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Re: [War Of 1812] Notification of Families of British War Casualties

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  • glenn stott
    Dear List, After attending the memorial service for the Battle of the Longwoods on Sunday, March 4, there was some discussion about how , when and if, families
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 5, 2007
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      Dear List,
      After attending the memorial service for the Battle of the Longwoods on Sunday, March 4, there was some discussion about how , when and if, families of private soldiers were notified of the death of their family member. The 89th Reg. have published the Articles of War on their website and it states that the property of the dead soldier would be gathered up, debts settled and any surplus or balance would be given to the Regimental Paymaster who in turn would pay to "the Representative of such non-commissioned Officer or Private, if claimed within the Periods limited by Our Regulation on this Head: If not claimed within such limited Period, the same shall be paid on Application to the Regimental Agent."
      This sounds as if the family applies for information about their relative within a period of time, they would be paid any somes not owed... but it doesn't say or indeed imply ANYONE actually writes a letter or notice saying so and so was killed on March 4, 1814.
      Does anyone have anymore information about the process... who would inform the relatives or representative, when and how... Muster Roll records simply list town of origin, and parish from which they came... There is no next of kin listed... It sounds as if it was to be the initiative of the relatives.
      Help!!

      Glenn Stott, Royal Scots, Light Company.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • James Yaworsky
      ... the death of their family member I know that prize money for the capture of Detroit, which wasn t distributed until a few years after the War, was given
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
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        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "glenn stott" <gstott@...> wrote:
        >
        > "how , when and if, families of private soldiers were notified of
        the death of their family member"

        I know that prize money for the capture of Detroit, which wasn't
        distributed until a few years after the War, was given to some
        relatives of deceased members of the 41st. Somehow, these people had
        found out that they were entitled.

        The money was distributed in London and the claimant had to sign for
        it at the prize agent's, so had to be there in person to collect. It
        would take further digging to establish if the relative might have
        been with the Regiment in Canada and knew of their sad loss from
        having been in the war zone, however.

        It does occur to me that if the average private was illiterate, his
        immediate family probably were as well. Unless a letter was sent to
        the Parish. That's where wives & kids not taken on campaign had to go
        for relief while their man was off serving the King...

        Also, wasn't it a threat that soldiers took seriously, that their
        names would be posted at their home parish if they deserted or
        otherwise disgraced themselves?

        Jim Yaworsky
        41st
      • BritcomHMP@aol.com
        Unfortunately I cannot find the copies I had of a group of letters pertaining a soldier in the New Orleans campaign. One from the chap himself, one from his
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
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          Unfortunately I cannot find the copies I had of a group of letters
          pertaining a soldier in the New Orleans campaign. One from the chap himself, one from
          his sergeant to his family saying he had been killed and recommending they
          claim his prize and blood money and subsequent letters from the authorities
          pertaining to the claim, ending with one saying that his father had already
          claimed the cash.
          The originals are in the Nottingham city Museum (or public library, I forget
          which). and I am very upset I can't put my hands on them but the answer is
          yes, money could be, and was, claimed by the families of private soldiers.

          Cheers

          Tim
          <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
          email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
          http://www.aol.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Chris McKay
          So, was this the standard procedure? That a man s NCO or CO would write a letter to his family informing them of his death or is this an exception. I ve read
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
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            So, was this the standard procedure? That a man's NCO or CO would
            write a letter to his family informing them of his death or is this an
            exception. I've read memoirs of serjeants that seem to indicate that
            they're writing a letter to someone's family because they were close,
            but it doesn't seem to indicate the that was SOP. How would the army
            know where to send the letters?

            Chris

            One from the chap himself, one from
            > his sergeant to his family saying he had been killed and
            recommending they
            > claim his prize and blood money and subsequent letters from the
            authorities
            > pertaining to the claim, ending with one saying that his father had
            already
            > claimed the cash.
          • Craig Williams
            Chris, I don t know if contacting the next of kin was SOP, but , (and I m only guessing here), finding them might have been based on sending the
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
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              Chris,

              I don't know if contacting the next of kin was SOP, but , (and I'm
              only guessing here), finding them might have been based on sending the
              correspondence via the parish noted on the soldiers attestations papers.


              Craig W


              On 6-Mar-07, at 2:09 PM, Chris McKay wrote:

              > So, was this the standard procedure? That a man's NCO or CO would
              > write a letter to his family informing them of his death or is this an
              > exception. I've read memoirs of serjeants that seem to indicate that
              > they're writing a letter to someone's family because they were close,
              > but it doesn't seem to indicate the that was SOP. How would the army
              > know where to send the letters?
              >
              > Chris
              >
              > One from the chap himself, one from
              > > his sergeant to his family saying he had been killed and
              > recommending they
              > > claim his prize and blood money and subsequent letters from the
              > authorities
              > > pertaining to the claim, ending with one saying that his father had
              > already
              > > claimed the cash.
              >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John Harris
              ... would inform the relatives or representative, when and how... Muster Roll records simply list town of origin, and parish from which they came... There is
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
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                >> Does anyone have anymore information about the process... who
                would inform the relatives or representative, when and how... Muster
                Roll records simply list town of origin, and parish from which they
                came... There is no next of kin listed... It sounds as if it was to
                be the initiative of the relatives.
                > Help!!
                >
                > Glenn Stott, Royal Scots, Light Company.

                "Muster Roll records simply list town of origin, and parish from
                which they came... "

                Hi Glenn
                I think that that is the answer, meaning the Parish where they
                enlisted. In theory, the Parish would be close to home and a very
                vital part of the society in which you grew up in. We do know that
                desertion notice's were posted on the Parish "door", aka: the
                church , for all to see , and could be used as a deterrent so as not
                to bring disgrace upon your family still living in the area.
                The church was where you learned of events that have happened to
                your fellow parishoners , who you may only see once a week . It would
                also be the centre of the social society in which you lived.
                Officers death's by name and Regiment, were published in the
                newspapers. If you've ever seen the reprint of the Time's about
                Waterloo , you'll see this . Enlisted men are only listed as
                killed/wounded/missing in the total returns.
                Honestly, I can't say that this procedure would be 100% correct, but
                it does make sense to me.
                Regards
                John Harris
              • Ray Hobbs
                Fascinating thread, and well-worth doing some research. Here is an example of where things might not work as smoothly. George Ferguson of the 100th - a
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
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                  Fascinating thread, and well-worth doing some research. Here is an
                  example of where things might not work as smoothly.
                  George Ferguson of the 100th - a literate, middle-class private soldier
                  - mentions that until the Regiment got to Newport, Isle of Wight in
                  1812, most of the women of the soldiers traveled with the men.
                  It was on the dock, just before embarkation that the lottery was held
                  to determine which six per company would join the men on their trip to
                  Canada. There were dozens of women and children who did not make the
                  cut, and were abandoned on the docks as the boats pulled out. The scene
                  he likened to Dante's Inferno.
                  Now these women would have to return to Ireland, where they originated,
                  on the slim assurance of the parish vouchers they were issued. I wonder
                  how many made it home.

                  The 100th lost a lot of men at Chippewa, and took part in several other
                  battles. If their names were sent home to their parishes in Ireland as
                  missing or killed in action, I wonder how many there left there to
                  mourn them.

                  Ray Hobbs
                  XLI

                  On 6-Mar-07, at 5:03 PM, John Harris wrote:

                  > >> Does anyone have anymore information about the process... who
                  > would inform the relatives or representative, when and how... Muster
                  > Roll records simply list town of origin, and parish from which they
                  > came... There is no next of kin listed... It sounds as if it was to
                  > be the initiative of the relatives.
                  > > Help!!
                  > >
                  > > Glenn Stott, Royal Scots, Light Company.
                  >
                  > "Muster Roll records simply list town of origin, and parish from
                  > which they came... "
                  >
                  > Hi Glenn
                  > I think that that is the answer, meaning the Parish where they
                  > enlisted. In theory, the Parish would be close to home and a very
                  > vital part of the society in which you grew up in. We do know that
                  > desertion notice's were posted on the Parish "door", aka: the
                  > church , for all to see , and could be used as a deterrent so as not
                  > to bring disgrace upon your family still living in the area.
                  > The church was where you learned of events that have happened to
                  > your fellow parishoners , who you may only see once a week . It would
                  > also be the centre of the social society in which you lived.
                  > Officers death's by name and Regiment, were published in the
                  > newspapers. If you've ever seen the reprint of the Time's about
                  > Waterloo , you'll see this . Enlisted men are only listed as
                  > killed/wounded/missing in the total returns.
                  > Honestly, I can't say that this procedure would be 100% correct, but
                  > it does make sense to me.
                  > Regards
                  > John Harris
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Peter Catley
                  And for Methodists or Catholics? I suspect we may be attaching too much of our modern concepts on communication, I suspect that time and word of mouth were
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
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                    And for Methodists or Catholics?

                    I suspect we may be attaching too much of our modern concepts on
                    communication, I suspect that time and word of mouth were very
                    important. Also there is some evidence that the Parish recorded on the
                    service record was not accurate, they occasionally may have used the
                    Parish where the recruit was signed up by the recruiting party rather
                    than the Parish of residence or birth.

                    When James Hale met his brother in the Peninsula joining as a new
                    recruit he did not even know that Richard had left home to join the Army
                    over a year earlier.

                    Cheers

                    P**

                    John Harris wrote:
                    >
                    > >> Does anyone have anymore information about the process... who
                    > would inform the relatives or representative, when and how... Muster
                    > Roll records simply list town of origin, and parish from which they
                    > came... There is no next of kin listed... It sounds as if it was to
                    > be the initiative of the relatives.
                    > > Help!!
                    > >
                    > > Glenn Stott, Royal Scots, Light Company.
                    >
                    > "Muster Roll records simply list town of origin, and parish from
                    > which they came... "
                    >
                    > Hi Glenn
                    > I think that that is the answer, meaning the Parish where they
                    > enlisted. In theory, the Parish would be close to home and a very
                    > vital part of the society in which you grew up in. We do know that
                    > desertion notice's were posted on the Parish "door", aka: the
                    > church , for all to see , and could be used as a deterrent so as not
                    > to bring disgrace upon your family still living in the area.
                    > The church was where you learned of events that have happened to
                    > your fellow parishoners , who you may only see once a week . It would
                    > also be the centre of the social society in which you lived.
                    > Officers death's by name and Regiment, were published in the
                    > newspapers. If you've ever seen the reprint of the Time's about
                    > Waterloo , you'll see this . Enlisted men are only listed as
                    > killed/wounded/missing in the total returns.
                    > Honestly, I can't say that this procedure would be 100% correct, but
                    > it does make sense to me.
                    > Regards
                    > John Harris
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/message/31563;_ylc=X3oDMTM0YmFuOGZhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM4NzUxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTc2NzUwMwRtc2dJZAMzMTU3MQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExNzMyMTg1ODcEdHBjSWQDMzE1NjM->
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                  • Chris McKay
                    I have to agree, at least to a certain extent. Considering that thousands of men a year were dying in India, the Indies, and Spain, not to mention Canada, it
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
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                      I have to agree, at least to a certain extent. Considering that
                      thousands of men a year were dying in India, the Indies, and Spain, not
                      to mention Canada, it is assuming a lot that the army was able to
                      inform every parish of the men that died. In addition, there are
                      stories of colonels (from slightly before our time, granted) collecting
                      the pay of dead soldiers for their own profit - if the army couldn't
                      keep track, there's little chance of them passing the information on.

                      To look at it from another angle: a quick check of the Royals
                      inspection returns shows that the vast majority (4/5ths) of the
                      Regiment was enlisted for life. When they sailed for the West Indies
                      in 1801 (not to return to England or Scotland until 1815) I have to
                      wonder how many of the wives, girlfriends or family members accepted
                      their soldier as lost. It sounds brutal to modern ears, I'm sure, but
                      if a woman is left behind, I think she would move on. With no limit on
                      the tours of duty, she would have no idea how long she would have to
                      wait for news.

                      Chris

                      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Peter Catley <peter.catley@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > And for Methodists or Catholics?
                      >
                      > I suspect we may be attaching too much of our modern concepts on
                      > communication, I suspect that time and word of mouth were very
                      > important. Also there is some evidence that the Parish recorded on
                      the
                      > service record was not accurate, they occasionally may have used the
                      > Parish where the recruit was signed up by the recruiting party rather
                      > than the Parish of residence or birth.
                    • Tom Fournier
                      This is hardly definitive, but when I was reviewing casualty returns for the 41st from the War of 1812, there was a column that read, If not paid out to the
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
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                        This is hardly definitive, but when I was reviewing casualty returns
                        for the 41st from the War of 1812, there was a column that read, "If
                        not paid out to the Regiment to whom willed; or if no will, who is
                        supposed to be the next kin"

                        Of the 500 deaths or so that I noted, only a handful (less than 10)
                        had a record of a will; a small number had their final settlement
                        paid to a brother in the regiment, another member of the regiment or
                        a widow.

                        The vast majority had their settlement go to the regimental agent

                        This seems to indicate as Chris had suggested once you joined, and
                        especially if you were sent on foreign service, you were gone from
                        family and all connections to home.

                        I don't know for certain but I assume that if it went to the
                        regimental agent, it remained in the regiment's funds.

                        Tom
                      • Mark Ibbotson
                        Judging by the History of the British army overseas I would go with the assumption that the entire process of notification was as corrupt as claiming prize
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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                          Judging by the History of the British army overseas I would go with the assumption that the entire process of notification was as corrupt as claiming prize money.

                          No doubt the powers that be fiddled enormous sums from the dead just as they would have done to teh livings prize money. Lets remember this is a period before the military reforms of the 1880's and a soldiers lot was the worst of all.

                          =
                        • Chris McKay
                          So, the conclusion I m coming to here is that the British army would be happy to inform your family and allow them to collect any monies owed, but you have to
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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                            So, the conclusion I'm coming to here is that the British army would be
                            happy to inform your family and allow them to collect any monies owed,
                            but you have to tell them who to contact. If they don't know who
                            they're looking for (or, indeed, if there's anyone to look for), then
                            they're not really going to put the effort into it. It would seem, as
                            many have mentioned, that the system used is still through the
                            parishes, though. So, I could tell my CO that in the event of my
                            untimely death to please contact Shayna McKay at St. Andrew's Parish
                            and they would get word to her.

                            Chris

                            --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Fournier" <tom4141fournier@...>
                            wrote:
                            > Of the 500 deaths or so that I noted, only a handful (less than 10)
                            > had a record of a will; a small number had their final settlement
                            > paid to a brother in the regiment, another member of the regiment or
                            > a widow.
                            >
                            > The vast majority had their settlement go to the regimental agent
                            >
                            > This seems to indicate as Chris had suggested once you joined, and
                            > especially if you were sent on foreign service, you were gone from
                            > family and all connections to home.
                          • Kevin Windsor
                            Now would she still get the $$ if she has found someone else? Imagine showing up at the church in the family way and your husband has been gone 2 years.would
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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                              Now would she still get the $$ if she has found someone else? Imagine
                              showing up at the church in the family way and your husband has been gone 2
                              years.would she still be listed as married? Or would she be abandoned and
                              therefore divorced?



                              Kevin

                              89th



                              _____

                              From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                              Of Chris McKay



                              So, I could tell my CO that in the event of my untimely death to please
                              contact Shayna McKay at St. Andrew's Parish and they would get word to her.





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Chris McKay
                              That s perhaps a question for the lawyers in the group, but I would think that as long as her man is in the army, she s not technically abandoned. That being
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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                                That's perhaps a question for the lawyers in the group, but I would
                                think that as long as her man is in the army, she's not technically
                                abandoned. That being said, if she had moved on and found someone
                                else (whether or not she was technically married to that new person)
                                I would imagine the army would treat that the same way as if they
                                couldn't find her. They would shrug and say, we fulfilled our legal
                                obligations.
                                A question that would require a lot of digging is how many of the men
                                with wills listed wives as the next of kin? Tom mentioned brother
                                soldiers first. It would seem (in the 41st at this time, at least)
                                that it was rare to list a wife on a will - perhaps for this exact
                                reason.

                                Chris

                                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Windsor"
                                <kevin.windsor@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Now would she still get the $$ if she has found someone else?
                                Imagine
                                > showing up at the church in the family way and your husband has
                                been gone 2
                                > years.would she still be listed as married? Or would she be
                                abandoned and
                                > therefore divorced?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Kevin
                                >
                                > 89th
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > _____
                                >
                                > From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com]
                                On Behalf
                                > Of Chris McKay
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > So, I could tell my CO that in the event of my untimely death to
                                please
                                > contact Shayna McKay at St. Andrew's Parish and they would get word
                                to her.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • Tom Fournier
                                Just my observation, of 500 fatalities from a period of 1810 to 1814, very few had any notation of will; for those that did, it was most often a wife, just
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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                                  Just my observation, of 500 fatalities from a period of 1810 to
                                  1814, very few had any notation of will; for those that did, it was
                                  most often a wife, just once or twice - a father, several times a
                                  brother (typically in the regiment) or an individual in the regiment.

                                  While many had their final settlement listed as going to the
                                  regimental agent, many also were listed as "owing". Perhaps in a
                                  very rough way, this all balanced out?

                                  Another interesting note; from an inspection return from October
                                  1811, the establishment of the 41st was listed as 760 men. There is
                                  also a notation indicating that there was 98 "legally" married women
                                  and 253 children.

                                  Tom


                                  > A question that would require a lot of digging is how many of the
                                  men
                                  > with wills listed wives as the next of kin? Tom mentioned brother
                                  > soldiers first. It would seem (in the 41st at this time, at
                                  least)
                                  > that it was rare to list a wife on a will - perhaps for this exact
                                  > reason.
                                  >
                                  > Chris
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Chris McKay
                                  Do you think, Tom, that most of the time when a will was filled out for a wife, it was one of these women on the strength of the Regiment? Chris ... is ...
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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                                    Do you think, Tom, that most of the time when a will was filled out
                                    for a wife, it was one of these women on the strength of the Regiment?

                                    Chris

                                    --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Fournier"
                                    <tom4141fournier@...> wrote:
                                    > Another interesting note; from an inspection return from October
                                    > 1811, the establishment of the 41st was listed as 760 men. There
                                    is
                                    > also a notation indicating that there was 98 "legally" married
                                    women
                                    > and 253 children.
                                    >
                                    > Tom
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > A question that would require a lot of digging is how many of the
                                    > men
                                    > > with wills listed wives as the next of kin? Tom mentioned
                                    brother
                                    > > soldiers first. It would seem (in the 41st at this time, at
                                    > least)
                                    > > that it was rare to list a wife on a will - perhaps for this
                                    exact
                                    > > reason.
                                    > >
                                    > > Chris
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Tom Fournier
                                    Good question! The returns I saw, could give no indication of that. Given the limited level of literacy, you wonder if there were many if any wills. Money
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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                                      Good question!

                                      The returns I saw, could give no indication of that.

                                      Given the limited level of literacy, you wonder if there were many
                                      if any wills.

                                      Money given to a wife, money given to a brother in the regiment; it
                                      almost seems that if they are with the regiment, then you can not
                                      deny them the money and it is convenient to claim it was "willed" to
                                      them.

                                      Tom


                                      >
                                      > Do you think, Tom, that most of the time when a will was filled
                                      out
                                      > for a wife, it was one of these women on the strength of the
                                      Regiment?
                                      >
                                      > Chris
                                      >
                                      > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Fournier"
                                      > <tom4141fournier@> wrote:
                                      > > Another interesting note; from an inspection return from October
                                      > > 1811, the establishment of the 41st was listed as 760 men.
                                      There
                                      > is
                                      > > also a notation indicating that there was 98 "legally" married
                                      > women
                                      > > and 253 children.
                                      > >
                                      > > Tom
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > > A question that would require a lot of digging is how many of
                                      the
                                      > > men
                                      > > > with wills listed wives as the next of kin? Tom mentioned
                                      > brother
                                      > > > soldiers first. It would seem (in the 41st at this time, at
                                      > > least)
                                      > > > that it was rare to list a wife on a will - perhaps for this
                                      > exact
                                      > > > reason.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Chris
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Ray Hobbs
                                      Tom: Levels of literacy had been improving since 1803. That was the year in which Regimental Schools were established for the army, and the Asylum was
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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                                        Tom:
                                        Levels of literacy had been improving since 1803. That was the year in
                                        which Regimental Schools were established for the army, and the
                                        "Asylum" was established for the education of children of Regiments.
                                        Sponsor of this move was dear old Prinny.

                                        In Canada I know that the Royal Newfs had a well-stocked library in the
                                        period of the war, and that the Chaplain General, The Rev. John Owen,
                                        developed a system of book distribution among regimental hospitals -
                                        this to counteract the distribution of religious tracts by Methodists
                                        and Baptists.

                                        In the Peninsula (Iberian, that is), there reports of extensive
                                        education for Regimental children, which kept "the ragamuffins" off the
                                        streets - this was in 1809.

                                        This was also a time for educational reform in England, and
                                        establishment of many schools using Dr. Bell's methods, which the Army
                                        adopted.

                                        So, another item for some detailed research. I have a lot of this
                                        information on file. The implications of the facts thus far is that
                                        literacy was a growing skill, even in the army.

                                        My two cents' worth
                                        Ray H
                                        XLI




                                        On 7-Mar-07, at 4:23 PM, Tom Fournier wrote:

                                        > Good question!
                                        >
                                        > The returns I saw, could give no indication of that.
                                        >
                                        > Given the limited level of literacy, you wonder if there were many
                                        > if any wills.
                                        >
                                        > <snip>Tom:

                                        >
                                        > Tom
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > Do you think, Tom, that most of the time when a will was filled
                                        > out
                                        > > for a wife, it was one of these women on the strength of the
                                        > Regiment?
                                        > >
                                        > > Chris
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Fournier"
                                        > > <tom4141fournier@> wrote:
                                        > > > Another interesting note; from an inspection return from October
                                        > > > 1811, the establishment of the 41st was listed as 760 men.
                                        > There
                                        > > is
                                        > > > also a notation indicating that there was 98 "legally" married
                                        > > women
                                        > > > and 253 children.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Tom
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > A question that would require a lot of digging is how many of
                                        > the
                                        > > > men
                                        > > > > with wills listed wives as the next of kin? Tom mentioned
                                        > > brother
                                        > > > > soldiers first. It would seem (in the 41st at this time, at
                                        > > > least)
                                        > > > > that it was rare to list a wife on a will - perhaps for this
                                        > > exact
                                        > > > > reason.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Chris
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • glenn stott
                                        Dear List, What an interesting discussion! It appears then that there is little first hand evidence of actual personnel communicating with families about the
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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                                          Dear List,
                                          What an interesting discussion! It appears then that there is little first hand evidence of actual personnel communicating with families about the fate of their loved ones. Also considering the general lack of wealth among the private soldiers there probably would be very little property left to distribute. Therefore, it would be left to the home depot of the regiment when the final muster tallies came in to determine what course of action to take... ie will, or pay back to the regiment...
                                          Also it would imply that many families would not know the fate of their 'soldier' until long after it had happened.
                                          I realize that reforms occurred following the Crimean War but up to that time the army probably owned you as a soldier.
                                          Another question if I may... did each soldier at the end of the pay period actually receive the cash or was it credited to him in some other form or was it passed onto his family etc. Are there any records?
                                          I appreciate any information you can share. Thanks again.

                                          Glenn Stott, Royal Scots Light Company


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Ray Hobbs
                                          Hi Glenn: I shall be in Ottawa and grubbing through the Archives at the end of March. I ll see what I can find. On a related note - Major Adam Muir of the 41st
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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                                            Hi Glenn:
                                            I shall be in Ottawa and grubbing through the Archives at the end of
                                            March. I'll see what I can find.
                                            On a related note - Major Adam Muir of the 41st was a hero of the war,
                                            as a Captain. He was invalided out of the army in 1819, and eventually
                                            died in Sorel (William Henry), Canada in 1828. His wife had a devil of
                                            a job getting his pension from the army agents, and eventually had to
                                            resort to two memorials to the Duke himself. This worked.

                                            The story is full of tragedy and pathos. If a highly regarded officer
                                            and a decorated one (Gold Medal) had this much trouble getting his just
                                            desserts, or rather, his family did. one can only imagine what happened
                                            to the regular Tommy.

                                            As you said, great thread, and one worth following.

                                            Ray H
                                            XLI


                                            On 7-Mar-07, at 5:13 PM, glenn stott wrote:

                                            > Dear List,
                                            > What an interesting discussion! It appears then that there is little
                                            > first hand evidence of actual personnel communicating with families
                                            > about the fate of their loved ones. Also considering the general lack
                                            > of wealth among the private soldiers there probably would be very
                                            > little property left to distribute. Therefore, it would be left to the
                                            > home depot of the regiment when the final muster tallies came in to
                                            > determine what course of action to take... ie will, or pay back to the
                                            > regiment...
                                            > Also it would imply that many families would not know the fate of
                                            > their 'soldier' until long after it had happened.
                                            > I realize that reforms occurred following the Crimean War but up to
                                            > that time the army probably owned you as a soldier.
                                            > Another question if I may... did each soldier at the end of the pay
                                            > period actually receive the cash or was it credited to him in some
                                            > other form or was it passed onto his family etc. Are there any
                                            > records?
                                            > I appreciate any information you can share. Thanks again.
                                            >
                                            > Glenn Stott, Royal Scots Light Company
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Five Rivers Chapmanry
                                            Women in wills: An estate would not be willed to a woman because according to British law (and much of European) a woman could not hold title. There were
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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                                              Women in wills: An estate would not be willed to a woman because
                                              according to British law (and much of European) a woman could not hold
                                              title. There were exceptions, most notably that of monarchy, but on average
                                              a woman would not be mentioned in a will as a beneficiary of anything but
                                              perhaps a small stipend or sum of money. She might be mentioned as a ward
                                              that the next male heir was to accommodate. I do not have the legal texts
                                              available; however, one need only look to much of the plot premise behind
                                              Jane Austen's (and others) works to see this was a widely known and accepted
                                              legality.



                                              Marriage: Among the lower classes, of which much of the regular
                                              foot and able seamen were a part, the cost of a legal marriage was
                                              prohibitive, and hence the 'Common Law', of a man and woman cohabitating as
                                              husband and wife came into existence. I do believe that recognized form of
                                              marriage dates back to at least the 1300s, but I could be mistaken, as the
                                              research paper I wrote about that has long since vanished.



                                              Regards,

                                              Lorina

                                              Five Rivers Chapmanry

                                              purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage, embroidery supplies; fine,
                                              original textile, pen and ink, and watercolour art. Launching April 1:
                                              Recipes of a Dumb Housewife, by Lorina Stephens

                                              519-799-5577 info@... - www.5rivers.org





                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • larrylozon
                                              Lorina wrote: . . . An estate would not be willed to a woman because according to British law (and much of European) a woman could not hold title. Thank you
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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                                                Lorina wrote:

                                                ". . . An estate would not be willed to a woman because according to
                                                British law (and much of European) a woman could not hold title.




                                                Thank you Lady Lorina


                                                Levels of literacy and law aside, it was expensive to write a will
                                                and most soldiers did not have the money or the intention of creating
                                                a will.

                                                Officers may create a will but the common soldier … rare

                                                It is hard to set our mind set to 1812-1815 but it was a
                                                different time. Read legal documents from the time.


                                                Wives in 1812 were considered chattel and men usually inherited
                                                all (not politically correct but historically correct)

                                                Dictionary.com

                                                chat·tel n. (chât'l)
                                                1. Law: An article of movable personal property.
                                                2. A slave.

                                                Yrs.,
                                                L2
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