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Re: 1812 Re: Master and Commander

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  • John Ogden
    Vic, We can indeed hope for a decent and accurate treatment of this period on film, although I won t hold my breath. Long live the Republic! ... -- John J.
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 1, 2008
      Vic,
      We can indeed hope for a decent and accurate treatment of this period
      on film, although I won't hold my breath.

      Long live the Republic!


      On 8/1/08, suthren@... <suthren@...> wrote:
      >
      > Too right you are about misleading films. Mel Gibson's hatred for all
      > things English has led him to beat to death a recurrent theme (Mel the
      > mild-mannered nice guy, Mel put upon by sadistic, cruel or brutal Brits, Mel
      > shafted by them or turning against them in righteous rebellion and doing in
      > quite a few) that he's repeated in everything from 'Gallipoli' through 'The
      > Bounty' and 'Braveheart' to 'The Patriot'. I don't mind him having a
      > pathological hatred that he plays out in film, it's just that so few good
      > historical films are made it would have been nice if 'The Patriot' had not
      > given so distorted an image of the AWI, which took away the dignity of the
      > original struggle (there was a great deal) and made it instead a
      > good-guys-against-the-SS parody (which had none) that cheapened what the
      > American fight for independence was all about. In our 1812 era let's hope
      > that the upcoming Bicentennial stirs in some flinty Hollywood heart the urge
      > to see box-office in, say, the exploits of Joshua Barney or Oliver Hazard
      > Perry (or even 'Old Fuss And Feathers' Winfield Scott) who battle Brits and
      > Canadians that are gallant and worthy foes, not despicable near-criminals.
      > We can hope, eh?
      >
      > Vic Suthren
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: John Potter
      > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 10:02 PM
      > Subject: 1812 Re: Master and Commander
      >
      > You're right Vic, it would have been just as easy to get some of the
      > small details right AND have had a story that would keep the masses
      > entertained. I did enjoy M&C in the cinemas when I saw it but also
      > found the storyline to be slow moving and dull to be honest. Thank
      > heavens for the battle scene at the end..!
      >
      > I also enjoyed POTC but at least you know with this sort of fictional
      > romp that it isn't trying to be historically correct. This kind of
      > fantasy doesn't bother me as much as the films which mislead people
      > into thinking they are seeing something historical or even a
      > fictional story in a historical setting when it is obviously (to us)
      > misrepresenting the past - things like U571, The Patriot, etc..
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      > John
      >
      > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>, <suthren@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > I think the heavy criticism M&C received because of its historical
      > inaccuracies and errors stemmed from the deep, understandable wish
      > that on this rare occasion when big-budget filmmaking turned to our
      > beloved era, they would get it right. "Pirates of the Caribbean"
      > could never have been taken as even approaching what actually
      > happened in 1680 to 1720 or so---not too many lads ended up on
      > Wapping Gibbet with an octopus-tentacle face---but the thing about
      > M&C is that it was meant to be a fictional story set in a real
      > environment: it could have taken place. Those who cared wanted it to
      > be spot-on in detail and knowledge (and also to have a storyline that
      > would grab the non-buff), and to watch the film and wince when small
      > things were simply done wrong ( one doesn't say "Avast rowing". One
      > says "Oars", etc. etc.) was disappointing. I suppose one risks being
      > a version of a "stitch-Nazi" thinking like this, but, Gee, it would
      > have been nice to sink into the enjoyment of the film knowing it had
      > respected the past and was 'getting it right' even in the small
      > things. POTC threw history out the window and were silly romps that
      > had a 1680s governor and a 1759 Commodore commanding Nelsonian
      > seamen, etc. etc., but we wanted more from M&C. I know I did.
      > >
      > > Vic Suthren
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >



      --
      John J. Ogden
      Hanley School of Law
      Duquesne University
      Class of 2011

      "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
      in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
      particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James
      Madison, June 20, 1785

      "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense,
      founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of
      enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and, as the
      said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any
      Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising
      from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony
      existing between the two countries." -- Article 11 of the Treaty of Peace
      and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli
      of Barbary, 3 Junad 1211 (Muslim calendar), 4 November 1796 C.E..


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • JGIL1812@aol.com
      Vic, You ve raised an interesting side conversation here. If you were making a film today centered on the War of 1812, who would be the central characters to
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 1, 2008
        Vic,

        You've raised an interesting side conversation here. If you were making a
        film today centered on the War of 1812, who would be the central characters to
        make it saleable to the American and Canadian movie or TV audiences? As you
        have mentioned Barney, Perry and Scott I am sure that there are other choices
        that would make a decent film palatable to both sides of the border. Waiting
        to hear from the world!

        JG/RE


        In a message dated 8/1/2008 5:09:32 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
        suthren@... writes:

        <<In our 1812 era let's hope that the upcoming Bicentennial stirs in some
        flinty Hollywood heart the urge to see box-office in, say, the exploits of
        Joshua Barney or Oliver Hazard Perry (or even 'Old Fuss And Feathers' Winfield
        Scott) who battle Brits and Canadians that are gallant and worthy foes, not
        despicable near-criminals. We can hope, eh?>>





        **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • John Ogden
        Now we just need a script and someone to pitch it to... ... -- John J. Ogden Hanley School of Law Duquesne University Class of 2011 Who does not see that the
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 1, 2008
          Now we just need a script and someone to pitch it to...

          On 8/1/08, suthren@... <suthren@...> wrote:
          >
          > I really think the story of the Lake Erie naval race,culminating at
          > Put-in Bay, would make a terrific film, particularly because of several
          > factors: (a) Perry and Barclay were both honourable men and fine seamen, and
          > did the best they could under trying conditions; (b) Perry's seamanship in
          > getting his fleet out 'over the bar' was masterful; (c) Barclay manned his
          > fleet with Brits, Canadians and Warriors, and fought hard and
          > courageously---as did Perry's men---in a close-fought battle that could have
          > gone either way; and (d) Perry and his men treated Barclay's men with
          > honour, and the seamen worked together to put things back together after the
          > battle. And Perry tended Barclay personally, even supporting him as they
          > stood at the burial of the officers of both fleets ashore. Courage,
          > seamanship, honour and the behavior of brave "officers and gentlemen" who
          > respected one another. It doesn't get any better than that. And what a film
          > it would make....
          >
          > Vic
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: JGIL1812@... <JGIL1812%40aol.com>
          > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 11:49 AM
          > Subject: Re: 1812 Re: Master and Commander
          >
          > Vic,
          >
          > You've raised an interesting side conversation here. If you were making a
          > film today centered on the War of 1812, who would be the central characters
          > to
          > make it saleable to the American and Canadian movie or TV audiences? As you
          >
          > have mentioned Barney, Perry and Scott I am sure that there are other
          > choices
          > that would make a decent film palatable to both sides of the border.
          > Waiting
          > to hear from the world!
          >
          > JG/RE
          >
          > In a message dated 8/1/2008 5:09:32 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
          > suthren@... <suthren%40magma.ca> writes:
          >
          > <<In our 1812 era let's hope that the upcoming Bicentennial stirs in some
          > flinty Hollywood heart the urge to see box-office in, say, the exploits of
          > Joshua Barney or Oliver Hazard Perry (or even 'Old Fuss And Feathers'
          > Winfield
          > Scott) who battle Brits and Canadians that are gallant and worthy foes, not
          >
          > despicable near-criminals. We can hope, eh?>>
          >
          > **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
          > FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
          > (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >



          --
          John J. Ogden
          Hanley School of Law
          Duquesne University
          Class of 2011

          "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
          in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
          particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James
          Madison, June 20, 1785

          "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense,
          founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of
          enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and, as the
          said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any
          Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising
          from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony
          existing between the two countries." -- Article 11 of the Treaty of Peace
          and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli
          of Barbary, 3 Junad 1211 (Muslim calendar), 4 November 1796 C.E..


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • suthren@magma.ca
          I really think the story of the Lake Erie naval race,culminating at Put-in Bay, would make a terrific film, particularly because of several factors: (a) Perry
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 1, 2008
            I really think the story of the Lake Erie naval race,culminating at Put-in Bay, would make a terrific film, particularly because of several factors: (a) Perry and Barclay were both honourable men and fine seamen, and did the best they could under trying conditions; (b) Perry's seamanship in getting his fleet out 'over the bar' was masterful; (c) Barclay manned his fleet with Brits, Canadians and Warriors, and fought hard and courageously---as did Perry's men---in a close-fought battle that could have gone either way; and (d) Perry and his men treated Barclay's men with honour, and the seamen worked together to put things back together after the battle. And Perry tended Barclay personally, even supporting him as they stood at the burial of the officers of both fleets ashore. Courage, seamanship, honour and the behavior of brave "officers and gentlemen" who respected one another. It doesn't get any better than that. And what a film it would make....

            Vic
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: JGIL1812@...
            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 11:49 AM
            Subject: Re: 1812 Re: Master and Commander


            Vic,

            You've raised an interesting side conversation here. If you were making a
            film today centered on the War of 1812, who would be the central characters to
            make it saleable to the American and Canadian movie or TV audiences? As you
            have mentioned Barney, Perry and Scott I am sure that there are other choices
            that would make a decent film palatable to both sides of the border. Waiting
            to hear from the world!

            JG/RE


            In a message dated 8/1/2008 5:09:32 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
            suthren@... writes:

            <<In our 1812 era let's hope that the upcoming Bicentennial stirs in some
            flinty Hollywood heart the urge to see box-office in, say, the exploits of
            Joshua Barney or Oliver Hazard Perry (or even 'Old Fuss And Feathers' Winfield
            Scott) who battle Brits and Canadians that are gallant and worthy foes, not
            despicable near-criminals. We can hope, eh?>>

            **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
            FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
            (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • BritcomHMP@aol.com
            In a message dated 8/1/2008 7:09:22 AM Central Daylight Time, suthren@magma.ca writes: In our 1812 era let s hope that the upcoming Bicentennial stirs in some
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 1, 2008
              In a message dated 8/1/2008 7:09:22 AM Central Daylight Time,
              suthren@... writes:

              In our 1812 era let's hope that the upcoming Bicentennial stirs in some
              flinty Hollywood heart the urge to see box-office in, say, the exploits of Joshua
              Barney or Oliver Hazard Perry (or even 'Old Fuss And Feathers' Winfield
              Scott) who battle Brits and Canadians that are gallant and worthy foes, not
              despicable near-criminals. We can hope, eh?




              -------------------------------------

              Don't bank on it, this stupid atitude is so ingrained that a few years ago
              I, and other members of this list, were present at a Battle of New Orleans
              commemoration where the emenent historian Robert Remini (Andrew Jackson expert
              and the official historian of the US Congress) was invited to speak. He shocked
              - no horified many of his listeners when aften making many questionable
              remarks about the British, in the presence of many local dignitaries, including
              the Honorary British Consul, he tried to bring his talk uo to date with the
              statement "and today we are again fighting against terrorists who would like to
              end our way of life"!!

              When one has higly respected historians coming out with such brain dead
              statements what can we expect from Hollywood.

              Cheers,

              Tim



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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dale Kidd
              Sadly, it seems that the concept of honourable treatment of one s emnemies is out of fashion in Hollywood today, whether historically factual or not. I shudder
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 1, 2008
                Sadly, it seems that the concept of honourable treatment of one's
                emnemies is out of fashion in Hollywood today, whether historically
                factual or not. I shudder to think of how any portrayal of the Battle
                of Put-in Bay produced today would treat Barclay. He would almost
                certainly die spitted on the blade of a grimacing Perry, who would
                likely be played by Hollywood's all-American hunk de jour. Barclay,
                naturally, would be played by some weasely-looking fellow with a
                British accent.

                Perhaps it would be better if Hollywood did NOT take too close an
                interest in the bicentennial.... they might actually succeed in
                rekindling the war.

                ~Dale
              • dzallis
                ... some ... exploits of Joshua ... Winfield ... foes, not ... Orleans ... Jackson expert ... speak. He shocked ... questionable ... dignitaries, including ...
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 2, 2008
                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, BritcomHMP@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > In a message dated 8/1/2008 7:09:22 AM Central Daylight Time,
                  > suthren@... writes:
                  >
                  > In our 1812 era let's hope that the upcoming Bicentennial stirs in
                  some
                  > flinty Hollywood heart the urge to see box-office in, say, the
                  exploits of Joshua
                  > Barney or Oliver Hazard Perry (or even 'Old Fuss And Feathers'
                  Winfield
                  > Scott) who battle Brits and Canadians that are gallant and worthy
                  foes, not
                  > despicable near-criminals. We can hope, eh?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --------------------------
                  > Don't bank on it, this -----------
                  > stupid atitude is so ingrained that a few years ago
                  > I, and other members of this list, were present at a Battle of New
                  Orleans
                  > commemoration where the emenent historian Robert Remini (Andrew
                  Jackson expert
                  > and the official historian of the US Congress) was invited to
                  speak. He shocked
                  > - no horified many of his listeners when aften making many
                  questionable
                  > remarks about the British, in the presence of many local
                  dignitaries, including
                  > the Honorary British Consul, he tried to bring his talk uo to date
                  with the
                  > statement "and today we are again fighting against terrorists who
                  would like to
                  > end our way of life"!!
                  >
                  > When one has higly respected historians coming out with such brain
                  dead
                  > statements what can we expect from Hollywood.
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  >
                  > Tim
                  >I remember hearing Robert Remini talk on one of the History
                  Channels. He was so one sided in regards to Jackson that it was
                  repugnant. Later, I was watching one of the Richard Sharpe series and
                  during the commercial breaks Richard Cornwell was asked some
                  questions. The most interesting was, he was asked if the French were
                  really that bad. He replied that they were not but it was done for
                  dramatic effect. Then there must be something against portraying the
                  soldiesr as they really were. After all, soldiers probably fight for
                  their comrades rather than the symbols we are shown.

                  Warmest respects,
                  David Vargo
                  >
                  >
                  > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your
                  budget?
                  > Read reviews on AOL Autos.
                  > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?
                  ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                  In a message dated 8/2/2008 11:26:32 AM Central Daylight Time, Davidjrvargo@aol.com writes: Then there must be something against portraying the soldiesr as
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 2, 2008
                    In a message dated 8/2/2008 11:26:32 AM Central Daylight Time,
                    Davidjrvargo@... writes:

                    Then there must be something against portraying the
                    soldiesr as they really were. After all, soldiers probably fight for
                    their comrades rather than the symbols we are shown.




                    --------------------------------------

                    Very True David. I think a very good method is to try to tell the same story
                    twice, one from eavch side, which is actualy what I did in my New Orleans
                    book. The funny thing is I still got criticised by some people for being anti US
                    or rather pro British. It seemed that some took my pro US statements as just
                    a plain statement of fact and my pro Brit statements as anti US lies.

                    On the movie screen this has been done a few times, examples include Tora!
                    Tora! Tora! in which they basicaly made two films form two different poits of
                    view and edited them into one, and more recently Clint Eastwood's movies Flags
                    of Our Fathers and Letters from Iwo Jima which looked at the same event from
                    the two sides. Personaly I think that this would be a great way to portray
                    the war of 1812, I really do not understand the obsession at justifying
                    killing the enemy by having to portray him as evil incarnate (unless he actualy
                    was).
                    I put it down to modern touchy feely ideas that allof this heroism is very
                    bad and the only reason it can ever be glorified is if the other chap is so
                    intolerable that they had to be wiped from the face of the earth.

                    I don't think the one of my favorite lines from Zulu would ever be used
                    today,

                    "You know, even as I was shooting em' I was proud of em'"

                    Cheers

                    Tim



                    **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
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