Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Wall vs wedge vs bell tent

Expand Messages
  • larrylozon
    Mark Dickerson wrote . . . I was thinking more along the lines of husband and wife (+ child) in a bell . . . much less likely to hear, This tent is too
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 5, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Mark Dickerson wrote

      " . . . I was thinking more along the lines of husband and wife (+
      child) in a bell . . . much less likely to hear, "This tent is too
      small!" at 8 AM.



      I hear you Dr. Dickerson

      If a wife and a child (children) + re-enactor soldier better to have
      a wall tent

      or do as some in the 41st Regt. and other units do . . . a wedge for
      the soldier and a separate wedge for the wife (+child/children)

      or they cud all shack up with U in yur new marquee!


      Yrs.,
      L2
    • Craig Williams
      Please Larry, Not the wall tent thing again. It is better to use what they used and the wedge was in use at the beginning of the war but was replaced gradually
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 5, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Please Larry,

        Not the wall tent thing again.
        It is better to use what they used and the wedge was in use at the
        beginning of the war but was replaced gradually by the more spacious
        and more modern bell tent.
        And if one is going to buy a wedge because of cost, it would
        behoove the individual to acquire a correct full size soldiers wedge
        rather than the 3/4 size cavalry jobs available out there.

        Caveat emptor!

        Craig
        On 5-Jan-07, at 3:41 PM, larrylozon wrote:

        >
        > Mark Dickerson wrote
        >
        > " . . . I was thinking more along the lines of husband and wife (+
        > child) in a bell . . . much less likely to hear, "This tent is too
        > small!" at 8 AM.
        >
        > I hear you Dr. Dickerson
        >
        > If a wife and a child (children) + re-enactor soldier better to have
        > a wall tent
        >
        > or do as some in the 41st Regt. and other units do . . . a wedge for
        > the soldier and a separate wedge for the wife (+child/children)
        >
        > or they cud all shack up with U in yur new marquee!
        >
        > Yrs.,
        > L2
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • J.Bruce Whittaker
        ... Thanks Craig, Could you give the dimensions of a full size wedge as opposed to the 3/4 size cavalry please. Thanks very much. Best regards, Bruce Whittaker
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 6, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          > And if one is going to buy a wedge because of cost, it would
          > behoove the individual to acquire a correct full size soldiers wedge
          > rather than the 3/4 size cavalry jobs available out there.
          >
          > Caveat emptor!

          Thanks Craig,
          Could you give the dimensions of a full size wedge as opposed to the
          3/4 size cavalry please. Thanks very much.
          Best regards,
          Bruce Whittaker
        • Craig Williams
          Of course Bruce, According to Lochee... The British wedge tent is 6 feet wide by 6 feet tall by seven feet long with no bell back, but it should have two peg
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 6, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Of course Bruce,
            According to Lochee...
            The British wedge tent is 6 feet wide by 6 feet tall by seven feet
            long with no bell back, but it should have two peg loops at the base
            of the rear end to allow the mild bowing of that edge.
            It was intended to house five men.

            I will post the illustration to the photos section.

            Craig
            > Could you give the dimensions of a full size wedge as opposed to the
            > 3/4 size cavalry please. Thanks very much.
            > Best regards,
            > Bruce Whittaker
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Craig Williams
            Sorry, I should clarify, The ridgepole is seven feet long. The tent with the bowing at the rear will be a little longer, somewhere in the neighborhood of an
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 6, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Sorry, I should clarify,
              The ridgepole is seven feet long. The tent with the bowing at the
              rear will be a little longer, somewhere in the neighborhood of an
              extra foot. Sorry Lochee wasn't clear on that one.
              The Cavalry tent is the same except it has the larger bell back which
              adds almost three feet to the length.
              Craig

              > The British wedge tent is 6 feet wide by 6 feet tall by seven feet
              > long with no bell back, but it should have two peg loops at the base
              > of the rear end to allow the mild bowing of that edge.
              >
              > Craig
              >
              > .
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Craig Williams
              Bruce et al, I have posted the illustrations of soldiers tents from Lochee in the photo section. The images of the tent in question are on the right hand side
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 6, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Bruce et al,

                I have posted the illustrations of soldiers tents from Lochee in the
                photo section.
                The images of the tent in question are on the right hand side of the
                scan. From top to bottom they showsoldiers tent plan, side elevation
                with cutaway to show the poles, and a side illustration.

                The images on the left are a plan of the cavalry tent, a plan of a
                bell of arms and a side elevation of a bell of arms,

                This is a reproduction of the page from Lochee's "Essay on
                Castrametation" 1778

                Craig
              • Todd Post
                List, With Steve Allie s help, we reconstructed some wedge tents from linen canvas, hand finished and with finishing details based on my research that are not
                Message 7 of 19 , Jan 6, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  List,

                  With Steve Allie's help, we reconstructed some wedge tents from linen
                  canvas, hand finished and with finishing details based on my research
                  that are not commonly seen in commercially available reproductions,
                  i.e. mud flaps and hemp rope loops through grommets. Also, we did
                  not use any sort of flap closure other than a grommet on each flap
                  which get looped onto a stake in front of the front upright, since
                  there is no evidence of ties or hooks and eyes used to close the
                  tent, but Lochee does say there should 13 stakes (one placed where I
                  mentioned).

                  I can try to post photographs of our reproduction if people are
                  interested.

                  Cheers,
                  Todd

                  On Jan 6, 2007, at 11:04 AM, Craig Williams wrote:

                  > Bruce et al,
                  >
                  > I have posted the illustrations of soldiers tents from Lochee in the
                  > photo section.
                  > The images of the tent in question are on the right hand side of the
                  > scan. From top to bottom they showsoldiers tent plan, side elevation
                  > with cutaway to show the poles, and a side illustration.
                  >
                  > The images on the left are a plan of the cavalry tent, a plan of a
                  > bell of arms and a side elevation of a bell of arms,
                  >
                  > This is a reproduction of the page from Lochee's "Essay on
                  > Castrametation" 1778
                  >
                  > Craig
                  >
                  >
                  > War of 1812 Living History:
                  > A wide-ranging information exchange
                  > for all participants and supporters
                  >
                  >
                  > Unit Contact information for North America:
                  > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                  > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                  > American Forces Unit Listing
                  > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                  >
                  > WAR OF 1812 EVENTS LIST:
                  > http://royal.scots.tripod.com/warof1812eventslist
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • HQ93rd@aol.com
                  ... I even prefer a bell to a marquee -- for a lot of reasons. Here s two: Easier to put up-- ONE person can actually do it! NO sound or movement even in high
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jan 7, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    In a message dated 1/5/07 11:05:34 AM, mdickerson1@... writes:
                    > Just as a suggestion, if you are planning on sharing a tent with anybody,
                    > consider a bell tent.  There are numerous period pictures of them and it can
                    > much more easily hold 2 or 3 people with a lot more room than a wedge.  I
                    > beleive most of the wedge tents in Canada in 1812 were rotten left overs from the
                    > Rev War.
                    >

                    I even prefer a bell to a marquee -- for a lot of reasons.
                    Here's two:
                    Easier to put up-- ONE person can actually do it!
                    NO sound or movement even in high winds.

                    Lt Col I slept through a California earthquake in one -- yes really -- B
                    93rd SHRoFLHU
                    www.93rdhighlanders.com
                    THE Thin Red Line


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • larrylozon
                    Craig Williams wrote: Please Larry, Not the wall tent thing again. It is better to use what they used ….. Sir: The wall tent was used by USA Officers and
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jan 8, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Craig Williams wrote:


                      Please Larry,

                      Not the wall tent thing again.
                      It is better to use what they used …..




                      Sir:

                      The wall tent was used by USA Officers and some Sergeants during the
                      war of 1812.

                      You forget Sir I am from Chatham, Ontario and at the capture of
                      Detroit WALL tents were spoils of War.

                      These tents were issued to Essex and Kent Militia Regiments and were
                      put into stores at Fort Amherstburg (Malden)

                      A correct persona of the 41st Regt. would be with tents (wedges and
                      walls) marked US4th. Essex and Kent Militias armed with
                      Charlevelles would also be correct

                      Spoils of War issued to Crown Forces


                      Yrs.,
                      L2
                    • Craig Williams
                      Sir, The wall tent thing is contentious to say the least but,,, The tent that Feltoe uses is barely tolerable as he has been able at least find a thin thread
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jan 8, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Sir,

                        The wall tent thing is contentious to say the least but,,,
                        The tent that Feltoe uses is barely tolerable as he has been able at
                        least find a thin thread of historical evidence to back it up.
                        That it was used in Canada? Who knows but his main evidence is from
                        european sources.
                        If there is an Essex and Kent Militia reenacted then they could
                        arguably use them as you have described.
                        The problem is the mass of militia and some regulars that are using
                        the wall tent erroneously.
                        It would be a boon to get those people out of their wall tents and
                        into bells as they are not likely to go with three wedges, (not
                        spacious enough for this lot I'm afraid.).

                        As per the issue of these "spoils" to the 41st. If there's evidence
                        to support them using them, that's cool. But I believe the 41st were
                        outfitted with tents at Ft. George early in the war.
                        ( And it would most likely be springfields and whitneys or gov.
                        contract muskets not likely "charlevilles" by the 1812 war).


                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > A correct persona of the 41st Regt. would be with tents (wedges and
                        > walls) marked US4th. Essex and Kent Militias armed with
                        > Charlevelles would also be correct
                        >
                        > Spoils of War issued to Crown Forces
                        >
                        > Yrs.,
                        > L2
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Craig Williams
                        I will apologize to Mr Feltoe right now as my comments were not tempered for a public list, I had thought I sent this to a private eddress and my personal
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jan 8, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I will apologize to Mr Feltoe right now as my comments were not
                          tempered for a public list, I had thought I sent this to a private
                          eddress and my personal opinion of a long discussion about his
                          research into the tent that he uses shouldn't have made it to this
                          public forum.
                          I do believe that he has done due dilligence on this matter, but in
                          the end it is of course entirely up to all of us to please ourselves
                          as to the level of authenticity we wish to uphold.

                          Craig

                          On 8-Jan-07, at 11:20 AM, Craig Williams wrote:

                          > Sir,
                          >
                          > The wall tent thing is contentious to say the least but,,,
                          > The tent that Feltoe uses is barely tolerable as he has been able at
                          > least find a thin thread of historical evidence to back it up.
                          > That it was used in Canada? Who knows but his main evidence is from
                          > european sources.
                          > If there is an Essex and Kent Militia reenacted then they could
                          > arguably use them as you have described.
                          > The problem is the mass of militia and some regulars that are using
                          > the wall tent erroneously.
                          > It would be a boon to get those people out of their wall tents and
                          > into bells as they are not likely to go with three wedges, (not
                          > spacious enough for this lot I'm afraid.).
                          >
                          > As per the issue of these "spoils" to the 41st. If there's evidence
                          > to support them using them, that's cool. But I believe the 41st were
                          > outfitted with tents at Ft. George early in the war.
                          > ( And it would most likely be springfields and whitneys or gov.
                          > contract muskets not likely "charlevilles" by the 1812 war).
                          >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > A correct persona of the 41st Regt. would be with tents (wedges and
                          > > walls) marked US4th. Essex and Kent Militias armed with
                          > > Charlevelles would also be correct
                          > >
                          > > Spoils of War issued to Crown Forces
                          > >
                          > > Yrs.,
                          > > L2
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • larrylozon
                          Craig Williams wrote: The tent that Feltoe uses is barely tolerable …. Sir, I cannot converse about Mr. Flotoe s tent But I have seen
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jan 8, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Craig Williams <sgtwarner@...> wrote:


                            The tent that Feltoe uses is barely tolerable ….




                            Sir,

                            I cannot converse about Mr. Flotoe's tent
                            But I have seen reference to Mr. Abolt, (US7th); Bennett (US1st) and
                            Lundgren (US6th). Also the US4th (Fort Detroit) using walls during
                            the war of 1812.

                            Ft. George may have ...
                            but Fort Amherstburg (Malden) was not...
                            they got theirs from capturing Fort Detroit..

                            Crown Forces in Southwestern Ontario (Western District) was hurting
                            for supplies

                            Yrs.,
                            L2
                          • History
                            An interesting topic of conversation. Although the conversation regarding what tent is correct and what is not, comes down to the final decision of the
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jan 8, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              An interesting topic of conversation.

                              Although the conversation regarding what tent is correct and what is not, comes down to the final decision of the reenactor. Is it practical for todays use? Many of us bring our wives and children. As this support group may fit the part of the typical camp follower, you can rest assure that none of them wishes to really re-create the exact living conditions that the camp followers of 1812 would have endure. So we compromise. They're happier for it and so are we as they share in our hobby.

                              Are we deceiving the public? Maybe, but they don't know or really care. If they ask, we tell them, so it is not a dark secret we are trying to hide.

                              How accurate is the information of what is correct and what is not? Now that is the really question to ask. If practicality say we must go with a wall tent, when a wedge should have been used, then we should at least know the correct answer - if one exists. Did all of the enlisted men have wedge tents or were assigned to one? Did they go without?

                              Also, since the average homo sapiens of this century are generally taller by 6-8" from our 1812 ancestors, must we endure the hardship of standing up in a tent that is immediately too small for us or can we overlook this.

                              I have seen a few period paintings going back as far as the 1300's and the wall tent can always be found. I can't say the same about the wedge, but I am sure that its there as well.

                              The militias and the regulars of US and British forces would have started correctly when mustering their units to formation with the available standing orders. Once in the field and after the long march, battles, skirmishes, hard work, sickness and poor health, limited food and absence of family would probably no longer look the same in a short period of time. So the concept of using capture equipment makes perfect sense and is of course accepted fact.

                              So if anyone questions the wall tent that my family and I will be using this year, they will have to recall, that I was lucky enough to capture one from the enemy and given permission by my officer to use it. Alternatively, since I portray with an artillary unit, the wall tent is actually being used as a lab for preparing charges. There is truth in both excuses just as there is truth in the unquestionably fact, that if the wife isn't happy neither will I be. ;-)

                              regards,

                              John Sek
                            • Mark Dickerson
                              But you have more choices rather than just a wedge or a wall. A bell tent allows you to comfortably stand up, is big enough for a family, and is absolutely
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jan 8, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                But you have more choices rather than just a wedge or a wall. A bell tent allows you to comfortably stand up, is big enough for a family, and is absolutely correct for the time period, no questions asked, no problems.

                                Mark Dickerson


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: History
                                To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 7:53 PM
                                Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] Wall vs wedge vs bell tent


                                An interesting topic of conversation.

                                Although the conversation regarding what tent is correct and what is not, comes down to the final decision of the reenactor. Is it practical for todays use? Many of us bring our wives and children. As this support group may fit the part of the typical camp follower, you can rest assure that none of them wishes to really re-create the exact living conditions that the camp followers of 1812 would have endure. So we compromise. They're happier for it and so are we as they share in our hobby.

                                Are we deceiving the public? Maybe, but they don't know or really care. If they ask, we tell them, so it is not a dark secret we are trying to hide.

                                How accurate is the information of what is correct and what is not? Now that is the really question to ask. If practicality say we must go with a wall tent, when a wedge should have been used, then we should at least know the correct answer - if one exists. Did all of the enlisted men have wedge tents or were assigned to one? Did they go without?

                                Also, since the average homo sapiens of this century are generally taller by 6-8" from our 1812 ancestors, must we endure the hardship of standing up in a tent that is immediately too small for us or can we overlook this.

                                I have seen a few period paintings going back as far as the 1300's and the wall tent can always be found. I can't say the same about the wedge, but I am sure that its there as well.

                                The militias and the regulars of US and British forces would have started correctly when mustering their units to formation with the available standing orders. Once in the field and after the long march, battles, skirmishes, hard work, sickness and poor health, limited food and absence of family would probably no longer look the same in a short period of time. So the concept of using capture equipment makes perfect sense and is of course accepted fact.

                                So if anyone questions the wall tent that my family and I will be using this year, they will have to recall, that I was lucky enough to capture one from the enemy and given permission by my officer to use it. Alternatively, since I portray with an artillary unit, the wall tent is actually being used as a lab for preparing charges. There is truth in both excuses just as there is truth in the unquestionably fact, that if the wife isn't happy neither will I be. ;-)

                                regards,

                                John Sek





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • John Harris
                                Oh God, not this dead horse again !!! ( Sigh) So by this analogy, the ONLY British forces who should have wall tents are units that can trace their records
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jan 8, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Oh God, not this dead horse again !!! ( Sigh) So by this analogy, the
                                  ONLY British forces who should have wall tents are units that can
                                  trace their records back to being issued captured US wall tents right?
                                  Let it go PLEASE ! This is why we have "military" camps
                                  and "civilian" camps. No more need be said, or rehashed, or
                                  debated,or what ever you want!
                                  Give it a rest !
                                  Hugs and Kisses to all.
                                  John Harris
                                  (Man of many Hat's)
                                  PS- US forces carried SPRINGFIELDS , not Charlevelles. (I'm working
                                  on getting one to improve my impression , research never stops)



                                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "larrylozon" <larrylozon@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Craig Williams wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Please Larry,
                                  >
                                  > Not the wall tent thing again.
                                  > It is better to use what they used …..
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Sir:
                                  >
                                  > The wall tent was used by USA Officers and some Sergeants during
                                  the
                                  > war of 1812.
                                  >
                                  > You forget Sir I am from Chatham, Ontario and at the capture of
                                  > Detroit WALL tents were spoils of War.
                                  >
                                  > These tents were issued to Essex and Kent Militia Regiments and
                                  were
                                  > put into stores at Fort Amherstburg (Malden)
                                  >
                                  > A correct persona of the 41st Regt. would be with tents (wedges and
                                  > walls) marked US4th. Essex and Kent Militias armed with
                                  > Charlevelles would also be correct
                                  >
                                  > Spoils of War issued to Crown Forces
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yrs.,
                                  > L2
                                  >
                                • Dale Kidd
                                  When all of this is said and done, I am reminded (literally, and rather forcefully, by my wife, who was reading over my shoulder!) that probably the vast
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jan 8, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    When all of this is said and done, I am reminded (literally, and
                                    rather forcefully, by my wife, who was reading over my shoulder!)
                                    that probably the vast majority of the men who participate in this
                                    hobby are able to do so only because we have taken some liberties
                                    with the historical accuracy of our encampments and involved our
                                    families in our passtime. It may be laudable to try to improve our
                                    accuracy in some areas of our portrayals, but we need to be ever
                                    mindful of the danger of alienating the large percentage of
                                    reenactors for whom this is a FAMILY hobby. If the thread-counters
                                    and authentinazis drive the families away, you can rest assured that
                                    within just a couple of years, all that will be left of the
                                    reenacting community will be a small handful of (rather lonely)
                                    single guys. Family involvement is absolutely essential to keeping
                                    this hobby alive... a fact my own unit has been learning the hard
                                    way, and is trying desperately to recover from the want of.

                                    As to the Bell Tent... I agree they are very nice, and altogether
                                    appropriate. I would dearly love to have one. Unfortunately, however,
                                    they are also very expensive! A quick look at my copy of the current
                                    Panther Primitives catalog shows the 12'6" diameter Bell Tent at some
                                    $300 more expensive than a 12' x 12' wall tent. And given that the
                                    vast majority of us do this on a budget, I'll give pretty good odds
                                    you won't see Bell Tents springing up like dandelions in our
                                    encampments anytime soon!

                                    My tuppence worth.

                                    ~Dale
                                  • larrylozon
                                    Dale Tell your wife, that is why there are usually two camps at an event. The Military camp with soldiers living in wedges and laid out as per the 1812 Army
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jan 9, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Dale

                                      Tell your wife, that is why there are usually two camps at an
                                      event.


                                      The Military camp with soldiers living in wedges and laid out as per
                                      the 1812 Army specs


                                      And a Militia Camp where FAMLILIES can have their comforts

                                      Yrs.,
                                      L2



                                      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Dale Kidd" <ucpm_gunner@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > When all of this is said and done, I am reminded (literally, and
                                      > rather forcefully, by my wife, who was reading over my shoulder!)
                                      > that probably the vast majority of the men who participate in this
                                      > hobby are able to do so only because we have taken some liberties
                                      > with the historical accuracy of our encampments and involved our
                                      > families in our passtime. It may be laudable to try to improve our
                                      > accuracy in some areas of our portrayals, but we need to be ever
                                      > mindful of the danger of alienating the large percentage of
                                      > reenactors for whom this is a FAMILY hobby. If the thread-counters
                                      > and authentinazis drive the families away, you can rest assured
                                      that
                                      > within just a couple of years, all that will be left of the
                                      > reenacting community will be a small handful of (rather lonely)
                                      > single guys. Family involvement is absolutely essential to keeping
                                      > this hobby alive... a fact my own unit has been learning the hard
                                      > way, and is trying desperately to recover from the want of.
                                      >
                                      > As to the Bell Tent... I agree they are very nice, and altogether
                                      > appropriate. I would dearly love to have one. Unfortunately,
                                      however,
                                      > they are also very expensive! A quick look at my copy of the
                                      current
                                      > Panther Primitives catalog shows the 12'6" diameter Bell Tent at
                                      some
                                      > $300 more expensive than a 12' x 12' wall tent. And given that the
                                      > vast majority of us do this on a budget, I'll give pretty good
                                      odds
                                      > you won't see Bell Tents springing up like dandelions in our
                                      > encampments anytime soon!
                                      >
                                      > My tuppence worth.
                                      >
                                      > ~Dale
                                      >
                                    • larrylozon
                                      John Harris wrote: Oh God, not this dead horse again !!! Commander Harris ,was it the Japanese Scotch that killed the horse?:^) Yrs., L2
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jan 9, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        "John Harris" wrote:

                                        Oh God, not this dead horse again !!!




                                        Commander Harris ,was it the Japanese Scotch that killed the horse?:^)

                                        Yrs.,
                                        L2
                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.