Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

1812

Expand Messages
  • Betsy Bashore
    Rob- We re new to your list, but not to 1812 or to the education of the masses. Both the US and Canada have a difficult time distinguishing national pride
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 18, 1999
    • 0 Attachment
      Rob-
      We're new to your list, but not to 1812 or to the education of the
      masses. Both the US and Canada have a difficult time distinguishing
      national pride from the reality of the past. History is also open to
      interpretation, lest we forget than and all be out of a hobby. Our home
      is in Ohio-- We live on the ground where the British built their
      batteries and defeated Dudley's party during May and July of 1813. When
      We teach the subject of Ohio's involvement in the War of 1812, We
      clarify that, while the losers are clearly identifyable, the winners may
      be less so.

      In the narrow interpretation of victory, the British won. Yes, the U.S.
      declared War. Yes, they had many obstacles to overcome in their
      formation of the armies and the defense of their borders. Yes, we
      signed a treaty of peace with Britain without taking Cananda.

      To the United States, though, the War of 1812 remains a formative period
      and was a popular topic for study through the 1880's (when it was
      overshadowed by the calalmaties of the Civil War).
      On the serious side--
      �Thames and the invasion of Cananda, Battle of Lake Erie, Plattsburg,
      Bladensburg, Chippewa, Lundy's Lane (read the U.S. versions too boys)
      and, finally New Orleans. For a nation ill prepared for war, we didn't
      doo too bad against the second greatest military machine of the early
      19th century.
      �The U.S. expereinced an enormous growth in population and confidence
      after the war. After the conclusion of the war (1816) , the U.S. navy
      defeats the Tripolitans in the Medditeranian.
      �Though the Civil War removes the U.S. from the world stage, 20th
      century history reflects the dynamic industrialism catalized during the
      War of 1812 and the dramatic expansion of such during the Civil War.
      Evidenced by-- U.S. involvements in WWI and II (to aid their former foes
      the British) and the lend lease programs (we are not poor losers)

      On the more satirical side--
      �While we had to keep Detroit, you had to keep Quebec.
      �Where do you shop when the CDN dollar is strong?
      �Where do we shop now that Canada is 40% off.
      �We may have Bill, but you've got Cretian (its close to his name-- our
      second language is Spanish.)

      Finally, points like this do noting to further scholarship and do much
      to enflame sometime strained relations between Canandian and U.S.
      reenactors. You've got your points of national pride, we have ours.
      The American claim to winning the war of 1812 stems, untimately, from
      the American myth of triumph over overwhelming odds.

      Betsy and Rob

      P.S. This begs the question, why, when the average Joe in Canada seems
      to know as much about the War of 1812 as the Average Yank and each side
      has equally impressive myths about the War of 1812, does this issue
      occupy center stage in today's debates-- discussion groups usually
      attempt to be mind expanding, not intent on reinforcing our stereotypes
      and prejudices.
    • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
      In a message dated 2/18/99 4:24:05 PM Central Standard Time, bashore@earthlink.net writes:
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 18, 1999
      • 0 Attachment
        In a message dated 2/18/99 4:24:05 PM Central Standard Time,
        bashore@... writes:

        << For a nation ill prepared for war, we didn't
        doo too bad against the second greatest military machine of the early
        19th century. >>

        And the greatest would be? Surely you can't be thinking of the 'machine' that
        came to a grinding halt in Spain? The one that ended up being 'Blownapart' by
        the Anglo-Prussians at Waterloo? Naaa! Couldn't be!

        Cheers

        Tim
      • Rob Taylor
        Who won the War of 1812 ... You know I asked this question because I got an e:mail from a gentleman who said in graphic language that the U.S. won the War. I
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 18, 1999
        • 0 Attachment
          Who won the War of 1812 ... You know I asked this question because I
          got an e:mail from a gentleman who said in graphic language that the
          U.S. won the War. I said in my studies of this conflict I did not find
          this to be true. So I decided to ask the question here... I asked why
          do some Americans feel that they won the War of 1812. Here is another
          e:mail:

          "It depends on what you think the goal was. If you think the goal
          was to get Canada, you'll think the U.S. did'nt win. If you think the
          goal was to eliminate the Indian threat to the western states you'll
          think the U.S. won."

          And again in my studies the British, Canadians and native people
          won this war. No offence intended to anyone. It is quite possible I
          have yet to read the books that say otherwise.

          Rob


          ==
          War of 1812 Website: http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/
        • Roger Fuller
          ... From: Rob Taylor To: WarOf1812@onelist.com Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 8:38 PM Subject:
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 18, 1999
          • 0 Attachment
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@...>
            To: WarOf1812@onelist.com <WarOf1812@onelist.com>
            Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 8:38 PM
            Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: 1812


            >From: Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@...>
            >
            >Who won the War of 1812 ... You know I asked this question because I
            >got an e:mail from a gentleman who said in graphic language that the
            >U.S. won the War. I said in my studies of this conflict I did not find
            >this to be true. So I decided to ask the question here... I asked why
            >do some Americans feel that they won the War of 1812. Here is another
            >e:mail:
            >
            > "It depends on what you think the goal was. If you think the goal
            >was to get Canada, you'll think the U.S. did'nt win. If you think the
            >goal was to eliminate the Indian threat to the western states you'll
            >think the U.S. won."
            >
            > And again in my studies the British, Canadians and native people
            >won this war. No offence intended to anyone. It is quite possible I
            >have yet to read the books that say otherwise.
            >
            > Rob
            >
            >
            >==
            >War of 1812 Website: http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/
            >
            >
            >No, Rob- don't feel dissuaded. You should IMHO continue asking the hard
            questions that must be asked, or else our research and reenacting become a
            dry academic exercise with no meaning beyond our armchairs where we would be
            left sitting, to contemplate these issues silently and alone, out of fear of
            offending someone.

            Who says the War of 1812 is boring, eh?

            RF
            3/95th
          • Paul W. Schulz
            ... From: Roger Fuller To: WarOf1812@onelist.com Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 8:46 PM Subject:
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 18, 1999
            • 0 Attachment
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Roger Fuller <fullerfamily@...>
              To: WarOf1812@onelist.com <WarOf1812@onelist.com>
              Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 8:46 PM
              Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: 1812


              >From: "Roger Fuller" <fullerfamily@...>
              >
              >
              >-----Original Message-----
              >From: Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@...>
              >To: WarOf1812@onelist.com <WarOf1812@onelist.com>
              >Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 8:38 PM
              >Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: 1812
              >
              >
              >>From: Rob Taylor <niagara_falls_98@...>
              >>
              >>Who won the War of 1812 ... You know I asked this question because I
              >>got an e:mail from a gentleman who said in graphic language that the
              >>U.S. won the War. I said in my studies of this conflict I did not find
              >>this to be true. So I decided to ask the question here... I asked why
              >>do some Americans feel that they won the War of 1812. Here is another
              >>e:mail:
              >>
              >> "It depends on what you think the goal was. If you think the goal
              >>was to get Canada, you'll think the U.S. did'nt win. If you think the
              >>goal was to eliminate the Indian threat to the western states you'll
              >>think the U.S. won."
              >>
              >> And again in my studies the British, Canadians and native people
              >>won this war. No offence intended to anyone. It is quite possible I
              >>have yet to read the books that say otherwise.
              >>
              >> Rob
              >>
              >>
              >>==
              >>War of 1812 Website: http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/
              >>
              >>
              >>No, Rob- don't feel dissuaded. You should IMHO continue asking the hard
              >questions that must be asked, or else our research and reenacting become a
              >dry academic exercise with no meaning beyond our armchairs where we would
              be
              >left sitting, to contemplate these issues silently and alone, out of fear
              of
              >offending someone.
              >
              >Who says the War of 1812 is boring, eh?
              >
              >RF
              >3/95th
              >
              >
              >Rob,
              For God sake sir don't apologize. You asked a question that is based on
              facts, but as with any truth the interpretation is high ly dependant upon
              your point of veiw. I enjoyed responding to it and I could not agree with
              Roger more than I do. Please ask....
              Paul Schulz
              4th Us Rt. of Inf
              Snelling's Co.
              >------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >New hobbies? New interests? Sign up for a new ONElist community.
              >http://www.onelist.com
              >------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
              square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
              square miles...
            • mmathews@xxxx.xxxxxx.xxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
              ... And who would you nominate in it s place, Tim (he asks naively)? Surely not the army of the Low Countries, Buenes Aires, Tarrifa and Bergan-Op-Zoom? ;-)
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 22, 1999
              • 0 Attachment
                >From: BritcomHMP@...
                >
                >In a message dated 2/18/99 4:24:05 PM Central Standard Time,
                >bashore@... writes:
                >
                ><< For a nation ill prepared for war, we didn't
                > doo too bad against the second greatest military machine of the early
                > 19th century. >>
                >
                >And the greatest would be? Surely you can't be thinking of the 'machine' that
                >came to a grinding halt in Spain? The one that ended up being 'Blownapart' by
                >the Anglo-Prussians at Waterloo? Naaa! Couldn't be!

                And who would you nominate in it's place, Tim (he asks naively)? Surely
                not the army of the Low Countries, Buenes Aires, Tarrifa and
                Bergan-Op-Zoom? ;-)

                It seems that unless it was under the hand of the Master (as opposed to the
                Grandmaster), it was just another well-trained small army. BTW, glad you
                gave the Germans a share of credit for Waterloo!

                Your friend, teasing all the way,

                Michael
                3e Cie, 21e R�giment de Ligne

                Michael Mathews -- ITV Specialist
                Winona State University
                Voice: (507) 285-7585 Fax: (507) 280-5568
                ------------------------------
                "Loyalty to pertified opinion never broke a chain
                or freed a human soul" -- Mark Twain
              • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
                In a message dated 2/22/99 11:25:58 AM Central Standard Time, mmathews@VAX2.WINONA.MSUS.EDU writes:
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 23, 1999
                • 0 Attachment
                  In a message dated 2/22/99 11:25:58 AM Central Standard Time,
                  mmathews@... writes:

                  << And who would you nominate in it's place, Tim (he asks naively)? Surely
                  not the army of the Low Countries, Buenes Aires, Tarrifa and
                  Bergan-Op-Zoom? ;-) >>

                  Of course not! The one that went to Spain originally under Moore (of blessed
                  memory) and honed by 'Old Hooky' . However don't disparage Bergan-Op -Zoom as
                  a junior officer of the 33rd Foot remarked at the time "At least I have
                  learned what NOT to do!" To my mind that's the difference, the work a day
                  soldier who took nothing for granted and covered every angle, and the genius
                  who just trusted that luck would always be with him. In the end it wasn't.

                  Cheers

                  Tim
                • Betsy Bashore
                  Who-hoo! These arrive every day, right? I d like to clarify the Barney Fife militia portrayal-- I see far too many folks who want to represent militia,
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 24, 1999
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Who-hoo! These arrive every day, right? I'd like to clarify the Barney
                    Fife militia portrayal-- I see far too many folks who want to represent
                    militia, particularly American, as local yokels too stupid to pour pee
                    out of a boot etc. Now I know the rare story of the Ohio militia man
                    who was so afraid to fire his rifle (from home) at the muster that when
                    his mother later accosted him for his poor performance, he showed her he
                    could fire by blowing the 8 rounds he had loaded at the muster (and not
                    fired) at once through the roof of her house. Yet, most accounts of
                    Ohio and Kentucy militia attest to their diligence to their military
                    duty and their tenacity on the field. I ask myself how I would feel if
                    my great..... grandfather was portrayed that way.

                    For Indian info from a rather good impartial perpective I recommend THE
                    MIDDLE GROUND by Richard White-- this is my favorite text because it
                    encompasses the 60 years of native/white warfare on the Ohio frontier.
                    It provides an impartial discription of the War of 1812 but focuses
                    rather heavily on British allied natives and excludes important
                    information on US allied Shawnee, Delaware and Seneca. I would also
                    recommend THE LETTER BOOK OF THE INDIAN AGENCY AT FORT WAYNE ed. by
                    Gayle Thornbough-- details annutities and general relations with allied
                    and hostile natives alike. An interesting account of the Prophet
                    arriving empty handed at the agency with his band, eating them out of
                    stores, then speaking at length to his followers and fellow natives - in
                    plain view of the agency-- about the benefits of joining the British
                    forces. You just cant please everyone.

                    Another interesting account of native use of rifles is drawn from Knopfs
                    Document Transcriptions and describes natives, perched in trees, firing
                    ineffectually into Fort Meigs from the North side of the river. American
                    riflemen fired back and, with random luck, actually plucked at least one
                    native from the tree. The supposed tree described was marked by the
                    City of Maumee and existed in the downtown area until the 1960's.

                    And Sean-- just don't steal the ladder again, we know how to retrieve it
                    now.

                    Betsy
                  • Dave&Monica Bosse
                    I have been told that the US lost the war but one the peace of this war. That sounded pretty fair. But it took till 1823 to defind the boarder of Maine and
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 5, 2000
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I have been told that the US lost the war but one the peace of this war.
                      That sounded pretty fair. But it took till 1823 to defind the boarder of Maine and Canada. But there is one thing we can never take from Canada.....The best strip joints in North America!

                      Dave Bosse
                      Americas Friend


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • lalozon
                      From: Craig Williams Larry et al, Submitted for your approval... I have contacted Mr. Redmond off-list about this, as I agree with
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 6, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        From: "Craig Williams" <sgtwarner@...>

                        Larry et al,

                        Submitted for your approval...

                        I have contacted Mr. Redmond off-list about this, as I agree with him, in
                        that the comment made by Mr. Stott was motivated by modern politics,
                        (terrorism), and not on the passport issue itself. The continued references
                        to the original comment were not about re-enacting but rather about the war
                        on terrorism and all persons, (including myself), were choosing to talk
                        terrorist war when the issue was passports.

                        The three things you should never talk about in polite conversation are
                        politics, religion, and white shoes!

                        Craig Williams







                        Mr. Williams

                        Sir,

                        As always I bow to your wisdom .......

                        Your Humble Servant

                        L. Lozon
                      • johnogden@darksleep.com
                        All- White shoes? Am I missing something? John Ogden
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 6, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          All-
                          White shoes? Am I missing something?

                          John Ogden
                          >
                          > From: "Craig Williams" <sgtwarner@...>
                          >
                          > Larry et al,
                          >
                          > Submitted for your approval...
                          >
                          > I have contacted Mr. Redmond off-list about this, as I agree with him,
                          > in
                          > that the comment made by Mr. Stott was motivated by modern politics,
                          > (terrorism), and not on the passport issue itself. The continued
                          > references
                          > to the original comment were not about re-enacting but rather about the
                          > war
                          > on terrorism and all persons, (including myself), were choosing to talk
                          > terrorist war when the issue was passports.
                          >
                          > The three things you should never talk about in polite conversation are
                          > politics, religion, and white shoes!
                          >
                          > Craig Williams
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Mr. Williams
                          >
                          > Sir,
                          >
                          > As always I bow to your wisdom .......
                          >
                          > Your Humble Servant
                          >
                          > L. Lozon
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                          > square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS
                          > of square miles...
                          >
                          > Unit Contact information for North America:
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                          > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                          >
                          > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                          > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Craig Williams
                          Either you do em or ya don t! Craig
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 6, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Either you do 'em or ya don't!

                            Craig
                            >

                            > All-
                            > White shoes? Am I missing something?
                            >
                            > John Ogden
                          • Len Heidebrecht
                            Well, actually the quote is or ladies in the mess but yes Craig one shouldn t even speak of such a terrible fashion faux pas. Why next people will be
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 6, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Well, actually the quote is or 'ladies in the mess' but yes Craig one
                              shouldn't even speak of such a terrible fashion faux pas. Why next
                              people will be mentioning sandals and socks.
                              Oooh the horror, the horror...
                              Len
                              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Craig Williams <sgtwarner@s...>
                              wrote:
                              > Either you do 'em or ya don't!
                              >
                              > Craig
                              > >
                              >
                              > > All-
                              > > White shoes? Am I missing something?
                              > >
                              > > John Ogden
                            • JOHN GREIG
                              ... So you have Essex girls in Canada ? Squire John The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America,
                              Message 14 of 16 , Apr 6, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Len Heidebrecht <lheidebrecht@...> wrote:

                                > >
                                >
                                > > All-
                                > > White shoes? Am I missing something?
                                > >
                                > > John Ogden

                                So you have Essex girls in Canada ?

                                Squire John









                                The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

                                Unit Contact information for North America:
                                ---------------------------------
                                Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                                American Forces Unit Lisiting
                                http://usforces1812.tripod.com





                                ---------------------------------


                                Yahoo! Groups Links


                                To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/

                                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • yawors1
                                ... Plenty of em, Squire! All shapes, sizes, ages, races, creeds. ; ) Jim Yaworsky, of the City of Windsor, in the County of ESSEX (population maybe
                                Message 15 of 16 , Apr 7, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, JOHN GREIG <je.greig@b...> wrote:
                                  >

                                  > So you have Essex girls in Canada ?
                                  >
                                  > Squire John
                                  >

                                  Plenty of 'em, Squire! All shapes, sizes, ages, races, creeds. ;>)

                                  Jim Yaworsky, of the City of Windsor, in the County of ESSEX
                                  (population maybe 300,000+, about half of whom are probably female),
                                  Province of Ontario, Dominion of Canada... (and this isn't the only
                                  Essex County in Canada & the U.S.)
                                • Len Heidebrecht
                                  Oh, the sad anoraks. Squire, he s speaking of the County of Essex here in Ontario. Sigh. Len ... creeds. ; ) ... only
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Apr 7, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Oh, the sad anoraks.
                                    Squire, he's speaking of the County of Essex here in Ontario.
                                    Sigh.
                                    Len
                                    --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "yawors1" <yawors1@u...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, JOHN GREIG <je.greig@b...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > So you have Essex girls in Canada ?
                                    > >
                                    > > Squire John
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > Plenty of 'em, Squire! All shapes, sizes, ages, races,
                                    creeds. ;>)
                                    >
                                    > Jim Yaworsky, of the City of Windsor, in the County of ESSEX
                                    > (population maybe 300,000+, about half of whom are probably female),
                                    > Province of Ontario, Dominion of Canada... (and this isn't the
                                    only
                                    > Essex County in Canada & the U.S.)
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.