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Re: 1812 bombardment or battle - is there a difference?

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  • mimathews@comcast.net
    What s in a name? I don t have the answer or frankly find it terribly important. I would observe that the poen first published by Francis Scott Key was
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 8, 2008
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      What's in a name? I don't have the answer or frankly find it terribly important.

      I would observe that the poen first published by Francis Scott Key was entitled the "Defense of Fort McHenry."

      A song of the time, "The Patriotic Diggers" celebrates the people of all backgrounds rallying to prepare the defenses of Baltimore. Whether the song emerged before the defense of Fort McHenry or as an afterthought is not known to me. If we knew it might suggest what level of importance they placed on the defense. I find that the words of popular songs of the period often tell us more about what was perceived as important to the participants of the time that what we analyze later. For your possible edification:

      THE PATRIOTIC DIGGERS
      (Samuel Woodward)

      Enemies beware. Keep a proper distance,
      Else we'll make you stare at our firm resistance.
      Let alone the lads who are freedom tasting
      Don't forget, our dads gave you once a basting.
      To protect our rights 'gainst your flints and triggers
      See on yonder heights our patriotic diggers.
      Men of ev'ry age, color, rank profession
      Ardently engage, labor in succession.

      cho: Pickaxe, shovel, spade, crowbar, hoe and barrow
      Better not invade. Yankees have the marrow!

      Scholars leave their schools with patriotic teachers,
      Farmers sieze their tools headed by their preachers.
      How they break the soil! Brewers, butchers, bakers
      Here the doctors toil, there the undertakers.
      Bright Apollo's sons leave their pipe and tabor
      Mid the roar of guns, join the martial labor.
      Round the embattled plain in sweet concord rally
      And in freedom's strain sing the foe's finale.

      Better not invade. Don't forget the spirit
      Which our dads displayed andf their sons inherit.
      If you still advance friendly caution slighting
      You may get by chance a bellyful of fighting!
      Plumbers, founders, dyers, tinmen, turners shavers,
      Sweepers, clerks and criers, jewelers and engravers.
      Clothiers, drapers, players, cartmen, hatters, tailors
      Gaugers, sealers, weighers, carpenters and sailors!

      Michael


      --
      A Truism - For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.

      -------------- Original message --------------
      From: "James Yaworsky" <yawors1@...>
      I confess to knowing virtually no details of the British bombardment
      of Fort McHenry, other than the obvious fact everyone knows - the Star
      Spangled Banner tie-in.

      (snip)



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • BritcomHMP@aol.com
      In a message dated 6/8/2008 1:05:36 PM Central Daylight Time, mimathews@comcast.net writes: What s in a name? I don t have the answer or frankly find it
      Message 2 of 6 , Jun 8, 2008
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        In a message dated 6/8/2008 1:05:36 PM Central Daylight Time,
        mimathews@... writes:

        What's in a name? I don't have the answer or frankly find it terribly
        important.



        -----------------------

        Well Mike, that depends on weather words actually mean things or not. One
        thing we can say for sure is that it wasn't a battle. One fights a battle
        against an army, one lays siege to, or bombards a town city or fortress. The words
        are important because they tell you what a thing is, at least they did 200
        years ago so I think it is not unreasonable to go with the definitions used
        back then.

        Ah but here comes another wrinkle, which SIDE are you on and what is your
        perception? The British may have decided that it was not to be an attack on
        McHenry but only a diversionary bombardment but the defenders can hardly be
        expected to see it the same way when rockets and shells are landing on them. So
        while it is perfectly accurate for the British to say it was a diversion, it
        also accurate for US accounts to call it a serious assault and take pride in
        their survival.

        Perception is everything after all the Battle of New Orleans was fought
        while the war was still going on and it was NOT the last battle of the war! I
        believe there are even people who think the US won, even though non of their
        stated reasons for declaring war were acceded to and the US flag doesn't fly
        over Canada!

        INCOMING !!!!!!!!!



        **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
        Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
        (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Colin
        I love the responses!!The reason I posted in the first place!! I just want to add another comment as well .. I personally see the exchange of fire being a
        Message 3 of 6 , Jun 8, 2008
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          I love the responses!!The reason I posted in the first place!!

          I just want to add another comment as well

          .. I personally see the exchange of fire being a quailifier for "a
          battle". The Americans fired back, causing ships to draw back. The
          diversion up the Ferry Branch also had Americans firing at an enemy
          tactical move. If the Americans just sat their and took the
          hammering (which the fort did for 90% of the time)I would call that
          a siege or bombardment but they did fire back. Is that then a "re-
          bombardment?"
          Was then the 2nd Battle of St. Leonard's Creek a battle for the men
          who were on shore (as it has been established that artillery fire
          between ships is a battle, but not ships and a fort?)?

          Is "small arms" fire the qualifier?

          Again
          YHOS
          Colin Murphy
          USS CON 1812 MG
          USMCHC


          PS Would this all be a part of "The Battle of Baltimore"
          Kinda like the air bombing on the French coast in the days previous
          to D-Day. Tose airmen could say they fought in that battle even
          though no small arms fire would be exchanged until a day or tow (or
          more) later....or am I just grasping at imaginary straws here?

          --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, BritcomHMP@... wrote:
          >
          >
          > In a message dated 6/8/2008 1:05:36 PM Central Daylight Time,
          > mimathews@... writes:
          >
          > What's in a name? I don't have the answer or frankly find it
          terribly
          > important.
          >
          >
          >
          > -----------------------
          >
          > Well Mike, that depends on weather words actually mean things or
          not. One
          > thing we can say for sure is that it wasn't a battle. One fights a
          battle
          > against an army, one lays siege to, or bombards a town city or
          fortress. The words
          > are important because they tell you what a thing is, at least they
          did 200
          > years ago so I think it is not unreasonable to go with the
          definitions used
          > back then.
          >
          > Ah but here comes another wrinkle, which SIDE are you on and what
          is your
          > perception? The British may have decided that it was not to be an
          attack on
          > McHenry but only a diversionary bombardment but the defenders can
          hardly be
          > expected to see it the same way when rockets and shells are
          landing on them. So
          > while it is perfectly accurate for the British to say it was a
          diversion, it
          > also accurate for US accounts to call it a serious assault and
          take pride in
          > their survival.
          >
          > Perception is everything after all the Battle of New Orleans was
          fought
          > while the war was still going on and it was NOT the last battle of
          the war! I
          > believe there are even people who think the US won, even though
          non of their
          > stated reasons for declaring war were acceded to and the US flag
          doesn't fly
          > over Canada!
          >
          > INCOMING !!!!!!!!!
          >
          >
          >
          > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers.
          Watch "Cooking with
          > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
          > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?
          &NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • BritcomHMP@aol.com
          In a message dated 6/9/2008 1:57:45 AM Central Daylight Time, usmarine1814@yahoo.com writes: If the Americans just sat their and took the hammering (which the
          Message 4 of 6 , Jun 9, 2008
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            In a message dated 6/9/2008 1:57:45 AM Central Daylight Time,
            usmarine1814@... writes:

            If the Americans just sat their and took the
            hammering (which the fort did for 90% of the time)I would call that
            a siege or bombardment but they did fire back. Is that then a "re-
            bombardment?b

            -----------------------------------------------------------------

            Hmmmmm bit of faulty reasoning there Colin, it is fairly well accepted that
            if one is under siege one can fire back and that doesn't change what is going
            on, nor what it is called. Not of course that this was a siege but a
            bombardment, but in like manner it is fairly well accepted that the attacked fort
            can fire back without the afair being transformed into a battle.

            If you think about it if the fort firing back were the deciding factor there
            would be no sieges or bombardments inhistory, I mean if they are not going
            to fire at you why are you firing at them? just walk in an occupy the place!



            Is "small arms" fire the qualifier?


            Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm don't think so. Most battles have artillery pieces
            involved, in the case of New Orleans the largest gun on the field was a US 32
            pounder! And in many sieges of the period the defenders used rampart guns
            which (I think) qualify as small arms.

            Hey, this IS fun.

            Tim



            **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
            Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
            (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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