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Re: [War Of 1812] Re: Bess carbine

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  • Lloyd R. Gower
    James , I am referencing the book Red Coat Brown Bess . Mr anthony Darling ,Canadian Cataloging in Publication Data . Covers the Brown Bess from its inseption
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 5, 2007
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      James ,
      I am referencing the book Red Coat Brown Bess . Mr anthony Darling ,Canadian Cataloging in Publication Data . Covers the Brown Bess from its inseption , Their is no Carbine in his athoratative works . It is not until 1793 that we see the India Pattern Musket , which is the shortest British approved Pattern , of the three basic Muskets Long land Short land and India pattern . With all the lock trumpet pipe and other small deviations , no Carbine .ISBN0919316123 PA HISTORICAL ARMS SERIES NO 12 . I believe this is a good book and have relied on it heavily when brown bess conversations come up , he Mr Darling sticks right to the detail of the orders of the tower and ordinance department . A very informative work .
      I hope this helps the question . If I can look for particular year information to post please ask and ill quote page no # and years , from the work .
      Lloyd Gower
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: James Yaworsky
      To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 9:25 PM
      Subject: [War Of 1812] Re: Bess carbine


      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Dan" <aires51@...> wrote:
      >
      > I have heard many conflicting stories and am looking for a definitive
      > answere. Was there such a thing as the Brown Bess carbine?
      >

      Yes.





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Lloyd R. Gower
      James , Reading in Mr Darlings works , their are references to Carbines used by Hussars and Calvalry however these were carbines other than Brown Bess and were
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 5, 2007
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        James ,
        Reading in Mr Darlings works , their are references to Carbines used by Hussars and Calvalry however these were carbines other than Brown Bess and were 65 caliber . By the 1747 the calvalry was having their Carbines taken away and replaced by the Bess musket , That is what the ordinance board ordered .
        Their is reference to Highlanders being armed with Carbines however this was the 42 inch barreled Bess rather than the 46 inch barreled bess . so still short and long land pattern . Why they thought the 42 inch barreled gun was a carbine is beyond me . Thus stated The newly established light infantry carried carbines with 42 inch barrel 1760 .page 23
        However the short land pattern is a 42 in barrel musket , so if you want to call that a carbine ?
        The new land service is also a 42 inch barrel , so why they call the highland regiment muskets carbines ? They had 42 inch barrels . I am still not comming up with a bess carbine .
        Again Hope this helps . referencing Red coat Brown Bess .
        Lloyd Gower
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: James Yaworsky
        To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 9:25 PM
        Subject: [War Of 1812] Re: Bess carbine


        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Dan" <aires51@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have heard many conflicting stories and am looking for a definitive
        > answere. Was there such a thing as the Brown Bess carbine?
        >

        Yes.





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • ronaldjdale@netscape.net
        A number of years ago I was looking at lists of stores in the arsenal at Quebec.?? There were a number of Black Muskets in stores just before the war.? These
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 6, 2007
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          A number of years ago I was looking at lists of stores in the arsenal at Quebec.?? There were a number of "Black Muskets" in stores just before the war.? These later morphed into carbines and later?became India Pattern muskets.?? This all makes sense if the norm for the Canadas was still Short Land Pattern.? The India Pattern, originally for arming the East India Company army, could be referred to as a "Black Musket" not because of its colour but in reference to those expected to shoulder them.? The reference to carbine makes sense given the shorter barrel (39" vs 42").? However, whether or not these were ever issued to anyone other than Provincials or Militia escapes my memory.

          The Inspection Return for the 41st on Oct 11, 1809 indicates that there were no fusils issued to the regiment and that four were "wanting."? They were still "wanting" in the return of June 1810 but had been received by the time of the May 1811 return.? The 10th Royal Veterans showed that none were issued and none wanting in that regiment.

          In a?Return of Small Arms etc?at Fort George in June, 1812, ?the following are of interest:?

          1553 English Musquets
          1030 French Musquets
          16, 738 Flints Musquets
          60,000 English Musquet cartridge and ball
          140,000 French Musquet cartridge and ball
          666 Carbine Musquet cartridge and ball
          11.10 lbs of Dutch thread
          10.0 ditto of twine
          2, 140 Paper dozen sheets
          64, 200 English lead musquet balls

          French muskets are .69 calibre.? Obviously the carbine cartridges contain a ball that is neither .69 nor .75 calibre.?? No pistol balls are listed.

          Ron




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        • Jim Pierce
          Ron, I suspect the reference to Black Muskets probably referred to Sea Service Muskets that had been japanned . Japanning was a common Royal Navy practice
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 6, 2007
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            Ron,

            I suspect the reference to "Black Muskets" probably referred to Sea Service
            Muskets that had been "japanned". Japanning was a common Royal Navy practice
            during the period for muskets borne aboard warships.



            Fair Winds,

            Jim Pierce
            "A drop of Nelson's Blood wouldn't do us any harm"





            >From: ronaldjdale@...
            >Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            >To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: [War Of 1812] Carbines and Fusils
            >Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 10:23:36 -0400
            >
            >A number of years ago I was looking at lists of stores in the arsenal at
            >Quebec.?? There were a number of "Black Muskets" in stores just before the
            >war.? These later morphed into carbines and later?became India Pattern
            >muskets.?? This all makes sense if the norm for the Canadas was still Short
            >Land Pattern.? The India Pattern, originally for arming the East India
            >Company army, could be referred to as a "Black Musket" not because of its
            >colour but in reference to those expected to shoulder them.? The reference
            >to carbine makes sense given the shorter barrel (39" vs 42").? However,
            >whether or not these were ever issued to anyone other than Provincials or
            >Militia escapes my memory.
            >
            >The Inspection Return for the 41st on Oct 11, 1809 indicates that there
            >were no fusils issued to the regiment and that four were "wanting."? They
            >were still "wanting" in the return of June 1810 but had been received by
            >the time of the May 1811 return.? The 10th Royal Veterans showed that none
            >were issued and none wanting in that regiment.
            >
            >In a?Return of Small Arms etc?at Fort George in June, 1812, ?the following
            >are of interest:?
            >
            >1553 English Musquets
            >1030 French Musquets
            >16, 738 Flints Musquets
            >60,000 English Musquet cartridge and ball
            >140,000 French Musquet cartridge and ball
            >666 Carbine Musquet cartridge and ball
            >11.10 lbs of Dutch thread
            >10.0 ditto of twine
            >2, 140 Paper dozen sheets
            >64, 200 English lead musquet balls
            >
            >French muskets are .69 calibre.? Obviously the carbine cartridges contain a
            >ball that is neither .69 nor .75 calibre.?? No pistol balls are listed.
            >
            >Ron
            >
            >
            >
            >
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            >
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          • J.Bruce Whittaker
            ... Service ... practice ... Greetings List, For those who may not know what japanning is: it was the painting wood or metal to copy the lacquer ware that
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 6, 2007
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              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Pierce" <highlandpeat@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ron,
              >
              > I suspect the reference to "Black Muskets" probably referred to Sea
              Service
              > Muskets that had been "japanned". Japanning was a common Royal Navy
              practice
              > during the period for muskets borne aboard warships.

              Greetings List,
              For those who may not know what "japanning" is: it was the painting
              wood or metal to copy the lacquer ware that was coming from Japan
              during the period. It was usually black paint and varnish. It copied
              the look of the lacquer ware that was coming from Japan. The Japanese
              had the lacquer trees to make the lacquer finish but were not inclined
              to disclose the secret of its manufacture to the West. Or so I have
              been told. Of course it protected the muskets from rusting aboard ships.
              Regards,
              Bruce Whittaker
            • BritcomHMP@aol.com
              In a message dated 06/09/2007 10:22:26 Central Standard Time, ortheris@rogers.com writes: The Japanese had the lacquer trees to make the lacquer finish but
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 6, 2007
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                In a message dated 06/09/2007 10:22:26 Central Standard Time,
                ortheris@... writes:

                The Japanese
                had the lacquer trees to make the lacquer finish but were not inclined
                to disclose the secret of its manufacture to the West. Or so I have
                been told. Of course it protected the muskets from rusting aboard ships.



                -------------------------------------------------

                This process was also used on metal sword scabbards on campaign. I have a
                very nice 1796 pattern Lt. Cavalry sword with a scabbard treated in this manner.
                I was extremely lucky in that when I bought it I was about to clean this off
                until I did a little research. Still that was 25 years ago!

                Cheers,

                Tim



                ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
                http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dale Kidd
                Bruce, et al: If I may take your explanation a step further... The japanning on muskets was a coating which was brushed and then baked onto the metal parts.
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 6, 2007
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                  Bruce, et al:

                  If I may take your explanation a step further...

                  The japanning on muskets was a coating which was brushed and then
                  baked onto the metal parts. When finished, it was shiny black in
                  appearance, similar to the black laquered pottery imported from Japan.
                  Sea Service muskets used by the Navy (except Marines, whose muskets
                  were kept "in the white")often had all of the external steel except
                  the pan cover japanned... barrel, lock plate/pan, hammer, trigger, and
                  ramrod (on later model with steel rammer). In some cases, there is
                  even evidence of brass fittings having been japanned as well.

                  I am actually quite looking forward to getting myself a Sea Service
                  pattern musket at some point down the road, and blackening the steel
                  parts to a "japanned" black finish (though I will doubtless take the
                  easy way out, and duplicate the effect with a modern heat-resistant
                  spray paint). It should make maintaining the darn thing a great deal
                  less onerous. In fact, if anyone has a good reliable Sea Service
                  pattern Bess they're looking to dump, I'd be willing to trade a Third
                  (India) Pattern for it.

                  ~Dale

                  PS. Bruce, it was great to finally meet you, and I look forward to
                  seeing you again in the future.


                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "J.Bruce Whittaker" <ortheris@...>
                  wrote:
                  > For those who may not know what "japanning" is: it was the painting
                  > wood or metal to copy the lacquer ware that was coming from Japan
                  > during the period. It was usually black paint and varnish. It copied
                  > the look of the lacquer ware that was coming from Japan. The Japanese
                  > had the lacquer trees to make the lacquer finish but were not
                  inclined
                  > to disclose the secret of its manufacture to the West. Or so I have
                  > been told. Of course it protected the muskets from rusting aboard
                  ships.
                  > Regards,
                  > Bruce Whittaker
                  >
                • Patrick Schifferdecker
                  The original formula for Barrel Black this was: To one gallon of vinegar add a quarter of a pound of iron rust, let it stand for one week; then add a pound of
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 6, 2007
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                    The original formula for Barrel Black this was: "To one gallon of
                    vinegar add a quarter of a pound of iron rust, let it stand for one
                    week; then add a pound of lamp black and three quarters of a pound
                    of copperas; stir it up at intervals for a couple of days. Lay five
                    to six coats on the gun with a sponge, allowing it to dry well
                    between each application; polish with linseed oil and soft woollen
                    rag; it will look like ebony."

                    --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Dale Kidd" <ucpm_gunner@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Bruce, et al:
                    >
                    > If I may take your explanation a step further...
                    >
                    > The japanning on muskets was a coating which was brushed and then
                    > baked onto the metal parts. When finished, it was shiny black in
                    > appearance, similar to the black laquered pottery imported from
                    Japan.
                    > Sea Service muskets used by the Navy (except Marines, whose
                    muskets
                    > were kept "in the white")often had all of the external steel
                    except
                    > the pan cover japanned... barrel, lock plate/pan, hammer, trigger,
                    and
                    > ramrod (on later model with steel rammer). In some cases, there is
                    > even evidence of brass fittings having been japanned as well.
                    >
                    > I am actually quite looking forward to getting myself a Sea
                    Service
                    > pattern musket at some point down the road, and blackening the
                    steel
                    > parts to a "japanned" black finish (though I will doubtless take
                    the
                    > easy way out, and duplicate the effect with a modern heat-
                    resistant
                    > spray paint). It should make maintaining the darn thing a great
                    deal
                    > less onerous. In fact, if anyone has a good reliable Sea Service
                    > pattern Bess they're looking to dump, I'd be willing to trade a
                    Third
                    > (India) Pattern for it.
                    >
                    > ~Dale
                    >
                    > PS. Bruce, it was great to finally meet you, and I look forward to
                    > seeing you again in the future.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "J.Bruce Whittaker" <ortheris@>
                    > wrote:
                    > > For those who may not know what "japanning" is: it was the
                    painting
                    > > wood or metal to copy the lacquer ware that was coming from Japan
                    > > during the period. It was usually black paint and varnish. It
                    copied
                    > > the look of the lacquer ware that was coming from Japan. The
                    Japanese
                    > > had the lacquer trees to make the lacquer finish but were not
                    > inclined
                    > > to disclose the secret of its manufacture to the West. Or so I
                    have
                    > > been told. Of course it protected the muskets from rusting
                    aboard
                    > ships.
                    > > Regards,
                    > > Bruce Whittaker
                    > >
                    >
                  • ronaldjdale@netscape.net
                    Thanks Jim amd Bruce, But the point is that the same muskets in stores were progressively known as black muskets, then carbines and finally India
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 6, 2007
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                      Thanks Jim amd Bruce,



                      But the point is that the same muskets in stores were progressively known as "black muskets, " then "carbines" and finally India Patterns, if I recall correctly.? I will have to dig through my filing cabinet to refresh my memory on the exact reference.? If I recall, in the same batch of information was a reference to cutting down highland swords for issue to Provincial dragoons.



                      Ron




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                    • Jim Pierce
                      But the point is that the same muskets in stores were progressively known as black muskets, then carbines and finally India Patterns, if I recall
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 6, 2007
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                        But the point is that the same muskets in stores were progressively known as "black muskets, " then "carbines" and finally India Patterns, if I recall correctly.?

                        Ron,

                        I, for one, would enjoy seeing the reference you have in your files. It may make things easier. As for my original assertion that I suspect the muskets you refer to as "black" being sea service models...I'll stand by that guess for now on the premise that Quebec is, after all, a port and Sea Services, while varying in length, did tend to be shorter than army issued muskets (could that account for them being referred to as carbines?).

                        As to the contention that they were India Pattern Bess's? They absolutely could be technically, as Sea Service patterns were really just simpler versions (less hardware etc) of the various Bess patterns.

                        Fair Winds,

                        Jim Pierce
                        "A drop of Nelson's Blood wouldn't do us any harm"

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • ronaldjdale@netscape.net
                        My excavations into my files has begun and it seems that the files trump my aging memory. I see in a Return of Small Arms, etc., Quebec, June 30, 1812, (RG
                        Message 11 of 12 , Sep 7, 2007
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                          My excavations into my files has begun and it seems that the files trump my aging memory.



                          I see in a "Return of Small Arms, etc.," Quebec, June 30, 1812, (RG 8, C-386, p. 61) that there were 600 English Musquets, 660 Black Musquets,? and 521 Carbines in stores.?? Ammunition was of two types:? English musquet and Carbine.?Thus, my memory that the carbines were in fact India Patterns is proved mistaken.?? The carbines are a different calibre and the "Black" muskets are obviously the same calibre as the English musket.?? In May of that year, the Ordnance stores in Quebec had shipped off "Five hundred carbines directed to be browned on the barrels" to be shipped to the Canadian Voltigeurs.? (C-386, p. 50).



                          On November 24, 1813, the Ordnance Office?at Quebec reported? that they had in stores 170 French musquets, 6,551 English musquets, 958 Black musquets, and 190 carbines.? They also had almost 5,000 sets of buff accoutrements.

                          I have a note to the effect that India Patterns had been sent out and lodged in the Quebec Stores in the spring of 1813 and this led me to believe that the Black muskets were India Patterns.? However, I must keep digging to find a document on that.? In the meantime, they may very well have been sea service muskets that had been japanned.

                          Ron

                          ?

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                        • Larry Lozon
                          Patrick Schifferdecker wrote: The original formula for Barrel Black this was: To one gallon of vinegar add a quarter of a pound of iron rust, let it stand
                          Message 12 of 12 , Sep 7, 2007
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                            "Patrick Schifferdecker" wrote:

                            The original formula for Barrel Black this was: "To one gallon of
                            vinegar add a quarter of a pound of iron rust, let it stand for one
                            week; then add a pound of lamp black and three quarters of a pound
                            of copperas; stir it up at intervals for a couple of days. Lay five
                            to six coats on the gun with a sponge, allowing it to dry well
                            between each application; polish with linseed oil and soft woollen
                            rag; it will look like ebony."



                            Or for those who wear modern shoes and polyester uniforms


                            "Two coats of TREMCLAD (RUSTOEUM) Paint and a good coat of floor
                            paste wax"

                            Yrs.,
                            L2
                            PS: Or for those who wear modern shoes and polyester uniforms


                            Two coats of TREMCLAD (RUSTOEUM) Paint and a good coat of floor paste
                            wax

                            I was prodded into posting this

                            Yrs.,
                            L2
                            Or for those who wear modern shoes and polyester uniforms


                            Two coats of TREMCLAD (RUSTOEUM) Paint and a good coat of floor paste
                            wax



                            Yrs.,
                            L2
                            PS: I was prodded into posting this, but have used this method and it
                            works!
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