Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Some Different Perspectives on who "won" the War of 1812

Expand Messages
  • Rob Taylor
    Jim interesting point you have raised. I wonder though if we should break it down into many smaller facts like this, I use hockey to explain what I mean ...
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 20, 1999
    • 0 Attachment
      Jim interesting point you have raised. I wonder though if we should
      break it down into many smaller facts like this, I use hockey to
      explain what I mean ...

      The team your playing scores 6 goals on your goaltender in the first
      six shots,...which takes only five minutes of the first period...you
      pull the goalie in exchange for your backup... He comes in and
      stonewalls the other team the rest of the game... your first line
      scores two goals but the other lines come up empty. So let's break it
      down ... you lose 6-2 but the back-up goalie played great! so he wins,
      your first line scored 2 goals so they win because the other lines on
      your team did'nt score. The other team that scores 6 goals in the
      first five minutes of the game did'nt do much for the rest of the
      game...hmmm not bad but they could have played better eh? And the fans
      in the stands... well they don't know what to think, things started
      bad but near the end things were looking up. The Ref, did'nt have to
      call a single penalty so no one booed him all game, he must feel good
      about that eh? (lol) The arena box office overflowing with ticket
      sales ect. ect. ect.

      I guess one could break things down into many, many little side
      issues but like i said at the beginning I wonder if we should.

      For people outside of Canada feel free to change the sport.
      Rob Taylor
      Upper Canada







      ==
      War of 1812 Website: http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/
    • Jim Yaworsky
      Jim interesting point you have raised. I wonder though if we should break it down into many smaller facts like this, I use hockey to explain what I mean ...
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 20, 1999
      • 0 Attachment
        Jim interesting point you have raised. I wonder though if we should
        break it down into many smaller facts like this, I use hockey to
        explain what I mean ...

        The team your playing scores 6 goals on your goaltender in the first
        six shots,...which takes only five minutes of the first period...you
        pull the goalie in exchange for your backup... He comes in and
        stonewalls the other team the rest of the game... your first line
        scores two goals but the other lines come up empty. So let's break it
        down ... you lose 6-2 but the back-up goalie played great! so he wins,
        your first line scored 2 goals so they win because the other lines on
        your team did'nt score. Etc etc etc

        I guess one could break things down into many, many little side
        issues but like i said at the beginning I wonder if we should.

        Rob Taylor
        Upper Canada

        Jim responds: actually, I think you have reinforced the point I was trying to make.

        A war that rages over an entire continent is obviously more complicated than a hockey game, or even a baseball game [ ;.)] The "team", whether that of the U.S. or that of the Anglo-Canadian-Natives, hardly has the clearly-defined goals and expectations of a sports team; and instead of a single coach, you have inter-allied & inter-service rivalries to contend with, etc etc etc.

        But even allowing for the vastly more complicated nature of a war as opposed to a hockey game, your analysis of what went on at the hockey game actually was far more informative to me than just saying "team "a" won, 6-2"....
      • Rob Taylor
        Jim wrote A war that rages over an entire continent is obviously more complicated than a hockey game, or even a baseball game [ ;.)] The team , whether that
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 20, 1999
        • 0 Attachment
          Jim wrote
          A war that rages over an entire continent is obviously more
          complicated than a hockey game, or even a baseball game [ ;.)] The
          "team", whether that of the U.S. or that of the
          Anglo-Canadian-Natives, hardly has the clearly-defined goals and
          expectations of a sports team; and instead of a single coach, you have
          inter-allied & inter-service rivalries to contend with, etc etc etc.

          Maybe more complicated but the goals of the U.S. were clearly defined,
          to take Canada and this would be victory much in the same way one wins
          a game. I'm surprised you did not catch my meaning.

          Jim wrote
          But even allowing for the vastly more complicated nature of a war as
          opposed to a hockey game, your analysis of what went on at the hockey
          game actually was far more informative to me than just saying "team
          "a" won, 6-2"....

          And a large part of it had nothing to do with the games final result,
          which was the point I was trying to make. I'll put in better terms
          next time.
          ==
          War of 1812 Website: http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/
        • Jim Yaworsky
          From: Rob Taylor Rob wrote but the goals of the U.S. were clearly defined, to take Canada and this would be victory much in the
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 20, 1999
          • 0 Attachment
            From: Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@...>

            Rob wrote
            "but the goals of the U.S. were clearly defined, to take Canada and this would be victory much in the same way one wins a game. I'm surprised you did not catch my meaning."
            Jim now replies: actually, I did take your meaning, but from what I'm hearing from our U.S. friends, and from what I've read, the goals of the U.S. were a lot wider than just taking Canada, and some of those other goals were more important to them...and in their opinion, were achieved. Hence, they legitimately are of the opinion that they won!
            Jim wrote: But even allowing for the vastly more complicated nature of a war as opposed to a hockey game, your analysis of what went on at the hockey game actually was far more informative to me than just saying "team "a" won, 6-2"....
            Rob replied: And a large part of it had nothing to do with the games final result, which was the point I was trying to make. I'll put in better terms next time.
            Jim now replies: actually, again, I understood the point you were making, I guess the point I was making was that I still found the "large part of it [that] had nothing to do with the game's final result" to be very interesting & perhaps helps explain why the game turned out the way it did; from a reenactor's point of view, we're supposed to be recreating conditions in the war, 'cause we don't know how it's going to turn out yet, so it's this "other information" that is perhaps more useful to us than the "final score".
            Lest anyone think me not a loyal Canadian, from my personal perspective, I think we won the war, because the survival of the British colonies so they could evolve in to Canada was the most important result of the War - to me. But this doesn't mean that we can't attempt to understand & respect the U.S. perspective & recognize that it too is valid.
          • Rob Taylor
            ... perspective, I think we won the war, because the survival of the British colonies so they could evolve in to Canada was the most important result of the
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 20, 1999
            • 0 Attachment
              Jim wrote:
              > Lest anyone think me not a loyal Canadian, from my personal
              perspective, I think we won the war, because the survival of the
              British colonies so they could evolve in to Canada was the most
              important result of the War - to me. But this doesn't mean that we
              can't attempt to understand & respect the U.S. perspective & recognize
              that it too is valid.

              Rob wrote:
              Yes Jim I will agree with that also, and I am attempting to
              understand & respect the U.S. perspective. I just as of yet have not
              understood it with the facts I have uncovered ... but I will continue
              to look.
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > New hobbies? New interests? Sign up for a new ONElist community.
              > http://www.onelist.com
              >
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
              hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the
              fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
              >

              ==
              War of 1812 Website: http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/
            • Paul W. Schulz
              ... From: IX Regt. To: WarOf1812@onelist.com Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 3:39 AM Subject: [WarOf1812]
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 20, 1999
              • 0 Attachment
                -----Original Message-----
                From: IX Regt. <ixreg@...>
                To: WarOf1812@onelist.com <WarOf1812@onelist.com>
                Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 3:39 AM
                Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Some Different Perspectives on who "won" the War of
                1812


                >From: "IX Regt." <ixreg@...>
                >
                >
                >>From: Jim Yaworsky <yawors1@...>
                >>
                >>May I suggest in our look at who "won" the War of 1812, that we recognize
                that
                >>great nations rarely act for simple reasons, because they have so many
                "special
                >>interest groups" and competing priorities trying to dictate their
                policies. So
                >>perhaps we should be breaking down the "who won" issue in to smaller
                pieces.
                >>
                >>I do think that this discussion, because it is bringing out all sorts of
                >>interesting facts & viewpoints, is a lot of fun. As a Canadian, I still
                put my
                >>faith in the Queen, but I also like my American neighbours & I certainly
                don't
                >>intend to get upset or insulted over anything anyone on this List might
                say
                >>about who won or lost the War of 1812 - there's been a few other
                intervening
                >>events since then, like WW's 1 & 2, that have created bonds of friendship
                &
                >>respect between us all that are rather stronger than hurt feelings from
                1812-15,
                >>I would think!
                >>
                >>Jim Yaworsky, reenactor (i.e. part-time pretend member) of: 41st British
                R.of
                >>F. infantryman,
                >
                >>( i.e. I'm doing everybody but the savages! Guess this
                >>means I personally won!!!)
                >>
                >Jim,
                >
                >Many thanks for your analysis, I enjoyed it a lot, but have to say that
                >I still don't think I'm ever going to the hang of what it was really
                >about. Just a feature of the age when it was necessary to wars
                >occasionally, maybe that's it!
                >
                >P**
                >>
                >>Don't feel to bad neither did most of those who actually fought it. Only a
                few politicians ever know all the reasons why, and that applies to any war.
                As we a reenacting simple soldiers may be we should stick with that as
                thinking like apolitician will induce headaches and lead to eventual brain
                damage.
                Paul W. Schulz
                >>
                >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >>Have you seen our new web site? http://www.onelist.com
                >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >>The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                square
                >>miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                square
                >>miles...
                >
                >--
                >IX Regt.
                >
                >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >We have a new web site! http://www.onelist.com
                >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                square miles...
              • mmathews@xxxx.xxxxxx.xxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                ... (snip excellent analysis) My compliments, nicely stated. Michael Michael Mathews -- ITV Specialist Winona State University Voice: (507) 285-7585 Fax:
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 22, 1999
                • 0 Attachment
                  >From: Jim Yaworsky <yawors1@...>

                  (snip excellent analysis)

                  My compliments, nicely stated.

                  Michael

                  Michael Mathews -- ITV Specialist
                  Winona State University
                  Voice: (507) 285-7585 Fax: (507) 280-5568
                  ------------------------------
                  "Loyalty to pertified opinion never broke a chain
                  or freed a human soul" -- Mark Twain
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.