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RE: [War Of 1812] today's picture - aerial Fort York & Environs

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  • Ian Gardner
    Yes and no. As recently as the early 60 s when the Parking Lot (aka Gardiner Expressway [note the different spelling; no relation to moi :-) ]) was being
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 2, 2007
      Yes and no. As recently as the early '60's when the Parking Lot (aka
      Gardiner Expressway [note the different spelling; no relation to moi :-)
      ]) was being built, the plan was that what appears as a jog in this
      higher-elevation image of the site (http://tinyurl.com/29uf8k) was to go
      right straight through the middle of the grounds. The preservationist
      sensibilities are unfortunately a relatively-recent phenomenon.

      Ian

      -----Original Message-----
      From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of James Yaworsky
      Sent: April 2, 2007 9:02 AM
      To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [War Of 1812] today's picture - aerial Fort York & Environs

      [snip]
      By the
      time Fort York really came under developmental pressure, sensibilities
      had changed and its 20th century defenders were able to successfully
      beat off the "developers'" assaults. It seems inconceivable that it
      will ever now be deliberately destroyed.

      It's a fortuitous combination of developmental circumstances that have
      done the trick and created a great opportunity for Toronto to further
      polish up its gem!

      Jim Yaworsky
      Moderator



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • James Yaworsky
      Please note I said the 20th century defenders were able to successfully beat off developer attacks, which implies that there have been a few... Unfortunately,
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 2, 2007
        Please note I said the 20th century defenders were able to
        successfully beat off developer attacks, which implies that there have
        been a few...

        Unfortunately, there will always be an element in our society that
        thinks itself "progressive" and that anything "old" is worthless...
        just as there has always been an element that is "preservationist".
        The question is, where lies the balance of power to set the agenda?
        In Detroit, 1820's, "developers" were in the driver's seat... In
        Toronto, the balance shifted on to the "preservationist" end of the
        scale at some point in the 1900's.

        Closely related is the debate between those who think a place like
        Fort York can be respectfully "polished up" and become an even greater
        tourist attraction and cultural asset, and those who think spending
        more money on such a site is merely to waste same...

        The debate is often (always?) a very local one. Look at
        Niagara-on-the-Lake vs. Amherstburg in terms of trying to maintain
        streetscapes etc... I've heard that an element in Niagara-On-The-Lake
        is very anti-tourist, and there are some in the Town who think that
        Fort George is just a nuisance that takes up a lot of valuable real
        estate.

        Those of us who chose to be involved in such matters should probably
        realize that a certain amount of compromise, and being realistic in
        our plans, will probably achieve the greatest results. Change is
        inevitable - the challenge is to channel it along appropriate lines...

        It struck me that the best part of the plans outlined for Fort York
        was the emphasis given in demonstrating the economic benefits to be
        accrued to the entire community by the tourist aspect, and the
        community educational benefit. An approach that just spoke to the
        "sacred nature of the site" would probably not be as compelling to the
        decision-makers...

        Jim Yaworsky
        41st

        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Gardner" <igardner@...> wrote:
        >
        > Yes and no. As recently as the early '60's when the Parking Lot (aka
        > Gardiner Expressway [note the different spelling; no relation to moi :-)
        > ]) was being built, the plan was that what appears as a jog in this
        > higher-elevation image of the site (http://tinyurl.com/29uf8k) was to go
        > right straight through the middle of the grounds. The preservationist
        > sensibilities are unfortunately a relatively-recent phenomenon.
        >
        > Ian
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > [snip]
        > By the time Fort York really came under developmental pressure,
        sensibilities had changed and its 20th century defenders were able to
        successfully beat off the "developers'" assaults. It seems
        inconceivable that it will ever now be deliberately destroyed.

        > Jim Yaworsky
        > Moderator
      • Ian Gardner
        Mind you, there s still the Hummers-not-History set, even today. There s an element in the City of Toronto government who d be pleased as Puck to build the
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 2, 2007
          Mind you, there's still the 'Hummers-not-History' set, even today.
          There's an element in the City of Toronto government who'd be pleased as
          Puck to build the Front Street Extension which would pass just to the
          north of the Fort site, effectively boxing it in even more and making it
          even less approachable than it is at present. I don't mention this to
          this international list as a way of introducing local Toronto politics
          to people who'd (not unreasonably) care a whit about them but rather to
          remind all and sundry that the things and reminders that we cherish and
          value can't be taken for granted.

          The Barbarians will ever be restless at the gate, awaiting distractions.


          Mind you, now that I think about it, the Barbarians have been at the
          gate before. For those of you familiar with the Fort, the bridge on
          Garrison Road over nothing in particular located here
          http://tinyurl.com/3yobtg
          used to span the tracks of the Toronto, Grey and Bruce which continued
          on to a terminus at Simcoe Street on the waterfront. A dead-end of rails
          were there as recently as maybe 10 years ago (even though the line had
          been swallowed up by the CPR in 1883.

          http://home.primus.ca/~robkath/railtgb.htm

          That said, I'm one for mindfulness nonetheless.

          Ian

          -----Original Message-----
          From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of James Yaworsky
          Sent: April 2, 2007 11:42 AM
          To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [War Of 1812] Fort York & Environs - defenders and developers

          Please note I said the 20th century defenders were able to
          successfully beat off developer attacks, which implies that there have
          been a few...

          Unfortunately, there will always be an element in our society that
          thinks itself "progressive" and that anything "old" is worthless...
          just as there has always been an element that is "preservationist".
          The question is, where lies the balance of power to set the agenda?
          In Detroit, 1820's, "developers" were in the driver's seat... In
          Toronto, the balance shifted on to the "preservationist" end of the
          scale at some point in the 1900's.

          Closely related is the debate between those who think a place like
          Fort York can be respectfully "polished up" and become an even greater
          tourist attraction and cultural asset, and those who think spending
          more money on such a site is merely to waste same...

          The debate is often (always?) a very local one. Look at
          Niagara-on-the-Lake vs. Amherstburg in terms of trying to maintain
          streetscapes etc... I've heard that an element in Niagara-On-The-Lake
          is very anti-tourist, and there are some in the Town who think that
          Fort George is just a nuisance that takes up a lot of valuable real
          estate.

          Those of us who chose to be involved in such matters should probably
          realize that a certain amount of compromise, and being realistic in
          our plans, will probably achieve the greatest results. Change is
          inevitable - the challenge is to channel it along appropriate lines...

          It struck me that the best part of the plans outlined for Fort York
          was the emphasis given in demonstrating the economic benefits to be
          accrued to the entire community by the tourist aspect, and the
          community educational benefit. An approach that just spoke to the
          "sacred nature of the site" would probably not be as compelling to the
          decision-makers...

          Jim Yaworsky
          41st

          --- In WarOf1812@yahoogrou <mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com,
          "Ian Gardner" <igardner@...> wrote:
          >
          > Yes and no. As recently as the early '60's when the Parking Lot (aka
          > Gardiner Expressway [note the different spelling; no relation to moi
          :-)
          > ]) was being built, the plan was that what appears as a jog in this
          > higher-elevation image of the site (http://tinyurl.
          <http://tinyurl.com/29uf8k> com/29uf8k) was to go
          > right straight through the middle of the grounds. The preservationist
          > sensibilities are unfortunately a relatively-recent phenomenon.
          >
          > Ian
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > [snip]
          > By the time Fort York really came under developmental pressure,
          sensibilities had changed and its 20th century defenders were able to
          successfully beat off the "developers'" assaults. It seems
          inconceivable that it will ever now be deliberately destroyed.

          > Jim Yaworsky
          > Moderator



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • spikeyj@crosslink.net
          On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 15:42:14 -0000 ... I think the two things that led to Toronto s preservationist attitude in the first half of the 1900s were the centennial
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 2, 2007
            On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 15:42:14 -0000
            "James Yaworsky" <yawors1@...> wrote:
            > Toronto, the balance shifted on to the "preservationist" end of the
            > scale at some point in the 1900's.

            I think the two things that led to Toronto's preservationist attitude
            in the first half of the 1900s were the centennial anniversaries of
            various sites, and the Depression, which led to the creation of a
            number of public works preservation jobs.

            Spike Y Jones
          • Dale Kidd
            ... have ... And polish it they shall, if their plans prove out. They have numerous new construction projects planned over the next several years, with the
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 2, 2007
              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "James Yaworsky" <yawors1@...> wrote:
              > It's a fortuitous combination of developmental circumstances that
              have
              > done the trick and created a great opportunity for Toronto to further
              > polish up its gem!


              And polish it they shall, if their plans prove out. They have numerous
              new construction projects planned over the next several years, with
              the intention of recreating several more of the fort's c. 1812
              buildings. If all goes well, and the funding all comes through as
              expected, we can look forward to a wonderful showpiece by the time he
              bicentennial of the American attack rolls around in 2013.

              Now if only we could figure out a way to reflood everything south of
              the fort so that we can reenact the landings to it's west properly.
              (It's not like we really NEED any of what's down along that waterfront
              anyway.....)

              ~Dale
            • Colin
              Jim Wrote I ve heard that an element in Niagara-On-The-Lake is very anti-tourist, and there are some in the Town who think that Fort George is just a nuisance
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 2, 2007
                Jim Wrote

                "I've heard that an element in Niagara-On-The-Lake
                is very anti-tourist, and there are some in the Town who think that
                Fort George is just a nuisance that takes up a lot of valuable real
                estate."

                A couple of years back the USS Constitution Marines organized an event
                (eneded up being smaller than it should have been) to bring attention
                to the fact that parts of the Battlefield at Sackets HArbor were
                planned for waterfront housing. One parcel has since been claimed by
                the "Battlefield Common" housing developement the other parcel, where
                many from the battle are buried is still in danger.
                While about town the first evening there we ended up at the Sacket
                Harbor Brewery(Highly Recomended. There we found ourselves in
                presence of the prospective developers and friends. I do not recall
                all that was said by them but one thing has stuck with me.
                "Its only bones...What good are they now?" If it had not been a "lady"
                sayng such a thing we may have had to visit the county courthouse in
                the subsequent months.
                There were many other comments like that one and I nearly lost it a
                number of occasions. But since then it had been sadness and not anger
                when hearing about these things. Towns and cities do not realize how
                a well preserved historical attraction can be, in trhe long run, FAR
                more lcrative to the town than more cookie cutter condominiums and
                houses.
                Colin Murphy
                1812 Marine Guard
                USS COnstitution
                USMCHC
              • ronaldjdale@netscape.net
                In the case of Fort York, the property was granted conditionally to the City of Toronto by the Department of Militia and Defence with a reversionary clause.
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 2, 2007
                  In the case of Fort York, the property was granted conditionally to the City of Toronto by the Department of Militia and Defence with a reversionary clause. If Toronto does not continue to preserve this National Historic Site, it will revert to the Crown.

                  Interestingly, it was the fervour over the pending demolition of the fort in 1909 that launched the Federal Governments National Historic Site programme--conceived between 1911 and 14 and delayed until after the war in 1919.

                  The approach that something is worthy of preservation because of its historic significance does not ring well in many decision-makers' ears but the argument that there will be economic benefits through the cultural tourism industry and its trickle down effect will normally get more attention.

                  Ron

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: igardner@...
                  To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 3:23 PM
                  Subject: Semi OT RE: [War Of 1812] Fort York & Environs - defenders and developers


                  Mind you, there's still the 'Hummers-not-History' set, even today.
                  There's an element in the City of Toronto government who'd be pleased as
                  Puck to build the Front Street Extension which would pass just to the
                  north of the Fort site, effectively boxing it in even more and making it
                  even less approachable than it is at present. I don't mention this to
                  this international list as a way of introducing local Toronto politics
                  to people who'd (not unreasonably) care a whit about them but rather to
                  remind all and sundry that the things and reminders that we cherish and
                  value can't be taken for granted.

                  The Barbarians will ever be restless at the gate, awaiting distractions.

                  Mind you, now that I think about it, the Barbarians have been at the
                  gate before. For those of you familiar with the Fort, the bridge on
                  Garrison Road over nothing in particular located here
                  http://tinyurl.com/3yobtg
                  used to span the tracks of the Toronto, Grey and Bruce which continued
                  on to a terminus at Simcoe Street on the waterfront. A dead-end of rails
                  were there as recently as maybe 10 years ago (even though the line had
                  been swallowed up by the CPR in 1883.

                  http://home.primus.ca/~robkath/railtgb.htm

                  That said, I'm one for mindfulness nonetheless.

                  Ian

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of James Yaworsky
                  Sent: April 2, 2007 11:42 AM
                  To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [War Of 1812] Fort York & Environs - defenders and developers

                  Please note I said the 20th century defenders were able to
                  successfully beat off developer attacks, which implies that there have
                  been a few...

                  Unfortunately, there will always be an element in our society that
                  thinks itself "progressive" and that anything "old" is worthless...
                  just as there has always been an element that is "preservationist".
                  The question is, where lies the balance of power to set the agenda?
                  In Detroit, 1820's, "developers" were in the driver's seat... In
                  Toronto, the balance shifted on to the "preservationist" end of the
                  scale at some point in the 1900's.

                  Closely related is the debate between those who think a place like
                  Fort York can be respectfully "polished up" and become an even greater
                  tourist attraction and cultural asset, and those who think spending
                  more money on such a site is merely to waste same...

                  The debate is often (always?) a very local one. Look at
                  Niagara-on-the-Lake vs. Amherstburg in terms of trying to maintain
                  streetscapes etc... I've heard that an element in Niagara-On-The-Lake
                  is very anti-tourist, and there are some in the Town who think that
                  Fort George is just a nuisance that takes up a lot of valuable real
                  estate.

                  Those of us who chose to be involved in such matters should probably
                  realize that a certain amount of compromise, and being realistic in
                  our plans, will probably achieve the greatest results. Change is
                  inevitable - the challenge is to channel it along appropriate lines...

                  It struck me that the best part of the plans outlined for Fort York
                  was the emphasis given in demonstrating the economic benefits to be
                  accrued to the entire community by the tourist aspect, and the
                  community educational benefit. An approach that just spoke to the
                  "sacred nature of the site" would probably not be as compelling to the
                  decision-makers...

                  Jim Yaworsky
                  41st

                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogrou <mailto:WarOf1812%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com,
                  "Ian Gardner" <igardner@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Yes and no. As recently as the early '60's when the Parking Lot (aka
                  > Gardiner Expressway [note the different spelling; no relation to moi
                  :-)
                  > ]) was being built, the plan was that what appears as a jog in this
                  > higher-elevation image of the site (http://tinyurl.
                  <http://tinyurl.com/29uf8k> com/29uf8k) was to go
                  > right straight through the middle of the grounds. The preservationist
                  > sensibilities are unfortunately a relatively-recent phenomenon.
                  >
                  > Ian
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > [snip]
                  > By the time Fort York really came under developmental pressure,
                  sensibilities had changed and its 20th century defenders were able to
                  successfully beat off the "developers'" assaults. It seems
                  inconceivable that it will ever now be deliberately destroyed.

                  > Jim Yaworsky
                  > Moderator


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Mark
                  ... event ... attention ... by ... where ... recall ... a lady ... in ... a ... anger ... how ... FAR ... You struck a nerve with this one. Stuff like this
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 2, 2007
                    --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Colin" <usmarine1814@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Jim Wrote
                    >
                    > "I've heard that an element in Niagara-On-The-Lake
                    > is very anti-tourist, and there are some in the Town who think that
                    > Fort George is just a nuisance that takes up a lot of valuable real
                    > estate."
                    >
                    > A couple of years back the USS Constitution Marines organized an
                    event
                    > (eneded up being smaller than it should have been) to bring
                    attention
                    > to the fact that parts of the Battlefield at Sackets HArbor were
                    > planned for waterfront housing. One parcel has since been claimed
                    by
                    > the "Battlefield Common" housing developement the other parcel,
                    where
                    > many from the battle are buried is still in danger.
                    > While about town the first evening there we ended up at the Sacket
                    > Harbor Brewery(Highly Recomended. There we found ourselves in
                    > presence of the prospective developers and friends. I do not
                    recall
                    > all that was said by them but one thing has stuck with me.
                    > "Its only bones...What good are they now?" If it had not been
                    a "lady"
                    > sayng such a thing we may have had to visit the county courthouse
                    in
                    > the subsequent months.
                    > There were many other comments like that one and I nearly lost it
                    a
                    > number of occasions. But since then it had been sadness and not
                    anger
                    > when hearing about these things. Towns and cities do not realize
                    how
                    > a well preserved historical attraction can be, in trhe long run,
                    FAR
                    > more lcrative to the town than more cookie cutter condominiums and
                    > houses.

                    You struck a nerve with this one. Stuff like this really peeves me
                    off. There are too many in our "modern times", that have no sense of
                    historical or heritage pride, meaning how we are able to lead the
                    lives we do now, because of those that gave of themselves in the
                    past. It seems that everything in our times, comes down to the
                    almighty dollar, no matter what the cost, even to the preservation
                    of our heritage. NOTL wouldn't be, if it wasn't for Fort George, in
                    the past or now.
                    When it comes to even the thought of digging a cemetery in the name
                    of developement, that comes down to just a total lack of respect.
                    But again, there is a lot of that in our modern times. Hmmmm .. if
                    you or I decided to go digging in a known burial spot or cemetery, I
                    believe that would be called desecration, but where money is
                    involved to the "big pockets", well then, it's OK.
                    More and more, people seem to forget about our heritage rich past,
                    and the events and persons that got us here. To think about it,
                    Paris could be Canada's capital, or we could be waving the Stars and
                    Stripes as our flag, or we could even be doing the goose step. Those
                    words are NOT meant to be prejudice or offenceful, just that things
                    could have turned out quite differently in the past, if not for
                    those that gave of themselves. To forget or be ignorant of history,
                    is only asking for history to repeat itself in the future.

                    My 2 cents worth .... Mark
                  • Dale Kidd
                    ... To forget or be ignorant of history, ... You nailed it, sir... that s why many of us reenact! ~Dale
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 3, 2007
                      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <markrf@...> wrote:
                      To forget or be ignorant of history,
                      > is only asking for history to repeat itself in the future.

                      You nailed it, sir... that's why many of us reenact!

                      ~Dale
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