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Re: [War Of 1812] Beating her again and again...

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  • John Ogden
    All, As an American whose family has been here since well before the Declaration of Independence (read as very American ), I would argue that in regards to
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 26, 2008
      All,
      As an American whose family has been here since well before the
      Declaration of Independence (read as "very American"), I would argue that in
      regards to the War of 1812 there were no clear-cut "winners" in the usual
      meaning of the word. In the context of this little spat amongst the
      English-speaking nations, "victory" and "defeat" are highly relative and
      subjective terms.


      On 3/26/08, suthren@... <suthren@...> wrote:
      >
      > Partial Listing
      > Engagements Won (Or Lost) by Brown Bess in North America
      > 1812-1815
      >
      > Lost
      >
      > New Orleans
      > Plattsburgh
      > Baltimore
      > Chippawa
      > Moraviantown (the Thames)
      > Fort Stephenson
      > York
      > Fort George
      >
      > Won
      >
      > Bladensburg/Washington
      > Detroit
      > Queenston Heights
      > Stoney Creek
      > Lacolle Mill
      > Crysler's Farm
      > Chateauguay
      > Beaver Dams
      > Fort Mackinac
      > Prairie du Chien
      > Oswego
      > Fort Niagara
      >
      > Disputed
      >
      > Lundy's Lane
      > Sackets Harbor
      >
      > As said, a partial list only. Much honour/honor on both sides. But 'beat
      > her again and again'? I don't think so....
      >
      > Vic Suthren
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >



      --
      John J. Ogden
      Hanley School of Law
      Duquesne University
      Class of 2011

      "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
      in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
      particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James
      Madison, June 20, 1785


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Colin
      As an addendum...For each of those battles were the US Marines Fought Brown Bess was firing back at her countrymen. Yrs Colin Murphy USS CON 1812 MG USMCHC ...
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 26, 2008
        As an addendum...For each of those battles were the US Marines Fought
        Brown Bess was firing back at her countrymen.

        Yrs
        Colin Murphy
        USS CON 1812 MG
        USMCHC



        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, <suthren@...> wrote:
        >
        > Partial Listing
        > Engagements Won (Or Lost) by Brown Bess in North America
        > 1812-1815
        >
        > Lost
        >
        > New Orleans
        > Plattsburgh
        > Baltimore
        > Chippawa
        > Moraviantown (the Thames)
        > Fort Stephenson
        > York
        > Fort George
        >
        > Won
        >
        > Bladensburg/Washington
        > Detroit
        > Queenston Heights
        > Stoney Creek
        > Lacolle Mill
        > Crysler's Farm
        > Chateauguay
        > Beaver Dams
        > Fort Mackinac
        > Prairie du Chien
        > Oswego
        > Fort Niagara
        >
        > Disputed
        >
        > Lundy's Lane
        > Sackets Harbor
        >
        > As said, a partial list only. Much honour/honor on both sides. But
        'beat her again and again'? I don't think so....
        >
        > Vic Suthren
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • John Ogden
        Colin, This raises a question that has been in the back of my mind for some time now. Were these British arms used by the USMC of the Long Land, Short Land
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 26, 2008
          Colin,
          This raises a question that has been in the back of my mind for some
          time now. Were these British arms used by the USMC of the Long Land, Short
          Land (commonly reproduced by Pedersoli et alia) or India Pattern? If they
          were of either of the former patterns, were they acquired from the British
          large-scale surrenders at Saratoga and Yorktown, or purchased as surplus
          after the AWI? If they were India Pattern muskets, were these purchased as
          surplus (how were these acquired generally)? IIRC, the USMC preferred the
          British weapons because of their shorter barrels (Short Land = 42" barrel,
          India Pattern=39" barrel as opposed to the Charleville/Springfield barrel
          length of 44 3/4"), making them more easily carried or stored aboard a ship,
          which would naturally have limited space.


          On 3/26/08, Colin <usmarine1814@...> wrote:
          >
          > As an addendum...For each of those battles were the US Marines Fought
          > Brown Bess was firing back at her countrymen.
          >
          > Yrs
          > Colin Murphy
          > USS CON 1812 MG
          > USMCHC
          >
          > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > <suthren@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Partial Listing
          > > Engagements Won (Or Lost) by Brown Bess in North America
          > > 1812-1815
          > >
          > > Lost
          > >
          > > New Orleans
          > > Plattsburgh
          > > Baltimore
          > > Chippawa
          > > Moraviantown (the Thames)
          > > Fort Stephenson
          > > York
          > > Fort George
          > >
          > > Won
          > >
          > > Bladensburg/Washington
          > > Detroit
          > > Queenston Heights
          > > Stoney Creek
          > > Lacolle Mill
          > > Crysler's Farm
          > > Chateauguay
          > > Beaver Dams
          > > Fort Mackinac
          > > Prairie du Chien
          > > Oswego
          > > Fort Niagara
          > >
          > > Disputed
          > >
          > > Lundy's Lane
          > > Sackets Harbor
          > >
          > > As said, a partial list only. Much honour/honor on both sides. But
          > 'beat her again and again'? I don't think so....
          > >
          > > Vic Suthren
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >



          --
          John J. Ogden
          Hanley School of Law
          Duquesne University
          Class of 2011

          "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
          in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
          particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James
          Madison, June 20, 1785


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • BritcomHMP@aol.com
          ... Colin, it must say something about the inteligence of a unit when they recognize the superiority of the oponants weapon! :-) Cheers Tim Timothy Pickles
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 26, 2008
            In a message dated 3/26/08 12:55:00 PM, usmarine1814@... writes:


            > As an addendum...For each of those battles were the US Marines Fought
            > Brown Bess was firing back at her countrymen
            >

            --------------------

            Colin, it must say something about the inteligence of a unit when they
            recognize the superiority of the oponants weapon! :-)

            Cheers

            Tim



            Timothy Pickles




            **************
            Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
            Home.

            (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • suthren@magma.ca
            John is quite right. Yet as someone has once said, the myths of what happened often are of greater importance than the realities of what happened. I believe it
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 26, 2008
              John is quite right. Yet as someone has once said, the myths of what happened often are of greater importance than the realities of what happened. I believe it was quite important for the people of the young American republic to earnestly believe that they had 'defeated' several major British attempts at gaining ascendancy over them (at Plattsburgh, Baltimore and New Orleans)and what this meant to self-respect as a nation. The reality that the RN was bringing the US to a state of bankruptcy and that national ruin loomed ahead is forgotten. Similarly, the Canadian civilian population looked at the "defeats" of all (except Harrison's plunge into Ontario, which retired immediately after killing Tecumseth) American invasion attempts as defining moments in their own self-awareness: status as an independent nation came to Canada later---being part of the British Empire was not that bad a deal---but from 1814 onward, they at least knew who they weren't, and believed they had won that seperate identity and right to evolve as a separate people on the battlefield. That the principal share of the fighting in defence of Canada was done by British troops and warrior Indian allies has equally been forgotten.

              Truth be told, it is a tragedy that the war ever took place at all, because we are brothers and cousins if ever nations were. And our lads fight beside one another in Afghanistan as proud evidence of that. But in our 1812 hobby we can commemorate a common honour/honor in the sincere belief that, yes, we both "won"---because ultimately, an unshakeable friendship won.

              Vic Suthren
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: John Ogden
              To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 7:19 AM
              Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] Beating her again and again...


              All,
              As an American whose family has been here since well before the
              Declaration of Independence (read as "very American"), I would argue that in
              regards to the War of 1812 there were no clear-cut "winners" in the usual
              meaning of the word. In the context of this little spat amongst the
              English-speaking nations, "victory" and "defeat" are highly relative and
              subjective terms.

              On 3/26/08, suthren@... <suthren@...> wrote:
              >
              > Partial Listing
              > Engagements Won (Or Lost) by Brown Bess in North America
              > 1812-1815
              >
              > Lost
              >
              > New Orleans
              > Plattsburgh
              > Baltimore
              > Chippawa
              > Moraviantown (the Thames)
              > Fort Stephenson
              > York
              > Fort George
              >
              > Won
              >
              > Bladensburg/Washington
              > Detroit
              > Queenston Heights
              > Stoney Creek
              > Lacolle Mill
              > Crysler's Farm
              > Chateauguay
              > Beaver Dams
              > Fort Mackinac
              > Prairie du Chien
              > Oswego
              > Fort Niagara
              >
              > Disputed
              >
              > Lundy's Lane
              > Sackets Harbor
              >
              > As said, a partial list only. Much honour/honor on both sides. But 'beat
              > her again and again'? I don't think so....
              >
              > Vic Suthren
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >

              --
              John J. Ogden
              Hanley School of Law
              Duquesne University
              Class of 2011

              "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
              in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
              particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James
              Madison, June 20, 1785

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Colin
              Tim, et al The Marine Corps thought the Brown Bess far more suitable for them. The records indicate they begged borrowed, exchanged and even bought them at
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 26, 2008
                Tim, et al
                The Marine Corps thought the Brown Bess far more suitable for them.
                The records indicate they begged borrowed, exchanged and even bought
                them at public auction.

                Here are a couple of noteworthy mentions:
                IN the original exchange of 500 Brown Besses for 500 Sprinfields
                (or of that model) in 1805 the Officer sent to Harpers Ferry was
                pleased to report "they are the best Muskets for Marines I have ever
                seen, short and therefore more convienient. The barrel 3 ft 3 in
                and the Bayonet18 in."

                ALso the greatest praise came in 1813 when the Marines stationed
                onboard the captured Macedonian were issued Springfields because the
                Marines had temporarily ran out of Tower muskets. The officer wrote
                the Commandant of the Marine Corps:

                "The neccessity for Marines using Tower Muskets must appear obvious
                to you, particularly in boarding as they can use them with more
                facility and with better effect than they possibly can the
                Springfield, the barrels of the latter being much longer , the
                calibre shorter and with a shorter Bayonet than the English muskets
                generally used by Marines"

                He then goes on to explain that he exchanged the Springfields with
                Captain Jones of the Macedonian for the Tower muskets taken with the
                ship.

                He continues, the Tower Muskets "are not in the order I would wish
                them, they are old and much worn, however I prefer them to the
                American Muskets"

                He was not sure how long Captain Jones would allow the exchange to
                continue so he asked the commandant to forward 40 Tower Muskets as
                soon as possible.

                The one drawback was that the Marine Corps had to purchase differnt
                dlocks for their Cartouches, different size bayonet scabbards and
                Sgts were often issued Bullet moulds. The Marines also, at times
                when there was a possiblity of a "mixed musket unit",just issued
                standard American rounds which the men found quite easy and quick to
                load.

                Regards
                Colin



                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, BritcomHMP@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > In a message dated 3/26/08 12:55:00 PM, usmarine1814@... writes:
                >
                >
                > > As an addendum...For each of those battles were the US Marines
                Fought
                > > Brown Bess was firing back at her countrymen
                > >
                >
                > --------------------
                >
                > Colin, it must say something about the inteligence of a unit when
                they
                > recognize the superiority of the oponants weapon! :-)
                >
                > Cheers
                >
                > Tim
                >
                >
                >
                > Timothy Pickles
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > **************
                > Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
                > Home.
                >
                > (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?
                ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • John Ogden
                And the brothers metaphor is amazingly apt: as children my brother and I fought like the proverbial cats and dogs (which is why I still need to have a
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 27, 2008
                  And the "brothers" metaphor is amazingly apt: as children my brother and I
                  fought like the proverbial cats and dogs (which is why I still need to have
                  a root-canalled tooth re-bleached every five years or so), but now it's
                  pretty much us against the world.

                  On 3/26/08, suthren@... <suthren@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > John is quite right. Yet as someone has once said, the myths of what
                  > happened often are of greater importance than the realities of what
                  > happened. I believe it was quite important for the people of the young
                  > American republic to earnestly believe that they had 'defeated' several
                  > major British attempts at gaining ascendancy over them (at Plattsburgh,
                  > Baltimore and New Orleans)and what this meant to self-respect as a nation.
                  > The reality that the RN was bringing the US to a state of bankruptcy and
                  > that national ruin loomed ahead is forgotten. Similarly, the Canadian
                  > civilian population looked at the "defeats" of all (except Harrison's plunge
                  > into Ontario, which retired immediately after killing Tecumseth) American
                  > invasion attempts as defining moments in their own self-awareness: status as
                  > an independent nation came to Canada later---being part of the British
                  > Empire was not that bad a deal---but from 1814 onward, they at least knew
                  > who they weren't, and believed they had won that seperate identity and right
                  > to evolve as a separate people on the battlefield. That the principal share
                  > of the fighting in defence of Canada was done by British troops and warrior
                  > Indian allies has equally been forgotten.
                  >
                  > Truth be told, it is a tragedy that the war ever took place at all,
                  > because we are brothers and cousins if ever nations were. And our lads fight
                  > beside one another in Afghanistan as proud evidence of that. But in our 1812
                  > hobby we can commemorate a common honour/honor in the sincere belief that,
                  > yes, we both "won"---because ultimately, an unshakeable friendship won.
                  >
                  > Vic Suthren
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: John Ogden
                  > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 7:19 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] Beating her again and again...
                  >
                  > All,
                  > As an American whose family has been here since well before the
                  > Declaration of Independence (read as "very American"), I would argue that
                  > in
                  > regards to the War of 1812 there were no clear-cut "winners" in the usual
                  > meaning of the word. In the context of this little spat amongst the
                  > English-speaking nations, "victory" and "defeat" are highly relative and
                  > subjective terms.
                  >
                  > On 3/26/08, suthren@... <suthren%40magma.ca> <suthren@...<suthren%40magma.ca>>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Partial Listing
                  > > Engagements Won (Or Lost) by Brown Bess in North America
                  > > 1812-1815
                  > >
                  > > Lost
                  > >
                  > > New Orleans
                  > > Plattsburgh
                  > > Baltimore
                  > > Chippawa
                  > > Moraviantown (the Thames)
                  > > Fort Stephenson
                  > > York
                  > > Fort George
                  > >
                  > > Won
                  > >
                  > > Bladensburg/Washington
                  > > Detroit
                  > > Queenston Heights
                  > > Stoney Creek
                  > > Lacolle Mill
                  > > Crysler's Farm
                  > > Chateauguay
                  > > Beaver Dams
                  > > Fort Mackinac
                  > > Prairie du Chien
                  > > Oswego
                  > > Fort Niagara
                  > >
                  > > Disputed
                  > >
                  > > Lundy's Lane
                  > > Sackets Harbor
                  > >
                  > > As said, a partial list only. Much honour/honor on both sides. But 'beat
                  > > her again and again'? I don't think so....
                  > >
                  > > Vic Suthren
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > --
                  > John J. Ogden
                  > Hanley School of Law
                  > Duquesne University
                  > Class of 2011
                  >
                  > "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
                  > in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
                  > particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James
                  > Madison, June 20, 1785
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  --
                  John J. Ogden
                  Hanley School of Law
                  Duquesne University
                  Class of 2011

                  "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
                  in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
                  particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James
                  Madison, June 20, 1785


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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