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Pointed question on British Drill

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  • Iain Burns
    Hullo all, and especially to those Drill Sergeants out there.... I have been going through the 1811 manual, and trying to sort out unfixing bayonets. The
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 30, 2008
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      Hullo all, and especially to those Drill Sergeants out there....

      I have been going through the 1811 manual, and trying to sort out unfixing bayonets. The manual says that you go to Order, hold the musket with your LEFT hand, and remove and re-sheath your bayonet with the RIGHT. This does not seem like the most efficient way to me, and almost seems to be a mis-print; that left and right hands are reversed in the text.

      If it is indeed written correctly, I guess I need to figure out how this is to be done... it almost seems easier to take the right hand and bayonet around the back rather than around the front.

      Any CLEAN suggestions on how this is to be done correctly? Any links to drawings would be most appreciated by,

      Your S'rv't
      Iain
      (who has got a week to learn this stuff!)



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dave Westhouse
      If I may, I have read the drill manual many times over. There are several instances where instructions are given but the minute details that should be there
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 30, 2008
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        If I may,

        I have read the drill manual many times over. There are several
        instances where instructions are given but the minute details that
        should be there were never given. Fixing and unfixing of the bayonet
        are 2 of them.

        The unfixing of bayonet is correct but as I said there is some detail
        missing.

        Command - UNFIX

        move right hand around rear of musket grabbing as if to shoulder

        Command - BAYONETS

        Push musket slightly forward and grab with left hand.
        Quit the right hand from the musket.
        With the right hand strike upwards on the bayonet using the crook of
        the thumb and index finger.
        Turn bayonet and lift off.
        Turn bayonet point down.
        Cradle musket with inside of right elbow.
        With left hand find scabbard and guide point of bayonet to it.
        Right hand puts bayonet in scabbard.
        Left hand grabs musket and right hand comes back to musket.
        Return musket to order with right hand.

        Bayonet should be returned to scabbard without looking down.

        Hope this helps.

        Dave Westhouse, Corporal
        1st (Royal Scots) Regiment.




        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Iain Burns" <iain51hdbw@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hullo all, and especially to those Drill Sergeants out there....
        >
        > I have been going through the 1811 manual, and trying to sort
        out unfixing bayonets. The manual says that you go to Order, hold the
        musket with your LEFT hand, and remove and re-sheath your bayonet with
        the RIGHT. This does not seem like the most efficient way to me, and
        almost seems to be a mis-print; that left and right hands are reversed
        in the text.
        >
        > If it is indeed written correctly, I guess I need to figure out
        how this is to be done... it almost seems easier to take the right
        hand and bayonet around the back rather than around the front.
        >
        > Any CLEAN suggestions on how this is to be done correctly? Any
        links to drawings would be most appreciated by,
        >
        > Your S'rv't
        > Iain
        > (who has got a week to learn this stuff!)
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Richard Feltoe
        Dear Iain, I think I have what you need in the way of reference, both text and imagery. It is part of the reference work that I am creating (Under the title
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 30, 2008
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          Dear Iain,
          I think I have what you need in the way of reference, both text and imagery. It is part of the reference work that I am creating (Under the title "The old Sodger's Companion") that takes all of the British Army and Militia drill books that I have uncovered for the period 1790 to 1828 (to this point around 25) and then breaks each one down into its individual drill movements and puts all of the versions together, side by side and includes all known contemporary and associated drill book images (from those same manuals) that go with that movement. My aim is to enable any reenactor to make a direct comparison of the variations in drillb that existed, or to distinguish how in many cases these variations were in fact simply different ways of describing the same thing. However,as I cannot include the very useful images (from at least two of these original manuals) on this yahoo list, I will put up the text here, but if you (and anyone else who wants it) to email me direct, I'll reply including an attachment with the pictures of the pages for fixing and unfixing bayonets. As you can see while there are variations in description for the drill, the ones I've annotated are the best in my judgement. I have currently done the complete manual for the recruit and platoon 1st and 2nd sections and am going to do the battalion-level when I get a free hour or twenty.
          Regards
          Richard Feltoe
          feltoe@...

          THE MANUAL AT ARMS EXERCISE,

          FIX BAYONETS



          (R&R 98/11/16) (FITZGIBBON05/15) (ROBERTS98) (LOWERCANADA12) (M&P28) (LIVERPOOL98) (VOLUNTEER 03/14) (DRILLSGT98)

          Fix Bayonets
          1st At the word Fix, place the thumb of the right hand, as quick as possible, behind the barrel, taking a grip(e) of the firelock.

          2nd As soon as the word of command bayonets is fully given, push the firelock a little forward, at the same time drawing out the bayonet with the left hand, and fixing it with the utmost celerity. The instant this is done, return, as quick as possible, to the Order as above described, and stand perfectly steady.





          THIS POINT IS IMPORTANT!

          (ROBERTS98)

          ...The bayonet must be seized backhanded, and well forced down when in the act of being drawn out...







          (ACKERMANN99)

          Fix Bayonets
          1st At the word Fix the right thumb is slipt quick behind the barrel & the left seizes the bayonet

          2nd At the word Bayonet the firelock is pushed a little forward, the left hand draws & nimbly fixes the bayonet,...

          3rd Immediately after the bayonet is fixed, the muzzle of the firelock is drawn back & the right hand brought extended over the sling, standing in the [Attention]







          UNFIXING BAYONETS



          (R&R 98/11/16) (FITZGIBBON05/15) (LOWERCANADA12)

          Unfix Bayonets (The Arms being at the order)

          The 1st and 2nd motions are the same as ordered for fixing.

          3rd The left hand grasps the firelock above the upper swivel and with the right the bayonet is to be struck off and immediately returned to the scabbard, and the firelock to be placed quickly in its original position at ordered arms.



          (ACKERMANN99)

          Unfix Bayonets
          1st At the word Unfix the right thumb is slip'd behind the barrel, the same as [Shoulder Arms, 1st Motion]

          2nd At the word Bayonet the muzzle is brought forward, the left hand crosses the body & lays hold of the firelock a little below the socket of the bayonet: at the same time unfixing the bayonet with the right hand as quick as possible.

          3rd The firelock rests on the right arm, the right hand returning the bayonet to the scabbard bringing it a little forward with the left hand, the 2nd & 3rd Motions follow rapidly without interval.



          (DRILLSGT98)

          Unfix Bayonets is executed from the Order, in the same manner as fixing, only reversed...





          THIS DESCRIPTION IS BEST

          (M&P28)

          Unfix Bayonets
          At the word Unfix, slip the thumb of the right hand in rear of the barrel; at the last sound of Bayonets, force the muzzle a little forward, bring the left hand smartly to the upper loop, the thumb pointing upwards. Strike the bow of the bayonet with the heel of the right hand so as to unfix it; let the bow fall over the thumb, and the two fore-fingers on the top of the socket. With the left hand force the muzzle of the firelock back to its proper position, at the same instant bring the thumb of the left hand on the top of the scabbard, for the purpose of guiding the bayonet into it; and bring the right hand smartly to the position of ordered arms.






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Iain Burns
          Dave and Richard... Thanks for your prompt returns, this is exactly what I was looking for. (Richard, I will email you off list for the drawings) Aye, Iain No
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 30, 2008
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            Dave and Richard...

            Thanks for your prompt returns, this is exactly what I was looking for. (Richard, I will email you off list for the drawings)

            Aye,
            Iain
            No 3 Coy, 42nd RHR

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Richard Feltoe<mailto:feltoe@...>
            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 4:50 PM
            Subject: Re: 1812 Pointed question on British Drill


            Dear Iain,
            I think I have what you need in the way of reference, both text and imagery. It is part of the reference work that I am creating (Under the title "The old Sodger's Companion") that takes all of the British Army and Militia drill books that I have uncovered for the period 1790 to 1828 (to this point around 25) and then breaks each one down into its individual drill movements and puts all of the versions together, side by side and includes all known contemporary and associated drill book images (from those same manuals) that go with that movement. My aim is to enable any reenactor to make a direct comparison of the variations in drillb that existed, or to distinguish how in many cases these variations were in fact simply different ways of describing the same thing. However,as I cannot include the very useful images (from at least two of these original manuals) on this yahoo list, I will put up the text here, but if you (and anyone else who wants it) to email me direct, I'll reply including an attachment with the pictures of the pages for fixing and unfixing bayonets. As you can see while there are variations in description for the drill, the ones I've annotated are the best in my judgement. I have currently done the complete manual for the recruit and platoon 1st and 2nd sections and am going to do the battalion-level when I get a free hour or twenty.
            Regards
            Richard Feltoe
            feltoe@...<mailto:feltoe%40rogers.com>

            THE MANUAL AT ARMS EXERCISE,

            FIX BAYONETS

            (R&R 98/11/16) (FITZGIBBON05/15) (ROBERTS98) (LOWERCANADA12) (M&P28) (LIVERPOOL98) (VOLUNTEER 03/14) (DRILLSGT98)

            Fix Bayonets
            1st At the word Fix, place the thumb of the right hand, as quick as possible, behind the barrel, taking a grip(e) of the firelock.

            2nd As soon as the word of command bayonets is fully given, push the firelock a little forward, at the same time drawing out the bayonet with the left hand, and fixing it with the utmost celerity. The instant this is done, return, as quick as possible, to the Order as above described, and stand perfectly steady.

            THIS POINT IS IMPORTANT!

            (ROBERTS98)

            ...The bayonet must be seized backhanded, and well forced down when in the act of being drawn out...

            (ACKERMANN99)

            Fix Bayonets
            1st At the word Fix the right thumb is slipt quick behind the barrel & the left seizes the bayonet

            2nd At the word Bayonet the firelock is pushed a little forward, the left hand draws & nimbly fixes the bayonet,...

            3rd Immediately after the bayonet is fixed, the muzzle of the firelock is drawn back & the right hand brought extended over the sling, standing in the [Attention]

            UNFIXING BAYONETS

            (R&R 98/11/16) (FITZGIBBON05/15) (LOWERCANADA12)

            Unfix Bayonets (The Arms being at the order)

            The 1st and 2nd motions are the same as ordered for fixing.

            3rd The left hand grasps the firelock above the upper swivel and with the right the bayonet is to be struck off and immediately returned to the scabbard, and the firelock to be placed quickly in its original position at ordered arms.

            (ACKERMANN99)

            Unfix Bayonets
            1st At the word Unfix the right thumb is slip'd behind the barrel, the same as [Shoulder Arms, 1st Motion]

            2nd At the word Bayonet the muzzle is brought forward, the left hand crosses the body & lays hold of the firelock a little below the socket of the bayonet: at the same time unfixing the bayonet with the right hand as quick as possible.

            3rd The firelock rests on the right arm, the right hand returning the bayonet to the scabbard bringing it a little forward with the left hand, the 2nd & 3rd Motions follow rapidly without interval.

            (DRILLSGT98)

            Unfix Bayonets is executed from the Order, in the same manner as fixing, only reversed...

            THIS DESCRIPTION IS BEST

            (M&P28)

            Unfix Bayonets
            At the word Unfix, slip the thumb of the right hand in rear of the barrel; at the last sound of Bayonets, force the muzzle a little forward, bring the left hand smartly to the upper loop, the thumb pointing upwards. Strike the bow of the bayonet with the heel of the right hand so as to unfix it; let the bow fall over the thumb, and the two fore-fingers on the top of the socket. With the left hand force the muzzle of the firelock back to its proper position, at the same instant bring the thumb of the left hand on the top of the scabbard, for the purpose of guiding the bayonet into it; and bring the right hand smartly to the position of ordered arms.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • suthren@magma.ca
            As a PS to the discussion of these movements, and indeed all drill movements, I think it can t be stressed enough that the movements require sharp quickness
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 30, 2008
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              As a PS to the discussion of these movements, and indeed all drill movements, I think it can't be stressed enough that the movements require sharp quickness when executed, and the pauses between those movements, absolute stillness. This marks the 'regular' from the militiaman---and the reenactor with too little drill time. The casual, slow, uncoordinated handling of arms in an otherwise sharp-looking unit is always so disappointing.

              Vic Suthren
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Richard Feltoe
              To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 4:50 PM
              Subject: Re: 1812 Pointed question on British Drill


              Dear Iain,
              I think I have what you need in the way of reference, both text and imagery. It is part of the reference work that I am creating (Under the title "The old Sodger's Companion") that takes all of the British Army and Militia drill books that I have uncovered for the period 1790 to 1828 (to this point around 25) and then breaks each one down into its individual drill movements and puts all of the versions together, side by side and includes all known contemporary and associated drill book images (from those same manuals) that go with that movement. My aim is to enable any reenactor to make a direct comparison of the variations in drillb that existed, or to distinguish how in many cases these variations were in fact simply different ways of describing the same thing. However,as I cannot include the very useful images (from at least two of these original manuals) on this yahoo list, I will put up the text here, but if you (and anyone else who wants it) to email me direct, I'll reply including an attachment with the pictures of the pages for fixing and unfixing bayonets. As you can see while there are variations in description for the drill, the ones I've annotated are the best in my judgement. I have currently done the complete manual for the recruit and platoon 1st and 2nd sections and am going to do the battalion-level when I get a free hour or twenty.
              Regards
              Richard Feltoe
              feltoe@...

              THE MANUAL AT ARMS EXERCISE,

              FIX BAYONETS

              (R&R 98/11/16) (FITZGIBBON05/15) (ROBERTS98) (LOWERCANADA12) (M&P28) (LIVERPOOL98) (VOLUNTEER 03/14) (DRILLSGT98)

              Fix Bayonets
              1st At the word Fix, place the thumb of the right hand, as quick as possible, behind the barrel, taking a grip(e) of the firelock.

              2nd As soon as the word of command bayonets is fully given, push the firelock a little forward, at the same time drawing out the bayonet with the left hand, and fixing it with the utmost celerity. The instant this is done, return, as quick as possible, to the Order as above described, and stand perfectly steady.

              THIS POINT IS IMPORTANT!

              (ROBERTS98)

              ...The bayonet must be seized backhanded, and well forced down when in the act of being drawn out...

              (ACKERMANN99)

              Fix Bayonets
              1st At the word Fix the right thumb is slipt quick behind the barrel & the left seizes the bayonet

              2nd At the word Bayonet the firelock is pushed a little forward, the left hand draws & nimbly fixes the bayonet,...

              3rd Immediately after the bayonet is fixed, the muzzle of the firelock is drawn back & the right hand brought extended over the sling, standing in the [Attention]

              UNFIXING BAYONETS

              (R&R 98/11/16) (FITZGIBBON05/15) (LOWERCANADA12)

              Unfix Bayonets (The Arms being at the order)

              The 1st and 2nd motions are the same as ordered for fixing.

              3rd The left hand grasps the firelock above the upper swivel and with the right the bayonet is to be struck off and immediately returned to the scabbard, and the firelock to be placed quickly in its original position at ordered arms.

              (ACKERMANN99)

              Unfix Bayonets
              1st At the word Unfix the right thumb is slip'd behind the barrel, the same as [Shoulder Arms, 1st Motion]

              2nd At the word Bayonet the muzzle is brought forward, the left hand crosses the body & lays hold of the firelock a little below the socket of the bayonet: at the same time unfixing the bayonet with the right hand as quick as possible.

              3rd The firelock rests on the right arm, the right hand returning the bayonet to the scabbard bringing it a little forward with the left hand, the 2nd & 3rd Motions follow rapidly without interval.

              (DRILLSGT98)

              Unfix Bayonets is executed from the Order, in the same manner as fixing, only reversed...

              THIS DESCRIPTION IS BEST

              (M&P28)

              Unfix Bayonets
              At the word Unfix, slip the thumb of the right hand in rear of the barrel; at the last sound of Bayonets, force the muzzle a little forward, bring the left hand smartly to the upper loop, the thumb pointing upwards. Strike the bow of the bayonet with the heel of the right hand so as to unfix it; let the bow fall over the thumb, and the two fore-fingers on the top of the socket. With the left hand force the muzzle of the firelock back to its proper position, at the same instant bring the thumb of the left hand on the top of the scabbard, for the purpose of guiding the bayonet into it; and bring the right hand smartly to the position of ordered arms.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • spikeyj
              On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:02:46 -0400 ... Removing the bayonet with the left hand is easy enough, but unless you re double-jointed, trying to get it into a
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 1, 2008
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                On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:02:46 -0400
                "Iain Burns" <iain51hdbw@...> wrote:
                >
                > I have been going through the 1811 manual, and trying
                > to sort out unfixing bayonets. The manual says that you
                > go to Order, hold the musket with your LEFT hand, and
                > remove and re-sheath your bayonet with the RIGHT. This
                > does not seem like the most efficient way to me, and
                > almost seems to be a mis-print; that left and right hands
                > are reversed in the text.

                Removing the bayonet with the left hand is easy enough, but
                unless you're double-jointed, trying to get it into a
                scabbard hanging on your left side without elbowing the man
                to your left in the head can be tricky.

                Spike Y Jones
                ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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              • Tom Hurlbut
                Ah, just use Smythe s drill instead!! ;-) Major Tom US 25th
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 2, 2008
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                  Ah, just use Smythe's drill instead!! ;-)

                  "Major" Tom

                  US 25th
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