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Re: [War Of 1812] Filed Safety (was The future of re-enacting?)

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  • peter monahan
    ... wrote: Here s a suggestion, perhaps worth exactly what you paid for it: anyone who didn t participate in an event in the previous year, could be required
    Message 1 of 28 , Oct 29, 2007
      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Angela Gottfred" <agottfre@...>
      wrote:

      Here's a suggestion, perhaps worth exactly what you paid for it:
      anyone who didn't participate in an event in the previous year, could
      be required to do the newby/refresher course.

      Angela

      I certainly wouldn't be averse to such a plan, though I believe all
      the units I know of personally require a minimum number of drill
      sessions for new and returning members.

      But perhaps it's worth putting such a requirement in writing and
      certainly encouraging attendance at a 'refresher' can never be a bad
      idea.

      However, as I tried to suggest - perhaps too vaguely - there are two
      issues with 'requiring' safety courses and standards. One, we are
      all adults and, at least in 1812, largely self-policing: there is no
      mechanism other than moral suasion to compel conformity to any
      standard, be it safety, authenticity or any other 'standard'.
      Secondly, it's frequently the case that the units whose members most
      need remediation are those least able to see or appreciate the need
      for same! And, given point one above, who bells that cat?

      Respectfully,
      P Monahan
    • spikeyj
      On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 15:33:14 -0000 ... The folks running events, who have insurance premiums to worry about. Spike Y Jones ... Web mail provided by NuNet, Inc.
      Message 2 of 28 , Oct 29, 2007
        On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 15:33:14 -0000
        "peter monahan" <petemonahan@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Anyone who didn't participate in an event in the
        > > previous year, could be required to do the
        > > newby/refresher course.
        >
        > One, we are all adults and, at least in 1812, largely
        > self-policing: there is no
        > mechanism other than moral suasion to compel conformity
        > to any
        > standard, be it safety, authenticity or any other
        > 'standard'.
        > Secondly, it's frequently the case that the units whose
        > members most
        > need remediation are those least able to see or
        > appreciate the need
        > for same! And, given point one above, who bells that
        > cat?

        The folks running events, who have insurance premiums to
        worry about.

        Spike Y Jones
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        Web mail provided by NuNet, Inc. The Premier National provider.
        http://www.nni.com/
      • Dale Kidd
        There is one factor involved in all of this that I fear has been overlooked. Much vitriol has been cast regarding the responsibilities of the reenacting
        Message 3 of 28 , Oct 29, 2007
          There is one factor involved in all of this that I fear has been
          overlooked. Much vitriol has been cast regarding the
          responsibilities of the reenacting community as a whole and the
          individual units, but the fact remains that the idiots responsible
          for posting the offending video were not acting under the authority
          or oversight of their unit at the time, nor were they attending an
          organized event of any nature. They were obviously unfortunately
          unsupervised by anyone with an educated appreciation for the
          potential ramifications of their actions. In other words, they were
          being exactly what they actually are... teenagers with more
          enthusiasm than intelligence or experience.

          Now, I most certainly do not condone their actions, which were at
          the very least unsafe, and at worst, criminal. I can, however,
          reflect on my own younger years and think of a few things I did
          that, in retrospect, were awfully bloody stupid! And I'm willing to
          bet most of the rest of you can do likewise.

          The fact that the offending video has been removed from YouTube
          would tend to indicate that the hammer has probably already fallen
          (and pretty hard, I'm guessing) on our two cinematic geniuses.
          YouTube will generally not censor much of anything that does not
          outrageously violate the law, so they probably withdrew the video
          themselves... doubtless at the very insistant demand of the unit
          whose name they (probably without authorisation) besmirched by
          attaching it to their pet project.

          The big question becomes that of appropriate punishment. Should they
          be banned from reenacting? I personally don't think so. In fact,
          ASSUMING THAT THIS IS THEIR FIRST INFRACTION, if they were under my
          command, I would not let them off nearly so easily. In fact, I would
          be tempted to make them (within my capability) stay with the unit,
          and attend every parade and event for the next year. They would do
          all the drill, but NOT be allowed on the field. In camp, they would
          get all the work details. And they would be completely retrained,
          from scratch, in safe firearms handling. They would have to earn
          back the trust of their fellow reenactors. In short, rather than
          cast them out to find other trouble to get into, I would favour
          keeping them in the hobby and teaching them (the hard way) to be
          good, safe reenactors. In the long run, it is better to educate kids
          than just disinclude them. We can take the opportunity to teach them
          a valuable lesson and maybe turn them into somewhat wiser adults, or
          we can just abdicate the responsibility we assumed when we
          introduced them to the hobby in the first place.

          Note that I am now referring to "we"... whether it be as
          individuals, units, or the reenacting community as a whole, WE
          recruit young people into our hobby. WE introduce them to numerous
          potentially dangerous, but generally enjoyable facets of reenacting,
          such as campfires and black powder. WE therefore bear some
          responsibility in setting them straight when they screw up. And,
          being young people, they WILL screw up. Some will make more serious
          (or, as in this case, more public) mistakes than others. How we deal
          with those screwups will determine whether we keep or lose young
          people in our hobby, and possibly affect the long-term survival of
          our favourite passtime. What's more, it will be a direct reflection
          on ourselves and whether we can live up to the responsibilities we
          have assumed.

          Now, all that being said, we cannot tolerate the presence of
          individuals who refuse to learn from their mistakes. If someone is
          repeatedly unsafe, we have an obligation, based on the welfare of
          all the other members of the reenacting community (and the
          spectators who attend our events), to ban that individual from our
          midst, permanently.

          Some food for thought.

          Dale Kidd
          Fleet Master at Arms
          CFNA Naval Establishment
        • ronaldjdale@netscape.net
          In response to Dale Kidd s comments: Well said, Dale.? I keep wondering if these kids borrowed Dad s firelock for their backyard antics. The discussion on
          Message 4 of 28 , Oct 29, 2007
            In response to Dale Kidd's comments:


            Well said, Dale.? I keep wondering if these kids "borrowed" Dad's firelock for their backyard antics.

            The discussion on inspections for safety is an interesting one.? The reenactment community might consider a training course for certified Historic Weapons supervisors ( a la Parks Canada's course) with enough certified to ensure that there are at least a couple at each event to maintain standards, identify issues and provide advice on further training.

            I have seen very experienced reenactors do some pretty unsafe things--like battle reenactments in a village and a cannon being fired as a spectator rounded a corner--nobody had been assigned to crowd control.? I have also seen firing towards an audience with levelled muskets, etc. etc.

            Criminal responsibility rests with the individual, his/her unit commander, the hierarchy of the organization in which the unit is involved?and the manager of the site hosting the event.? So it is to everyone's advantage to preach and enforce the safety rules.

            Ron


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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Angela Gottfred
            Just as a postscript: I visited the website, www.fortmcintoshgarrison.org, again today, and the entire website has been replaced by generic content, with the
            Message 5 of 28 , Oct 29, 2007
              Just as a postscript: I visited the website, www.fortmcintoshgarrison.org,
              again today, and the entire website has been replaced by generic content,
              with the exception of a guestbook intro which states:

              "Please respect our concern for viewers of our site, as we have been
              recieving innapropiate comments, and derogatory. Please DO NOT POST ANY OF
              THESE TYPES OF COMMENTS

              We do not want to have these comments on our site. We are a family oriented
              organization. Do Not foul our site please. We Appreciate it very much.

              Fort McIntosh Admin"


              Your humble & obedient servant,
              Angela Gottfred
            • Kevin Windsor
              Very well said Mr. Kidd! Though I would hasten to add that screw ups come in all ages. Just because someone is 15 doesn t make him more dangerous than
              Message 6 of 28 , Oct 29, 2007
                Very well said Mr. Kidd! Though I would hasten to add that screw ups come
                in all ages. Just because someone is 15 doesn't make him more dangerous
                than someone who is 50.



                KW/89



                _____

                From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of Dale Kidd

                Now, all that being said, we cannot tolerate the presence of
                individuals who refuse to learn from their mistakes. If someone is
                repeatedly unsafe, we have an obligation, based on the welfare of
                all the other members of the reenacting community (and the
                spectators who attend our events), to ban that individual from our
                midst, permanently.

                Some food for thought.

                Dale Kidd
                Fleet Master at Arms
                CFNA Naval Establishment



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dale Kidd
                ... wrote: Just because someone is 15 doesn t make him more dangerous than someone who is 50. You are absolutely correct, sir. I merely
                Message 7 of 28 , Oct 29, 2007
                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Windsor"
                  <kevin.windsor@...> wrote:
                  Just because someone is 15 doesn't make him more dangerous than
                  someone who is 50.


                  You are absolutely correct, sir. I merely chose not to mention that,
                  as the immediate concern was with regard to an incident of teenage
                  foolishness. I would submit that so-called "responsible adults" have
                  less excuse for acting in a dangerous fashion, and should expect
                  less forgiveness from their peers. That said, I do not believe
                  blanket banning is neccessarily the appropriate penalty for any but
                  the most serious single offense (for example, an intent to injure).
                  The imposition of restrictions similar to that I suggested for
                  younger miscreants would undoubtedly be even more effective if
                  applied to an older offender, due in no small part to the
                  embarrasment factor. Such punishment would have to be meted out by
                  the offender's unit. More importantly, the rest of the reenacting
                  community would have to support the unit by refusing to accept any
                  attempt by the offender to transfer to another unit until his period
                  of punishment has been served, and by not allowing him to take the
                  field independently during that time either.

                  Those who repetitively act without regard for the safety of
                  themselves and/or the rest of us, however, should not be welcomed
                  into our events under arms. In fact, there are doubtless a few who
                  are a danger in our camps even without benefit of weapons. For the
                  sake of our own safety, and that of our families and our spectators,
                  our community is going to be forced to divest itself of these
                  individuals.

                  ~Dale
                • peter monahan
                  Angela Gottfred wrote: Just as a postscript: I visited the website, .fortmcintoshgarrison.org, again today, and the entire website has been
                  Message 8 of 28 , Oct 29, 2007
                    "Angela Gottfred" <agottfre@...> wrote:

                    Just as a postscript: I visited the
                    website, .fortmcintoshgarrison.org,> again today, and the entire
                    website has been replaced by generic content,with the exception of a
                    guestbook intro which states:

                    "Please respect our concern for viewers of our site, as we have been
                    recieving innapropiate comments, and derogatory. Please DO NOT POST
                    ANY OF THESE TYPES OF COMMENTS

                    We do not want to have these comments on our site. We are a family
                    oriented organization. Do Not foul our site please. We Appreciate it
                    very much.

                    Fort McIntosh Admin"

                    I too visited the Fort MacIntosh guestbook - the ame day that the
                    address was posted on this site - wuith the thought that I might post
                    a comment on 'the two young [fill in perjorative of your choice]. I
                    found several dozen comments there, many strident in tone and some
                    verging on abusive. Frankly, I was disappointed and embarassed by
                    the ay many of my fellow re-enactors chose to express themselves.
                    This won't help the hobby either!

                    Peter Monahan
                  • Gordon Deans
                    Ron, I can assure you that this was not a case of these kids borrowing Dad s firelock as I saw a picture of twiddle-dee and twiddle-dumb posing in a camp
                    Message 9 of 28 , Oct 29, 2007
                      Ron,

                      I can assure you that this was not a case of these kids "borrowing
                      Dad's firelock" as I saw a picture of "twiddle-dee" and "twiddle-dumb"
                      posing in a camp with an adult (father?) between them, each in full
                      uniform and each with a musket. I was not prepared for how quickly
                      the evidence "disappeared" from the internet or I would have made
                      copies of everything for future reference. Also disconcerting was the
                      fact that they both appeared to be under the age of sixteen.

                      It is sad that there were some verbally abusive postings on the
                      offenders' web site but perhaps the parents will get the message that
                      this was not just playful teenagers firing blanks. Try to explain
                      that to the SWAT team that is responding to a "shots fired" call.

                      Certified Historic Weapons Safety Officers within the reenacting
                      community would be a plus and refresher reviews of all safety
                      guidelines at the beginning of each year would be useful reminders of
                      what we all "know" but sometimes have forgotten.

                      We are all aware of at least 4 - 5 safety incidents in the past year
                      in North America mostly involving experienced reenactors. How many
                      could have been avoided if people had spoken up or filed an incident
                      report previously and stopped the dangerous behaviour.

                      Remember, all it takes is for one occurrence of a serious injury to
                      end our black powder hobby in Canada.

                      Gord

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: <ronaldjdale@...>
                      To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 3:32 PM
                      Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] Re: The future of re-enacting?


                      In response to Dale Kidd's comments:

                      Well said, Dale. I keep wondering if these kids "borrowed" Dad's
                      firelock for their backyard antics.

                      The discussion on inspections for safety is an interesting one. The
                      reenactment community might consider a training course for certified
                      Historic Weapons supervisors (a la Parks Canada's course) with enough
                      certified to ensure that there are at least a couple at each event to
                      maintain standards, identify issues and provide advice on further
                      training.

                      I have seen very experienced reenactors do some pretty unsafe
                      things--like battle reenactments in a village and a cannon being fired
                      as a spectator rounded a corner--nobody had been assigned to crowd
                      control. I have also seen firing towards an audience with levelled
                      muskets, etc. etc.

                      Criminal responsibility rests with the individual, his/her unit
                      commander, the hierarchy of the organization in which the unit is
                      involved and the manager of the site hosting the event. So it is to
                      everyone's advantage to preach and enforce the safety rules.

                      Ron
                    • Mark Dickerson
                      Original message: Also disconcerting was the fact that they both appeared to be under the age of sixteen. Why is it disconcerting about their age? Is it
                      Message 10 of 28 , Oct 30, 2007
                        Original message:

                        " Also disconcerting was the fact that they both appeared to be under the
                        age of sixteen."




                        Why is it disconcerting about their age? Is it just because they were
                        acting so foolishly at a young age? Hopefully not just because they are
                        young. In Ontario you can hunt at age 12 with a Hunter Apprenticeship
                        Safety Card provided you have passed both the Ontario Hunter Education
                        Course exam and the Canadian Firearms Safety Course exam.



                        Mark Dickerson



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Angela Gottfred
                        He was firing a gun while unsupervised by an adult. Pretty sure that s illegal where they were (Pittsburgh, Pa) if you re under 18. Your humble & obedient
                        Message 11 of 28 , Oct 30, 2007
                          He was firing a gun while unsupervised by an adult. Pretty sure that's
                          illegal where they were (Pittsburgh, Pa) if you're under 18.


                          Your humble & obedient servant,
                          Angela Gottfred

                          Mark Dickerson wrote:

                          Why is it disconcerting about their age? Is it just because they were
                          acting so foolishly at a young age? Hopefully not just because they are
                          young. In Ontario you can hunt at age 12 with a Hunter Apprenticeship
                          Safety Card provided you have passed both the Ontario Hunter Education
                          Course exam and the Canadian Firearms Safety Course exam.
                        • Mark Dickerson
                          Yes his actions were illegal. But my point is that in Ontario, a 12 year old can use a firearm so long as he obeys the law. Mark D From:
                          Message 12 of 28 , Oct 30, 2007
                            Yes his actions were illegal. But my point is that in Ontario, a 12 year
                            old can use a firearm so long as he obeys the law.



                            Mark D





                            From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            Of Angela Gottfred
                            Sent: October 30, 2007 8:32 AM
                            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [War Of 1812] Re: The future of re-enacting?



                            He was firing a gun while unsupervised by an adult. Pretty sure that's
                            illegal where they were (Pittsburgh, Pa) if you're under 18.

                            Your humble & obedient servant,
                            Angela Gottfred

                            Mark Dickerson wrote:

                            Why is it disconcerting about their age? Is it just because they were
                            acting so foolishly at a young age? Hopefully not just because they are
                            young. In Ontario you can hunt at age 12 with a Hunter Apprenticeship
                            Safety Card provided you have passed both the Ontario Hunter Education
                            Course exam and the Canadian Firearms Safety Course exam.





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • gilbertmartin60
                            ... Well said Mr. Kidd, Will you be the one to tell David and Jim? ;) Gil Martin
                            Message 13 of 28 , Oct 30, 2007
                              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Dale Kidd" <ucpm_gunner@...> wrote:

                              > Now, all that being said, we cannot tolerate the presence of
                              > individuals who refuse to learn from their mistakes. If someone is
                              > repeatedly unsafe, we have an obligation, based on the welfare of
                              > all the other members of the reenacting community (and the
                              > spectators who attend our events), to ban that individual from our
                              > midst, permanently.
                              >
                              > Some food for thought.
                              >
                              > Dale Kidd
                              > Fleet Master at Arms
                              > CFNA Naval Establishment

                              Well said Mr. Kidd,
                              Will you be the one to tell David and Jim? ;)
                              Gil Martin
                            • Dale Kidd
                              The comment made by Mr. Martin was innapropriate to the forum, and I have responded to him privately. Please, let s not get back into this quagmire on this
                              Message 14 of 28 , Oct 30, 2007
                                The comment made by Mr. Martin was innapropriate to the forum, and I
                                have responded to him privately. Please, let's not get back into
                                this quagmire on this group.

                                ~Dale

                                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "gilbertmartin60"
                                <gilbertmartin60@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Dale Kidd" <ucpm_gunner@> wrote:
                                >
                                > > Now, all that being said, we cannot tolerate the presence of
                                > > individuals who refuse to learn from their mistakes. If someone
                                is
                                > > repeatedly unsafe, we have an obligation, based on the welfare
                                of
                                > > all the other members of the reenacting community (and the
                                > > spectators who attend our events), to ban that individual from
                                our
                                > > midst, permanently.
                                > >
                                > > Some food for thought.
                                > >
                                > > Dale Kidd
                                > > Fleet Master at Arms
                                > > CFNA Naval Establishment
                                >
                                > Well said Mr. Kidd,
                                > Will you be the one to tell David and Jim? ;)
                                > Gil Martin
                                >
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