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Canteens

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  • Larry Lozon
    A question from another Yahoo Group Why were Crown Forces canteens made of wood during The War of 1812?
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 29, 2008
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      A question from another Yahoo Group



      "Why were Crown Forces canteens made of wood during The War of 1812?"
    • Harry Pilotto
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 29, 2008
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        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Lozon" <larrylozon@...> wrote:
        >
        > A question from another Yahoo Group
        >
        >
        >
        > "Why were Crown Forces canteens made of wood during The War of 1812?"
        >
      • Len Heidebrecht
        Hello All, US forces were using wooden canteens as well by the war but there is still some debate as to whether the cheese box style was actually issued
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 30, 2008
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          Hello All,

          US forces were using wooden canteens as well by the war but there is
          still some debate as to whether the 'cheese box' style was actually
          issued during that time. One such in Don Trioni's collection is dated
          1776 but this might have been added much later.

          By 1780 British forces in America were discussing issuing wooden
          canteens to their troops much as the American units had been doing in
          some forms as early as the F&I War and there are 17C german wood-cuts
          (which I can't lay may hands on at the moment)showing soldiers
          drinking out of large camp-style canteens. The Guards battalions
          during the Rev War had been issued them and the rest of the army in
          America seem to follow suit, I cannot find references as yet to
          wooden canteens being used by British and Loyalist units in Canada
          and the Atlantic colonies.

          The extant late 18C examples are fairly similar in that they all
          contain about 1 wine quart of liquid (aprox 1 liter)and are made of
          staves of various widths by coopers. By the 1790s the canteens are
          being mass produced, likely partially by machine, so that the number
          of staves become uniform as does the container for the next 60 or so
          years. After about 1872 another wooden canteen replaces this style
          with a cloth covered metal one about ten or so years later. According
          to LCol George Taylor Denison III, Canadian Militia were issued the
          round wooden canteens (dated to the 1850s)during the Fenian raids in
          1866 and for the Northwest Rebellion of 1885.

          Now as to why they were using wood we should remember that as
          European peoples we have been using staved wooden containers for over
          two thousand years by 1812 and so have a pretty good familiarity with
          how to clean and maintain casks and containers, unlike today. Tin
          canteens as seen during F&I and early Rev War are a bit more
          expensive, need to be repaired by solder, rust quickly and damage
          easily. Of all the reasons for the change of style, the expense of
          production and maintenance was likely most important.

          Cheers,

          Len
          (who just happens to have a few of these in stock, painted and
          branded or plain.)

          -- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Lozon" <larrylozon@...> wrote:
          >
          > A question from another Yahoo Group
          >
          >
          >
          > "Why were Crown Forces canteens made of wood during The War of
          1812?"
          >
        • Harry Pilotto
          Oops! Electronic clutz failed to send text of message, sorry. See Pierre Turner s SOLDIERS ACCOUTREMENTS OF THE BRITISH ARMY 1750- 1900, pages 10, 11 and 13.
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 31, 2008
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            Oops! Electronic clutz failed to send text of message, sorry.

            See Pierre Turner's SOLDIERS ACCOUTREMENTS OF THE BRITISH ARMY 1750-
            1900, pages 10, 11 and 13. He notes earlist picture of this model is
            1794. They were used until 1874. Also google.books.com has a scanned
            copy of THE CIRCLE OF THE MECHANICAL ARTS by Thomas Martin, London
            1813. Pages 236-238 describe manufactoring techniques and demensions.
            Harry
            42d RHR
            --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Pilotto" <hpilotto42@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Lozon" <larrylozon@> wrote:
            > >
            > > A question from another Yahoo Group
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > "Why were Crown Forces canteens made of wood during The War of
            1812?"
            > >
            >
          • Larry Lozon
            As I do not have Pierre Turner s SOLDIERS ACCOUTREMENTS OF THE BRITISH ARMY 1750- 1900, and the question Why were Crown Forces canteens made of wood during
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 31, 2008
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              As I do not have Pierre Turner's
              SOLDIERS ACCOUTREMENTS OF THE BRITISH ARMY 1750- 1900,
              and the question "Why were Crown Forces canteens made of wood during
              The War of 1812?" was not answered

              I have consulted
              OSPREY MEN-AT-ARMS SERIES 107
              British Infantry Equipment 1808-1908
              Mike Chappell ISBN 0 85045 374 7

              It cites the wooden or "ITALIAN" canteen as being issued because the
              metal flasks (Rev War 1776) were prone to rust and glass was too
              fragile. The wooden or "ITALIAN" canteen was used until the 1870's.
              …………….

              Weapons & Equipment
              Of the NAPOLEONIC WARS
              Philip J. Haythornshwaite ISBN 1 85409 495 5

              Does not tell why the canteen was made from wood but shows all the
              canteens used during the Napoleonic Wars both regulation and non-
              regulation.


              So from this I come to the conclusion that wood lasted longer even if
              it leaked and the users were not happy with it


              --- "Harry Pilotto" wrote:

              ". . . See Pierre Turner's SOLDIERS ACCOUTREMENTS OF THE BRITISH ARMY
              1750-1900, pages 10, 11 and 13. He notes earlist picture of this
              model is 1794. They were used until 1874. Also google.books.com has
              a scanned copy of THE CIRCLE OF THE MECHANICAL ARTS by Thomas
              Martin, London 1813. Pages 236-238 describe manufactoring techniques
              and demensions.
            • JGIL1812@aol.com
              In a message dated 10/31/2008 5:34:24 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, larrylozon@yahoo.ca writes: As I do not have Pierre Turner s SOLDIERS ACCOUTREMENTS OF THE
              Message 6 of 8 , Oct 31, 2008
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                In a message dated 10/31/2008 5:34:24 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                larrylozon@... writes:

                As I do not have Pierre Turner's
                SOLDIERS ACCOUTREMENTS OF THE BRITISH ARMY 1750- 1900,
                and the question "Why were Crown Forces canteens made of wood during
                The War of 1812?" was not answered



                Mr Lozon,

                I do have a copy of Turner's book and he states on page 10 that during the
                AWI: "American troops generally used a wooden barrel type canteen and it is
                credible that these influenced a similar type in the British Army" I also have
                a copy of the Osprey book you quote. I am not sure of the "Italian"
                connection but tend to agree with the assumption that wood both wasted longer and
                were easier to care for than tin or covered glass.

                Your humble servant,

                JG/RE
                **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kevin Windsor
                Actually Len did a great job of answering that question! Perhaps you didn t read it? Kevin _____ From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 1, 2008
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                  Actually Len did a great job of answering that question! Perhaps you didn't
                  read it?



                  Kevin



                  _____

                  From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of Larry Lozon

                  and the question "Why were Crown Forces canteens made of wood during
                  The War of 1812?" was not answered






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Andrew Bateman
                  I have both books and I ve noticed a disagreement between them. In the Osprey book, the early 19th century canteen is called the Italian canteen and the
                  Message 8 of 8 , Nov 2, 2008
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                    I have both books and I've noticed a disagreement between them. In the
                    Osprey book, the early 19th century canteen is called the "Italian
                    canteen" and the pattern adopted "in 1875" is called the "Oliver". No
                    explanation for the names is given. In SOLDIERS ACCOUTREMENTS OF THE
                    BRITISH ARMY 1750- 1900, the early 19th century canteen is the "Water
                    Bottle, Wood, General Service" and the one that the Osprey book
                    identifies as the "Oliver" is called the "Water Bottle, Italian, 1874".
                    Apparently it was a copy of the Italian army canteen of the period and
                    was so noted in the "List of Changes" for that year. So I'd suggest that
                    as reenactors we shouldn't be using the term "Italian canteen" for our
                    water bottles.

                    Andrew Bateman, 41st Foot

                    Larry Lozon wrote:
                    > As I do not have Pierre Turner's
                    > SOLDIERS ACCOUTREMENTS OF THE BRITISH ARMY 1750- 1900,
                    > and the question "Why were Crown Forces canteens made of wood during
                    > The War of 1812?" was not answered
                    >
                    > I have consulted
                    > OSPREY MEN-AT-ARMS SERIES 107
                    > British Infantry Equipment 1808-1908
                    > Mike Chappell ISBN 0 85045 374 7
                    >
                    > It cites the wooden or "ITALIAN" canteen as being issued because the
                    > metal flasks (Rev War 1776) were prone to rust and glass was too
                    > fragile. The wooden or "ITALIAN" canteen was used until the 1870's.
                    > …………….
                    >
                    > Weapons & Equipment
                    > Of the NAPOLEONIC WARS
                    > Philip J. Haythornshwaite ISBN 1 85409 495 5
                    >
                    > Does not tell why the canteen was made from wood but shows all the
                    > canteens used during the Napoleonic Wars both regulation and non-
                    > regulation.
                    >
                    >
                    > So from this I come to the conclusion that wood lasted longer even if
                    > it leaked and the users were not happy with it
                    >
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