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Re: [War Of 1812] Bladensburg Flags

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  • LCpl_rm
    Folks, we discussed these colours once before, specifically Apr 05. Ross never mentioned in his dispatches of any colours being captured and he was meticulous
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 1, 2007
      Folks, we discussed these colours once before, specifically Apr 05.

      Ross never mentioned in his dispatches of any colours being captured and he was meticulous enough to note how many horses were killed as well as a note from the AQM as to the quantity of arms and cannons, sizes notated, captured and destroyed.

      Neither of the units whose colours are on display at Shropshire were at Bladensburg and at the time it was written:

      "The interesting thing about the two flags is that neither unit is listed as
      having been at Bladensburg! As there were several other excursions, both in
      Maryland and Virginia where the Army was landed and was in combat, quite
      possibly the colours where taken at one of those.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      I tried uploading a bigger picture which was a .bmp but Yahoo would not accept
      it; only .jpg and .tif. I will try reformatting and send it again later.

      Meanwhile I also found the notes which accompanied the flag picture. Seems that
      the white flag is indeed that of the 68th (James City Light Infantry) which was
      more likely captured at Hampton instead of Bladensburg. The colour was captured
      by the 1st Batt Royal Marines and presented to Sir Sydney Beckwith. An
      additional colour of the 1st Batt, 85th (Virginia Militia) was apparently also
      presented. Both were then in turn given to Admiral Warren. The 68th flag
      somehow made its way to Chelsea and eventually to the Shropshire Museum.

      One of the things mentioned was the fact that Glieg (of the 85th) in his
      "Narratives" never mentions the fact that a colour was captured. Neither does
      the accompanying "Subaltern in America". But the "History of the Royal Marines
      Forces" does relate the above presentation!

      Does anyone know the American regiments present at Hampton in June 1813?

      Cheers,

      Ed Seufert, Cpl
      1812 Royal Marines
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Peter,

      Thanks for the details.

      According to the article that accompanied the pictures, the colours were
      identiied as being captured by the 85th sometime in the 1830's. In gives no
      indication (and there seems to be none) when they actually arrived at the
      hospital.

      Warren upon receipt of the colours supposedly said that they should properly go
      back to the Royal Marines. Since the battalions after their brief stay in the
      Chesapeake in 1813 wound up in Canada and then were subsequently broken up, I
      would feel that they probably got shipped home with some of the wounded. The
      staffs of the two battalions wound up back in the Chesapeake late in 1814. Were
      Marines allowed at Chelsea or did they wind up at Greenwich?

      Ed Seufert, Cpl
      1812 Royal Marines

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: PETER CATLEY
      To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 3:13 AM
      Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] State Militia flags?

      Ed,

      More information, perhaps more than you need!

      This may well have been Rev. GR Gleig, Chaplin to the
      Royal Hospital at Chelsea from 1834 until he resigned
      in 1848. He died in 1888 aged 92 therefore born 1796.

      Gleig had cerved in the Army before taking up the
      ministry. He later was the Chaplin-General and wrote
      extensively including Chelsea Pensioners, Chelsea
      hospital and its Traditions and the Veterans of
      Chelsea Hospital ~ If anyone has any of these in the
      attic I 'd love to know:-)

      Cheers

      P**
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: tedyeat
      To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:32 PM
      Subject: [War Of 1812] Bladensburg Flags


      I just downloaded the pictures posted from the museum. Question; is
      the "James City Light Infantry" of the 38th U.S. Regulars or a 38th
      Md.? Enquiring minds would like to know....

      YH&OS,
      T. Yeatman





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • suthren@magma.ca
      The question of the return of Colours and other trophies of war taken at a time when Britain, Canada and the United Staes were at war has continued to be a
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 2, 2007
        The question of the return of Colours and other trophies of war taken at a time when Britain, Canada and the United Staes were at war has continued to be a source of discussion (without much result) on all sides since the virtually permanent friendship and alliance between us came into being. President Franklin D Roosevelt made a welcome gesture in the 1930s when he returned to the Ontario Legislature the Mace which had been taken away by Dearborn's troops in 1813 from York (Toronto), and the Province of Prince Edward Island is still seeking the return from American hands of the Great Seal of the Province, carried off by Massachusetts privateers in 1775. Queries to the US Naval Academy about the possible return or loan of the Colours of Barclay's ships taken at Put-in Bay in 1813 are politely refused. American colours and other trophies hung in UK churches or kept in museums---and even private collections---suffer for the most part the same fate. In an era when our 'grunts'---American, British, Canadian---are fighting it out shoulder-to-shoulder with the Taliban in Afghanistan (unlike most of the rest of NATO), it seems a pity that all three nations could not consider the 'trophies' of that long-ago war as shared artifacts from a vanished era that all of us could enjoy as allies and friends. Perhaps some day.

        Vic Suthren
        Naval Establishment
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Brian Howard
        To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 3:20 PM
        Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] Bladensburg Flags


        Ted,

        My understanding is that it is of the James City Light
        Infantry, James City County, Virginia and it was
        captured at the battle of Hampton on June 25th, 1813.
        The Hampton History Museum apparently is studying the
        possibility of having the colors sent home to Virginia
        but am not aware of any progress. I have been wrong
        before.

        Brian Howard
        Fort Norfolk Garrison, 1812-183

        --- tedyeat <tedyeat@...> wrote:

        > I just downloaded the pictures posted from the
        > museum. Question; is
        > the "James City Light Infantry" of the 38th U.S.
        > Regulars or a 38th
        > Md.? Enquiring minds would like to know....
        >
        > YH&OS,
        > T. Yeatman
        >
        >

        __________________________________________________________
        Got a little couch potato?
        Check out fun summer activities for kids.
        http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Todd Post
        Vic, Why give them back when you can sell them for millions of dollars? The very first flags associated with a Virginia regiment from the American Revolution
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 2, 2007
          Vic,

          Why give them back when you can sell them for millions of dollars?
          The very first flags associated with a Virginia regiment from the
          American Revolution surfaced officially last year along with a
          cavalry flag that had been in the Tarleton family since they were
          captured during the American Revolution, hanging out of sight from
          the public in the ancestral home. Collectively the four flags were
          sold to a private bidder for $17 million and have gone into obscurity
          again.

          I don't have a problem so much with "trophies of war". We have
          German colors from the Revolution at the Smithsonian and the British
          have American colors at Chelsea Hospital. As long as they are
          properly conserved and the public has access to them (even if by
          special appointment, white gloves, signing over your first born...).
          I do have a problem with the artifacts that remain hidden and
          private, or worse secret, that can have a profound affect on our
          understanding of the material culture of a past conflict.

          I've often wondered how many of the answers we are puzzled by
          regarding what a flag, uniform, or piece of equipment looked like
          could be solved by going through Great Aunt Mildred's attic and
          letting some family heirlooms see the light of day. That's why it
          amazes me when living history impressions remain the same as they
          were ten years ago when all the time new documentation comes to light
          because some artifact that had been tucked away somewhere has finally
          been given the light of day.

          Cheers,
          Todd Post

          On Aug 2, 2007, at 3:51 PM, <suthren@...> <suthren@...> wrote:

          > The question of the return of Colours and other trophies of war
          > taken at a time when Britain, Canada and the United Staes were at
          > war has continued to be a source of discussion (without much
          > result) on all sides since the virtually permanent friendship and
          > alliance between us came into being. President Franklin D Roosevelt
          > made a welcome gesture in the 1930s when he returned to the Ontario
          > Legislature the Mace which had been taken away by Dearborn's troops
          > in 1813 from York (Toronto), and the Province of Prince Edward
          > Island is still seeking the return from American hands of the Great
          > Seal of the Province, carried off by Massachusetts privateers in
          > 1775. Queries to the US Naval Academy about the possible return or
          > loan of the Colours of Barclay's ships taken at Put-in Bay in 1813
          > are politely refused. American colours and other trophies hung in
          > UK churches or kept in museums---and even private collections---
          > suffer for the most part the same fate. In an era when our
          > 'grunts'---American, British, Canadian---are fighting it out
          > shoulder-to-shoulder with the Taliban in Afghanistan (unlike most
          > of the rest of NATO), it seems a pity that all three nations could
          > not consider the 'trophies' of that long-ago war as shared
          > artifacts from a vanished era that all of us could enjoy as allies
          > and friends. Perhaps some day.
          >
          > Vic Suthren
          > Naval Establishment
        • LCpl_rm
          Spikey, Touche ! Ted, You said a lot of I think s and I thought s. Facts is facts and the only unit to actually stand and fight was Barney s Flotillamen and
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 2, 2007
            Spikey,

            Touche'!

            Ted,

            You said a lot of "I think"s and "I thought"s. Facts is facts and the only
            unit to actually stand and fight was Barney's Flotillamen and his
            accompanying Marines (See Colin's book!) and I doubt they had colours. Like
            Spike said, most of the American units were too happy to vacate the field
            carrying everything and everybody before them including whatever colours
            were there. For the lack of cavalry, the British could not catch them.

            Again, neither Ross, Smith, Cockburn, Glieg, the Subaltern or John Corbett
            say anything about capturing colours at Bladensburg. And they did take
            their time marching into Washington which allowed the Americans to destroy
            the Navy Yard and Arsenal. And the AQM took the time to write all the
            captured ordnance down.

            Cheers,

            Ed Seufert, Cpl
            1812 Royal Marines
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "spikeyj" <spikeyj@...>
            To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>; <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 9:26 PM
            Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] Bladensburg Flags


            > On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 01:19:06 -0000
            > "tedyeat" <tedyeat@...> wrote:
            >> What I find odd is how there WOULDN'T be some flags taken
            >> at Bladensburg.It was one of the worst defeats in
            > American
            >> military history. Were the British in THAT big a hurry?
            >
            > Or were the retreating USAn units in such a hurry that they
            > left the path of the oncoming British before they and their
            > colours could be overrun?
            >
            > Spike Y Jones
            > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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          • tedyeat
            Ed, I never assume that something isn t out there. If I had my book FRANK AND JESSE JAMES never would have been finalist for the 2001 Spur Award for Best
            Message 5 of 5 , Aug 3, 2007
              Ed,

              I never assume that something isn't out there. If I had my book FRANK
              AND JESSE JAMES never would have been finalist for the 2001 Spur
              Award for Best Western Biography. I found all sorts of information
              that people assumed didn't exist. The Pinkerton letters about the
              raid on the James Farm in 1875 is a case in point. The letters
              themselves probably ended up in a stove or fireplace on the receiving
              end, but the letterpress copies that Allan Pinkerton kept told a good
              bit. Transcripts are in an appendix to the book. My discovery of
              these merited an AP Wire service feature that went as far as
              Australia, at least, and I was interviewed by the CBC for the radio
              program "As It Happens".

              In the late 1960's I hunted the C.W. battlefield at Nashville. An
              army in full flight drops all sorts of stuff. John P. Kenedy
              mentioned dropping his musket at Bladensburg. Todd Post is right
              about new things turning up. Maybe there's a flag or two out there.
              Even if they were brought back off the field, I have to wonder what
              became of these.

              YH&OS
              T. Yeatman

              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "LCpl_rm" <LCpl_RM@...> wrote:
              >
              > Spikey,
              >
              > Touche'!
              >
              > Ted,
              >
              > You said a lot of "I think"s and "I thought"s. Facts is facts and
              the only
              > unit to actually stand and fight was Barney's Flotillamen and his
              > accompanying Marines (See Colin's book!) and I doubt they had
              colours. Like
              > Spike said, most of the American units were too happy to vacate the
              field
              > carrying everything and everybody before them including whatever
              colours
              > were there. For the lack of cavalry, the British could not catch
              them.
              >
              > Again, neither Ross, Smith, Cockburn, Glieg, the Subaltern or John
              Corbett
              > say anything about capturing colours at Bladensburg. And they did
              take
              > their time marching into Washington which allowed the Americans to
              destroy
              > the Navy Yard and Arsenal. And the AQM took the time to write all
              the
              > captured ordnance down.
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > Ed Seufert, Cpl
              > 1812 Royal Marines
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "spikeyj" <spikeyj@...>
              > To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>; <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 9:26 PM
              > Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] Bladensburg Flags
              >
              >
              > > On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 01:19:06 -0000
              > > "tedyeat" <tedyeat@...> wrote:
              > >> What I find odd is how there WOULDN'T be some flags taken
              > >> at Bladensburg.It was one of the worst defeats in
              > > American
              > >> military history. Were the British in THAT big a hurry?
              > >
              > > Or were the retreating USAn units in such a hurry that they
              > > left the path of the oncoming British before they and their
              > > colours could be overrun?
              > >
              > > Spike Y Jones
              > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
              ---
              > > Web mail provided by NuNet, Inc. The Premier National provider.
              > > http://www.nni.com/
              > >
              > >
              > > War of 1812 Living History:
              > > A wide-ranging information exchange
              > > for all participants and supporters
              > >
              > >
              > > Unit Contact information for North America:
              > > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
              > > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
              > > American Forces Unit Listing
              > > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
              > >
              > > WAR OF 1812 EVENTS LIST:
              > > http://royal.scots.tripod.com/warof1812eventslist
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
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