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British Indian Department - officers coats faced blue, green, or...

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  • James Yaworsky
    ... the 1820s when a green uniform was developed. Prior to that, Indian Department officers had red officers coats made for thems, if they did not already
    Message 1 of 21 , Apr 30, 2007
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      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, ronaldjdale@... wrote:
      >
      > There did not seem to be an official Indian Department uniform until
      the 1820s when a green uniform was developed. Prior to that, Indian
      Department officers had red officers coats made for thems, if they did
      not already have one for militia rank. Matthew Elliott, for example,
      wore his red coat of the Essex militia.

      Jim here. The coat is on display at Fort Malden, and is, I do
      believe, faced "blue"... and the Essex militia was definitely not a
      Royal Regiment!

      Jim Yaworsky
      41st
    • ronaldjdale@netscape.net
      Hi Jim, The prescribed uniform for Upper Canadian militia officers was a red coat with blue facings. The Niagara museum has a few samples of original Lincoln
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 30, 2007
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        Hi Jim,

        The prescribed uniform for Upper Canadian militia officers was a red coat with blue facings. The Niagara museum has a few samples of original Lincoln Militia coattees that match these regulations.

        Ron

        -----Original Message-----
        From: yawors1@...
        To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:45 AM
        Subject: [War Of 1812] British Indian Department - officers coats faced blue, green, or...


        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, ronaldjdale@... wrote:
        >
        > There did not seem to be an official Indian Department uniform until
        the 1820s when a green uniform was developed. Prior to that, Indian
        Department officers had red officers coats made for thems, if they did
        not already have one for militia rank. Matthew Elliott, for example,
        wore his red coat of the Essex militia.

        Jim here. The coat is on display at Fort Malden, and is, I do
        believe, faced "blue"... and the Essex militia was definitely not a
        Royal Regiment!

        Jim Yaworsky
        41st



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      • ronaldjdale@netscape.net
        Hello Gang, The illustration on the cmhg site, scarlet faced green, is based on Rene Chartrands assumptions from the McKay portrait. If anyone has an actual
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 30, 2007
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          Hello Gang,

          The illustration on the cmhg site, "scarlet faced green," is based on Rene Chartrands assumptions from the McKay portrait. If anyone has an actual historic reference to an approved Indian Department uniform, I would love to see it.

          Has anyone done research into the sealed patterns at the PRO?

          Ron

          -----Original Message-----
          From: ortheris@...
          To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:16 AM
          Subject: [War Of 1812] Re: British Indian Department


          --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <littlefeatherscrafts@...>
          wrote:

          Looking for some info trying to get some idea on are uniform be looking
          at can't find nothing if you got any info please snd reply.
          Thanks
          First in Command of B.I.D Chris Wilkinson

          Hi Chris,
          Try the web site provided below and type in British Indian Department
          in the search box. You will find a picture representing an officer of
          the British Indian Department during the War of 1812.
          Regards,
          Bruce Whittaker
          British Native Allies

          www.cmhg.gc.ca



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        • James Yaworsky
          ... coat with blue facings. The Niagara museum has a few samples of original Lincoln Militia coattees that match these regulations. ... So... blue is not
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 30, 2007
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            --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, ronaldjdale@... wrote:
            >
            > Hi Jim,
            >
            > The prescribed uniform for Upper Canadian militia officers was a red
            coat with blue facings. The Niagara museum has a few samples of
            original Lincoln Militia coattees that match these regulations.
            >
            > Ron

            So... blue is not reserved entirely for "royal" regiments, at least in
            Upper Canada... If militia officers are wearing blue faced coats,
            then maybe so are those of the Indian Department... the "they can't
            be because only Royal Regiments were faced blue" argument is
            apparently not valid...

            Jim
            41st
          • larrylozon
            ronaldjdale wrote: If anyone has an actual historic reference to an approved Indian Department uniform, I would love to see it. As has been said before There
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 30, 2007
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              ronaldjdale wrote:

              If anyone has an actual historic reference to an approved Indian
              Department uniform, I would love to see it.




              As has been said before

              There were a large number of British Indian Department personnel at
              what is now Fort Malden across from Detroit.

              Tecumseh had dealings with the Indian Agent and his uniform is on
              display at Fort Malden.

              Visit
              http://www.pc.gc.ca/lhn-nhs/on/malden/index_e.asp


              Contact John MacLeod John.MacLeod (at) pc.gc.ca

              The uniforms on display are early war, scarlet with green facing and
              late war scarlet with blue facing.

              This should help all who want to do British Indian Department (War Of
              1812) ... 'actual Original uniforms'.


              Yrs.,
              Larry Lozon (L2)
              Upper Canada (Ontario)

              United States Forces 1812
              http://usforces1812.tripod.com

              Crown Forces North America 1812
              http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

              2007 WAR Of 1812 Events
              http://royal.scots.tripod.com/warof1812eventslist

              Sutlers & Merchants
              http://1812crownforces.tripod.com/sutlersmerchants
            • kevin.windsor@sympatico.ca
              Geez Ron, you d figure you of all people would know that!! ;-) Do you know who to contact at Ft Malden? You know ParksCan can be pretty intimidating for those
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 30, 2007
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                Geez Ron, you'd figure you of all people would know that!! ;-)
                Do you know who to contact at Ft Malden?
                You know ParksCan can be pretty intimidating for those not familiar with the system... ;-)

                Kevin

                > From: "larrylozon" <larrylozon@...>
                >
                > Contact John MacLeod John.MacLeod (at) pc.gc.ca
                >
                > The uniforms on display are early war, scarlet with green facing and
                > late war scarlet with blue facing.
                >
                > This should help all who want to do British Indian Department (War Of
                > 1812) ... 'actual Original uniforms'.
                >
                >
                > Yrs.,
                > Larry Lozon (L2)
                > Upper Canada (Ontario)
                >
                >
              • ronaldjdale@netscape.net
                Hi Kevin, Oh, I am very familiar with these coats. Matthew Elliot s coat was likely made after 1794 when orders were issued requiring the Militia of Upper
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 30, 2007
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                  Hi Kevin,

                  Oh, I am very familiar with these coats. Matthew Elliot's coat was likely made after 1794 when orders were issued requiring the Militia of Upper Canada to wear red coats with blue facings. The coat has been greatly altered and includes the addition of panels to increase the size of the coat as Elliott's girth expanded. Red coats with green facings arrived in Upper Canada in the Spring of 1814 and some officers adapted accordingly before the order of June, 1814 that they be dressed in red coats faced blue. In New Brunswick, in 1813, 3000 coats arrived for the militia, 1000 of which had blue facings. In Lower Canada, some regiments of militia had blue facings and some green, including the 5th Battalion of select embodied militia, which claimed the same William McKay as a member. His portrait could feature an Indian Department uniform or his Quebec militia uniform. John McLeod at Malden (john.McLeod@...) knows the collection intimately and could likely send photos of officers coats in their collection which include the above mentioned Elliott coat and another pre-1813 militia officer's coat, again red with green facings. John has recreated a section of Caldwell's Rangers who worked very closely with First Nations allies.

                  A number of years ago there was a great deal of debate over a Rev War era coat in the Niagara Museum that had belonged to Daniel Servos of the Indian Department. Regulations were scoured here and in England for clothing warrants for the Indian Department and the earliest reference to an approved uniform was the green post-War of 1812 one. The documents suggested that Indian Department officers wear a red coat in Indian country and the conclusion was that this was a red coat cut in military style--not a specific Indian Department uniform.
                  Ron


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: kevin.windsor@...
                  To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 4:28 PM
                  Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] British Indian Department


                  Geez Ron, you'd figure you of all people would know that!! ;-)
                  Do you know who to contact at Ft Malden?
                  You know ParksCan can be pretty intimidating for those not familiar with the system... ;-)

                  Kevin

                  > From: "larrylozon" <larrylozon@...>
                  >
                  > Contact John MacLeod John.MacLeod (at) pc.gc.ca
                  >
                  > The uniforms on display are early war, scarlet with green facing and
                  > late war scarlet with blue facing.
                  >
                  > This should help all who want to do British Indian Department (War Of
                  > 1812) ... 'actual Original uniforms'.
                  >
                  >
                  > Yrs.,
                  > Larry Lozon (L2)
                  > Upper Canada (Ontario)
                  >
                  >



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                • HQ93rd@aol.com
                  ... Turbans, I think. Oh, gad, you mean THOSE Indians... ;-) B 93rd SHRoFLHU www.93rdhighlanders.com THE Thin Red Line **************************************
                  Message 8 of 21 , May 1, 2007
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                    In a message dated 4/29/07 12:32:20 PM, littlefeatherscrafts@... writes:


                    > Looking for some info trying to get some idea on are uniform be looking
                    > at can't find nothing if you got any info please snd reply.
                    > Thanks
                    >

                    Turbans, I think.

                    Oh, gad, you mean THOSE Indians...
                    ;-)
                    B
                    93rd SHRoFLHU
                    www.93rdhighlanders.com
                    THE Thin Red Line



                    **************************************
                    See what's free at http://www.aol.com


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Chris Kimball
                    Turbans, I think. Oh, gad, you mean THOSE Indians... ;-) B 93rd SHRoFLHU www.93rdhighlanders .com THE Thin Red Line Actually, true in both cases, at least for
                    Message 9 of 21 , May 2, 2007
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                      Turbans, I think.
                      Oh, gad, you mean THOSE Indians...
                      ;-)
                      B
                      93rd SHRoFLHU
                      www.93rdhighlanders .com
                      THE Thin Red Line


                      Actually, true in both cases, at least for here in the south. Creeks, Choctaws, or folks from Bombay.
                      Regards,
                      Chris Kimball
                      Okahumpkee, Native Warrior on the southern theater of operations


                      ---------------------------------
                      Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
                      Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • wolf_bna
                      I was offered a Captain s commission on November, 26, 2004 to which I accepted. I have been unable to attend several events due to obligations to my Nation. As
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 10, 2008
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                        I was offered a Captain's commission on November, 26, 2004 to which I
                        accepted. I have been unable to attend several events due to
                        obligations to my Nation. As many of you know Six Nations is locked
                        in a land dispute regarding the Haldimand Tract with the Federal and
                        Provincial governments. Having the responsibility of sitting on one
                        of the negotiating teams has demanded much of my time. Other members
                        of the British Native Allies have attended many events although I
                        have been absent. Nevertheless my lack of presence as a British
                        Indian Department Captain is really of no consequence.

                        That being said the following is a contracted description of the
                        British Indian Department.

                        In 1790 the British implemented the Constitutional Act which divided
                        Canada into the provinces of Upper and Lower Canada. Each became
                        separate political entities under the auspices of the Governor
                        General. In Upper Canada the Lieutenant Governor and in Lower Canada
                        the Representative of the Governor General would report directly to
                        the Governor General. Below them were the Executive and Legislative
                        bodies of both provinces.

                        Prior to 1796 the responsibility for Indian Affairs belonged to the
                        office of the Superintendent and Deputy Superintendent of Indian
                        Affairs. The resident Indian Agents served under the Deputy
                        Superintendent. This structure was employed in Lower Canada until
                        1800 when responsibility was transferred to the Governor General. In
                        Upper Canada in 1796 responsibility was transferred to the Lieutenant-
                        Governor.

                        During the War of 1812 Sir George Prevost was the Governor General
                        (1812–1815).

                        The Lieutenant-Governors were Sir Isaac Brock (1811-1812), Sir Roger
                        Hale Sheaffe (1812-1813), Francis de Rottenburg (1813) and Sir Gordon
                        Drummond (1813-1814). It should be noted that all of the Lieutenant-
                        Governors were administrators and commanders of the forces in Upper
                        Canada during the war.

                        The responsibilities of the Indian Department during the war were
                        administration, recruitment, providing of interpreters and the
                        supplying of provisions. Authoritative and administrative duties
                        belonged to the Governor General and the Lieutenant-Governor.
                        Recruitment, interpretive and supply duties belonged to men employed
                        in the Indian Department having intimate knowledge of the various
                        Indigenous peoples.

                        Each responsibility maintained its own ordinances. Administrative
                        duties dealt with Treaties and other issues occasionally arising
                        between British Subjects or the military and Native Allies.
                        Recruiters recruited the alliance of Indigenous Nations to provide
                        warriors for the Kings cause. Interpreters were required to
                        communicate between the British and their various Native allies. The
                        supplying of provisions to Native allies was an integral part of
                        keeping them on the battlefield. Warriors were provided with the
                        necessary accouterments for battle while their villages received the
                        sustenance required while the men were on the field instead of
                        hunting.

                        War Chiefs were customarily employed by the Indian Department and
                        given the rank of a Lieutenant or Captain. This logic was employed to
                        assure Native allies of segregation from the structured British
                        military regime. British military commanders could merely suggest but
                        never execute orders to their Native allies and vice versa. The fact
                        is that Native allies fought unfettered as an independent entity
                        under the leadership of their own War Chiefs. A case in point is the
                        Military's resolve of the rivalry between William Claus and John
                        Teyoninhokarawen Norton.

                        The British Indian Department in reality was an institution
                        established to manage issues regarding the relationship between
                        European and Indigenous peoples. While some B.I.D. officers and
                        interpreters fought along side Native allies the Department never
                        fought as a "cohesive military fighting unit" or commanded their
                        allies. In fact, they were obligated to obey the commands of the War
                        Chiefs if they chose to fight along side them. They were first and
                        foremost administrators which developed into the modern Department of
                        Indian Affairs that exists today.
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