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Free Person’s of Colour was Slavery in Upper Canada?

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  • Larry Lozon
    Travel to the West of the Province of Ontario and you will find the Town of Amherstburg located on the banks of the Detroit River which houses an excellent
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 31, 2008
      Travel to the West of the Province of Ontario and you will find the
      Town of Amherstburg located on the banks of the Detroit River which
      houses an excellent museum, The North American Black Historical
      Museum www.blackhistoricalmuseum.org

      Travel about fourty five miles east and you will find the Buxton
      Settlement settled entirely by those who traveled the underground
      railroad
      http://www.ontarioplaques.com/Plaques_ABC/Plaque_ChathamKent07.html

      If you then travel about twenty miles north you will find the town of
      Dresden and the Uncle Tom's Cabin Museum www.uncletomscabin.org

      Upper Canada (Ontario) had many slaves and free People of Colour
      during the War of 1812 and as has been posted, many Crown Regiments
      welcomed them both into the ranks.

      Records show the members of the 2nd Regiment of Essex Militia as
      being over eighty percent men of colour.

      I think that this thread has shown that there are many options for
      those of Colour besides Captain Runchey's Company of Coloured Men or
      the 104th New Brunswick Fencibles.

      On another note shall we think of the men who stood their post on
      this New Years Eve Night. They served from 1812 to 1816. Cold ...
      away from family ... but doing their duty ...

      I shall raise a glass to them and You on this start of a new year.

      Only a week to Jan 9-11 the Battle of New Orleans in Chalmette, LA.
      USA and then two weeks to Jan 24 the River Raisin Memorial in
      Monroe, MI. USA. The 2009 will have begun!

      Have you registerd for the Annual War Of 1812 Grand Tactical at
      Crysler's Farm near Morrisburg, ON. Canada on July 11-12 or ordered
      that piece of kit you need?


      Yrs.,
      L2



      "Ian Gardner" wrote:


      Tom,

      Next time you're down Niagara way, you'll find this plaque

      http://www.ontarioplaques.com/Plaques_MNO/Plaque_Niagara74.html
    • peter monahan
      One can also find, with only a little hunting, the cabin of the man on whom Uncle Tom of Uncle Tom s Cabin was based. The Queen s Bush , west of Shelburne
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 1, 2009
        One can also find, with only a little hunting, the cabin of the man
        on whom "Uncle Tom" of Uncle Tom's Cabin was based. "The Queen's
        Bush", west of Shelburne on the Bruce Peninsula, was an area settled
        by free blacks in the early to mid-nineteenth century and a frequent
        destination of escaped slaves from the US. Collingwood was the
        extreme northern terminus of the Underground Railway and I've been
        told that it employed a number of blacks in the shipyards. Some of
        them, it's said, worked,on Confederate commerce raiders which were
        built there. Ironic, no?

        As to the sale of "Canadian slaves" to the US, I should think it was
        regerded, while a scandal, much like the sale of livestock or
        the 'disciplining' of one's wife and children: a private matter
        generally of interest to no one but the participants. Sadly, many
        decent Canadians and Americans probably rgarded it that way too.

        I have met a black [Afro-Canadian person of colour] who told me that
        her ancestor, an escaped slave, originally settled in Holland Landing
        at the foot of Lake Simcoe but moved on into the bush around Willow
        Creek Depot because he feared being captured and returned south by
        slave hunters. I don't know the law here on it but certainly in the
        US it was a federal offence to interfere with the efforts of bounty
        hunters to return slaves to their rightful owners.
      • whittakermp
        I vaguely recall an incident of near mutiny at Fort George Pre-civil War when Black soldiers were forced to surrender an escaped slave they were harbouring.
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 2, 2009
          I vaguely recall an incident of near mutiny at Fort George Pre-civil
          War when Black soldiers were forced to surrender an escaped slave they
          were harbouring. Ring any bells?

          Michael
        • richard lytle
          Michael,   Normally I just lurk on this message board just to be up-to-date on what is happening out in the active historical community but this time your
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 2, 2009
            Michael,
             
            Normally I just lurk on this message board just to be up-to-date on what is happening out in the active historical community but this time your posting has me curious about something.
             
            Who's black soldiers were they?
             
            Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that either the U.S. Navy or Marines had them either. But the (U. S.) fugitive slave law was in operation in the 1850's and it was based upon an older law in the U.S. There were plenty of slave bounty hunters operating throughout the U. S. and I would not be all that surprised if they extended their operations into Canada. Theoritically, the incident could have happened---but with black soldiers?
             
            Just as a bit of trivia I will add that I  know that almost all black (white officers were still then assigned and white medical staff were assigned to the post hospitals) garrisons were at U. S. forts along the lower Great Lakes at one point early in the 1900's but that was long after the issue of slavery had been addressed by the 13th, 14th and 15th Admendments to the U. S. constitution.
             
            Richard Lytle
              

            --- On Fri, 1/2/09, whittakermp <whittakermp@...> wrote:

            From: whittakermp <whittakermp@...>
            Subject: 1812 Re: Free Person’s of Colour was Slavery in Upper Canada?
            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 11:46 AM






            I vaguely recall an incident of near mutiny at Fort George Pre-civil
            War when Black soldiers were forced to surrender an escaped slave they
            were harbouring. Ring any bells?

            Michael


















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Kevin Windsor
            Happy new year all! What Michael is referring to if the Moseby Affair of 1837. Solomon Moseby stole his master s horse and escaped to Niagara. The owner of
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 2, 2009
              Happy new year all!

              What Michael is referring to if the Moseby Affair of 1837. Solomon Moseby
              stole his master's horse and escaped to Niagara. The owner of the horse had
              him arrested for theft and demanded his extradition back to Kentucky. The
              Lieutenant Governor of Upper Canada returned Moseby because he was guilty of
              theft and not back into slavery. (though he was fully aware of what would
              happen to Moseby)
              The subsequent riot that occurred wasn't because of the Militia it was
              because of the nearly 400 supporters that gathered around to stop the
              extradition. In the end the soldiers (I can't remember if they were
              regulars or militia) killed two people and Moseby escaped. He made his way
              to England.

              As to bounty hunters not coming into Upper Canada, they did frequently.
              There were warnings posted for blacks to be aware. Many of the Canadian
              border towns had safe houses to hide escaped slaves from slave catchers.

              A trip to the Lundy's Lane Historical Museum will give you information on
              slavery in Upper Canada and the history of the Black community in Niagara
              since. Combine that with a trip to the Nathaniel Dett British Methodist
              Episcopalian Church and you will have the whole experience!

              Kevin
              89th



              ________________________________________
              From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of richard lytle


              Michael,
               
              Normally I just lurk on this message board just to be up-to-date on what is
              happening out in the active historical community but this time your posting
              has me curious about something.
               
              Who's black soldiers were they?
               
              Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that either
              the U.S. Navy or Marines had them either. But the (U. S.) fugitive slave law
              was in operation in the 1850's and it was based upon an older law in the
              U.S. There were plenty of slave bounty hunters operating throughout the U.
              S. and I would not be all that surprised if they extended their operations
              into Canada. Theoritically, the incident could have happened---but with
              black soldiers?
               
              Just as a bit of trivia I will add that I  know that almost all black (white
              officers were still then assigned and white medical staff were assigned to
              the post hospitals) garrisons were at U. S. forts along the lower Great
              Lakes at one point early in the 1900's but that was long after the issue of
              slavery had been addressed by the 13th, 14th and 15th Admendments to the U.
              S. constitution.
               
              Richard Lytle
                

              --- On Fri, 1/2/09, whittakermp <whittakermp@...> wrote:

              From: whittakermp <whittakermp@...>

              I vaguely recall an incident of near mutiny at Fort George Pre-civil
              War when Black soldiers were forced to surrender an escaped slave they
              were harbouring. Ring any bells?

              Michael
            • Will Tatum
              Hi Kevin, A friend and I were on a day trip to Upper Canada this past July and could not find the Lundy s Lane museum. We found the monument to the battle in
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 2, 2009
                Hi Kevin,
                A friend and I were on a day trip to Upper Canada this past July and
                could not find the Lundy's Lane museum. We found the monument to the battle
                in the Grave yard, though, which was pretty cool. I was hoping to meet you,
                though.


                Yr Svt,
                Will Tatum



                On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Kevin Windsor
                <kevin.windsor@...>wrote:

                > Happy new year all!
                >
                > What Michael is referring to if the Moseby Affair of 1837. Solomon Moseby
                > stole his master's horse and escaped to Niagara. The owner of the horse had
                > him arrested for theft and demanded his extradition back to Kentucky. The
                > Lieutenant Governor of Upper Canada returned Moseby because he was guilty
                > of
                > theft and not back into slavery. (though he was fully aware of what would
                > happen to Moseby)
                > The subsequent riot that occurred wasn't because of the Militia it was
                > because of the nearly 400 supporters that gathered around to stop the
                > extradition. In the end the soldiers (I can't remember if they were
                > regulars or militia) killed two people and Moseby escaped. He made his way
                > to England.
                >
                > As to bounty hunters not coming into Upper Canada, they did frequently.
                > There were warnings posted for blacks to be aware. Many of the Canadian
                > border towns had safe houses to hide escaped slaves from slave catchers.
                >
                > A trip to the Lundy's Lane Historical Museum will give you information on
                > slavery in Upper Canada and the history of the Black community in Niagara
                > since. Combine that with a trip to the Nathaniel Dett British Methodist
                > Episcopalian Church and you will have the whole experience!
                >
                > Kevin
                > 89th
                >
                > ________________________________________
                > From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                > WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
                > Of richard lytle
                >
                > Michael,
                >
                > Normally I just lurk on this message board just to be up-to-date on what is
                > happening out in the active historical community but this time your posting
                > has me curious about something.
                >
                > Who's black soldiers were they?
                >
                > Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that either
                > the U.S. Navy or Marines had them either. But the (U. S.) fugitive slave
                > law
                > was in operation in the 1850's and it was based upon an older law in the
                > U.S. There were plenty of slave bounty hunters operating throughout the U.
                > S. and I would not be all that surprised if they extended their operations
                > into Canada. Theoritically, the incident could have happened---but with
                > black soldiers?
                >
                > Just as a bit of trivia I will add that I know that almost all black
                > (white
                > officers were still then assigned and white medical staff were assigned to
                > the post hospitals) garrisons were at U. S. forts along the lower Great
                > Lakes at one point early in the 1900's but that was long after the issue of
                > slavery had been addressed by the 13th, 14th and 15th Admendments to the U.
                > S. constitution.
                >
                > Richard Lytle
                >
                >
                > --- On Fri, 1/2/09, whittakermp <whittakermp@...<whittakermp%40yahoo.ca>>
                > wrote:
                >
                > From: whittakermp <whittakermp@... <whittakermp%40yahoo.ca>>
                >
                > I vaguely recall an incident of near mutiny at Fort George Pre-civil
                > War when Black soldiers were forced to surrender an escaped slave they
                > were harbouring. Ring any bells?
                >
                > Michael
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kevin Windsor
                You were in the right area Will! At the top of the hill, across the street from the Monument is a white house. That is the Battle Ground Hotel Museum. At the
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 2, 2009
                  You were in the right area Will!

                  At the top of the hill, across the street from the Monument is a white
                  house. That is the Battle Ground Hotel Museum. At the bottom of the hill is
                  a large stone building. That is the Lundy's Lane Museum. I look after
                  both.



                  KW



                  _____

                  From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of Will Tatum





                  Hi Kevin,
                  A friend and I were on a day trip to Upper Canada this past July and
                  could not find the Lundy's Lane museum. We found the monument to the battle
                  in the Grave yard, though, which was pretty cool. I was hoping to meet you,
                  though.

                  Yr Svt,
                  Will Tatum






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Colin
                  RL wrote: Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that either the U.S. Navy or Marines had them either. From what I recall I heard
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 5, 2009
                    RL wrote:
                    "Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that
                    either the
                    U.S. Navy or Marines had them either."


                    From what I recall I heard that a large portion of the regiments
                    raised in 1813 and 14 were African Americans and soon after the war
                    there was a purge and African Americans did not return to the US Army
                    until 1862 as mentioned Perhaps someone can elaborate..

                    The US Navy also had plenty of African Americans... See LLs example
                    also I conference was held at the USS Constitution Museum a few years
                    back and a speaker gave a great talk on the African Americans in the
                    US Navy.


                    As to the Marine Corps the Jury is still out

                    They were not supposed to be there but we have found numerous
                    enlistees described as "dark complexion" "black hair" "black eyes" one
                    listed as a "planter" from Virginia

                    YHOS
                    Colin Murphy
                    USS CON 1812 MG
                    USMCHC
                  • richard lytle
                    Colin,   In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct in that plenty of
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 6, 2009
                      Colin,
                       
                      In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black and I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as sailors.
                       
                      The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815, and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up. The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44 regiments to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course, the Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those years but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the west coast, that was damn few troops.
                       
                      Richard Lytle

                      --- On Mon, 1/5/09, Colin <usmarine1814@...> wrote:

                      From: Colin <usmarine1814@...>
                      Subject: 1812 Re: Free Person’s of Colour now African Americans in US Forces
                      To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:17 AM






                      RL wrote:
                      "Not in the U.S. Army any time before 1862, surely, and I doubt that
                      either the
                      U.S. Navy or Marines had them either."

                      From what I recall I heard that a large portion of the regiments
                      raised in 1813 and 14 were African Americans and soon after the war
                      there was a purge and African Americans did not return to the US Army
                      until 1862 as mentioned Perhaps someone can elaborate..

                      The US Navy also had plenty of African Americans... See LLs example
                      also I conference was held at the USS Constitution Museum a few years
                      back and a speaker gave a great talk on the African Americans in the
                      US Navy.

                      As to the Marine Corps the Jury is still out

                      They were not supposed to be there but we have found numerous
                      enlistees described as "dark complexion" "black hair" "black eyes" one
                      listed as a "planter" from Virginia

                      YHOS
                      Colin Murphy
                      USS CON 1812 MG
                      USMCHC


















                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • James Yaworsky
                      ... [snip] ... restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815, and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up. The
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 6, 2009
                        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@...> wrote:
                        [snip]
                        > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                        restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                        and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                        The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                        became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                        Infantry, etc, etc.

                        You've got me curious, Richard. What was the reason for the 1st
                        becoming the 3rd, the 2nd the 1st, the 6th the new 2nd, etc? To those
                        of us not in the know, it sounds rather like a pointless random
                        shuffle, or the results of a game of musical chairs!

                        Jim Yaworsky
                        41st
                      • richard lytle
                        Hello, James. Hope you are recovering from the holidays.   Right now I am in the process of researching and writing a book covering the use of U.S. Military
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jan 6, 2009
                          Hello, James. Hope you are recovering from the holidays.
                           
                          Right now I am in the process of researching and writing a book covering the use of U.S. Military ground forces from between 1789 and 1815. One of the reasons that I am monitoring this listserv, bye the way. Anyway, the answer to your question is relatively simple if you consider the standard practice of that time. Typically, the original records of the late 1790s and early 1800s that I have seen numbered the regiments but the companies were designated by their commanding officers even though they were given numbers one through twelve within the regiment. Therefore,the reorganized regiments were re-numbered in 1815 "ACCORDING TO THE SENIORITY OF SERVICE OF THEIR COMMANDING OFFICERS."
                           
                          At least, that is the "official version" currently available in any known documents. Un-officially, there is the problem of most of the old First Infantry having been surrendered by Hull at Detroit in 1812 (and no one knows where the regimental colors went) and most of the old Second Infantry having been surrendered by Major (bvt. Lt. Col.) Lawrence which concluded the seige of Fort Bowyer located at Mobile Point in February, 1815. Those regimental colors went to England and are still in the possession of the War Museum in the old Chelsea Royal Hospital where I am told, very recently, the originals are in archival storage and replicas hang in the Great Hall in their place. Therefore, I believe that the plan to renumber as well as reorganize the regiments was concocted to erase those surrenders (even though they were not the fault of the men in those regiments) and restart the heritage from scratch. No proof, though!
                           
                          Richard lytle

                          --- On Tue, 1/6/09, James Yaworsky <yawors1@...> wrote:

                          From: James Yaworsky <yawors1@...>
                          Subject: 1812 1816 shakeup of US army
                          To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:26 PM






                          --- In WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com, richard lytle <richard6616@ ...> wrote:
                          [snip]
                          > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                          restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                          and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                          The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                          became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                          Infantry, etc, etc.

                          You've got me curious, Richard. What was the reason for the 1st
                          becoming the 3rd, the 2nd the 1st, the 6th the new 2nd, etc? To those
                          of us not in the know, it sounds rather like a pointless random
                          shuffle, or the results of a game of musical chairs!

                          Jim Yaworsky
                          41st


















                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • James Yaworsky
                          ... Thanks, Richard. As I am partly of Ukrainian heritage, I am in fact preparing for our big Orthodox Xmas Eve family meal as I type this... the Holidays
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jan 6, 2009
                            --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello, James. Hope you are recovering from the holidays.
                            >  

                            Thanks, Richard. As I am partly of Ukrainian heritage, I am in fact
                            preparing for our big Orthodox Xmas Eve family meal as I type this...
                            the Holidays just go on and on and on in this household! ;>)

                            [snip] Anyway, the answer to your question is relatively simple if you
                            consider the standard practice of that time. Typically, the original
                            records of the late 1790s and early 1800s that I have seen numbered
                            the regiments but the companies were designated by their commanding
                            officers even though they were given numbers one through twelve within
                            the regiment. Therefore,the reorganized regiments were re-numbered in
                            1815 "ACCORDING TO THE SENIORITY OF SERVICE OF THEIR COMMANDING
                            OFFICERS."

                            Thanks, Richard. That does indeed make perfect sense to a student of
                            the British army, especially when looking at its formative years in
                            the Marlborough era.

                            >  
                            > At least, that is the "official version" currently available in any
                            known documents. Un-officially, there is the problem of most of the
                            old First Infantry having been surrendered by Hull at Detroit in 1812
                            (and no one knows where the regimental colors went) and most of the
                            old Second Infantry having been surrendered by Major (bvt. Lt. Col.)
                            Lawrence which concluded the seige of Fort Bowyer located at Mobile
                            Point in February, 1815. Those regimental colors went to England and
                            are still in the possession of the War Museum in the old Chelsea Royal
                            Hospital where I am told, very recently, the originals are in archival
                            storage and replicas hang in the Great Hall in their place. Therefore,
                            I believe that the plan to renumber as well as reorganize the
                            regiments was concocted to erase those surrenders (even though they
                            were not the fault of the men in those regiments) and restart the
                            heritage from scratch. No proof, though!
                            >  
                            > Richard lytle

                            Richard, you might be interested to learn that the Welch Regiment'sl
                            Museum (formerly 41st) in Cardiff, Wales, has some "souvenirs"
                            collected by the 41st from the Detroit surrender in its collections.
                            Going by memory here, but I think they have the Regimental Color of
                            the U.S. 4th?

                            Jim Yaworsky
                            41st
                          • nappingcrow
                            Hi Richard, This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that in spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were African-
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jan 6, 2009
                              Hi Richard,

                              This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that in
                              spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were African-
                              Americans serving in the regular US army during the War of 1812. I
                              can't speculate as to numbers, but I believe today even the US Army
                              states they served. (Sorry, it's late and I can't give you a proper
                              citation.)

                              The US National Archives notes the following:
                              "African Americans also served in the Regular Army, primarily in the
                              26th Infantry. The notation "(B)" appears following their names in
                              Appendix III for those whose physical description indicates black or
                              mulatto skin color. Persons whose skin was described simply as "dark"
                              are not indicated as "black" since they were probably "dark"
                              caucasians. "Blacks" and "mulattos" noted during records
                              arrangement... " and it goes on to list men in three different
                              regiments, including the 26th infantry.

                              LINK: http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/military/1812/discharge-
                              certificates.html

                              A number of years ago I ran across a list of 'denied' 1812 veteran
                              bounty applications which appeared to have been denied simply because
                              the applicants were black. The veterans were all from the 26th
                              infantry, and served under Captain William Bezeau (also written as
                              Begeau or Bezean in some other records) but like an idiot, I was
                              looking for something else at the time and so didn't take enough
                              notes - now of course I can't find the source.

                              I suspect the logic at the time went something like "black men
                              weren't elegible to serve, therefore didn't serve, so they are
                              lying", or more probably "weren't elegible to serve, therefore aren't
                              elegible for the land bounty granted to veterans".

                              I could try to run down the names of all the men known to have served
                              in his unit, and cross reference with bounty land applications, but I
                              have too many other projects going to take on another one at this
                              time... maybe in my retirement, if someone hasn't written a doctoral
                              thesis on it by then.

                              Regards,
                              Brian Smith


                              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Colin,
                              >  
                              > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                              referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct
                              in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but
                              that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                              the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                              they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                              Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                              two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                              cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                              every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black and
                              I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as sailors.
                              >  
                              > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                              restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                              and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                              The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                              became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                              Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44 regiments
                              to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course, the
                              Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those years
                              but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the
                              west coast, that was damn few troops.
                              >
                              > Richard Lytle
                              >
                            • John Ogden
                              Interesting. I understand all too well about finding a tidbit of potential interest and not following up on it immediately because you were looking for
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jan 7, 2009
                                Interesting. I understand all too well about finding a tidbit of potential
                                interest and not following up on it immediately because you were looking for
                                something else, then not being able to locate the randomly discovered item
                                later when you are free to follow up on it. If I had more free time to
                                devote to researching this, I would love to follow up on this. My wife is a
                                woman of color and, as a father and reenactor, I want our son to understand
                                that while African-Americans have usually been marginalized by
                                conventional/traditional historians, many did play pro-active and
                                significant roles in the formation of our Republic.

                                On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 11:24 PM, nappingcrow <nappingcrow@...> wrote:

                                > Hi Richard,
                                >
                                > This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that in
                                > spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were African-
                                > Americans serving in the regular US army during the War of 1812. I
                                > can't speculate as to numbers, but I believe today even the US Army
                                > states they served. (Sorry, it's late and I can't give you a proper
                                > citation.)
                                >
                                > The US National Archives notes the following:
                                > "African Americans also served in the Regular Army, primarily in the
                                > 26th Infantry. The notation "(B)" appears following their names in
                                > Appendix III for those whose physical description indicates black or
                                > mulatto skin color. Persons whose skin was described simply as "dark"
                                > are not indicated as "black" since they were probably "dark"
                                > caucasians. "Blacks" and "mulattos" noted during records
                                > arrangement... " and it goes on to list men in three different
                                > regiments, including the 26th infantry.
                                >
                                > LINK: http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/military/1812/discharge-
                                > certificates.html
                                >
                                > A number of years ago I ran across a list of 'denied' 1812 veteran
                                > bounty applications which appeared to have been denied simply because
                                > the applicants were black. The veterans were all from the 26th
                                > infantry, and served under Captain William Bezeau (also written as
                                > Begeau or Bezean in some other records) but like an idiot, I was
                                > looking for something else at the time and so didn't take enough
                                > notes - now of course I can't find the source.
                                >
                                > I suspect the logic at the time went something like "black men
                                > weren't elegible to serve, therefore didn't serve, so they are
                                > lying", or more probably "weren't elegible to serve, therefore aren't
                                > elegible for the land bounty granted to veterans".
                                >
                                > I could try to run down the names of all the men known to have served
                                > in his unit, and cross reference with bounty land applications, but I
                                > have too many other projects going to take on another one at this
                                > time... maybe in my retirement, if someone hasn't written a doctoral
                                > thesis on it by then.
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                > Brian Smith
                                >
                                > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>, richard
                                > lytle <richard6616@...>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Colin,
                                > >
                                > > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                                > referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct
                                > in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but
                                > that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                                > the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                                > they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                                > Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                                > two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                                > cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                                > every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black and
                                > I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as sailors.
                                > >
                                > > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                                > restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                                > and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                                > The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                                > became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                                > Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44 regiments
                                > to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course, the
                                > Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those years
                                > but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the
                                > west coast, that was damn few troops.
                                > >
                                > > Richard Lytle
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >



                                --
                                John J. Ogden

                                "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
                                in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
                                particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James
                                Madison, June 20, 1785

                                "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense,
                                founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of
                                enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and, as the
                                said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any
                                Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising
                                from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony
                                existing between the two countries." -- Article 11 of the Treaty of Peace
                                and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli
                                of Barbary, 3 Junad 1211 (Muslim calendar), 4 November 1796 C.E..


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • richard lytle
                                Dear Brian, John, Colin, et al,   I m sure that most everyone will agree that between, say, 1820 and 1862, black soldiers in U.S. army uniforms just didn t
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jan 7, 2009
                                  Dear Brian, John, Colin, et al,
                                   
                                  I'm sure that most everyone will agree that between, say, 1820 and 1862, black soldiers in U.S. army uniforms just didn't exist---at least I have never seen or heard of any verifable source to contradict that statement. I agree with you that prior to 1815 there probably were some, especially during war time. Proving that there were some is the problem and if anyone knows where such proof may be found----PLEASE, I beg of you, tell me!!
                                   
                                  Bye the bye, Captain William Bezeau (spelling per Heitman's Historical Register and Dictionary) was transferred to the 26th Infantry as a first lieutenant "officially" on 12 May 1814 and promoted to captain "officially" on 1 August 1814. He was not retained in the service after the War of 1812 ended but was honorably discharged with the date of 15 June 1815 (the last three months "probably" saw him carried on the War Department rolls as his severance pay).
                                   
                                  I know that the continential lines of several middle states during the Revolutionary War contained a significant percentage of black soldiers, some free and some slave substitutes, and I know that there were several black citizens in Massachusetts who were listed in the 1790 cenus/land warrent rolls as veterans. Add them to the known service of blacks already mentioned and it becomes a distinct probability that some were in the ranks of land force regiments during the War of 1812 but so far the only way I have found to get any physical description of any soldier during those early years is to look through newspapers of the day and find advertisments of rewards for the return of deserters. Again, if anyone knows another source---please let me know.
                                   
                                  Richard Lytle
                                   

                                  --- On Wed, 1/7/09, John Ogden <johnjogden@...> wrote:

                                  From: John Ogden <johnjogden@...>
                                  Subject: Re: 1812 Re: African Americans in US Forces
                                  To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 8:16 AM






                                  Interesting. I understand all too well about finding a tidbit of potential
                                  interest and not following up on it immediately because you were looking for
                                  something else, then not being able to locate the randomly discovered item
                                  later when you are free to follow up on it. If I had more free time to
                                  devote to researching this, I would love to follow up on this. My wife is a
                                  woman of color and, as a father and reenactor, I want our son to understand
                                  that while African-Americans have usually been marginalized by
                                  conventional/ traditional historians, many did play pro-active and
                                  significant roles in the formation of our Republic.

                                  On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 11:24 PM, nappingcrow <nappingcrow@ gmail.com> wrote:

                                  > Hi Richard,
                                  >
                                  > This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that in
                                  > spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were African-
                                  > Americans serving in the regular US army during the War of 1812. I
                                  > can't speculate as to numbers, but I believe today even the US Army
                                  > states they served. (Sorry, it's late and I can't give you a proper
                                  > citation.)
                                  >
                                  > The US National Archives notes the following:
                                  > "African Americans also served in the Regular Army, primarily in the
                                  > 26th Infantry. The notation "(B)" appears following their names in
                                  > Appendix III for those whose physical description indicates black or
                                  > mulatto skin color. Persons whose skin was described simply as "dark"
                                  > are not indicated as "black" since they were probably "dark"
                                  > caucasians. "Blacks" and "mulattos" noted during records
                                  > arrangement. .. " and it goes on to list men in three different
                                  > regiments, including the 26th infantry.
                                  >
                                  > LINK: http://www.archives .gov/genealogy/ military/ 1812/discharge-
                                  > certificates. html
                                  >
                                  > A number of years ago I ran across a list of 'denied' 1812 veteran
                                  > bounty applications which appeared to have been denied simply because
                                  > the applicants were black. The veterans were all from the 26th
                                  > infantry, and served under Captain William Bezeau (also written as
                                  > Begeau or Bezean in some other records) but like an idiot, I was
                                  > looking for something else at the time and so didn't take enough
                                  > notes - now of course I can't find the source.
                                  >
                                  > I suspect the logic at the time went something like "black men
                                  > weren't elegible to serve, therefore didn't serve, so they are
                                  > lying", or more probably "weren't elegible to serve, therefore aren't
                                  > elegible for the land bounty granted to veterans".
                                  >
                                  > I could try to run down the names of all the men known to have served
                                  > in his unit, and cross reference with bounty land applications, but I
                                  > have too many other projects going to take on another one at this
                                  > time... maybe in my retirement, if someone hasn't written a doctoral
                                  > thesis on it by then.
                                  >
                                  > Regards,
                                  > Brian Smith
                                  >
                                  > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com <WarOf1812%40yahoog roups.com> , richard
                                  > lytle <richard6616@ ...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Colin,
                                  > >
                                  > > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                                  > referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct
                                  > in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but
                                  > that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                                  > the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                                  > they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                                  > Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                                  > two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                                  > cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                                  > every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black and
                                  > I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as sailors.
                                  > >
                                  > > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                                  > restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15, 1815,
                                  > and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                                  > The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                                  > became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                                  > Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44 regiments
                                  > to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course, the
                                  > Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those years
                                  > but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the
                                  > west coast, that was damn few troops.
                                  > >
                                  > > Richard Lytle
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  --
                                  John J. Ogden

                                  "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
                                  in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
                                  particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James
                                  Madison, June 20, 1785

                                  "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense,
                                  founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of
                                  enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and, as the
                                  said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any
                                  Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising
                                  from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony
                                  existing between the two countries." -- Article 11 of the Treaty of Peace
                                  and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli
                                  of Barbary, 3 Junad 1211 (Muslim calendar), 4 November 1796 C.E..

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Craig Williams
                                  I m sorry if I am repeating someone else s post only because I m looking at this subject line for the first time, (time being at a premium) but as far as the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jan 7, 2009
                                    I'm sorry if I am repeating someone else's post only because I'm
                                    looking at this subject line for the first time, (time being at a
                                    premium) but as far as the question of the Black serviceman/sailor in
                                    the US forces during the 1812 War, I have one suggestion for reference.
                                    Gerry Altoff wrote an excellent book on the African-American called
                                    "Amongst my best men".

                                    Again apologies if I have repeated earlier information.

                                    Craig Williams
                                  • queenannsrevenge2002
                                    When I was a young Lieutenatnt in command of my very first platton (Reconnaissance)I had a corporal - James Freeman. The last name being derived from the fact
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jan 7, 2009
                                      When I was a young Lieutenatnt in command of my very first platton
                                      (Reconnaissance)I had a corporal - James Freeman. The last name
                                      being derived from the fact that his ancestors were free blacks. He
                                      was very proud of the fact that he was a decendant of one of "The
                                      Free Men of Colour" who fought at the Battle of New Orelans. His
                                      passion and professionalism for this fact was reflected every day as
                                      a junior NCO. The down side - his family were also slave holders -
                                      a fact that did not sit well with most of the other young men of
                                      colour in his charge...

                                      Martin


                                      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Colin,
                                      >  
                                      > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                                      referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite correct
                                      in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually but
                                      that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                                      the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                                      they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                                      Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                                      two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                                      cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                                      every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black
                                      and I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as
                                      sailors.
                                      > Richard Lytle
                                    • Jim
                                      Just started reading a book called A Stranger and a Sojourner: Peter Caulder, Free Black Frontiersman in Antebellum Arkansas by Billy D. Higgins. The second
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jan 14, 2009
                                        Just started reading a book called "A Stranger and a Sojourner: Peter
                                        Caulder, Free Black Frontiersman in Antebellum Arkansas" by Billy D.
                                        Higgins. The second chapter relates the story of how Peter, a
                                        mulatto, and five other African-American men from Marion County,
                                        South Carolina enlisted in the U.S. Third Rifle Regiment as pioneers
                                        in September 1814. After initial training in North Carolina, Peter
                                        served his time during the war in the area around Norfolk, Virginia.
                                        When the war ended he remained in the army for some time.

                                        I have only finished a small portion of the book covering the time
                                        just after the War of 1812 and so I am not sure how long Peter
                                        remained in the regiment. He was with the regiment at least until
                                        1819.

                                        Because of books like this one and Gerard T. Altoff's "Amongst my
                                        best men: African-Americans and The War of 1812" we are just starting
                                        to explore this very interesting subject.

                                        Regards,
                                        Jim Greathouse

                                        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "nappingcrow" <nappingcrow@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hi Richard,
                                        >
                                        > This has become something of an interest of mine. I believe that
                                        in
                                        > spite of the regulations forbidding their service, there were
                                        African-
                                        > Americans serving in the regular US army during the War of 1812. I
                                        > can't speculate as to numbers, but I believe today even the US Army
                                        > states they served. (Sorry, it's late and I can't give you a
                                        proper
                                        > citation.)
                                        >
                                        > The US National Archives notes the following:
                                        > "African Americans also served in the Regular Army, primarily in
                                        the
                                        > 26th Infantry. The notation "(B)" appears following their names in
                                        > Appendix III for those whose physical description indicates black
                                        or
                                        > mulatto skin color. Persons whose skin was described simply
                                        as "dark"
                                        > are not indicated as "black" since they were probably "dark"
                                        > caucasians. "Blacks" and "mulattos" noted during records
                                        > arrangement... " and it goes on to list men in three different
                                        > regiments, including the 26th infantry.
                                        >
                                        > LINK: http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/military/1812/discharge-
                                        > certificates.html
                                        >
                                        > A number of years ago I ran across a list of 'denied' 1812 veteran
                                        > bounty applications which appeared to have been denied simply
                                        because
                                        > the applicants were black. The veterans were all from the 26th
                                        > infantry, and served under Captain William Bezeau (also written as
                                        > Begeau or Bezean in some other records) but like an idiot, I was
                                        > looking for something else at the time and so didn't take enough
                                        > notes - now of course I can't find the source.
                                        >
                                        > I suspect the logic at the time went something like "black men
                                        > weren't elegible to serve, therefore didn't serve, so they are
                                        > lying", or more probably "weren't elegible to serve, therefore
                                        aren't
                                        > elegible for the land bounty granted to veterans".
                                        >
                                        > I could try to run down the names of all the men known to have
                                        served
                                        > in his unit, and cross reference with bounty land applications, but
                                        I
                                        > have too many other projects going to take on another one at this
                                        > time... maybe in my retirement, if someone hasn't written a
                                        doctoral
                                        > thesis on it by then.
                                        >
                                        > Regards,
                                        > Brian Smith
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, richard lytle <richard6616@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Colin,
                                        > >  
                                        > > In speaking of the service of blacks in the U.S. Army, I was
                                        > referring to the Regulars and not the militia. You are quite
                                        correct
                                        > in that plenty of black americans (free persons of color usually
                                        but
                                        > that might have included black slaves as substitutes) served during
                                        > the War of 1812. Practically all of them were in militia units and
                                        > they might have been "federalized" at one point or another. The
                                        > Louisina militia had at least one free colored battalion, maybe
                                        > two, at New Orleans and they, being the most noted, are easy to
                                        > cite but there were others. I have read that as many as one out of
                                        > every six men manning the U.S. fleet on the Great Lakes was black
                                        and
                                        > I suspect that quite a few were employed by the U.S. Navy as
                                        sailors.
                                        > >  
                                        > > The "purge" you mentioned was yet another reorganizing and
                                        > restructuring of the Army that was conducted effective May 15,
                                        1815,
                                        > and the entire U.S. land forces went through a complete shaking up.
                                        > The First Infantry became the Third Infantry, the Second Infantry
                                        > became the First Infantry, the Sixth Infantry became the new Second
                                        > Infantry, etc, etc. The whole force was scaled down from 44
                                        regiments
                                        > to only 8 and it stayed at eight regiments until 1855. Of course,
                                        the
                                        > Artillery and the horse mounted troops were added furing those
                                        years
                                        > but, considering the growth in population and the expansion to the
                                        > west coast, that was damn few troops.
                                        > >
                                        > > Richard Lytle
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Colin
                                        Has anyone every come across enlistment papers with the complexion being brown ? As been stated dark may be a dark Euro-American but a brown Euro
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Jan 14, 2009
                                          Has anyone every come across enlistment papers with the complexion
                                          being "brown"? As been stated dark may be a dark Euro-American but
                                          a "brown " Euro American????

                                          There is one Marine described
                                          eyes: Hazel
                                          hair: dark
                                          Complexion: Brown

                                          Born: Virginia
                                          Enlisted: New Orleans
                                          Previous occupation: Planter

                                          YHOS
                                          Colin Murphy
                                          USS CON 1812 MG
                                          USMCHC
                                        • peter monahan
                                          Richard Ran across this by accident today & thought it might be of interest, as it has a few pages on African Americans in the 1812 era US Army and Navy
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Jan 15, 2009
                                            Richard

                                            Ran across this by accident today & thought it might be of interest, as
                                            it has a few pages on African Americans in the 1812 era US Army and Navy

                                            http://books.google.com/books?
                                            id=eWQFAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=sierra+leone+history#PPA287,M1

                                            History of the Negro Race in America from 1619 to 1880
                                            By George Washington Williams
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