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Re: Free Person’s of Colour was Slavery in Upper Canada?

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  • peter monahan
    One can also find, with only a little hunting, the cabin of the man on whom Uncle Tom of Uncle Tom s Cabin was based. The Queen s Bush , west of Shelburne
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 1, 2009
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      One can also find, with only a little hunting, the cabin of the man
      on whom "Uncle Tom" of Uncle Tom's Cabin was based. "The Queen's
      Bush", west of Shelburne on the Bruce Peninsula, was an area settled
      by free blacks in the early to mid-nineteenth century and a frequent
      destination of escaped slaves from the US. Collingwood was the
      extreme northern terminus of the Underground Railway and I've been
      told that it employed a number of blacks in the shipyards. Some of
      them, it's said, worked,on Confederate commerce raiders which were
      built there. Ironic, no?

      As to the sale of "Canadian slaves" to the US, I should think it was
      regerded, while a scandal, much like the sale of livestock or
      the 'disciplining' of one's wife and children: a private matter
      generally of interest to no one but the participants. Sadly, many
      decent Canadians and Americans probably rgarded it that way too.

      I have met a black [Afro-Canadian person of colour] who told me that
      her ancestor, an escaped slave, originally settled in Holland Landing
      at the foot of Lake Simcoe but moved on into the bush around Willow
      Creek Depot because he feared being captured and returned south by
      slave hunters. I don't know the law here on it but certainly in the
      US it was a federal offence to interfere with the efforts of bounty
      hunters to return slaves to their rightful owners.
    • whittakermp
      I vaguely recall an incident of near mutiny at Fort George Pre-civil War when Black soldiers were forced to surrender an escaped slave they were harbouring.
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 2, 2009
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        I vaguely recall an incident of near mutiny at Fort George Pre-civil
        War when Black soldiers were forced to surrender an escaped slave they
        were harbouring. Ring any bells?

        Michael
      • richard lytle
        Michael,   Normally I just lurk on this message board just to be up-to-date on what is happening out in the active historical community but this time your
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 2, 2009
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          Michael,
           
          Normally I just lurk on this message board just to be up-to-date on what is happening out in the active historical community but this time your posting has me curious about something.
           
          Who's black soldiers were they?
           
          Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that either the U.S. Navy or Marines had them either. But the (U. S.) fugitive slave law was in operation in the 1850's and it was based upon an older law in the U.S. There were plenty of slave bounty hunters operating throughout the U. S. and I would not be all that surprised if they extended their operations into Canada. Theoritically, the incident could have happened---but with black soldiers?
           
          Just as a bit of trivia I will add that I  know that almost all black (white officers were still then assigned and white medical staff were assigned to the post hospitals) garrisons were at U. S. forts along the lower Great Lakes at one point early in the 1900's but that was long after the issue of slavery had been addressed by the 13th, 14th and 15th Admendments to the U. S. constitution.
           
          Richard Lytle
            

          --- On Fri, 1/2/09, whittakermp <whittakermp@...> wrote:

          From: whittakermp <whittakermp@...>
          Subject: 1812 Re: Free Person’s of Colour was Slavery in Upper Canada?
          To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 11:46 AM






          I vaguely recall an incident of near mutiny at Fort George Pre-civil
          War when Black soldiers were forced to surrender an escaped slave they
          were harbouring. Ring any bells?

          Michael


















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Kevin Windsor
          Happy new year all! What Michael is referring to if the Moseby Affair of 1837. Solomon Moseby stole his master s horse and escaped to Niagara. The owner of
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 2, 2009
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            Happy new year all!

            What Michael is referring to if the Moseby Affair of 1837. Solomon Moseby
            stole his master's horse and escaped to Niagara. The owner of the horse had
            him arrested for theft and demanded his extradition back to Kentucky. The
            Lieutenant Governor of Upper Canada returned Moseby because he was guilty of
            theft and not back into slavery. (though he was fully aware of what would
            happen to Moseby)
            The subsequent riot that occurred wasn't because of the Militia it was
            because of the nearly 400 supporters that gathered around to stop the
            extradition. In the end the soldiers (I can't remember if they were
            regulars or militia) killed two people and Moseby escaped. He made his way
            to England.

            As to bounty hunters not coming into Upper Canada, they did frequently.
            There were warnings posted for blacks to be aware. Many of the Canadian
            border towns had safe houses to hide escaped slaves from slave catchers.

            A trip to the Lundy's Lane Historical Museum will give you information on
            slavery in Upper Canada and the history of the Black community in Niagara
            since. Combine that with a trip to the Nathaniel Dett British Methodist
            Episcopalian Church and you will have the whole experience!

            Kevin
            89th



            ________________________________________
            From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of richard lytle


            Michael,
             
            Normally I just lurk on this message board just to be up-to-date on what is
            happening out in the active historical community but this time your posting
            has me curious about something.
             
            Who's black soldiers were they?
             
            Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that either
            the U.S. Navy or Marines had them either. But the (U. S.) fugitive slave law
            was in operation in the 1850's and it was based upon an older law in the
            U.S. There were plenty of slave bounty hunters operating throughout the U.
            S. and I would not be all that surprised if they extended their operations
            into Canada. Theoritically, the incident could have happened---but with
            black soldiers?
             
            Just as a bit of trivia I will add that I  know that almost all black (white
            officers were still then assigned and white medical staff were assigned to
            the post hospitals) garrisons were at U. S. forts along the lower Great
            Lakes at one point early in the 1900's but that was long after the issue of
            slavery had been addressed by the 13th, 14th and 15th Admendments to the U.
            S. constitution.
             
            Richard Lytle
              

            --- On Fri, 1/2/09, whittakermp <whittakermp@...> wrote:

            From: whittakermp <whittakermp@...>

            I vaguely recall an incident of near mutiny at Fort George Pre-civil
            War when Black soldiers were forced to surrender an escaped slave they
            were harbouring. Ring any bells?

            Michael
          • Will Tatum
            Hi Kevin, A friend and I were on a day trip to Upper Canada this past July and could not find the Lundy s Lane museum. We found the monument to the battle in
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 2, 2009
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              Hi Kevin,
              A friend and I were on a day trip to Upper Canada this past July and
              could not find the Lundy's Lane museum. We found the monument to the battle
              in the Grave yard, though, which was pretty cool. I was hoping to meet you,
              though.


              Yr Svt,
              Will Tatum



              On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Kevin Windsor
              <kevin.windsor@...>wrote:

              > Happy new year all!
              >
              > What Michael is referring to if the Moseby Affair of 1837. Solomon Moseby
              > stole his master's horse and escaped to Niagara. The owner of the horse had
              > him arrested for theft and demanded his extradition back to Kentucky. The
              > Lieutenant Governor of Upper Canada returned Moseby because he was guilty
              > of
              > theft and not back into slavery. (though he was fully aware of what would
              > happen to Moseby)
              > The subsequent riot that occurred wasn't because of the Militia it was
              > because of the nearly 400 supporters that gathered around to stop the
              > extradition. In the end the soldiers (I can't remember if they were
              > regulars or militia) killed two people and Moseby escaped. He made his way
              > to England.
              >
              > As to bounty hunters not coming into Upper Canada, they did frequently.
              > There were warnings posted for blacks to be aware. Many of the Canadian
              > border towns had safe houses to hide escaped slaves from slave catchers.
              >
              > A trip to the Lundy's Lane Historical Museum will give you information on
              > slavery in Upper Canada and the history of the Black community in Niagara
              > since. Combine that with a trip to the Nathaniel Dett British Methodist
              > Episcopalian Church and you will have the whole experience!
              >
              > Kevin
              > 89th
              >
              > ________________________________________
              > From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
              > WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
              > Of richard lytle
              >
              > Michael,
              >
              > Normally I just lurk on this message board just to be up-to-date on what is
              > happening out in the active historical community but this time your posting
              > has me curious about something.
              >
              > Who's black soldiers were they?
              >
              > Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that either
              > the U.S. Navy or Marines had them either. But the (U. S.) fugitive slave
              > law
              > was in operation in the 1850's and it was based upon an older law in the
              > U.S. There were plenty of slave bounty hunters operating throughout the U.
              > S. and I would not be all that surprised if they extended their operations
              > into Canada. Theoritically, the incident could have happened---but with
              > black soldiers?
              >
              > Just as a bit of trivia I will add that I know that almost all black
              > (white
              > officers were still then assigned and white medical staff were assigned to
              > the post hospitals) garrisons were at U. S. forts along the lower Great
              > Lakes at one point early in the 1900's but that was long after the issue of
              > slavery had been addressed by the 13th, 14th and 15th Admendments to the U.
              > S. constitution.
              >
              > Richard Lytle
              >
              >
              > --- On Fri, 1/2/09, whittakermp <whittakermp@...<whittakermp%40yahoo.ca>>
              > wrote:
              >
              > From: whittakermp <whittakermp@... <whittakermp%40yahoo.ca>>
              >
              > I vaguely recall an incident of near mutiny at Fort George Pre-civil
              > War when Black soldiers were forced to surrender an escaped slave they
              > were harbouring. Ring any bells?
              >
              > Michael
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Kevin Windsor
              You were in the right area Will! At the top of the hill, across the street from the Monument is a white house. That is the Battle Ground Hotel Museum. At the
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 2, 2009
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                You were in the right area Will!

                At the top of the hill, across the street from the Monument is a white
                house. That is the Battle Ground Hotel Museum. At the bottom of the hill is
                a large stone building. That is the Lundy's Lane Museum. I look after
                both.



                KW



                _____

                From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of Will Tatum





                Hi Kevin,
                A friend and I were on a day trip to Upper Canada this past July and
                could not find the Lundy's Lane museum. We found the monument to the battle
                in the Grave yard, though, which was pretty cool. I was hoping to meet you,
                though.

                Yr Svt,
                Will Tatum






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Colin
                RL wrote: Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that either the U.S. Navy or Marines had them either. From what I recall I heard
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 5, 2009
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                  RL wrote:
                  "Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that
                  either the
                  U.S. Navy or Marines had them either."


                  From what I recall I heard that a large portion of the regiments
                  raised in 1813 and 14 were African Americans and soon after the war
                  there was a purge and African Americans did not return to the US Army
                  until 1862 as mentioned Perhaps someone can elaborate..

                  The US Navy also had plenty of African Americans... See LLs example
                  also I conference was held at the USS Constitution Museum a few years
                  back and a speaker gave a great talk on the African Americans in the
                  US Navy.


                  As to the Marine Corps the Jury is still out

                  They were not supposed to be there but we have found numerous
                  enlistees described as "dark complexion" "black hair" "black eyes" one
                  listed as a "planter" from Virginia

                  YHOS
                  Colin Murphy
                  USS CON 1812 MG
                  USMCHC
                • richard lytle
                  Colin,   In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct in that plenty of
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 6, 2009
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                    Colin,
                     
                    In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black and I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as sailors.
                     
                    The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815, and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up. The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44 regiments to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course, the Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those years but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the west coast, that was damn few troops.
                     
                    Richard Lytle

                    --- On Mon, 1/5/09, Colin <usmarine1814@...> wrote:

                    From: Colin <usmarine1814@...>
                    Subject: 1812 Re: Free Person’s of Colour now African Americans in US Forces
                    To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:17 AM






                    RL wrote:
                    "Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that
                    either the
                    U.S. Navy or Marines had them either."

                    From what I recall I heard that a large portion of the regiments
                    raised in 1813 and 14 were African Americans and soon after the war
                    there was a purge and African Americans did not return to the US Army
                    until 1862 as mentioned Perhaps someone can elaborate..

                    The US Navy also had plenty of African Americans... See LLs example
                    also I conference was held at the USS Constitution Museum a few years
                    back and a speaker gave a great talk on the African Americans in the
                    US Navy.

                    As to the Marine Corps the Jury is still out

                    They were not supposed to be there but we have found numerous
                    enlistees described as "dark complexion" "black hair" "black eyes" one
                    listed as a "planter" from Virginia

                    YHOS
                    Colin Murphy
                    USS CON 1812 MG
                    USMCHC


















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • James Yaworsky
                    ... [snip] ... restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815, and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up. The
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 6, 2009
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                      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@...> wrote:
                      [snip]
                      > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                      restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                      and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                      The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                      became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                      Infantry, etc, etc.

                      You've got me curious, Richard. What was the reason for the 1st
                      becoming the 3rd, the 2nd the 1st, the 6th the new 2nd, etc? To those
                      of us not in the know, it sounds rather like a pointless random
                      shuffle, or the results of a game of musical chairs!

                      Jim Yaworsky
                      41st
                    • richard lytle
                      Hello, James. Hope you are recovering from the holidays.   Right now I am in the process of researching and writing a book covering the use of U.S. Military
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 6, 2009
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                        Hello, James. Hope you are recovering from the holidays.
                         
                        Right now I am in the process of researching and writing a book covering the use of U.S. Military ground forces from between 1789 and 1815. One of the reasons that I am monitoring this listserv, bye the way. Anyway, the answer to your question is relatively simple if you consider the standard practice of that time. Typically, the original records of the late 1790s and early 1800s that I have seen numbered the regiments but the companies were designated by their commanding officers even though they were given numbers one through twelve within the regiment. Therefore,the reorganized regiments were re-numbered in 1815 "ACCORDING TO THE SENIORITY OF SERVICE OF THEIR COMMANDING OFFICERS."
                         
                        At least, that is the "official version" currently available in any known documents. Un-officially, there is the problem of most of the old First Infantry having been surrendered by Hull at Detroit in 1812 (and no one knows where the regimental colors went) and most of the old Second Infantry having been surrendered by Major (bvt. Lt. Col.) Lawrence which concluded the seige of Fort Bowyer located at Mobile Point in February, 1815. Those regimental colors went to England and are still in the possession of the War Museum in the old Chelsea Royal Hospital where I am told, very recently, the originals are in archival storage and replicas hang in the Great Hall in their place. Therefore, I believe that the plan to renumber as well as reorganize the regiments was concocted to erase those surrenders (even though they were not the fault of the men in those regiments) and restart the heritage from scratch. No proof, though!
                         
                        Richard lytle

                        --- On Tue, 1/6/09, James Yaworsky <yawors1@...> wrote:

                        From: James Yaworsky <yawors1@...>
                        Subject: 1812 1816 shakeup of US army
                        To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:26 PM






                        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com, richard lytle <richard6616@ ...> wrote:
                        [snip]
                        > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                        restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                        and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                        The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                        became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                        Infantry, etc, etc.

                        You've got me curious, Richard. What was the reason for the 1st
                        becoming the 3rd, the 2nd the 1st, the 6th the new 2nd, etc? To those
                        of us not in the know, it sounds rather like a pointless random
                        shuffle, or the results of a game of musical chairs!

                        Jim Yaworsky
                        41st


















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • James Yaworsky
                        ... Thanks, Richard. As I am partly of Ukrainian heritage, I am in fact preparing for our big Orthodox Xmas Eve family meal as I type this... the Holidays
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jan 6, 2009
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                          --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello, James. Hope you are recovering from the holidays.
                          >  

                          Thanks, Richard. As I am partly of Ukrainian heritage, I am in fact
                          preparing for our big Orthodox Xmas Eve family meal as I type this...
                          the Holidays just go on and on and on in this household! ;>)

                          [snip] Anyway, the answer to your question is relatively simple if you
                          consider the standard practice of that time. Typically, the original
                          records of the late 1790s and early 1800s that I have seen numbered
                          the regiments but the companies were designated by their commanding
                          officers even though they were given numbers one through twelve within
                          the regiment. Therefore,the reorganized regiments were re-numbered in
                          1815 "ACCORDING TO THE SENIORITY OF SERVICE OF THEIR COMMANDING
                          OFFICERS."

                          Thanks, Richard. That does indeed make perfect sense to a student of
                          the British army, especially when looking at its formative years in
                          the Marlborough era.

                          >  
                          > At least, that is the "official version" currently available in any
                          known documents. Un-officially, there is the problem of most of the
                          old First Infantry having been surrendered by Hull at Detroit in 1812
                          (and no one knows where the regimental colors went) and most of the
                          old Second Infantry having been surrendered by Major (bvt. Lt. Col.)
                          Lawrence which concluded the seige of Fort Bowyer located at Mobile
                          Point in February, 1815. Those regimental colors went to England and
                          are still in the possession of the War Museum in the old Chelsea Royal
                          Hospital where I am told, very recently, the originals are in archival
                          storage and replicas hang in the Great Hall in their place. Therefore,
                          I believe that the plan to renumber as well as reorganize the
                          regiments was concocted to erase those surrenders (even though they
                          were not the fault of the men in those regiments) and restart the
                          heritage from scratch. No proof, though!
                          >  
                          > Richard lytle

                          Richard, you might be interested to learn that the Welch Regiment'sl
                          Museum (formerly 41st) in Cardiff, Wales, has some "souvenirs"
                          collected by the 41st from the Detroit surrender in its collections.
                          Going by memory here, but I think they have the Regimental Color of
                          the U.S. 4th?

                          Jim Yaworsky
                          41st
                        • nappingcrow
                          Hi Richard, This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that in spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were African-
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jan 6, 2009
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                            Hi Richard,

                            This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that in
                            spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were African-
                            Americans serving in the regular US army during the War of 1812. I
                            can't speculate as to numbers, but I believe today even the US Army
                            states they served. (Sorry, it's late and I can't give you a proper
                            citation.)

                            The US National Archives notes the following:
                            "African Americans also served in the Regular Army, primarily in the
                            26th Infantry. The notation "(B)" appears following their names in
                            Appendix III for those whose physical description indicates black or
                            mulatto skin color. Persons whose skin was described simply as "dark"
                            are not indicated as "black" since they were probably "dark"
                            caucasians. "Blacks" and "mulattos" noted during records
                            arrangement... " and it goes on to list men in three different
                            regiments, including the 26th infantry.

                            LINK: http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/military/1812/discharge-
                            certificates.html

                            A number of years ago I ran across a list of 'denied' 1812 veteran
                            bounty applications which appeared to have been denied simply because
                            the applicants were black. The veterans were all from the 26th
                            infantry, and served under Captain William Bezeau (also written as
                            Begeau or Bezean in some other records) but like an idiot, I was
                            looking for something else at the time and so didn't take enough
                            notes - now of course I can't find the source.

                            I suspect the logic at the time went something like "black men
                            weren't elegible to serve, therefore didn't serve, so they are
                            lying", or more probably "weren't elegible to serve, therefore aren't
                            elegible for the land bounty granted to veterans".

                            I could try to run down the names of all the men known to have served
                            in his unit, and cross reference with bounty land applications, but I
                            have too many other projects going to take on another one at this
                            time... maybe in my retirement, if someone hasn't written a doctoral
                            thesis on it by then.

                            Regards,
                            Brian Smith


                            --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Colin,
                            >  
                            > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                            referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct
                            in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but
                            that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                            the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                            they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                            Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                            two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                            cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                            every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black and
                            I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as sailors.
                            >  
                            > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                            restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                            and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                            The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                            became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                            Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44 regiments
                            to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course, the
                            Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those years
                            but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the
                            west coast, that was damn few troops.
                            >
                            > Richard Lytle
                            >
                          • John Ogden
                            Interesting. I understand all too well about finding a tidbit of potential interest and not following up on it immediately because you were looking for
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jan 7, 2009
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                              Interesting. I understand all too well about finding a tidbit of potential
                              interest and not following up on it immediately because you were looking for
                              something else, then not being able to locate the randomly discovered item
                              later when you are free to follow up on it. If I had more free time to
                              devote to researching this, I would love to follow up on this. My wife is a
                              woman of color and, as a father and reenactor, I want our son to understand
                              that while African-Americans have usually been marginalized by
                              conventional/traditional historians, many did play pro-active and
                              significant roles in the formation of our Republic.

                              On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 11:24 PM, nappingcrow <nappingcrow@...> wrote:

                              > Hi Richard,
                              >
                              > This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that in
                              > spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were African-
                              > Americans serving in the regular US army during the War of 1812. I
                              > can't speculate as to numbers, but I believe today even the US Army
                              > states they served. (Sorry, it's late and I can't give you a proper
                              > citation.)
                              >
                              > The US National Archives notes the following:
                              > "African Americans also served in the Regular Army, primarily in the
                              > 26th Infantry. The notation "(B)" appears following their names in
                              > Appendix III for those whose physical description indicates black or
                              > mulatto skin color. Persons whose skin was described simply as "dark"
                              > are not indicated as "black" since they were probably "dark"
                              > caucasians. "Blacks" and "mulattos" noted during records
                              > arrangement... " and it goes on to list men in three different
                              > regiments, including the 26th infantry.
                              >
                              > LINK: http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/military/1812/discharge-
                              > certificates.html
                              >
                              > A number of years ago I ran across a list of 'denied' 1812 veteran
                              > bounty applications which appeared to have been denied simply because
                              > the applicants were black. The veterans were all from the 26th
                              > infantry, and served under Captain William Bezeau (also written as
                              > Begeau or Bezean in some other records) but like an idiot, I was
                              > looking for something else at the time and so didn't take enough
                              > notes - now of course I can't find the source.
                              >
                              > I suspect the logic at the time went something like "black men
                              > weren't elegible to serve, therefore didn't serve, so they are
                              > lying", or more probably "weren't elegible to serve, therefore aren't
                              > elegible for the land bounty granted to veterans".
                              >
                              > I could try to run down the names of all the men known to have served
                              > in his unit, and cross reference with bounty land applications, but I
                              > have too many other projects going to take on another one at this
                              > time... maybe in my retirement, if someone hasn't written a doctoral
                              > thesis on it by then.
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              > Brian Smith
                              >
                              > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>, richard
                              > lytle <richard6616@...>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Colin,
                              > >
                              > > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                              > referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct
                              > in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but
                              > that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                              > the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                              > they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                              > Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                              > two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                              > cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                              > every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black and
                              > I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as sailors.
                              > >
                              > > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                              > restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                              > and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                              > The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                              > became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                              > Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44 regiments
                              > to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course, the
                              > Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those years
                              > but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the
                              > west coast, that was damn few troops.
                              > >
                              > > Richard Lytle
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >



                              --
                              John J. Ogden

                              "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
                              in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
                              particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James
                              Madison, June 20, 1785

                              "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense,
                              founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of
                              enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and, as the
                              said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any
                              Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising
                              from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony
                              existing between the two countries." -- Article 11 of the Treaty of Peace
                              and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli
                              of Barbary, 3 Junad 1211 (Muslim calendar), 4 November 1796 C.E..


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • richard lytle
                              Dear Brian, John, Colin, et al,   I m sure that most everyone will agree that between, say, 1820 and 1862, black soldiers in U.S. army uniforms just didn t
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jan 7, 2009
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                                Dear Brian, John, Colin, et al,
                                 
                                I'm sure that most everyone will agree that between, say, 1820 and 1862, black soldiers in U.S. army uniforms just didn't exist---at least I have never seen or heard of any verifable source to contradict that statement. I agree with you that prior to 1815 there probably were some, especially during war time. Proving that there were some is the problem and if anyone knows where such proof may be found----PLEASE, I beg of you, tell me!!
                                 
                                Bye the bye, Captain William Bezeau (spelling per Heitman's Historical Register and Dictionary) was transferred to the 26th Infantry as a first lieutenant "officially" on 12 May 1814 and promoted to captain "officially" on 1 August 1814. He was not retained in the service after the War of 1812 ended but was honorably discharged with the date of 15 June 1815 (the last three months "probably" saw him carried on the War Department rolls as his severance pay).
                                 
                                I know that the continential lines of several middle states during the Revolutionary War contained a significant percentage of black soldiers, some free and some slave substitutes, and I know that there were several black citizens in Massachusetts who were listed in the 1790 cenus/land warrent rolls as veterans. Add them to the known service of blacks already mentioned and it becomes a distinct probability that some were in the ranks of land force regiments during the War of 1812 but so far the only way I have found to get any physical description of any soldier during those early years is to look through newspapers of the day and find advertisments of rewards for the return of deserters. Again, if anyone knows another source---please let me know.
                                 
                                Richard Lytle
                                 

                                --- On Wed, 1/7/09, John Ogden <johnjogden@...> wrote:

                                From: John Ogden <johnjogden@...>
                                Subject: Re: 1812 Re: African Americans in US Forces
                                To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 8:16 AM






                                Interesting. I understand all too well about finding a tidbit of potential
                                interest and not following up on it immediately because you were looking for
                                something else, then not being able to locate the randomly discovered item
                                later when you are free to follow up on it. If I had more free time to
                                devote to researching this, I would love to follow up on this. My wife is a
                                woman of color and, as a father and reenactor, I want our son to understand
                                that while African-Americans have usually been marginalized by
                                conventional/ traditional historians, many did play pro-active and
                                significant roles in the formation of our Republic.

                                On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 11:24 PM, nappingcrow <nappingcrow@ gmail.com> wrote:

                                > Hi Richard,
                                >
                                > This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that in
                                > spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were African-
                                > Americans serving in the regular US army during the War of 1812. I
                                > can't speculate as to numbers, but I believe today even the US Army
                                > states they served. (Sorry, it's late and I can't give you a proper
                                > citation.)
                                >
                                > The US National Archives notes the following:
                                > "African Americans also served in the Regular Army, primarily in the
                                > 26th Infantry. The notation "(B)" appears following their names in
                                > Appendix III for those whose physical description indicates black or
                                > mulatto skin color. Persons whose skin was described simply as "dark"
                                > are not indicated as "black" since they were probably "dark"
                                > caucasians. "Blacks" and "mulattos" noted during records
                                > arrangement. .. " and it goes on to list men in three different
                                > regiments, including the 26th infantry.
                                >
                                > LINK: http://www.archives .gov/genealogy/ military/ 1812/discharge-
                                > certificates. html
                                >
                                > A number of years ago I ran across a list of 'denied' 1812 veteran
                                > bounty applications which appeared to have been denied simply because
                                > the applicants were black. The veterans were all from the 26th
                                > infantry, and served under Captain William Bezeau (also written as
                                > Begeau or Bezean in some other records) but like an idiot, I was
                                > looking for something else at the time and so didn't take enough
                                > notes - now of course I can't find the source.
                                >
                                > I suspect the logic at the time went something like "black men
                                > weren't elegible to serve, therefore didn't serve, so they are
                                > lying", or more probably "weren't elegible to serve, therefore aren't
                                > elegible for the land bounty granted to veterans".
                                >
                                > I could try to run down the names of all the men known to have served
                                > in his unit, and cross reference with bounty land applications, but I
                                > have too many other projects going to take on another one at this
                                > time... maybe in my retirement, if someone hasn't written a doctoral
                                > thesis on it by then.
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                > Brian Smith
                                >
                                > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com <WarOf1812%40yahoog roups.com> , richard
                                > lytle <richard6616@ ...>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Colin,
                                > >
                                > > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                                > referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct
                                > in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but
                                > that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                                > the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                                > they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                                > Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                                > two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                                > cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                                > every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black and
                                > I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as sailors.
                                > >
                                > > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                                > restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                                > and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                                > The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                                > became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                                > Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44 regiments
                                > to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course, the
                                > Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those years
                                > but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the
                                > west coast, that was damn few troops.
                                > >
                                > > Richard Lytle
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                --
                                John J. Ogden

                                "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
                                in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
                                particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James
                                Madison, June 20, 1785

                                "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense,
                                founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of
                                enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and, as the
                                said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any
                                Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising
                                from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony
                                existing between the two countries." -- Article 11 of the Treaty of Peace
                                and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli
                                of Barbary, 3 Junad 1211 (Muslim calendar), 4 November 1796 C.E..

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Craig Williams
                                I m sorry if I am repeating someone else s post only because I m looking at this subject line for the first time, (time being at a premium) but as far as the
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jan 7, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I'm sorry if I am repeating someone else's post only because I'm
                                  looking at this subject line for the first time, (time being at a
                                  premium) but as far as the question of the Black serviceman/sailor in
                                  the US forces during the 1812 War, I have one suggestion for reference.
                                  Gerry Altoff wrote an excellent book on the African-American called
                                  "Amongst my best men".

                                  Again apologies if I have repeated earlier information.

                                  Craig Williams
                                • queenannsrevenge2002
                                  When I was a young Lieutenatnt in command of my very first platton (Reconnaissance)I had a corporal - James Freeman. The last name being derived from the fact
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jan 7, 2009
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                                    When I was a young Lieutenatnt in command of my very first platton
                                    (Reconnaissance)I had a corporal - James Freeman. The last name
                                    being derived from the fact that his ancestors were free blacks. He
                                    was very proud of the fact that he was a decendant of one of "The
                                    Free Men of Colour" who fought at the Battle of New Orelans. His
                                    passion and professionalism for this fact was reflected every day as
                                    a junior NCO. The down side - his family were also slave holders -
                                    a fact that did not sit well with most of the other young men of
                                    colour in his charge...

                                    Martin


                                    --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Colin,
                                    >  
                                    > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                                    referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct
                                    in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but
                                    that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                                    the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                                    they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                                    Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                                    two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                                    cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                                    every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black
                                    and I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as
                                    sailors.
                                    > Richard Lytle
                                  • Jim
                                    Just started reading a book called A Stranger and a Sojourner: Peter Caulder, Free Black Frontiersman in Antebellum Arkansas by Billy D. Higgins. The second
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jan 14, 2009
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                                      Just started reading a book called "A Stranger and a Sojourner: Peter
                                      Caulder, Free Black Frontiersman in Antebellum Arkansas" by Billy D.
                                      Higgins. The second chapter relates the story of how Peter, a
                                      mulatto, and five other African-American men from Marion County,
                                      South Carolina enlisted in the U.S. Third Rifle Regiment as pioneers
                                      in September 1814. After initial training in North Carolina, Peter
                                      served his time during the war in the area around Norfolk, Virginia.
                                      When the war ended he remained in the army for some time.

                                      I have only finished a small portion of the book covering the time
                                      just after the War of 1812 and so I am not sure how long Peter
                                      remained in the regiment. He was with the regiment at least until
                                      1819.

                                      Because of books like this one and Gerard T. Altoff's "Amongst my
                                      best men: African-Americans and The War of 1812" we are just starting
                                      to explore this very interesting subject.

                                      Regards,
                                      Jim Greathouse

                                      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "nappingcrow" <nappingcrow@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi Richard,
                                      >
                                      > This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that
                                      in
                                      > spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were
                                      African-
                                      > Americans serving in the regular US army during the War of 1812. I
                                      > can't speculate as to numbers, but I believe today even the US Army
                                      > states they served. (Sorry, it's late and I can't give you a
                                      proper
                                      > citation.)
                                      >
                                      > The US National Archives notes the following:
                                      > "African Americans also served in the Regular Army, primarily in
                                      the
                                      > 26th Infantry. The notation "(B)" appears following their names in
                                      > Appendix III for those whose physical description indicates black
                                      or
                                      > mulatto skin color. Persons whose skin was described simply
                                      as "dark"
                                      > are not indicated as "black" since they were probably "dark"
                                      > caucasians. "Blacks" and "mulattos" noted during records
                                      > arrangement... " and it goes on to list men in three different
                                      > regiments, including the 26th infantry.
                                      >
                                      > LINK: http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/military/1812/discharge-
                                      > certificates.html
                                      >
                                      > A number of years ago I ran across a list of 'denied' 1812 veteran
                                      > bounty applications which appeared to have been denied simply
                                      because
                                      > the applicants were black. The veterans were all from the 26th
                                      > infantry, and served under Captain William Bezeau (also written as
                                      > Begeau or Bezean in some other records) but like an idiot, I was
                                      > looking for something else at the time and so didn't take enough
                                      > notes - now of course I can't find the source.
                                      >
                                      > I suspect the logic at the time went something like "black men
                                      > weren't elegible to serve, therefore didn't serve, so they are
                                      > lying", or more probably "weren't elegible to serve, therefore
                                      aren't
                                      > elegible for the land bounty granted to veterans".
                                      >
                                      > I could try to run down the names of all the men known to have
                                      served
                                      > in his unit, and cross reference with bounty land applications, but
                                      I
                                      > have too many other projects going to take on another one at this
                                      > time... maybe in my retirement, if someone hasn't written a
                                      doctoral
                                      > thesis on it by then.
                                      >
                                      > Regards,
                                      > Brian Smith
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Colin,
                                      > >  
                                      > > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                                      > referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite
                                      correct
                                      > in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually
                                      but
                                      > that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                                      > the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                                      > they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                                      > Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                                      > two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                                      > cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                                      > every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black
                                      and
                                      > I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as
                                      sailors.
                                      > >  
                                      > > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                                      > restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15,
                                      1815,
                                      > and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                                      > The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                                      > became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                                      > Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44
                                      regiments
                                      > to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course,
                                      the
                                      > Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those
                                      years
                                      > but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the
                                      > west coast, that was damn few troops.
                                      > >
                                      > > Richard Lytle
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Colin
                                      Has anyone every come across enlistment papers with the complexion being brown ? As been stated dark may be a dark Euro-American but a brown Euro
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jan 14, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Has anyone every come across enlistment papers with the complexion
                                        being "brown"? As been stated dark may be a dark Euro-American but
                                        a "brown " Euro American????

                                        There is one Marine described
                                        eyes: Hazel
                                        hair: dark
                                        Complexion: Brown

                                        Born: Virginia
                                        Enlisted: New Orleans
                                        Previous occupation: Planter

                                        YHOS
                                        Colin Murphy
                                        USS CON 1812 MG
                                        USMCHC
                                      • peter monahan
                                        Richard Ran across this by accident today & thought it might be of interest, as it has a few pages on African Americans in the 1812 era US Army and Navy
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Jan 15, 2009
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                                          Richard

                                          Ran across this by accident today & thought it might be of interest, as
                                          it has a few pages on African Americans in the 1812 era US Army and Navy

                                          http://books.google.com/books?
                                          id=eWQFAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=sierra+leone+history#PPA287,M1

                                          History of the Negro Race in America from 1619 to 1880
                                          By George Washington Williams
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