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Mr. Sigler

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  • Larry Lozon
    Mr. Sigler Sir, May I suggest you search the archives of this Yahoo Group, there you will find a lot of information regarding the War of 1812 Then visit your
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 22, 2007
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      Mr. Sigler

      Sir, May I suggest you search the archives of this Yahoo Group, there
      you will find a lot of information regarding the War of 1812

      Then visit your local book store and read up on the War.

      If you Google the War of 1812 you will have a treasure trove of super
      books to read.

      Instead of asking for help with your book list . . . do some of the
      ground work.

      The war of 1812 was won by no one,
      the borders went back to where they were.
      Everything went back to the way it was before the war

      There was a loser and that was the Natives (Indians) check the
      archives to find out why . . .

      Detroit was captured by Crown Forces (British, Canadian, Militias,
      Allies)
      New Orleans was won by the USA Forces
      Both sides had great leaders

      We have to get over it!

      If would have . . . could have . . . should have . . .
      never happened.
      Read the accounts of both USA and Crown and make a decision

      To jump into a conversation . . . as a battle . . .
      without ammunition . . .
      your own words, "my lack of knowing"
      is very dangerous and it only proves one thing . . . *

      As one human being to another . . . research the War of 1812 before
      you criticize any of its participants and then you can back up your
      statements.

      "I do not see your hero as the giant of military leadership"

      Sir, Wellington, Napoleon, Hitler, Churchill, Scott, Harrison,
      Jackson were all great military leaders, some more than others but
      you cannot take their military leadership away from them . . .
      again it only proves one thing . . . *


      You have been asked by Mr. Fournier, Moderator of this Yahoo Group to
      quit this thread,
      I, Larry Lozon, Moderator, also ask you to quit this thread.
      The only other to do so will be Mr. Yaworsky, Group Owner,
      and with that you risk being denied access to this group.

      Without prejudice
      Larry Lozon
    • David Sigler
      LOL...........I m not the one taking this seriously and yet I am the one being censored for having an opinion? I think some of you need to reread the
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 22, 2007
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        LOL...........I'm not the one taking this seriously and yet I am the one being censored for having an opinion? I think some of you need to reread the discussion and see who was insulting who. I will assume that Sir. Tim is the real moderator in this group and leave it at that as the reason for my leaving; By the way, I never said Wellington wasn't good, just not as great as some would believe. I'll leave this group on my own accord; laughing all the way at the childish behavior of it all..... and at the ego of some....LOL!
        david a sigler


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Larry Lozon
        To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: 11/22/2007 1:49:41 PM
        Subject: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler


        Mr. Sigler

        Sir, May I suggest you search the archives of this Yahoo Group, there
        you will find a lot of information regarding the War of 1812

        Then visit your local book store and read up on the War.

        If you Google the War of 1812 you will have a treasure trove of super
        books to read.

        Instead of asking for help with your book list . . . do some of the
        ground work.

        The war of 1812 was won by no one,
        the borders went back to where they were.
        Everything went back to the way it was before the war

        There was a loser and that was the Natives (Indians) check the
        archives to find out why . . .

        Detroit was captured by Crown Forces (British, Canadian, Militias,
        Allies)
        New Orleans was won by the USA Forces
        Both sides had great leaders

        We have to get over it!

        If would have . . . could have . . . should have . . .
        never happened.
        Read the accounts of both USA and Crown and make a decision

        To jump into a conversation . . . as a battle . . .
        without ammunition . . .
        your own words, "my lack of knowing"
        is very dangerous and it only proves one thing . . . *

        As one human being to another . . . research the War of 1812 before
        you criticize any of its participants and then you can back up your
        statements.

        "I do not see your hero as the giant of military leadership"

        Sir, Wellington, Napoleon, Hitler, Churchill, Scott, Harrison,
        Jackson were all great military leaders, some more than others but
        you cannot take their military leadership away from them . . .
        again it only proves one thing . . . *

        You have been asked by Mr. Fournier, Moderator of this Yahoo Group to
        quit this thread,
        I, Larry Lozon, Moderator, also ask you to quit this thread.
        The only other to do so will be Mr. Yaworsky, Group Owner,
        and with that you risk being denied access to this group.

        Without prejudice
        Larry Lozon




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bob Dorian
        David, I would concur with Mr. Pickles, that if you want to know more about Wellington, you should read Wellington The Years of the Sword by Elizabeth
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 22, 2007
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          David,

          I would concur with Mr. Pickles, that if you want to know more about Wellington, you should read "Wellington The Years of the Sword" by Elizabeth Longford.

          For an American viewpoint, you might find "Wellington" by Philip Guedalla [1931].

          Regards,

          Bob Dorian

          David Sigler <dasigler@...> wrote:
          LOL...........I'm not the one taking this seriously and yet I am the one being censored for having an opinion? I think some of you need to reread the discussion and see who was insulting who. I will assume that Sir. Tim is the real moderator in this group and leave it at that as the reason for my leaving; By the way, I never said Wellington wasn't good, just not as great as some would believe. I'll leave this group on my own accord; laughing all the way at the childish behavior of it all..... and at the ego of some....LOL!
          david a sigler

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Larry Lozon
          To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: 11/22/2007 1:49:41 PM
          Subject: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler

          Mr. Sigler

          Sir, May I suggest you search the archives of this Yahoo Group, there
          you will find a lot of information regarding the War of 1812

          Then visit your local book store and read up on the War.

          If you Google the War of 1812 you will have a treasure trove of super
          books to read.

          Instead of asking for help with your book list . . . do some of the
          ground work.

          The war of 1812 was won by no one,
          the borders went back to where they were.
          Everything went back to the way it was before the war

          There was a loser and that was the Natives (Indians) check the
          archives to find out why . . .

          Detroit was captured by Crown Forces (British, Canadian, Militias,
          Allies)
          New Orleans was won by the USA Forces
          Both sides had great leaders

          We have to get over it!

          If would have . . . could have . . . should have . . .
          never happened.
          Read the accounts of both USA and Crown and make a decision

          To jump into a conversation . . . as a battle . . .
          without ammunition . . .
          your own words, "my lack of knowing"
          is very dangerous and it only proves one thing . . . *

          As one human being to another . . . research the War of 1812 before
          you criticize any of its participants and then you can back up your
          statements.

          "I do not see your hero as the giant of military leadership"

          Sir, Wellington, Napoleon, Hitler, Churchill, Scott, Harrison,
          Jackson were all great military leaders, some more than others but
          you cannot take their military leadership away from them . . .
          again it only proves one thing . . . *

          You have been asked by Mr. Fournier, Moderator of this Yahoo Group to
          quit this thread,
          I, Larry Lozon, Moderator, also ask you to quit this thread.
          The only other to do so will be Mr. Yaworsky, Group Owner,
          and with that you risk being denied access to this group.

          Without prejudice
          Larry Lozon

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Sigler
          I believe that was all I was asking in the first place; further infomation on the subject. david a sigler ... From: Bob Dorian To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 22, 2007
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            I believe that was all I was asking in the first place; further infomation on the subject.
            david a sigler


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Bob Dorian
            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: 11/22/2007 2:47:13 PM
            Subject: RE: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler


            David,

            I would concur with Mr. Pickles, that if you want to know more about Wellington, you should read "Wellington The Years of the Sword" by Elizabeth Longford.

            For an American viewpoint, you might find "Wellington" by Philip Guedalla [1931].

            Regards,

            Bob Dorian

            David Sigler <dasigler@...> wrote:
            LOL...........I'm not the one taking this seriously and yet I am the one being censored for having an opinion? I think some of you need to reread the discussion and see who was insulting who. I will assume that Sir. Tim is the real moderator in this group and leave it at that as the reason for my leaving; By the way, I never said Wellington wasn't good, just not as great as some would believe. I'll leave this group on my own accord; laughing all the way at the childish behavior of it all..... and at the ego of some....LOL!
            david a sigler

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Larry Lozon
            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: 11/22/2007 1:49:41 PM
            Subject: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler

            Mr. Sigler

            Sir, May I suggest you search the archives of this Yahoo Group, there
            you will find a lot of information regarding the War of 1812

            Then visit your local book store and read up on the War.

            If you Google the War of 1812 you will have a treasure trove of super
            books to read.

            Instead of asking for help with your book list . . . do some of the
            ground work.

            The war of 1812 was won by no one,
            the borders went back to where they were.
            Everything went back to the way it was before the war

            There was a loser and that was the Natives (Indians) check the
            archives to find out why . . .

            Detroit was captured by Crown Forces (British, Canadian, Militias,
            Allies)
            New Orleans was won by the USA Forces
            Both sides had great leaders

            We have to get over it!

            If would have . . . could have . . . should have . . .
            never happened.
            Read the accounts of both USA and Crown and make a decision

            To jump into a conversation . . . as a battle . . .
            without ammunition . . .
            your own words, "my lack of knowing"
            is very dangerous and it only proves one thing . . . *

            As one human being to another . . . research the War of 1812 before
            you criticize any of its participants and then you can back up your
            statements.

            "I do not see your hero as the giant of military leadership"

            Sir, Wellington, Napoleon, Hitler, Churchill, Scott, Harrison,
            Jackson were all great military leaders, some more than others but
            you cannot take their military leadership away from them . . .
            again it only proves one thing . . . *

            You have been asked by Mr. Fournier, Moderator of this Yahoo Group to
            quit this thread,
            I, Larry Lozon, Moderator, also ask you to quit this thread.
            The only other to do so will be Mr. Yaworsky, Group Owner,
            and with that you risk being denied access to this group.

            Without prejudice
            Larry Lozon

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James Yaworsky
            ... the one being censored for having an opinion? I think some of you need to reread the discussion and see who was insulting who. I will assume that Sir. Tim
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 22, 2007
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              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "David Sigler" <dasigler@...> wrote:
              >
              > LOL...........I'm not the one taking this seriously and yet I am
              the one being censored for having an opinion? I think some of you need
              to reread the discussion and see who was insulting who. I will assume
              that Sir. Tim is the real moderator in this group and leave it at that
              as the reason for my leaving; By the way, I never said Wellington
              wasn't good, just not as great as some would believe. I'll leave this
              group on my own accord; laughing all the way at the childish behavior
              of it all..... and at the ego of some....LOL!
              >

              david a sigler

              Mr. Sigler:

              You're not taking this seriously, but you are also not hesitating to
              express what appear to be ill-informed opinions about one of the
              greatest national figures in the history of the United Kingdom - and
              Canada, too (just try and find a major Canadian city that does not
              have a "Wellington" Street, Avenue, or Boulevard - and it's always a
              major street, to boot...).

              To put it in to context, try this on for size: "although I haven't
              really read much about him, it seems to me that George Washington was
              just a greedy slave-owning self-aggrandizing wannabe-aristocrat, who
              didn't hesitate to let lots of other people die from his mistakes
              while he bumbled around trying to get a handle on being a general".
              Maybe you're laughing as you read this, but I'm guessing any good
              American, no matter how much he or she might rationally see that my
              comments are not meant seriously, is still, on some gut level,
              offended by them.

              In short, you are maligning the memory of a great man who is a
              national hero for many of this list's members. People are not amused.

              You are also evidently not prepared to "take seriously" the opinions
              of people like Tim Pickles, who has spent decades in studying in depth
              the British army, the War of 1812, and... the Duke of Wellington.
              Frankly, I, although but a casual acquaintance of Tim, am personally
              offended at the ill-informed attitude you have displayed towards him.
              He is one of the great and valued leaders and gentlemen of the 1812
              reenacting time period, and I know that this is an opinion held by all
              knowledgeable members of this list. Tim is a recognized authority on
              the Battle of New Orleans, where his even-handed analysis gives full
              credit to what Andrew Jackson was able to accomplish. His is an
              informed, balanced, and sympathetic view of *both* sides of the
              conflict.

              Reading the message sequence, it is my opinion that Tim was attempting
              to respond to your messages in a helpful manner. The conclusion seems
              inevitable that you weren't really interested in receiving any
              information that was contrary to your preconceived opinions.

              Throwing out vague generalizations that are guaranteed to offend
              national sensibilities is a sure-fire recipe for starting flame wars.

              Moderators don't like flame wars.

              You have joined a well-established list that has many experts as
              members and where, for the most part, rational discussion is carried
              on in a civilized and respectful manner.

              If you are willing to contribute solid facts rather than ill informed
              opinions, and you desire to learn something on some topics from people
              who are better informed on them than you are, then hang around.

              If you are already convinced you know it all, then I guess this list
              is rather superfluous to your requirements, and I agree that the
              sooner you leave the better.

              In the interim, to prevent you sticking your foot in your mouth yet
              again, I have put your posting privileges on to moderated status.

              Jim Yaworsky
              Moderator
            • Ray Hobbs
              Jim: Please, do not forget that amazing and wonderful and fantastic and great and ..and... Institution, the WELLINGTON BREWERY of Guelph. Just thought I d get
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 22, 2007
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                Jim:
                Please, do not forget that amazing and wonderful and fantastic and
                great and ..and... Institution, the WELLINGTON BREWERY of Guelph.
                Just thought I'd get that reference in.
                And Sigler...who is Sigler? 'Nuff said.
                Yr H & OS
                Ray H
                41st Regt.

                PS: Great response to some of the recent idiocies.

                On 22-Nov-07, at 4:42 PM, James Yaworsky wrote:
                >
                > Mr. Sigler:
                >
                > You're not taking this seriously, but you are also not hesitating to
                > express what appear to be ill-informed opinions about one of the
                > greatest national figures in the history of the United Kingdom - and
                > Canada, too (just try and find a major Canadian city that does not
                > have a "Wellington" Street, Avenue, or Boulevard - and it's always a
                > major street, to boot...).
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • HQ93rd@aol.com
                http://curezone.com/forums/troll.asp An Internet troll is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 29, 2007
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                  http://curezone.com/forums/troll.asp
                  " An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.
                   Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for their bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are hurting real people. To them, other Internet users are not quite human but are a kind of digital abstraction. As a result, they feel no sorrow whatsoever for the pain they inflict. Indeed, the greater the suffering they cause, the greater their 'achievement' (as they see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net allows trolls to flourish.
                   Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You cannot negotiate with them; you cannot cause them to feel shame or compassion; you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. For some reason, trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social responsibility.
                   Perhaps this sounds inconceivable. You may think, "Surely there is something I can write that will change them." But a true troll can not be changed by mere words.

                   Why Does it Matter?

                  Some people — particularly those who have been online for years — are not upset by trolls and consider them an inevitable hazard of using the net. As the saying goes, "You can't have a picnic without ants."
                   It would be nice if everybody was so easy-going, but the sad fact is that trolls do discourage people. Established posters may leave a message board because of the arguments that trolls ignite, and lurkers (people who read but do not post) may decide that they do not want to expose themselves to abuse and thus never get involved.
                   Another problem is that the negative emotions stirred up by trolls leak over into other discussions. Normally affable people can become bitter after reading an angry interchange between a troll and his victims, and this can poison previously friendly interactions between long-time users.
                   Finally, trolls create a paranoid environment, such that a casual criticism by a new arrival can elicit a ferocious and inappropriate backlash.
                   The Internet is a wonderful resource which is breaking down barriers and stripping away prejudice. Trolls threaten our continued enjoyment of this beautiful forum for ideas.

                   What Can be Done about Trolls?

                  When you suspect that somebody is a troll, you might try responding with a polite, mild message to see if it's just somebody in a bad mood. Internet users sometimes let their passions get away from them when seated safely behind their keyboard. If you ignore their bluster and respond in a pleasant manner, they usually calm down.
                   However, if the person persists in being beastly, and seems to enjoy being unpleasant, the only effective position is summed up as follows:
                   The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls.
                   When you try to reason with a troll, he wins. When you insult a troll, he wins. When you scream at a troll, he wins. The only thing that trolls can't handle is being ignored.

                   What Not to Do

                  As already stated, it is futile to try to "cure" a troll of his obsession. But perhaps you simply cannot bear the hostile environment that the troll is creating and want to go away for a while.
                   If you do that, then for the sake of the others on the system, please do not post a dramatic "Goodbye!" message. This convinces the troll that he is winning the battle. There is, perhaps, no message you can write on a message system that is as damaging as an announcement that you are leaving because of the hostility that the troll has kindled.
                   If you feel you must say something, a discreet message to the system operator (and some of the others users, if you have their email addresses) is the best course of action. Incidentally, if you are writing the letter in an agitated state, it is a good idea to wait an hour and then give it one last review before you actually send it. That might spare you the pain of saying things that you don't really mean to people you like.

                   Impersonation

                  One technique used by trolls to generate chaos is to pretend to be a well-liked person. On some systems there is nothing to prevent somebody from signing your name to a distasteful message. On other systems the troll may have to be a bit more wiley, perhaps by replacing one character with another. Here are some examples of various spoofing gimmicks that could be used against a person named Brenda Q. O'Really:
                  Brenda Q. O"Really Brenda Q. 0'Really Brenda Q  O'Really
                  Brenda Q. O'Rea11y Bredna Q. O'Really 8renda Q. O'Really
                  Note: "Brenda Q. O'Really" is a made-up name used to illustrate spoofing and is not intended to refer to a particular person.

                   If you react with anger, the troll wins. So if you see a message impersonating you on a message board, simply write a follow-up reply entitled "That Wasn't Me" and type only this:
                   I did not write that message; it is a fake.
                   Of course, sometimes you will find that people who know you well have already identified the message as a fake and have tagged it as such. After all, one of the troll's goals is to make you look bad. If you have a good reputation, people will be tipped off if a message that you apparently wrote is completely out of character.
                   Trolls have been known to become so irritated at having their spoofs identified that they have learned to write in another person's style. They may end up writing an intelligent message that is indistinguishable from your own golden words. If that happens, you can always just let the post stand and take credit for it!
                   Trolls will also sometimes write a "That Wasn't Me" message after a genuine one, attempting to elicit a denial. There really is no reason to give him what he wants, since a "That Wasn't Me" warning merely reminds people to be skeptical. That is to say, it is of no real consequence if somebody isn't sure that you wrote a normal message, since in the long run it is the ideas that are important.

                   The Webmaster's Challenge

                  When trolls are ignored they step up their attacks, desperately seeking the attention they crave. Their messages become more and more foul, and they post ever more of them. Alternatively, they may protest that their right to free speech is being curtailed — more on this later.
                   The moderator of a message board may not be able to delete a troll's messages right away, but their job is made much harder if they also have to read numerous replies to trolls. They are also forced to decide whether or not to delete posts from well-meaning folks which have the unintended effect of encouraging the troll.
                   Some webmasters have to endure conscientious users telling them that they are "acting like dictators" and should never delete a single message. These people may be misinformed: they may have arrived at their opinion about a troll based on the messages they see, never realizing that the webmaster has already deleted his most horrific material. Please remember that a troll does have an alternative if he has something of value to say: there are services on the net that provide messaging systems free of charge. So the troll can set up his own message board, where he can make his own decisions about the kind of content he will tolerate.
                   Just how much can we expect of a webmaster when it comes to preserving the principles of free speech? Some trolls find sport in determining what the breaking point is for a particular message board operator. They might post a dozen messages, each of which contains 400 lines of the letter "J". That is a form of expression, to be sure, but would you consider it your duty to play host to such a person?
                   Perhaps the most difficult challenge for a webmaster is deciding whether to take steps against a troll that a few people find entertaining. Some trolls do have a creative spark and have chosen to squander it on being disruptive. There is a certain perverse pleasure in watching some of them. Ultimately, though, the webmaster has to decide if the troll actually cares about putting on a good show for the regular participants, or is simply playing to an audience of one — himself.

                   What about Free Speech?

                  When trolls find that their efforts are being successfully resisted, they often complain that their right to free speech is being infringed. Let us examine that claim.
                   While most people on the Internet are ardent defenders of free speech, it is not an absolute right; there are practical limitations. For example, you may not scream out "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, and you may not make jokes about bombs while waiting to board an airplane. We accept these limitations because we recognize that they serve a greater good.
                   Another useful example is the control of the radio frequency spectrum. You might wish to set up a powerful radio station to broadcast your ideas, but you cannot do so without applying for a license. Again, this is a practical limitation: if everybody broadcasted without restriction, the repercussions would be annoying at best and life-threatening at worst.
                   The radio example is helpful for another reason: with countless people having a legitimate need to use radio communications, it is important to ensure that nobody is 'monopolizing the channel'. There are only so many clear channels available in each frequency band and these must be shared.
                   When a troll attacks a message board, he generally posts a lot of messages. Even if his messages are not particularly inflammatory, they can be so numerous that they drown out the regular conversations (this is known as 'flooding'). Needless to say, no one person's opinions can be allowed to monopolize a channel.
                   The ultimate response to the 'free speech' argument is this: while we may have the right to say more or less whatever we want, we do not have the right to say it wherever we want. You may feel strongly about the fact that your neighbour has not mowed his lawn for two months, but you do not have the right to berate him in his own living room. Similarly, if a webmaster tells a troll that he is not welcome, the troll has no "right" to remain. This is particularly true on the numerous free communications services offered on the net. (On pay systems, the troll might be justified in asking for a refund.)

                   Why Do They Do It?

                  Affirmation.
                   Regular net users know how delightful it is when somebody responds to something they have written. It is a meeting of the minds, which is an intellectual thrill, but it is also an acknowledgement of one's value — and that can be a very satisfying emotional reward.
                   Trolls crave attention, and they care not whether it is positive or negative. They see the Internet as a mirror into which they can gaze in narcissistic rapture.
                   If you want a deeper analysis than that, perhaps a psychologist can shed some additional light on the matter.

                   Conclusion

                  Next time you are on a message board and you see a post by somebody whom you think is a troll, and you feel you must reply, simply write a follow-up message entitled "Troll Alert" and type only this:
                   The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls.
                   By posting such a message, you let the troll know that you know what he is, and that you are not going to get dragged into his twisted little hobby.
                   The Internet is a splendidly haphazard collection of both serious and silly material. Because it is so free, there are bound to be problems. I think that we can best enjoy it if we deal with everything that happens online with a wry grin and a ready shrug."






                   93rd SHRoFLHU
                  THE Thin Red Line
                  www.93rdhighlanders.com






                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: David Sigler <dasigler@...>
                  To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:35 pm
                  Subject: RE: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler










                  LOL...........I'm not the one taking this seriously and yet I am the one
                  being censored for having an opinion? I think some of you need to reread the
                  discussion and see who was insulting who. I will assume that Sir. Tim is the
                  real moderator in this group and leave it at that as the reason for my leaving;
                  By the way, I never said Wellington wasn't good, just not as great as some would
                  believe. I'll leave this group on my own accord; laughing all the way at the
                  childish behavior of it all..... and at the ego of some....LOL!

                  david a sigler


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Larry Lozon
                  To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: 11/22/2007 1:49:41 PM
                  Subject: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler


                  Mr. Sigler

                  Sir, May I suggest you search the archives of this Yahoo Group, there
                  you will find a lot of information regarding the War of 1812

                  Then visit your local book store and read up on the War.

                  If you Google the War of 1812 you will have a treasure trove of super
                  books to read.

                  Instead of asking for help with your book list . . . do some of the
                  ground work.

                  The war of 1812 was won by no one,
                  the borders went back to where they were.
                  Everything went back to the way it was before the war

                  There was a loser and that was the Natives (Indians) check the
                  archives to find out why . . .

                  Detroit was captured by Crown Forces (British, Canadian, Militias,
                  Allies)
                  New Orleans was won by the USA Forces
                  Both sides had great leaders

                  We have to get over it!

                  If would have . . . could have . . . should have . . .
                  never happened.
                  Read the accounts of both USA and Crown and make a decision

                  To jump into a conversation . . . as a battle . . .
                  without ammunition . . .
                  your own words, "my lack of knowing"
                  is very dangerous and it only proves one thing . . . *

                  As one human being to another . . . research the War of 1812 before
                  you criticize any of its participants and then you can back up your
                  statements.

                  "I do not see your hero as the giant of military leadership"

                  Sir, Wellington, Napoleon, Hitler, Churchill, Scott, Harrison,
                  Jackson were all great military leaders, some more than others but
                  you cannot take their military leadership away from them . . .
                  again it only proves one thing . . . *

                  You have been asked by Mr. Fournier, Moderator of this Yahoo Group to
                  quit this thread,
                  I, Larry Lozon, Moderator, also ask you to quit this thread.
                  The only other to do so will be Mr. Yaworsky, Group Owner,
                  and with that you risk being denied access to this group.

                  Without prejudice
                  Larry Lozon




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  War of 1812 Living History:
                  A wide-ranging information exchange
                  for all participants and supporters


                  Unit Contact information for North America:
                  Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                  http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                  American Forces Unit Listing
                  http://usforces1812.tripod.com

                  WAR OF 1812 EVENTS LIST:
                  http://royal.scots.tripod.com/warof1812eventslist
                  Yahoo! Groups Links









                  ________________________________________________________________________
                  More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David Sigler
                  LOL......from the Yankee-Bulldog Troll. ... From: To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com Sent: 11/29/2007 12:12:57 PM Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 29, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    LOL......from the Yankee-Bulldog Troll.


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From:
                    To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: 11/29/2007 12:12:57 PM
                    Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler



                    http://curezone.com/forums/troll.asp
                    " An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.
                    [big snip by Moderator]

                    Moderator here. I'd just like to go on the record as saying that although "trolls" undoubtedly can be a major problem on internet e-groups, I for one don't believe that list member David Sigler is one. If I did, I'd have banned him from this list.

                    Jim Yaworsky
                  • roy winders
                    very interesting, but how do we know your who you say you are? ... From: HQ93rd@aol.com To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday,
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 29, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      very interesting, but how do we know your who you say you are?


                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: "HQ93rd@..." <HQ93rd@...>
                      To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:54:56 PM
                      Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler


                      http://curezone. com/forums/ troll.asp
                      " An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.
                      Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for their bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are hurting real people. To them, other Internet users are not quite human but are a kind of digital abstraction. As a result, they feel no sorrow whatsoever for the pain they inflict. Indeed, the greater the suffering they cause, the greater their 'achievement' (as they see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net allows trolls to flourish.
                      Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You cannot negotiate with them; you cannot cause them to feel shame or compassion; you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. For some reason, trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social responsibility.
                      Perhaps this sounds inconceivable. You may think, "Surely there is something I can write that will change them." But a true troll can not be changed by mere words.

                      Why Does it Matter?

                      Some people � particularly those who have been online for years � are not upset by trolls and consider them an inevitable hazard of using the net. As the saying goes, "You can't have a picnic without ants."
                      It would be nice if everybody was so easy-going, but the sad fact is that trolls do discourage people. Established posters may leave a message board because of the arguments that trolls ignite, and lurkers (people who read but do not post) may decide that they do not want to expose themselves to abuse and thus never get involved.
                      Another problem is that the negative emotions stirred up by trolls leak over into other discussions. Normally affable people can become bitter after reading an angry interchange between a troll and his victims, and this can poison previously friendly interactions between long-time users.
                      Finally, trolls create a paranoid environment, such that a casual criticism by a new arrival can elicit a ferocious and inappropriate backlash.
                      The Internet is a wonderful resource which is breaking down barriers and stripping away prejudice. Trolls threaten our continued enjoyment of this beautiful forum for ideas.

                      What Can be Done about Trolls?

                      When you suspect that somebody is a troll, you might try responding with a polite, mild message to see if it's just somebody in a bad mood. Internet users sometimes let their passions get away from them when seated safely behind their keyboard. If you ignore their bluster and respond in a pleasant manner, they usually calm down.
                      However, if the person persists in being beastly, and seems to enjoy being unpleasant, the only effective position is summed up as follows:
                      The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls.
                      When you try to reason with a troll, he wins. When you insult a troll, he wins. When you scream at a troll, he wins. The only thing that trolls can't handle is being ignored.

                      What Not to Do

                      As already stated, it is futile to try to "cure" a troll of his obsession. But perhaps you simply cannot bear the hostile environment that the troll is creating and want to go away for a while.
                      If you do that, then for the sake of the others on the system, please do not post a dramatic "Goodbye!" message. This convinces the troll that he is winning the battle. There is, perhaps, no message you can write on a message system that is as damaging as an announcement that you are leaving because of the hostility that the troll has kindled.
                      If you feel you must say something, a discreet message to the system operator (and some of the others users, if you have their email addresses) is the best course of action. Incidentally, if you are writing the letter in an agitated state, it is a good idea to wait an hour and then give it one last review before you actually send it. That might spare you the pain of saying things that you don't really mean to people you like.

                      Impersonation

                      One technique used by trolls to generate chaos is to pretend to be a well-liked person. On some systems there is nothing to prevent somebody from signing your name to a distasteful message. On other systems the troll may have to be a bit more wiley, perhaps by replacing one character with another. Here are some examples of various spoofing gimmicks that could be used against a person named Brenda Q. O'Really:
                      Brenda Q. O"Really Brenda Q. 0'Really Brenda Q O'Really
                      Brenda Q. O'Rea11y Bredna Q. O'Really 8renda Q. O'Really
                      Note: "Brenda Q. O'Really" is a made-up name used to illustrate spoofing and is not intended to refer to a particular person.

                      If you react with anger, the troll wins. So if you see a message impersonating you on a message board, simply write a follow-up reply entitled "That Wasn't Me" and type only this:
                      I did not write that message; it is a fake.
                      Of course, sometimes you will find that people who know you well have already identified the message as a fake and have tagged it as such. After all, one of the troll's goals is to make you look bad. If you have a good reputation, people will be tipped off if a message that you apparently wrote is completely out of character.
                      Trolls have been known to become so irritated at having their spoofs identified that they have learned to write in another person's style. They may end up writing an intelligent message that is indistinguishable from your own golden words. If that happens, you can always just let the post stand and take credit for it!
                      Trolls will also sometimes write a "That Wasn't Me" message after a genuine one, attempting to elicit a denial. There really is no reason to give him what he wants, since a "That Wasn't Me" warning merely reminds people to be skeptical. That is to say, it is of no real consequence if somebody isn't sure that you wrote a normal message, since in the long run it is the ideas that are important.

                      The Webmaster's Challenge

                      When trolls are ignored they step up their attacks, desperately seeking the attention they crave. Their messages become more and more foul, and they post ever more of them. Alternatively, they may protest that their right to free speech is being curtailed � more on this later.
                      The moderator of a message board may not be able to delete a troll's messages right away, but their job is made much harder if they also have to read numerous replies to trolls. They are also forced to decide whether or not to delete posts from well-meaning folks which have the unintended effect of encouraging the troll.
                      Some webmasters have to endure conscientious users telling them that they are "acting like dictators" and should never delete a single message. These people may be misinformed: they may have arrived at their opinion about a troll based on the messages they see, never realizing that the webmaster has already deleted his most horrific material. Please remember that a troll does have an alternative if he has something of value to say: there are services on the net that provide messaging systems free of charge. So the troll can set up his own message board, where he can make his own decisions about the kind of content he will tolerate.
                      Just how much can we expect of a webmaster when it comes to preserving the principles of free speech? Some trolls find sport in determining what the breaking point is for a particular message board operator. They might post a dozen messages, each of which contains 400 lines of the letter "J". That is a form of expression, to be sure, but would you consider it your duty to play host to such a person?
                      Perhaps the most difficult challenge for a webmaster is deciding whether to take steps against a troll that a few people find entertaining. Some trolls do have a creative spark and have chosen to squander it on being disruptive. There is a certain perverse pleasure in watching some of them. Ultimately, though, the webmaster has to decide if the troll actually cares about putting on a good show for the regular participants, or is simply playing to an audience of one � himself.

                      What about Free Speech?

                      When trolls find that their efforts are being successfully resisted, they often complain that their right to free speech is being infringed. Let us examine that claim.
                      While most people on the Internet are ardent defenders of free speech, it is not an absolute right; there are practical limitations. For example, you may not scream out "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, and you may not make jokes about bombs while waiting to board an airplane. We accept these limitations because we recognize that they serve a greater good.
                      Another useful example is the control of the radio frequency spectrum. You might wish to set up a powerful radio station to broadcast your ideas, but you cannot do so without applying for a license. Again, this is a practical limitation: if everybody broadcasted without restriction, the repercussions would be annoying at best and life-threatening at worst.
                      The radio example is helpful for another reason: with countless people having a legitimate need to use radio communications, it is important to ensure that nobody is 'monopolizing the channel'. There are only so many clear channels available in each frequency band and these must be shared.
                      When a troll attacks a message board, he generally posts a lot of messages. Even if his messages are not particularly inflammatory, they can be so numerous that they drown out the regular conversations (this is known as 'flooding'). Needless to say, no one person's opinions can be allowed to monopolize a channel.
                      The ultimate response to the 'free speech' argument is this: while we may have the right to say more or less whatever we want, we do not have the right to say it wherever we want. You may feel strongly about the fact that your neighbour has not mowed his lawn for two months, but you do not have the right to berate him in his own living room. Similarly, if a webmaster tells a troll that he is not welcome, the troll has no "right" to remain. This is particularly true on the numerous free communications services offered on the net. (On pay systems, the troll might be justified in asking for a refund.)

                      Why Do They Do It?

                      Affirmation.
                      Regular net users know how delightful it is when somebody responds to something they have written. It is a meeting of the minds, which is an intellectual thrill, but it is also an acknowledgement of one's value � and that can be a very satisfying emotional reward.
                      Trolls crave attention, and they care not whether it is positive or negative. They see the Internet as a mirror into which they can gaze in narcissistic rapture.
                      If you want a deeper analysis than that, perhaps a psychologist can shed some additional light on the matter.

                      Conclusion

                      Next time you are on a message board and you see a post by somebody whom you think is a troll, and you feel you must reply, simply write a follow-up message entitled "Troll Alert" and type only this:
                      The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls.
                      By posting such a message, you let the troll know that you know what he is, and that you are not going to get dragged into his twisted little hobby.
                      The Internet is a splendidly haphazard collection of both serious and silly material. Because it is so free, there are bound to be problems. I think that we can best enjoy it if we deal with everything that happens online with a wry grin and a ready shrug."

                      93rd SHRoFLHU
                      THE Thin Red Line
                      www.93rdhighlanders .com

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: David Sigler <dasigler@earthlink. net>
                      To: WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com
                      Sent: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:35 pm
                      Subject: RE: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler

                      LOL......... ..I'm not the one taking this seriously and yet I am the one
                      being censored for having an opinion? I think some of you need to reread the
                      discussion and see who was insulting who. I will assume that Sir. Tim is the
                      real moderator in this group and leave it at that as the reason for my leaving;
                      By the way, I never said Wellington wasn't good, just not as great as some would
                      believe. I'll leave this group on my own accord; laughing all the way at the
                      childish behavior of it all..... and at the ego of some....LOL!

                      david a sigler

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Larry Lozon
                      To: WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com
                      Sent: 11/22/2007 1:49:41 PM
                      Subject: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler

                      Mr. Sigler

                      Sir, May I suggest you search the archives of this Yahoo Group, there
                      you will find a lot of information regarding the War of 1812

                      Then visit your local book store and read up on the War.

                      If you Google the War of 1812 you will have a treasure trove of super
                      books to read.

                      Instead of asking for help with your book list . . . do some of the
                      ground work.

                      The war of 1812 was won by no one,
                      the borders went back to where they were.
                      Everything went back to the way it was before the war

                      There was a loser and that was the Natives (Indians) check the
                      archives to find out why . . .

                      Detroit was captured by Crown Forces (British, Canadian, Militias,
                      Allies)
                      New Orleans was won by the USA Forces
                      Both sides had great leaders

                      We have to get over it!

                      If would have . . . could have . . . should have . . .
                      never happened.
                      Read the accounts of both USA and Crown and make a decision

                      To jump into a conversation . . . as a battle . . .
                      without ammunition . . .
                      your own words, "my lack of knowing"
                      is very dangerous and it only proves one thing . . . *

                      As one human being to another . . . research the War of 1812 before
                      you criticize any of its participants and then you can back up your
                      statements.

                      "I do not see your hero as the giant of military leadership"

                      Sir, Wellington, Napoleon, Hitler, Churchill, Scott, Harrison,
                      Jackson were all great military leaders, some more than others but
                      you cannot take their military leadership away from them . . .
                      again it only proves one thing . . . *

                      You have been asked by Mr. Fournier, Moderator of this Yahoo Group to
                      quit this thread,
                      I, Larry Lozon, Moderator, also ask you to quit this thread.
                      The only other to do so will be Mr. Yaworsky, Group Owner,
                      and with that you risk being denied access to this group.

                      Without prejudice
                      Larry Lozon

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      War of 1812 Living History:
                      A wide-ranging information exchange
                      for all participants and supporters

                      Unit Contact information for North America:
                      Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                      http://1812crownfor ces.tripod. com
                      American Forces Unit Listing
                      http://usforces1812 .tripod.com

                      WAR OF 1812 EVENTS LIST:
                      http://royal. scots.tripod. com/warof1812eve ntslist
                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                      More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn. com/cdn.webmail. aol.com/mailtour /aol/en-us/ text.htm? ncid=aolcmp00050 000000003

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • HAROLD DENNISON
                      I can assure you Roy, I ve seen the sausage dance (don t ask), I ve been attacked by potatoes and kitchen utensils.......Mr Jennings is the real deal!! :)
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 29, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I can assure you Roy, I've seen the sausage dance (don't ask), I've been attacked by potatoes and kitchen utensils.......Mr Jennings "is" the real deal!! :)

                        roy winders <rangerroy50@...> wrote: very interesting, but how do we know your who you say you are?


                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: "HQ93rd@..."
                        To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:54:56 PM
                        Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler


                        http://curezone. com/forums/ troll.asp
                        " An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.
                        Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for their bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are hurting real people. To them, other Internet users are not quite human but are a kind of digital abstraction. As a result, they feel no sorrow whatsoever for the pain they inflict. Indeed, the greater the suffering they cause, the greater their 'achievement' (as they see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net allows trolls to flourish.
                        Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You cannot negotiate with them; you cannot cause them to feel shame or compassion; you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. For some reason, trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social responsibility.
                        Perhaps this sounds inconceivable. You may think, "Surely there is something I can write that will change them." But a true troll can not be changed by mere words.

                        Why Does it Matter?

                        Some people — particularly those who have been online for years — are not upset by trolls and consider them an inevitable hazard of using the net. As the saying goes, "You can't have a picnic without ants."
                        It would be nice if everybody was so easy-going, but the sad fact is that trolls do discourage people. Established posters may leave a message board because of the arguments that trolls ignite, and lurkers (people who read but do not post) may decide that they do not want to expose themselves to abuse and thus never get involved.
                        Another problem is that the negative emotions stirred up by trolls leak over into other discussions. Normally affable people can become bitter after reading an angry interchange between a troll and his victims, and this can poison previously friendly interactions between long-time users.
                        Finally, trolls create a paranoid environment, such that a casual criticism by a new arrival can elicit a ferocious and inappropriate backlash.
                        The Internet is a wonderful resource which is breaking down barriers and stripping away prejudice. Trolls threaten our continued enjoyment of this beautiful forum for ideas.

                        What Can be Done about Trolls?

                        When you suspect that somebody is a troll, you might try responding with a polite, mild message to see if it's just somebody in a bad mood. Internet users sometimes let their passions get away from them when seated safely behind their keyboard. If you ignore their bluster and respond in a pleasant manner, they usually calm down.
                        However, if the person persists in being beastly, and seems to enjoy being unpleasant, the only effective position is summed up as follows:
                        The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls.
                        When you try to reason with a troll, he wins. When you insult a troll, he wins. When you scream at a troll, he wins. The only thing that trolls can't handle is being ignored.

                        What Not to Do

                        As already stated, it is futile to try to "cure" a troll of his obsession. But perhaps you simply cannot bear the hostile environment that the troll is creating and want to go away for a while.
                        If you do that, then for the sake of the others on the system, please do not post a dramatic "Goodbye!" message. This convinces the troll that he is winning the battle. There is, perhaps, no message you can write on a message system that is as damaging as an announcement that you are leaving because of the hostility that the troll has kindled.
                        If you feel you must say something, a discreet message to the system operator (and some of the others users, if you have their email addresses) is the best course of action. Incidentally, if you are writing the letter in an agitated state, it is a good idea to wait an hour and then give it one last review before you actually send it. That might spare you the pain of saying things that you don't really mean to people you like.

                        Impersonation

                        One technique used by trolls to generate chaos is to pretend to be a well-liked person. On some systems there is nothing to prevent somebody from signing your name to a distasteful message. On other systems the troll may have to be a bit more wiley, perhaps by replacing one character with another. Here are some examples of various spoofing gimmicks that could be used against a person named Brenda Q. O'Really:
                        Brenda Q. O"Really Brenda Q. 0'Really Brenda Q O'Really
                        Brenda Q. O'Rea11y Bredna Q. O'Really 8renda Q. O'Really
                        Note: "Brenda Q. O'Really" is a made-up name used to illustrate spoofing and is not intended to refer to a particular person.

                        If you react with anger, the troll wins. So if you see a message impersonating you on a message board, simply write a follow-up reply entitled "That Wasn't Me" and type only this:
                        I did not write that message; it is a fake.
                        Of course, sometimes you will find that people who know you well have already identified the message as a fake and have tagged it as such. After all, one of the troll's goals is to make you look bad. If you have a good reputation, people will be tipped off if a message that you apparently wrote is completely out of character.
                        Trolls have been known to become so irritated at having their spoofs identified that they have learned to write in another person's style. They may end up writing an intelligent message that is indistinguishable from your own golden words. If that happens, you can always just let the post stand and take credit for it!
                        Trolls will also sometimes write a "That Wasn't Me" message after a genuine one, attempting to elicit a denial. There really is no reason to give him what he wants, since a "That Wasn't Me" warning merely reminds people to be skeptical. That is to say, it is of no real consequence if somebody isn't sure that you wrote a normal message, since in the long run it is the ideas that are important.

                        The Webmaster's Challenge

                        When trolls are ignored they step up their attacks, desperately seeking the attention they crave. Their messages become more and more foul, and they post ever more of them. Alternatively, they may protest that their right to free speech is being curtailed — more on this later.
                        The moderator of a message board may not be able to delete a troll's messages right away, but their job is made much harder if they also have to read numerous replies to trolls. They are also forced to decide whether or not to delete posts from well-meaning folks which have the unintended effect of encouraging the troll.
                        Some webmasters have to endure conscientious users telling them that they are "acting like dictators" and should never delete a single message. These people may be misinformed: they may have arrived at their opinion about a troll based on the messages they see, never realizing that the webmaster has already deleted his most horrific material. Please remember that a troll does have an alternative if he has something of value to say: there are services on the net that provide messaging systems free of charge. So the troll can set up his own message board, where he can make his own decisions about the kind of content he will tolerate.
                        Just how much can we expect of a webmaster when it comes to preserving the principles of free speech? Some trolls find sport in determining what the breaking point is for a particular message board operator. They might post a dozen messages, each of which contains 400 lines of the letter "J". That is a form of expression, to be sure, but would you consider it your duty to play host to such a person?
                        Perhaps the most difficult challenge for a webmaster is deciding whether to take steps against a troll that a few people find entertaining. Some trolls do have a creative spark and have chosen to squander it on being disruptive. There is a certain perverse pleasure in watching some of them. Ultimately, though, the webmaster has to decide if the troll actually cares about putting on a good show for the regular participants, or is simply playing to an audience of one — himself.

                        What about Free Speech?

                        When trolls find that their efforts are being successfully resisted, they often complain that their right to free speech is being infringed. Let us examine that claim.
                        While most people on the Internet are ardent defenders of free speech, it is not an absolute right; there are practical limitations. For example, you may not scream out "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, and you may not make jokes about bombs while waiting to board an airplane. We accept these limitations because we recognize that they serve a greater good.
                        Another useful example is the control of the radio frequency spectrum. You might wish to set up a powerful radio station to broadcast your ideas, but you cannot do so without applying for a license. Again, this is a practical limitation: if everybody broadcasted without restriction, the repercussions would be annoying at best and life-threatening at worst.
                        The radio example is helpful for another reason: with countless people having a legitimate need to use radio communications, it is important to ensure that nobody is 'monopolizing the channel'. There are only so many clear channels available in each frequency band and these must be shared.
                        When a troll attacks a message board, he generally posts a lot of messages. Even if his messages are not particularly inflammatory, they can be so numerous that they drown out the regular conversations (this is known as 'flooding'). Needless to say, no one person's opinions can be allowed to monopolize a channel.
                        The ultimate response to the 'free speech' argument is this: while we may have the right to say more or less whatever we want, we do not have the right to say it wherever we want. You may feel strongly about the fact that your neighbour has not mowed his lawn for two months, but you do not have the right to berate him in his own living room. Similarly, if a webmaster tells a troll that he is not welcome, the troll has no "right" to remain. This is particularly true on the numerous free communications services offered on the net. (On pay systems, the troll might be justified in asking for a refund.)

                        Why Do They Do It?

                        Affirmation.
                        Regular net users know how delightful it is when somebody responds to something they have written. It is a meeting of the minds, which is an intellectual thrill, but it is also an acknowledgement of one's value — and that can be a very satisfying emotional reward.
                        Trolls crave attention, and they care not whether it is positive or negative. They see the Internet as a mirror into which they can gaze in narcissistic rapture.
                        If you want a deeper analysis than that, perhaps a psychologist can shed some additional light on the matter.

                        Conclusion

                        Next time you are on a message board and you see a post by somebody whom you think is a troll, and you feel you must reply, simply write a follow-up message entitled "Troll Alert" and type only this:
                        The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls.
                        By posting such a message, you let the troll know that you know what he is, and that you are not going to get dragged into his twisted little hobby.
                        The Internet is a splendidly haphazard collection of both serious and silly material. Because it is so free, there are bound to be problems. I think that we can best enjoy it if we deal with everything that happens online with a wry grin and a ready shrug."

                        93rd SHRoFLHU
                        THE Thin Red Line
                        www.93rdhighlanders .com

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: David Sigler
                        To: WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com
                        Sent: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:35 pm
                        Subject: RE: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler

                        LOL......... ..I'm not the one taking this seriously and yet I am the one
                        being censored for having an opinion? I think some of you need to reread the
                        discussion and see who was insulting who. I will assume that Sir. Tim is the
                        real moderator in this group and leave it at that as the reason for my leaving;
                        By the way, I never said Wellington wasn't good, just not as great as some would
                        believe. I'll leave this group on my own accord; laughing all the way at the
                        childish behavior of it all..... and at the ego of some....LOL!

                        david a sigler

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Larry Lozon
                        To: WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com
                        Sent: 11/22/2007 1:49:41 PM
                        Subject: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler

                        Mr. Sigler

                        Sir, May I suggest you search the archives of this Yahoo Group, there
                        you will find a lot of information regarding the War of 1812

                        Then visit your local book store and read up on the War.

                        If you Google the War of 1812 you will have a treasure trove of super
                        books to read.

                        Instead of asking for help with your book list . . . do some of the
                        ground work.

                        The war of 1812 was won by no one,
                        the borders went back to where they were.
                        Everything went back to the way it was before the war

                        There was a loser and that was the Natives (Indians) check the
                        archives to find out why . . .

                        Detroit was captured by Crown Forces (British, Canadian, Militias,
                        Allies)
                        New Orleans was won by the USA Forces
                        Both sides had great leaders

                        We have to get over it!

                        If would have . . . could have . . . should have . . .
                        never happened.
                        Read the accounts of both USA and Crown and make a decision

                        To jump into a conversation . . . as a battle . . .
                        without ammunition . . .
                        your own words, "my lack of knowing"
                        is very dangerous and it only proves one thing . . . *

                        As one human being to another . . . research the War of 1812 before
                        you criticize any of its participants and then you can back up your
                        statements.

                        "I do not see your hero as the giant of military leadership"

                        Sir, Wellington, Napoleon, Hitler, Churchill, Scott, Harrison,
                        Jackson were all great military leaders, some more than others but
                        you cannot take their military leadership away from them . . .
                        again it only proves one thing . . . *

                        You have been asked by Mr. Fournier, Moderator of this Yahoo Group to
                        quit this thread,
                        I, Larry Lozon, Moderator, also ask you to quit this thread.
                        The only other to do so will be Mr. Yaworsky, Group Owner,
                        and with that you risk being denied access to this group.

                        Without prejudice
                        Larry Lozon

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        War of 1812 Living History:
                        A wide-ranging information exchange
                        for all participants and supporters

                        Unit Contact information for North America:
                        Crown Forces Unit Listing:
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                        for all participants and supporters


                        Unit Contact information for North America:
                        Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                        http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                        American Forces Unit Listing
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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Chris Kimball
                        If you want to know if Mr. Jennings is real, you can see him on just about every recent documentary on the War of 1812. The man knows what he is talking about
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 30, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          If you want to know if Mr. Jennings is real, you can see him on just about every recent documentary on the War of 1812. The man knows what he is talking about and is an accepted authority. Among several others who also post on this board frequently. I consider it a privilege to post among them here in this group.
                          Chris
                          in the God-forsaken Florida territory


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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • HQ93rd@aol.com
                          Just so you are aware, David, I am a USA-ian/American of long generational degree, some branches of the family reaching back to the 1600s here before there was
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 1, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Just so you are aware, David, I am a USA-ian/American of long generational degree, some branches of the family reaching back to the 1600s here before there was a USA, and with family members preceding and present having served in all branches of the US Military. The last immigrant ancestor seems to have come over during or right after the War of Independence.
                            So don't think the "Yankee-Bulldog" appellation is yours alone.


                            B


                            ?93rd SHRoFLHU
                            THE Thin Red Line
                            www.93rdhighlanders.com






                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: David Sigler <dasigler@...>
                            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 4:29 pm
                            Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler










                            LOL......from the Yankee-Bulldog Troll.



                            http://curezone.com/forums/troll.asp
                            " An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the
                            Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.
                            [big snip by Moderator]

                            Moderator here. I'd just like to go on the record as saying that although
                            "trolls" undoubtedly can be a major problem on internet e-groups, I for one
                            don't believe that list member David Sigler is one. If I did, I'd have banned
                            him from this list.
                            Jim Yaworsky







                            ________________________________________________________________________
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                          • HQ93rd@aol.com
                            very interesting, but how do we know your who you say you are? Right back at ya. Lt Col I yam what I yam I m Popeye the Sailor B 93rd SHRoFLHU THE Thin Red
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 3, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              very interesting, but how do we know your who you say you are?


                              Right back at ya.



                              Lt Col I yam what I yam I'm Popeye the Sailor B


                              93rd SHRoFLHU
                              THE Thin Red Line
                              www.93rdhighlanders.com
                              www.myspace.com/93rdhighlanders






                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: roy winders <rangerroy50@...>
                              To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 5:04 pm
                              Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler










                              very interesting, but how do we know your who you say you are?


                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: "HQ93rd@..." <HQ93rd@...>
                              To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:54:56 PM
                              Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler


                              http://curezone. com/forums/ troll.asp
                              " An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the
                              Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.
                              Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for their
                              bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are hurting real
                              people. To them, other Internet users are not quite human but are a kind of
                              digital abstraction. As a result, they feel no sorrow whatsoever for the pain
                              they inflict. Indeed, the greater the suffering they cause, the greater their
                              'achievement' (as they see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net
                              allows trolls to flourish.
                              Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You
                              cannot negotiate with them; you cannot cause them to feel shame or compassion;
                              you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. For some
                              reason, trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social
                              responsibility.
                              Perhaps this sounds inconceivable. You may think, "Surely there is something I
                              can write that will change them." But a true troll can not be changed by mere
                              words.

                              Why Does it Matter?

                              Some people — particularly those who have been online for years — are not upset
                              by trolls and consider them an inevitable hazard of using the net. As the saying
                              goes, "You can't have a picnic without ants."
                              It would be nice if everybody was so easy-going, but the sad fact is that
                              trolls do discourage people. Established posters may leave a message board
                              because of the arguments that trolls ignite, and lurkers (people who read but do
                              not post) may decide that they do not want to expose themselves to abuse and
                              thus never get involved.
                              Another problem is that the negative emotions stirred up by trolls leak over
                              into other discussions. Normally affable people can become bitter after reading
                              an angry interchange between a troll and his victims, and this can poison
                              previously friendly interactions between long-time users.
                              Finally, trolls create a paranoid environment, such that a casual criticism by
                              a new arrival can elicit a ferocious and inappropriate backlash.
                              The Internet is a wonderful resource which is breaking down barriers and
                              stripping away prejudice. Trolls threaten our continued enjoyment of this
                              beautiful forum for ideas.

                              What Can be Done about Trolls?

                              When you suspect that somebody is a troll, you might try responding with a
                              polite, mild message to see if it's just somebody in a bad mood. Internet users
                              sometimes let their passions get away from them when seated safely behind their
                              keyboard. If you ignore their bluster and respond in a pleasant manner, they
                              usually calm down.
                              However, if the person persists in being beastly, and seems to enjoy being
                              unpleasant, the only effective position is summed up as follows:
                              The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others
                              not to respond to trolls.
                              When you try to reason with a troll, he wins. When you insult a troll, he wins.
                              When you scream at a troll, he wins. The only thing that trolls can't handle is
                              being ignored.

                              What Not to Do

                              As already stated, it is futile to try to "cure" a troll of his obsession. But
                              perhaps you simply cannot bear the hostile environment that the troll is
                              creating and want to go away for a while.
                              If you do that, then for the sake of the others on the system, please do not
                              post a dramatic "Goodbye!" message. This convinces the troll that he is winning
                              the battle. There is, perhaps, no message you can write on a message system that
                              is as damaging as an announcement that you are leaving because of the hostility
                              that the troll has kindled.
                              If you feel you must say something, a discreet message to the system operator
                              (and some of the others users, if you have their email addresses) is the best
                              course of action. Incidentally, if you are writing the letter in an agitated
                              state, it is a good idea to wait an hour and then give it one last review before
                              you actually send it. That might spare you the pain of saying things that you
                              don't really mean to people you like.

                              Impersonation

                              One technique used by trolls to generate chaos is to pretend to be a well-liked
                              person. On some systems there is nothing to prevent somebody from signing your
                              name to a distasteful message. On other systems the troll may have to be a bit
                              more wiley, perhaps by replacing one character with another. Here are some
                              examples of various spoofing gimmicks that could be used against a person named
                              Brenda Q. O'Really:
                              Brenda Q. O"Really Brenda Q. 0'Really Brenda Q O'Really
                              Brenda Q. O'Rea11y Bredna Q. O'Really 8renda Q. O'Really
                              Note: "Brenda Q. O'Really" is a made-up name used to illustrate spoofing and is
                              not intended to refer to a particular person.

                              If you react with anger, the troll wins. So if you see a message impersonating
                              you on a message board, simply write a follow-up reply entitled "That Wasn't Me"
                              and type only this:
                              I did not write that message; it is a fake.
                              Of course, sometimes you will find that people who know you well have already
                              identified the message as a fake and have tagged it as such. After all, one of
                              the troll's goals is to make you look bad. If you have a good reputation, people
                              will be tipped off if a message that you apparently wrote is completely out of
                              character.
                              Trolls have been known to become so irritated at having their spoofs identified
                              that they have learned to write in another person's style. They may end up
                              writing an intelligent message that is indistinguishable from your own golden
                              words. If that happens, you can always just let the post stand and take credit
                              for it!
                              Trolls will also sometimes write a "That Wasn't Me" message after a genuine
                              one, attempting to elicit a denial. There really is no reason to give him what
                              he wants, since a "That Wasn't Me" warning merely reminds people to be
                              skeptical. That is to say, it is of no real consequence if somebody isn't sure
                              that you wrote a normal message, since in the long run it is the ideas that are
                              important.

                              The Webmaster's Challenge

                              When trolls are ignored they step up their attacks, desperately seeking the
                              attention they crave. Their messages become more and more foul, and they post
                              ever more of them. Alternatively, they may protest that their right to free
                              speech is being curtailed — more on this later.
                              The moderator of a message board may not be able to delete a troll's messages
                              right away, but their job is made much harder if they also have to read numerous
                              replies to trolls. They are also forced to decide whether or not to delete posts
                              from well-meaning folks which have the unintended effect of encouraging the
                              troll.
                              Some webmasters have to endure conscientious users telling them that they are
                              "acting like dictators" and should never delete a single message. These people
                              may be misinformed: they may have arrived at their opinion about a troll based
                              on the messages they see, never realizing that the webmaster has already deleted
                              his most horrific material. Please remember that a troll does have an
                              alternative if he has something of value to say: there are services on the net
                              that provide messaging systems free of charge. So the troll can set up his own
                              message board, where he can make his own decisions about the kind of content he
                              will tolerate.
                              Just how much can we expect of a webmaster when it comes to preserving the
                              principles of free speech? Some trolls find sport in determining what the
                              breaking point is for a particular message board operator. They might post a
                              dozen messages, each of which contains 400 lines of the letter "J". That is a
                              form of expression, to be sure, but would you consider it your duty to play host
                              to such a person?
                              Perhaps the most difficult challenge for a webmaster is deciding whether to
                              take steps against a troll that a few people find entertaining. Some trolls do
                              have a creative spark and have chosen to squander it on being disruptive. There
                              is a certain perverse pleasure in watching some of them. Ultimately, though, the
                              webmaster has to decide if the troll actually cares about putting on a good show
                              for the regular participants, or is simply playing to an audience of one —
                              himself.

                              What about Free Speech?

                              When trolls find that their efforts are being successfully resisted, they often
                              complain that their right to free speech is being infringed. Let us examine that
                              claim.
                              While most people on the Internet are ardent defenders of free speech, it is
                              not an absolute right; there are practical limitations. For example, you may not
                              scream out "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, and you may not make jokes about bombs
                              while waiting to board an airplane. We accept these limitations because we
                              recognize that they serve a greater good.
                              Another useful example is the control of the radio frequency spectrum. You
                              might wish to set up a powerful radio station to broadcast your ideas, but you
                              cannot do so without applying for a license. Again, this is a practical
                              limitation: if everybody broadcasted without restriction, the repercussions
                              would be annoying at best and life-threatening at worst.
                              The radio example is helpful for another reason: with countless people having a
                              legitimate need to use radio communications, it is important to ensure that
                              nobody is 'monopolizing the channel'. There are only so many clear channels
                              available in each frequency band and these must be shared.
                              When a troll attacks a message board, he generally posts a lot of messages.
                              Even if his messages are not particularly inflammatory, they can be so numerous
                              that they drown out the regular conversations (this is known as 'flooding').
                              Needless to say, no one person's opinions can be allowed to monopolize a
                              channel.
                              The ultimate response to the 'free speech' argument is this: while we may have
                              the right to say more or less whatever we want, we do not have the right to say
                              it wherever we want. You may feel strongly about the fact that your neighbour
                              has not mowed his lawn for two months, but you do not have the right to berate
                              him in his own living room. Similarly, if a webmaster tells a troll that he is
                              not welcome, the troll has no "right" to remain. This is particularly true on
                              the numerous free communications services offered on the net. (On pay systems,
                              the troll might be justified in asking for a refund.)

                              Why Do They Do It?

                              Affirmation.
                              Regular net users know how delightful it is when somebody responds to something
                              they have written. It is a meeting of the minds, which is an intellectual
                              thrill, but it is also an acknowledgement of one's value — and that can be a
                              very satisfying emotional reward.
                              Trolls crave attention, and they care not whether it is positive or negative.
                              They see the Internet as a mirror into which they can gaze in narcissistic
                              rapture.
                              If you want a deeper analysis than that, perhaps a psychologist can shed some
                              additional light on the matter.

                              Conclusion

                              Next time you are on a message board and you see a post by somebody whom you
                              think is a troll, and you feel you must reply, simply write a follow-up message
                              entitled "Troll Alert" and type only this:
                              The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others
                              not to respond to trolls.
                              By posting such a message, you let the troll know that you know what he is, and
                              that you are not going to get dragged into his twisted little hobby.
                              The Internet is a splendidly haphazard collection of both serious and silly
                              material. Because it is so free, there are bound to be problems. I think that we
                              can best enjoy it if we deal with everything that happens online with a wry grin
                              and a ready shrug."

                              93rd SHRoFLHU
                              THE Thin Red Line
                              www.93rdhighlanders .com

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: David Sigler <dasigler@earthlink. net>
                              To: WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com
                              Sent: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:35 pm
                              Subject: RE: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler

                              LOL......... ..I'm not the one taking this seriously and yet I am the one
                              being censored for having an opinion? I think some of you need to reread the
                              discussion and see who was insulting who. I will assume that Sir. Tim is the
                              real moderator in this group and leave it at that as the reason for my leaving;
                              By the way, I never said Wellington wasn't good, just not as great as some would

                              believe. I'll leave this group on my own accord; laughing all the way at the
                              childish behavior of it all..... and at the ego of some....LOL!

                              david a sigler

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Larry Lozon
                              To: WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com
                              Sent: 11/22/2007 1:49:41 PM
                              Subject: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler

                              Mr. Sigler

                              Sir, May I suggest you search the archives of this Yahoo Group, there
                              you will find a lot of information regarding the War of 1812

                              Then visit your local book store and read up on the War.

                              If you Google the War of 1812 you will have a treasure trove of super
                              books to read.

                              Instead of asking for help with your book list . . . do some of the
                              ground work.

                              The war of 1812 was won by no one,
                              the borders went back to where they were.
                              Everything went back to the way it was before the war

                              There was a loser and that was the Natives (Indians) check the
                              archives to find out why . . .

                              Detroit was captured by Crown Forces (British, Canadian, Militias,
                              Allies)
                              New Orleans was won by the USA Forces
                              Both sides had great leaders

                              We have to get over it!

                              If would have . . . could have . . . should have . . .
                              never happened.
                              Read the accounts of both USA and Crown and make a decision

                              To jump into a conversation . . . as a battle . . .
                              without ammunition . . .
                              your own words, "my lack of knowing"
                              is very dangerous and it only proves one thing . . . *

                              As one human being to another . . . research the War of 1812 before
                              you criticize any of its participants and then you can back up your
                              statements.

                              "I do not see your hero as the giant of military leadership"

                              Sir, Wellington, Napoleon, Hitler, Churchill, Scott, Harrison,
                              Jackson were all great military leaders, some more than others but
                              you cannot take their military leadership away from them . . .
                              again it only proves one thing . . . *

                              You have been asked by Mr. Fournier, Moderator of this Yahoo Group to
                              quit this thread,
                              I, Larry Lozon, Moderator, also ask you to quit this thread.
                              The only other to do so will be Mr. Yaworsky, Group Owner,
                              and with that you risk being denied access to this group.

                              Without prejudice
                              Larry Lozon

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              War of 1812 Living History:
                              A wide-ranging information exchange
                              for all participants and supporters

                              Unit Contact information for North America:
                              Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                              http://1812crownfor ces.tripod. com
                              American Forces Unit Listing
                              http://usforces1812 .tripod.com

                              WAR OF 1812 EVENTS LIST:
                              http://royal. scots.tripod. com/warof1812eve ntslist
                              Yahoo! Groups Links

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                              War of 1812 Living History:
                              A wide-ranging information exchange
                              for all participants and supporters


                              Unit Contact information for North America:
                              Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                              http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                              American Forces Unit Listing
                              http://usforces1812.tripod.com

                              WAR OF 1812 EVENTS LIST:
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                            • Dale Kidd
                              ... For heaven s sake, don t ask Roy that! Those of us who know him will happily vouch for him... just don t encourage him toward any new heights of infamy to
                              Message 14 of 15 , Dec 3, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, HQ93rd@... wrote:
                                > Right back at ya.

                                For heaven's sake, don't ask Roy that! Those of us who know him will
                                happily vouch for him... just don't encourage him toward any new
                                heights of infamy to establish his identity!

                                ~Dale
                              • roy winders
                                party pooper ... From: Dale Kidd To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 3:46:48 PM Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] Mr.
                                Message 15 of 15 , Dec 3, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  party pooper


                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: Dale Kidd <ucpm_gunner@...>
                                  To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 3:46:48 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler

                                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com, HQ93rd@... wrote:
                                  > Right back at ya.

                                  For heaven's sake, don't ask Roy that! Those of us who know him will
                                  happily vouch for him... just don't encourage him toward any new
                                  heights of infamy to establish his identity!

                                  ~Dale





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