yard, though, which was pretty cool. I was hoping to meet you,
            though.

            Yr Svt,
            Will Tatum






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Colin
            RL wrote: Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that either the U.S. Navy or Marines had them either. From what I recall I heard
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 5, 2009
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              RL wrote:
              "Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that
              either the
              U.S. Navy or Marines had them either."


              From what I recall I heard that a large portion of the regiments
              raised in 1813 and 14 were African Americans and soon after the war
              there was a purge and African Americans did not return to the US Army
              until 1862 as mentioned Perhaps someone can elaborate..

              The US Navy also had plenty of African Americans... See LLs example
              also I conference was held at the USS Constitution Museum a few years
              back and a speaker gave a great talk on the African Americans in the
              US Navy.


              As to the Marine Corps the Jury is still out

              They were not supposed to be there but we have found numerous
              enlistees described as "dark complexion" "black hair" "black eyes" one
              listed as a "planter" from Virginia

              YHOS
              Colin Murphy
              USS CON 1812 MG
              USMCHC
            • richard lytle
              Colin,   In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct in that plenty of
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 6, 2009
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                Colin,
                 
                In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black and I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as sailors.
                 
                The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815, and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up. The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44 regiments to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course, the Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those years but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the west coast, that was damn few troops.
                 
                Richard Lytle

                --- On Mon, 1/5/09, Colin <usmarine1814@...> wrote:

                From: Colin <usmarine1814@...>
                Subject: 1812 Re: Free Person’s of Colour now African Americans in US Forces
                To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:17 AM






                RL wrote:
                "Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that
                either the
                U.S. Navy or Marines had them either."

                From what I recall I heard that a large portion of the regiments
                raised in 1813 and 14 were African Americans and soon after the war
                there was a purge and African Americans did not return to the US Army
                until 1862 as mentioned Perhaps someone can elaborate..

                The US Navy also had plenty of African Americans... See LLs example
                also I conference was held at the USS Constitution Museum a few years
                back and a speaker gave a great talk on the African Americans in the
                US Navy.

                As to the Marine Corps the Jury is still out

                They were not supposed to be there but we have found numerous
                enlistees described as "dark complexion" "black hair" "black eyes" one
                listed as a "planter" from Virginia

                YHOS
                Colin Murphy
                USS CON 1812 MG
                USMCHC


















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • James Yaworsky
                ... [snip] ... restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815, and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up. The
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 6, 2009
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                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@...> wrote:
                  [snip]
                  > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                  restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                  and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                  The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                  became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                  Infantry, etc, etc.

                  You've got me curious, Richard. What was the reason for the 1st
                  becoming the 3rd, the 2nd the 1st, the 6th the new 2nd, etc? To those
                  of us not in the know, it sounds rather like a pointless random
                  shuffle, or the results of a game of musical chairs!

                  Jim Yaworsky
                  41st
                • richard lytle
                  Hello, James. Hope you are recovering from the holidays.   Right now I am in the process of researching and writing a book covering the use of U.S. Military
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 6, 2009
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                    Hello, James. Hope you are recovering from the holidays.
                     
                    Right now I am in the process of researching and writing a book covering the use of U.S. Military ground forces from between 1789 and 1815. One of the reasons that I am monitoring this listserv, bye the way. Anyway, the answer to your question is relatively simple if you consider the standard practice of that time. Typically, the original records of the late 1790s and early 1800s that I have seen numbered the regiments but the companies were designated by their commanding officers even though they were given numbers one through twelve within the regiment. Therefore,the reorganized regiments were re-numbered in 1815 "ACCORDING TO THE SENIORITY OF SERVICE OF THEIR COMMANDING OFFICERS."
                     
                    At least, that is the "official version" currently available in any known documents. Un-officially, there is the problem of most of the old First Infantry having been surrendered by Hull at Detroit in 1812 (and no one knows where the regimental colors went) and most of the old Second Infantry having been surrendered by Major (bvt. Lt. Col.) Lawrence which concluded the seige of Fort Bowyer located at Mobile Point in February, 1815. Those regimental colors went to England and are still in the possession of the War Museum in the old Chelsea Royal Hospital where I am told, very recently, the originals are in archival storage and replicas hang in the Great Hall in their place. Therefore, I believe that the plan to renumber as well as reorganize the regiments was concocted to erase those surrenders (even though they were not the fault of the men in those regiments) and restart the heritage from scratch. No proof, though!
                     
                    Richard lytle

                    --- On Tue, 1/6/09, James Yaworsky <yawors1@...> wrote:

                    From: James Yaworsky <yawors1@...>
                    Subject: 1812 1816 shakeup of US army
                    To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:26 PM






                    --- In WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com, richard lytle <richard6616@ ...> wrote:
                    [snip]
                    > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                    restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                    and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                    The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                    became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                    Infantry, etc, etc.

                    You've got me curious, Richard. What was the reason for the 1st
                    becoming the 3rd, the 2nd the 1st, the 6th the new 2nd, etc? To those
                    of us not in the know, it sounds rather like a pointless random
                    shuffle, or the results of a game of musical chairs!

                    Jim Yaworsky
                    41st


















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • James Yaworsky
                    ... Thanks, Richard. As I am partly of Ukrainian heritage, I am in fact preparing for our big Orthodox Xmas Eve family meal as I type this... the Holidays
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 6, 2009
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                      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello, James. Hope you are recovering from the holidays.
                      >  

                      Thanks, Richard. As I am partly of Ukrainian heritage, I am in fact
                      preparing for our big Orthodox Xmas Eve family meal as I type this...
                      the Holidays just go on and on and on in this household! ;>)

                      [snip] Anyway, the answer to your question is relatively simple if you
                      consider the standard practice of that time. Typically, the original
                      records of the late 1790s and early 1800s that I have seen numbered
                      the regiments but the companies were designated by their commanding
                      officers even though they were given numbers one through twelve within
                      the regiment. Therefore,the reorganized regiments were re-numbered in
                      1815 "ACCORDING TO THE SENIORITY OF SERVICE OF THEIR COMMANDING
                      OFFICERS."

                      Thanks, Richard. That does indeed make perfect sense to a student of
                      the British army, especially when looking at its formative years in
                      the Marlborough era.

                      >  
                      > At least, that is the "official version" currently available in any
                      known documents. Un-officially, there is the problem of most of the
                      old First Infantry having been surrendered by Hull at Detroit in 1812
                      (and no one knows where the regimental colors went) and most of the
                      old Second Infantry having been surrendered by Major (bvt. Lt. Col.)
                      Lawrence which concluded the seige of Fort Bowyer located at Mobile
                      Point in February, 1815. Those regimental colors went to England and
                      are still in the possession of the War Museum in the old Chelsea Royal
                      Hospital where I am told, very recently, the originals are in archival
                      storage and replicas hang in the Great Hall in their place. Therefore,
                      I believe that the plan to renumber as well as reorganize the
                      regiments was concocted to erase those surrenders (even though they
                      were not the fault of the men in those regiments) and restart the
                      heritage from scratch. No proof, though!
                      >  
                      > Richard lytle

                      Richard, you might be interested to learn that the Welch Regiment'sl
                      Museum (formerly 41st) in Cardiff, Wales, has some "souvenirs"
                      collected by the 41st from the Detroit surrender in its collections.
                      Going by memory here, but I think they have the Regimental Color of
                      the U.S. 4th?

                      Jim Yaworsky
                      41st
                    • nappingcrow
                      Hi Richard, This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that in spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were African-
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 6, 2009
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                        Hi Richard,

                        This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that in
                        spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were African-
                        Americans serving in the regular US army during the War of 1812. I
                        can't speculate as to numbers, but I believe today even the US Army
                        states they served. (Sorry, it's late and I can't give you a proper
                        citation.)

                        The US National Archives notes the following:
                        "African Americans also served in the Regular Army, primarily in the
                        26th Infantry. The notation "(B)" appears following their names in
                        Appendix III for those whose physical description indicates black or
                        mulatto skin color. Persons whose skin was described simply as "dark"
                        are not indicated as "black" since they were probably "dark"
                        caucasians. "Blacks" and "mulattos" noted during records
                        arrangement... " and it goes on to list men in three different
                        regiments, including the 26th infantry.

                        LINK: http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/military/1812/discharge-
                        certificates.html

                        A number of years ago I ran across a list of 'denied' 1812 veteran
                        bounty applications which appeared to have been denied simply because
                        the applicants were black. The veterans were all from the 26th
                        infantry, and served under Captain William Bezeau (also written as
                        Begeau or Bezean in some other records) but like an idiot, I was
                        looking for something else at the time and so didn't take enough
                        notes - now of course I can't find the source.

                        I suspect the logic at the time went something like "black men
                        weren't elegible to serve, therefore didn't serve, so they are
                        lying", or more probably "weren't elegible to serve, therefore aren't
                        elegible for the land bounty granted to veterans".

                        I could try to run down the names of all the men known to have served
                        in his unit, and cross reference with bounty land applications, but I
                        have too many other projects going to take on another one at this
                        time... maybe in my retirement, if someone hasn't written a doctoral
                        thesis on it by then.

                        Regards,
                        Brian Smith


                        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Colin,
                        >  
                        > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                        referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct
                        in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but
                        that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                        the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                        they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                        Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                        two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                        cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                        every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black and
                        I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as sailors.
                        >  
                        > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                        restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                        and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                        The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                        became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                        Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44 regiments
                        to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course, the
                        Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those years
                        but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the
                        west coast, that was damn few troops.
                        >
                        > Richard Lytle
                        >
                      • John Ogden
                        Interesting. I understand all too well about finding a tidbit of potential interest and not following up on it immediately because you were looking for
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jan 7, 2009
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                          Interesting. I understand all too well about finding a tidbit of potential
                          interest and not following up on it immediately because you were looking for
                          something else, then not being able to locate the randomly discovered item
                          later when you are free to follow up on it. If I had more free time to
                          devote to researching this, I would love to follow up on this. My wife is a
                          woman of color and, as a father and reenactor, I want our son to understand
                          that while African-Americans have usually been marginalized by
                          conventional/traditional historians, many did play pro-active and
                          significant roles in the formation of our Republic.

                          On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 11:24 PM, nappingcrow <nappingcrow@...> wrote:

                          > Hi Richard,
                          >
                          > This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that in
                          > spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were African-
                          > Americans serving in the regular US army during the War of 1812. I
                          > can't speculate as to numbers, but I believe today even the US Army
                          > states they served. (Sorry, it's late and I can't give you a proper
                          > citation.)
                          >
                          > The US National Archives notes the following:
                          > "African Americans also served in the Regular Army, primarily in the
                          > 26th Infantry. The notation "(B)" appears following their names in
                          > Appendix III for those whose physical description indicates black or
                          > mulatto skin color. Persons whose skin was described simply as "dark"
                          > are not indicated as "black" since they were probably "dark"
                          > caucasians. "Blacks" and "mulattos" noted during records
                          > arrangement... " and it goes on to list men in three different
                          > regiments, including the 26th infantry.
                          >
                          > LINK: http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/military/1812/discharge-
                          > certificates.html
                          >
                          > A number of years ago I ran across a list of 'denied' 1812 veteran
                          > bounty applications which appeared to have been denied simply because
                          > the applicants were black. The veterans were all from the 26th
                          > infantry, and served under Captain William Bezeau (also written as
                          > Begeau or Bezean in some other records) but like an idiot, I was
                          > looking for something else at the time and so didn't take enough
                          > notes - now of course I can't find the source.
                          >
                          > I suspect the logic at the time went something like "black men
                          > weren't elegible to serve, therefore didn't serve, so they are
                          > lying", or more probably "weren't elegible to serve, therefore aren't
                          > elegible for the land bounty granted to veterans".
                          >
                          > I could try to run down the names of all the men known to have served
                          > in his unit, and cross reference with bounty land applications, but I
                          > have too many other projects going to take on another one at this
                          > time... maybe in my retirement, if someone hasn't written a doctoral
                          > thesis on it by then.
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          > Brian Smith
                          >
                          > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>, richard
                          > lytle <richard6616@...>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Colin,
                          > >
                          > > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                          > referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct
                          > in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but
                          > that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                          > the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                          > they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                          > Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                          > two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                          > cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                          > every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black and
                          > I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as sailors.
                          > >
                          > > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                          > restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                          > and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                          > The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                          > became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                          > Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44 regiments
                          > to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course, the
                          > Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those years
                          > but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the
                          > west coast, that was damn few troops.
                          > >
                          > > Richard Lytle
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          --
                          John J. Ogden

                          "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
                          in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
                          particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James
                          Madison, June 20, 1785

                          "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense,
                          founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of
                          enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and, as the
                          said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any
                          Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising
                          from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony
                          existing between the two countries." -- Article 11 of the Treaty of Peace
                          and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli
                          of Barbary, 3 Junad 1211 (Muslim calendar), 4 November 1796 C.E..


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • richard lytle
                          Dear Brian, John, Colin, et al,   I m sure that most everyone will agree that between, say, 1820 and 1862, black soldiers in U.S. army uniforms just didn t
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jan 7, 2009
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                            Dear Brian, John, Colin, et al,
                             
                            I'm sure that most everyone will agree that between, say, 1820 and 1862, black soldiers in U.S. army uniforms just didn't exist---at least I have never seen or heard of any verifable source to contradict that statement. I agree with you that prior to 1815 there probably were some, especially during war time. Proving that there were some is the problem and if anyone knows where such proof may be found----PLEASE, I beg of you, tell me!!
                             
                            Bye the bye, Captain William Bezeau (spelling per Heitman's Historical Register and Dictionary) was transferred to the 26th Infantry as a first lieutenant "officially" on 12 May 1814 and promoted to captain "officially" on 1 August 1814. He was not retained in the service after the War of 1812 ended but was honorably discharged with the date of 15 June 1815 (the last three months "probably" saw him carried on the War Department rolls as his severance pay).
                             
                            I know that the continential lines of several middle states during the Revolutionary War contained a significant percentage of black soldiers, some free and some slave substitutes, and I know that there were several black citizens in Massachusetts who were listed in the 1790 cenus/land warrent rolls as veterans. Add them to the known service of blacks already mentioned and it becomes a distinct probability that some were in the ranks of land force regiments during the War of 1812 but so far the only way I have found to get any physical description of any soldier during those early years is to look through newspapers of the day and find advertisments of rewards for the return of deserters. Again, if anyone knows another source---please let me know.
                             
                            Richard Lytle
                             

                            --- On Wed, 1/7/09, John Ogden <johnjogden@...> wrote:

                            From: John Ogden <johnjogden@...>
                            Subject: Re: 1812 Re: African Americans in US Forces
                            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 8:16 AM






                            Interesting. I understand all too well about finding a tidbit of potential
                            interest and not following up on it immediately because you were looking for
                            something else, then not being able to locate the randomly discovered item
                            later when you are free to follow up on it. If I had more free time to
                            devote to researching this, I would love to follow up on this. My wife is a
                            woman of color and, as a father and reenactor, I want our son to understand
                            that while African-Americans have usually been marginalized by
                            conventional/ traditional historians, many did play pro-active and
                            significant roles in the formation of our Republic.

                            On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 11:24 PM, nappingcrow <nappingcrow@ gmail.com> wrote:

                            > Hi Richard,
                            >
                            > This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that in
                            > spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were African-
                            > Americans serving in the regular US army during the War of 1812. I
                            > can't speculate as to numbers, but I believe today even the US Army
                            > states they served. (Sorry, it's late and I can't give you a proper
                            > citation.)
                            >
                            > The US National Archives notes the following:
                            > "African Americans also served in the Regular Army, primarily in the
                            > 26th Infantry. The notation "(B)" appears following their names in
                            > Appendix III for those whose physical description indicates black or
                            > mulatto skin color. Persons whose skin was described simply as "dark"
                            > are not indicated as "black" since they were probably "dark"
                            > caucasians. "Blacks" and "mulattos" noted during records
                            > arrangement. .. " and it goes on to list men in three different
                            > regiments, including the 26th infantry.
                            >
                            > LINK: http://www.archives .gov/genealogy/ military/ 1812/discharge-
                            > certificates. html
                            >
                            > A number of years ago I ran across a list of 'denied' 1812 veteran
                            > bounty applications which appeared to have been denied simply because
                            > the applicants were black. The veterans were all from the 26th
                            > infantry, and served under Captain William Bezeau (also written as
                            > Begeau or Bezean in some other records) but like an idiot, I was
                            > looking for something else at the time and so didn't take enough
                            > notes - now of course I can't find the source.
                            >
                            > I suspect the logic at the time went something like "black men
                            > weren't elegible to serve, therefore didn't serve, so they are
                            > lying", or more probably "weren't elegible to serve, therefore aren't
                            > elegible for the land bounty granted to veterans".
                            >
                            > I could try to run down the names of all the men known to have served
                            > in his unit, and cross reference with bounty land applications, but I
                            > have too many other projects going to take on another one at this
                            > time... maybe in my retirement, if someone hasn't written a doctoral
                            > thesis on it by then.
                            >
                            > Regards,
                            > Brian Smith
                            >
                            > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com <WarOf1812%40yahoog roups.com> , richard
                            > lytle <richard6616@ ...>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Colin,
                            > >
                            > > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                            > referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct
                            > in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but
                            > that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                            > the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                            > they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                            > Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                            > two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                            > cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                            > every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black and
                            > I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as sailors.
                            > >
                            > > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                            > restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                            > and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                            > The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                            > became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                            > Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44 regiments
                            > to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course, the
                            > Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those years
                            > but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the
                            > west coast, that was damn few troops.
                            > >
                            > > Richard Lytle
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            --
                            John J. Ogden

                            "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
                            in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
                            particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James
                            Madison, June 20, 1785

                            "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense,
                            founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of
                            enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and, as the
                            said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any
                            Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising
                            from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony
                            existing between the two countries." -- Article 11 of the Treaty of Peace
                            and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli
                            of Barbary, 3 Junad 1211 (Muslim calendar), 4 November 1796 C.E..

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Craig Williams
                            I m sorry if I am repeating someone else s post only because I m looking at this subject line for the first time, (time being at a premium) but as far as the
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jan 7, 2009
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                              I'm sorry if I am repeating someone else's post only because I'm
                              looking at this subject line for the first time, (time being at a
                              premium) but as far as the question of the Black serviceman/sailor in
                              the US forces during the 1812 War, I have one suggestion for reference.
                              Gerry Altoff wrote an excellent book on the African-American called
                              "Amongst my best men".

                              Again apologies if I have repeated earlier information.

                              Craig Williams
                            • queenannsrevenge2002
                              When I was a young Lieutenatnt in command of my very first platton (Reconnaissance)I had a corporal - James Freeman. The last name being derived from the fact
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jan 7, 2009
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                                When I was a young Lieutenatnt in command of my very first platton
                                (Reconnaissance)I had a corporal - James Freeman. The last name
                                being derived from the fact that his ancestors were free blacks. He
                                was very proud of the fact that he was a decendant of one of "The
                                Free Men of Colour" who fought at the Battle of New Orelans. His
                                passion and professionalism for this fact was reflected every day as
                                a junior NCO. The down side - his family were also slave holders -
                                a fact that did not sit well with most of the other young men of
                                colour in his charge...

                                Martin


                                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Colin,
                                >  
                                > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                                referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct
                                in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but
                                that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                                the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                                they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                                Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                                two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                                cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                                every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black
                                and I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as
                                sailors.
                                > Richard Lytle
                              • Jim
                                Just started reading a book called A Stranger and a Sojourner: Peter Caulder, Free Black Frontiersman in Antebellum Arkansas by Billy D. Higgins. The second
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jan 14, 2009
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                                  Just started reading a book called "A Stranger and a Sojourner: Peter
                                  Caulder, Free Black Frontiersman in Antebellum Arkansas" by Billy D.
                                  Higgins. The second chapter relates the story of how Peter, a
                                  mulatto, and five other African-American men from Marion County,
                                  South Carolina enlisted in the U.S. Third Rifle Regiment as pioneers
                                  in September 1814. After initial training in North Carolina, Peter
                                  served his time during the war in the area around Norfolk, Virginia.
                                  When the war ended he remained in the army for some time.

                                  I have only finished a small portion of the book covering the time
                                  just after the War of 1812 and so I am not sure how long Peter
                                  remained in the regiment. He was with the regiment at least until
                                  1819.

                                  Because of books like this one and Gerard T. Altoff's "Amongst my
                                  best men: African-Americans and The War of 1812" we are just starting
                                  to explore this very interesting subject.

                                  Regards,
                                  Jim Greathouse

                                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "nappingcrow" <nappingcrow@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi Richard,
                                  >
                                  > This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that
                                  in
                                  > spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were
                                  African-
                                  > Americans serving in the regular US army during the War of 1812. I
                                  > can't speculate as to numbers, but I believe today even the US Army
                                  > states they served. (Sorry, it's late and I can't give you a
                                  proper
                                  > citation.)
                                  >
                                  > The US National Archives notes the following:
                                  > "African Americans also served in the Regular Army, primarily in
                                  the
                                  > 26th Infantry. The notation "(B)" appears following their names in
                                  > Appendix III for those whose physical description indicates black
                                  or
                                  > mulatto skin color. Persons whose skin was described simply
                                  as "dark"
                                  > are not indicated as "black" since they were probably "dark"
                                  > caucasians. "Blacks" and "mulattos" noted during records
                                  > arrangement... " and it goes on to list men in three different
                                  > regiments, including the 26th infantry.
                                  >
                                  > LINK: http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/military/1812/discharge-
                                  > certificates.html
                                  >
                                  > A number of years ago I ran across a list of 'denied' 1812 veteran
                                  > bounty applications which appeared to have been denied simply
                                  because
                                  > the applicants were black. The veterans were all from the 26th
                                  > infantry, and served under Captain William Bezeau (also written as
                                  > Begeau or Bezean in some other records) but like an idiot, I was
                                  > looking for something else at the time and so didn't take enough
                                  > notes - now of course I can't find the source.
                                  >
                                  > I suspect the logic at the time went something like "black men
                                  > weren't elegible to serve, therefore didn't serve, so they are
                                  > lying", or more probably "weren't elegible to serve, therefore
                                  aren't
                                  > elegible for the land bounty granted to veterans".
                                  >
                                  > I could try to run down the names of all the men known to have
                                  served
                                  > in his unit, and cross reference with bounty land applications, but
                                  I
                                  > have too many other projects going to take on another one at this
                                  > time... maybe in my retirement, if someone hasn't written a
                                  doctoral
                                  > thesis on it by then.
                                  >
                                  > Regards,
                                  > Brian Smith
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Colin,
                                  > >  
                                  > > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                                  > referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite
                                  correct
                                  > in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually
                                  but
                                  > that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                                  > the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                                  > they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                                  > Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                                  > two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                                  > cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                                  > every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black
                                  and
                                  > I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as
                                  sailors.
                                  > >  
                                  > > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                                  > restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15,
                                  1815,
                                  > and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                                  > The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                                  > became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                                  > Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44
                                  regiments
                                  > to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course,
                                  the
                                  > Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those
                                  years
                                  > but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the
                                  > west coast, that was damn few troops.
                                  > >
                                  > > Richard Lytle
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Colin
                                  Has anyone every come across enlistment papers with the complexion being brown ? As been stated dark may be a dark Euro-American but a brown Euro
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jan 14, 2009
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                                    Has anyone every come across enlistment papers with the complexion
                                    being "brown"? As been stated dark may be a dark Euro-American but
                                    a "brown " Euro American????

                                    There is one Marine described
                                    eyes: Hazel
                                    hair: dark
                                    Complexion: Brown

                                    Born: Virginia
                                    Enlisted: New Orleans
                                    Previous occupation: Planter

                                    YHOS
                                    Colin Murphy
                                    USS CON 1812 MG
                                    USMCHC
                                  • peter monahan
                                    Richard Ran across this by accident today & thought it might be of interest, as it has a few pages on African Americans in the 1812 era US Army and Navy
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jan 15, 2009
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                                      Richard

                                      Ran across this by accident today & thought it might be of interest, as
                                      it has a few pages on African Americans in the 1812 era US Army and Navy

                                      http://books.google.com/books?
                                      id=eWQFAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=sierra+leone+history#PPA287,M1

                                      History of the Negro Race in America from 1619 to 1880
                                      By George Washington Williams
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