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Re: Some Different Perspectives on who "won" the War of 1812

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  • Jim Yaworsky
    Jim interesting point you have raised. I wonder though if we should break it down into many smaller facts like this, I use hockey to explain what I mean ...
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 20 11:54 AM
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      Jim interesting point you have raised. I wonder though if we should
      break it down into many smaller facts like this, I use hockey to
      explain what I mean ...

      The team your playing scores 6 goals on your goaltender in the first
      six shots,...which takes only five minutes of the first period...you
      pull the goalie in exchange for your backup... He comes in and
      stonewalls the other team the rest of the game... your first line
      scores two goals but the other lines come up empty. So let's break it
      down ... you lose 6-2 but the back-up goalie played great! so he wins,
      your first line scored 2 goals so they win because the other lines on
      your team did'nt score. Etc etc etc

      I guess one could break things down into many, many little side
      issues but like i said at the beginning I wonder if we should.

      Rob Taylor
      Upper Canada

      Jim responds: actually, I think you have reinforced the point I was trying to make.

      A war that rages over an entire continent is obviously more complicated than a hockey game, or even a baseball game [ ;.)] The "team", whether that of the U.S. or that of the Anglo-Canadian-Natives, hardly has the clearly-defined goals and expectations of a sports team; and instead of a single coach, you have inter-allied & inter-service rivalries to contend with, etc etc etc.

      But even allowing for the vastly more complicated nature of a war as opposed to a hockey game, your analysis of what went on at the hockey game actually was far more informative to me than just saying "team "a" won, 6-2"....
    • Rob Taylor
      Jim wrote A war that rages over an entire continent is obviously more complicated than a hockey game, or even a baseball game [ ;.)] The team , whether that
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 20 1:33 PM
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        Jim wrote
        A war that rages over an entire continent is obviously more
        complicated than a hockey game, or even a baseball game [ ;.)] The
        "team", whether that of the U.S. or that of the
        Anglo-Canadian-Natives, hardly has the clearly-defined goals and
        expectations of a sports team; and instead of a single coach, you have
        inter-allied & inter-service rivalries to contend with, etc etc etc.

        Maybe more complicated but the goals of the U.S. were clearly defined,
        to take Canada and this would be victory much in the same way one wins
        a game. I'm surprised you did not catch my meaning.

        Jim wrote
        But even allowing for the vastly more complicated nature of a war as
        opposed to a hockey game, your analysis of what went on at the hockey
        game actually was far more informative to me than just saying "team
        "a" won, 6-2"....

        And a large part of it had nothing to do with the games final result,
        which was the point I was trying to make. I'll put in better terms
        next time.
        ==
        War of 1812 Website: http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/
      • Jim Yaworsky
        From: Rob Taylor Rob wrote but the goals of the U.S. were clearly defined, to take Canada and this would be victory much in the
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 20 2:24 PM
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          From: Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@...>

          Rob wrote
          "but the goals of the U.S. were clearly defined, to take Canada and this would be victory much in the same way one wins a game. I'm surprised you did not catch my meaning."
          Jim now replies: actually, I did take your meaning, but from what I'm hearing from our U.S. friends, and from what I've read, the goals of the U.S. were a lot wider than just taking Canada, and some of those other goals were more important to them...and in their opinion, were achieved. Hence, they legitimately are of the opinion that they won!
          Jim wrote: But even allowing for the vastly more complicated nature of a war as opposed to a hockey game, your analysis of what went on at the hockey game actually was far more informative to me than just saying "team "a" won, 6-2"....
          Rob replied: And a large part of it had nothing to do with the games final result, which was the point I was trying to make. I'll put in better terms next time.
          Jim now replies: actually, again, I understood the point you were making, I guess the point I was making was that I still found the "large part of it [that] had nothing to do with the game's final result" to be very interesting & perhaps helps explain why the game turned out the way it did; from a reenactor's point of view, we're supposed to be recreating conditions in the war, 'cause we don't know how it's going to turn out yet, so it's this "other information" that is perhaps more useful to us than the "final score".
          Lest anyone think me not a loyal Canadian, from my personal perspective, I think we won the war, because the survival of the British colonies so they could evolve in to Canada was the most important result of the War - to me. But this doesn't mean that we can't attempt to understand & respect the U.S. perspective & recognize that it too is valid.
        • Rob Taylor
          ... perspective, I think we won the war, because the survival of the British colonies so they could evolve in to Canada was the most important result of the
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 20 4:46 PM
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            Jim wrote:
            > Lest anyone think me not a loyal Canadian, from my personal
            perspective, I think we won the war, because the survival of the
            British colonies so they could evolve in to Canada was the most
            important result of the War - to me. But this doesn't mean that we
            can't attempt to understand & respect the U.S. perspective & recognize
            that it too is valid.

            Rob wrote:
            Yes Jim I will agree with that also, and I am attempting to
            understand & respect the U.S. perspective. I just as of yet have not
            understood it with the facts I have uncovered ... but I will continue
            to look.
            ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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            > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
            hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the
            fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
            >

            ==
            War of 1812 Website: http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/
          • Paul W. Schulz
            ... From: IX Regt. To: WarOf1812@onelist.com Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 3:39 AM Subject: [WarOf1812]
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 20 9:14 PM
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              -----Original Message-----
              From: IX Regt. <ixreg@...>
              To: WarOf1812@onelist.com <WarOf1812@onelist.com>
              Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 3:39 AM
              Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Some Different Perspectives on who "won" the War of
              1812


              >From: "IX Regt." <ixreg@...>
              >
              >
              >>From: Jim Yaworsky <yawors1@...>
              >>
              >>May I suggest in our look at who "won" the War of 1812, that we recognize
              that
              >>great nations rarely act for simple reasons, because they have so many
              "special
              >>interest groups" and competing priorities trying to dictate their
              policies. So
              >>perhaps we should be breaking down the "who won" issue in to smaller
              pieces.
              >>
              >>I do think that this discussion, because it is bringing out all sorts of
              >>interesting facts & viewpoints, is a lot of fun. As a Canadian, I still
              put my
              >>faith in the Queen, but I also like my American neighbours & I certainly
              don't
              >>intend to get upset or insulted over anything anyone on this List might
              say
              >>about who won or lost the War of 1812 - there's been a few other
              intervening
              >>events since then, like WW's 1 & 2, that have created bonds of friendship
              &
              >>respect between us all that are rather stronger than hurt feelings from
              1812-15,
              >>I would think!
              >>
              >>Jim Yaworsky, reenactor (i.e. part-time pretend member) of: 41st British
              R.of
              >>F. infantryman,
              >
              >>( i.e. I'm doing everybody but the savages! Guess this
              >>means I personally won!!!)
              >>
              >Jim,
              >
              >Many thanks for your analysis, I enjoyed it a lot, but have to say that
              >I still don't think I'm ever going to the hang of what it was really
              >about. Just a feature of the age when it was necessary to wars
              >occasionally, maybe that's it!
              >
              >P**
              >>
              >>Don't feel to bad neither did most of those who actually fought it. Only a
              few politicians ever know all the reasons why, and that applies to any war.
              As we a reenacting simple soldiers may be we should stick with that as
              thinking like apolitician will induce headaches and lead to eventual brain
              damage.
              Paul W. Schulz
              >>
              >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >>Have you seen our new web site? http://www.onelist.com
              >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >>The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
              square
              >>miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
              square
              >>miles...
              >
              >--
              >IX Regt.
              >
              >------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >We have a new web site! http://www.onelist.com
              >------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
              square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
              square miles...
            • mmathews@xxxx.xxxxxx.xxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
              ... (snip excellent analysis) My compliments, nicely stated. Michael Michael Mathews -- ITV Specialist Winona State University Voice: (507) 285-7585 Fax:
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 22 6:33 AM
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                >From: Jim Yaworsky <yawors1@...>

                (snip excellent analysis)

                My compliments, nicely stated.

                Michael

                Michael Mathews -- ITV Specialist
                Winona State University
                Voice: (507) 285-7585 Fax: (507) 280-5568
                ------------------------------
                "Loyalty to pertified opinion never broke a chain
                or freed a human soul" -- Mark Twain
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