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Re: Coincidences of History

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  • Chris McKay
    Interesting connection, Gord, I hadn t noted that. By the way, though I m not sure this is what you were asking, the newly form Royal Regiment of Scotland
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 5, 2006
      Interesting connection, Gord, I hadn't noted that. By the way,
      though I'm not sure this is what you were asking, the newly form
      Royal Regiment of Scotland will be wearing a kilt and new cap badge
      throughout - even in the Royal Scots Borderers - the lowland
      battalion of the Regiment. Although I'm not sure it will have the
      same effect, it does make me think of the problems the government
      had in recruiting in the early nineteenth century - few people from
      Englad (or the lowlands of Scotland) particularly wanted to join
      Highland Regiments as they'd be forced to wear a kilt.

      > 2006.03.28 The Royal Regiment of Scotland
      >
      >
      >
      > formed by union of The Royal Scots, The Royal Highland Fusiliers,
      The
      > King's Own Scottish Borderers, The Black Watch, The Highlanders
      > (Seaforth, Gordons and Camerons), and The Argyll and Sutherland
      > Highlanders.
      >
      >
      >
      > - The Royal Scots Battalion RRS, redesignation of 1st Bn Royal
      Scots
      >
      > - The Royal Highland Fusiliers, 2nd Battalion RRS,
      >
      > redesignation of 1st Bn Royal Highland Fusiliers
      >
      > - The King's Own Scottish Borderers Battalion RRS,
      >
      > redesignation of 1st Bn King's Own Scottish Borderers
      >
      > - The Black Watch, 3rd Battalion RRS, redesignation of 1st Bn
      Black
      > Watch
      >
      > - The Highlanders, 4th Battalion RRS, redesignation of 1st Bn The
      > Highlanders
      >
      > - The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, 5th Battalion RRS,
      >
      > redesignation of 1st Bn Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders
      >
      >
      >
      > 2006.08.01 Royal Scots Bn and King's Own Scottish Borderers Bn
      > amalgamated to form The Royal Scots Borderers, 1st Battalion RRS.
      >
      >
      > It also needs to be stated that the 41st Regiment [1812] has been
      very
      > active and supportive of members of the Royal Highland Fusiliers
      > Regiment of Canada becoming involved in 1812 reenacting although
      as
      > Royal Navy gunners and sailors. Expect to see a new unit called
      the
      > HMS Ferret Ship's Boat Crew take to the water in 2007.
      >
      > I wonder if they will be wearing kilts?
      >
      > Gord Deans, Royal Navy [1812],
      > HMS Charwell Landing Party.
      >
    • BritcomHMP@aol.com
      In a message dated 05/11/2006 09:31:19 Central Standard Time, PrivateCannon@hotmail.com writes: the newly form Royal Regiment of Scotland will be wearing a
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 5, 2006
        In a message dated 05/11/2006 09:31:19 Central Standard Time,
        PrivateCannon@... writes:

        the newly form
        Royal Regiment of Scotland will be wearing a kilt and new cap badge
        throughout - even in the Royal Scots Borderers - the lowland
        battalion of the Regiment.


        Remember that when these amalgamations occur the old regiments cease to
        exist and the new regiment merely 'carries on the traditions' of the previous
        regiments. As one old soldier once said to me 'it's like taking a leek in pair
        of black trousers, perhaps no one notices, and you can have a nice warm feeling
        for a while, but you know it shouldn't be done and in the end it makes one
        feel very uncomfortable. Perhaps I should mention this chap, with a very long
        family history in the Blues resigned his commission because it was being
        amalgamated with a line regiment (the Royals).
        Also when I was asking Colonel Upton of the Royal Hussars what, if any 11th
        Lt. Dragoon/ Hussar badges or insignia the re-enactment unit should not use
        his reply was "Use what you like MY regiment ceased to exist in 1968!" (he was
        11th pre amalgamation)

        Cheers

        Tim


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Gordon Deans
        Roy, Sorry for the omission, but I was making a point regarding Scottish Regiments, not the Military Heritage Day. It was a pleasure to have your group fill
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 5, 2006
          Roy,

          Sorry for the omission, but I was making a point regarding Scottish
          Regiments, not the Military Heritage Day.

          It was a pleasure to have your group fill out our 1812 ranks.

          Gord

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "roy winders" <rangerroy50@...>
          To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 7:21 AM
          Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Coincidences of History


          | Not to mention The British Indian Dept. eh!
          |
          |
          | ----- Original Message ----
          | From: Gordon Deans <gord.deans@...>
          | To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
          | Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2006 4:24:03 AM
          | Subject: [WarOf1812] Coincidences of History
          |
          | On Saturday, October 28th, 2006, the Light Company of the Royal
          Scots
          | Regiment [1812] along with the 41st Regiment [1812] and the HMS
          | Charwell Landing Party of [1812] were invited to the armouries in
          | Cambridge to participate in the Military Heritage Day for the Royal
          | Highland Fusiliers Regiment of Canada which currently has nine
          members
          | serving in Afghanistan.
          |
          | This regiment also has sixteen active and trained gunners / members
          in
          | the HMS Charwell Landing Party [1812] including one of the members
          who
          | are serving in Afghanistan.
          |
          | However, the coincidence is that the Royal Highland Fusiliers
          Regiment
          | of Canada has an equivalent ancestor regiment in the Royal Highland
          | Fusiliers Regiment of the United Kingdom. On March 28th, 2006, this
          | was one of the regiments that was combined with the Royal Scots
          | Regiment of the United Kingdom to form the new Royal Regiment of
          | Scotland. So the Royal Scots Regiment [1812] now has an official
          | connection with the Royal Highland Fusiliers Regiment of Canada
          | through the joining of their ancestor regiments.
          |
          | As always, the Royal Scots remained the first battalion and the
          Royal
          | Highland Fusiliers became the second battalion of The Royal Regiment
          | of Scotland. Four other regiments were also combined into The Royal
          | Regiment of Scotland as detailed below.
          |
          | http://www.regiment s.org/regiments/ uk/inf/001SCOTS. htm
          |
          | 2006.03.28 The Royal Regiment of Scotland
          |
          | formed by union of The Royal Scots, The Royal Highland Fusiliers,
          The
          | King's Own Scottish Borderers, The Black Watch, The Highlanders
          | (Seaforth, Gordons and Camerons), and The Argyll and Sutherland
          | Highlanders.
          |
          | - The Royal Scots Battalion RRS, redesignation of 1st Bn Royal Scots
          |
          | - The Royal Highland Fusiliers, 2nd Battalion RRS,
          |
          | redesignation of 1st Bn Royal Highland Fusiliers
          |
          | - The King's Own Scottish Borderers Battalion RRS,
          |
          | redesignation of 1st Bn King's Own Scottish Borderers
          |
          | - The Black Watch, 3rd Battalion RRS, redesignation of 1st Bn Black
          | Watch
          |
          | - The Highlanders, 4th Battalion RRS, redesignation of 1st Bn The
          | Highlanders
          |
          | - The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, 5th Battalion RRS,
          |
          | redesignation of 1st Bn Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders
          |
          | 2006.08.01 Royal Scots Bn and King's Own Scottish Borderers Bn
          | amalgamated to form The Royal Scots Borderers, 1st Battalion RRS.
          |
          | It also needs to be stated that the 41st Regiment [1812] has been
          very
          | active and supportive of members of the Royal Highland Fusiliers
          | Regiment of Canada becoming involved in 1812 reenacting although as
          | Royal Navy gunners and sailors. Expect to see a new unit called the
          | HMS Ferret Ship's Boat Crew take to the water in 2007.
          |
          | I wonder if they will be wearing kilts?
          |
          | Gord Deans, Royal Navy [1812],
          | HMS Charwell Landing Party.
          |
          |
          |
          |
          |
          |
          | [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          |
          |
          |
          | The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
          hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the
          fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
          |
          | Unit Contact information for North America:
          | Crown Forces Unit Listing:
          | http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
          | American Forces Unit Listing
          | http://usforces1812.tripod.com
          |
          | WAR OF 1812 EVENTS LIST:
          | http://royal.scots.tripod.com/warof1812eventslist
          | Yahoo! Groups Links
          |
          |
          |
        • roy winders
          Thanks Gord ... From: Gordon Deans To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2006 7:14:51 PM Subject: Re: [WarOf1812]
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 6, 2006
            Thanks Gord


            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Gordon Deans <gord.deans@...>
            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2006 7:14:51 PM
            Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Coincidences of History

            Roy,

            Sorry for the omission, but I was making a point regarding Scottish
            Regiments, not the Military Heritage Day.

            It was a pleasure to have your group fill out our 1812 ranks.

            Gord

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "roy winders" <rangerroy50@ yahoo.ca>
            To: <WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com>
            Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 7:21 AM
            Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Coincidences of History

            | Not to mention The British Indian Dept. eh!
            |
            |
            | ----- Original Message ----
            | From: Gordon Deans <gord.deans@sympatic o.ca>
            | To: WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com
            | Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2006 4:24:03 AM
            | Subject: [WarOf1812] Coincidences of History
            |
            | On Saturday, October 28th, 2006, the Light Company of the Royal
            Scots
            | Regiment [1812] along with the 41st Regiment [1812] and the HMS
            | Charwell Landing Party of [1812] were invited to the armouries in
            | Cambridge to participate in the Military Heritage Day for the Royal
            | Highland Fusiliers Regiment of Canada which currently has nine
            members
            | serving in Afghanistan.
            |
            | This regiment also has sixteen active and trained gunners / members
            in
            | the HMS Charwell Landing Party [1812] including one of the members
            who
            | are serving in Afghanistan.
            |
            | However, the coincidence is that the Royal Highland Fusiliers
            Regiment
            | of Canada has an equivalent ancestor regiment in the Royal Highland
            | Fusiliers Regiment of the United Kingdom. On March 28th, 2006, this
            | was one of the regiments that was combined with the Royal Scots
            | Regiment of the United Kingdom to form the new Royal Regiment of
            | Scotland. So the Royal Scots Regiment [1812] now has an official
            | connection with the Royal Highland Fusiliers Regiment of Canada
            | through the joining of their ancestor regiments.
            |
            | As always, the Royal Scots remained the first battalion and the
            Royal
            | Highland Fusiliers became the second battalion of The Royal Regiment
            | of Scotland. Four other regiments were also combined into The Royal
            | Regiment of Scotland as detailed below.
            |
            | http://www.regiment s.org/regiments/ uk/inf/001SCOTS. htm
            |
            | 2006.03.28 The Royal Regiment of Scotland
            |
            | formed by union of The Royal Scots, The Royal Highland Fusiliers,
            The
            | King's Own Scottish Borderers, The Black Watch, The Highlanders
            | (Seaforth, Gordons and Camerons), and The Argyll and Sutherland
            | Highlanders.
            |
            | - The Royal Scots Battalion RRS, redesignation of 1st Bn Royal Scots
            |
            | - The Royal Highland Fusiliers, 2nd Battalion RRS,
            |
            | redesignation of 1st Bn Royal Highland Fusiliers
            |
            | - The King's Own Scottish Borderers Battalion RRS,
            |
            | redesignation of 1st Bn King's Own Scottish Borderers
            |
            | - The Black Watch, 3rd Battalion RRS, redesignation of 1st Bn Black
            | Watch
            |
            | - The Highlanders, 4th Battalion RRS, redesignation of 1st Bn The
            | Highlanders
            |
            | - The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, 5th Battalion RRS,
            |
            | redesignation of 1st Bn Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders
            |
            | 2006.08.01 Royal Scots Bn and King's Own Scottish Borderers Bn
            | amalgamated to form The Royal Scots Borderers, 1st Battalion RRS.
            |
            | It also needs to be stated that the 41st Regiment [1812] has been
            very
            | active and supportive of members of the Royal Highland Fusiliers
            | Regiment of Canada becoming involved in 1812 reenacting although as
            | Royal Navy gunners and sailors. Expect to see a new unit called the
            | HMS Ferret Ship's Boat Crew take to the water in 2007.
            |
            | I wonder if they will be wearing kilts?
            |
            | Gord Deans, Royal Navy [1812],
            | HMS Charwell Landing Party.
            |
            |
            |
            |
            |
            |
            | [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            |
            |
            |
            | The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
            hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the
            fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
            |
            | Unit Contact information for North America:
            | Crown Forces Unit Listing:
            | http://1812crownfor ces.tripod. com
            | American Forces Unit Listing
            | http://usforces1812 .tripod.com
            |
            | WAR OF 1812 EVENTS LIST:
            | http://royal. scots.tripod. com/warof1812eve ntslist
            | Yahoo! Groups Links
            |
            |
            |






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • larrylozon
            Chris McKay writes: … they d be forced to wear a kilt I have been emailing an X-Colonel of the King s Regiment now UK Army Staff about the recent
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 6, 2006
              Chris McKay" writes:

              "… they'd be forced to wear a kilt"





              I have been emailing an X-Colonel of the King's Regiment now UK Army
              Staff about the recent amalgamation of the King's Regiment to the
              Duke of Lancaster's Regiment

              The Duke of Lancaster's Regiment was formed from the King's Own
              Royal Border Regiment, the King's Regiment, and the Queen's
              Lancashire Regiment on 1st July 2006.

              I asked him about traditions and wanting to be in a certain Regiment.

              He said' "If a soldier is uncomfortable in a regiment he is always
              free to transfer"

              Yrs.,
              L2
            • larrylozon
              I am researching The British Indian Department Uniform (1810 - 1816) I am using HIS MAJESTY S INDIAN ALLIES British Indian Policy in The Defence Of Canada,
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 6, 2006
                I am researching The British Indian Department Uniform (1810 - 1816)


                I am using

                HIS MAJESTY'S INDIAN ALLIES
                British Indian Policy in The Defence Of Canada, 1774-1815
                Robert S. Allen
                ISBN 1-55002-175-3

                -------------

                Fort Malden

                That has original documents and tail coats of British Indian
                Department Agents and Officers

                -------------------


                http://www.manitobachiefs.com/treaty/timeline.html

                1783 [Indian Officers' Land]


                "In 1783, a grant of land was made to officers of the British Indian
                Department. These officers, Alexander McKee, Matthew Elliott,
                William Caldwell, and Henry Bird ..."
                --------------

                Canadian and Ontario Archives


                That has original documents from The British Indian Department
                -------------

                Original Portraits such as:

                Uniform as shown in a portrait of William McKay (1816) and specified
                that McKay be shown in British Indian Department uniform

                "When founded (The British Indian Department ) Officers wore red
                tail coats with green collars and cuffs (much like the Army) later
                in the War of 1812 the coat changed to Blue facings ..."

                -----------

                http://www.ammsa.com/classroom/CLASS3Indianaffairs.html

                The History of Indian Affairs
                By Kenneth Williams
                Windspeaker Staff Writer
                Ottawa Canada

                "... In 1755, the British Crown established ... the British Indian
                Department, and, in 1860, the responsibility for Indian affairs was
                transferred from the government of Great Britain to the Province of
                Canada.

                INDIAN DEPARTMENT -- UPPER CANADA

                The following is a list of Canadian officers who participated with
                the British Forces for the INDIAN DEPARTMENT -- UPPER CANADA during
                the War of 1812 - 1815.


                1 Deputy Superintendent-General and Deputy Inspector-General
                Lt.-Colonel William Class, 2 July 1796

                2. ................

                ---------------

                to name a few sources ...


                If anyone knows of 'ORIGINAL' documentation on the British Indian
                Department uniform (1810 - 1816) please contact me off this Yahoo
                Group at: larrylozon (at) yahoo.ca


                Thanking you in advance

                Yrs.,
                L2
              • Richard Hardman
                Does anyone know where I can buy or borrow a copy of Robert Allen s book, The British Indian Department and the Frontier in the North? Richard Hardman British
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 28, 2008
                  Does anyone know where I can buy or borrow a copy of Robert Allen's
                  book, The British Indian Department and the Frontier in the North?

                  Richard Hardman
                  British Indian Department
                • ronaldjdale@netscape.net
                  There is an off chance that it is still available from the Queen s Printer in Ottawa or at the Government bookstore in Toronto. I have a copy at work and will
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 28, 2008
                    There is an off chance that it is still available from the Queen's Printer in Ottawa or at the Government bookstore in Toronto.



                    I have a copy at work and will look up the ISBN number for you.



                    Ron


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Richard Hardman <shelldrake@...>
                    To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 8:08 pm
                    Subject: [War Of 1812] The British Indian Department







                    Does anyone know where I can buy or borrow a copy of Robert Allen's
                    book, The British Indian Department and the Frontier in the North?

                    Richard Hardman
                    British Indian Department





                    ________________________________________________________________________
                    More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! - http://webmail.aim.com


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • ronaldjdale@netscape.net
                    Hello Richard, There are two studies, one based on the other.  You can still get the Dundurn Press book at Chapters etc. Ron Allen, Robert S. “The British
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 29, 2008
                      Hello Richard,



                      There are two studies, one based on the other.  You can still get the Dundurn Press book at Chapters etc.



                      Ron



                      Allen, Robert S. “The British Indian Department and the Frontier in North America, 1755-1830.” Canadian Historic Sites: Occasional Papers in Archaeology and History/Lieux historiques canadiens: Cahiers d’archéologies et d’histoire. No. 14. Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, 1975.

                       

                       

                      His Majesty's Indian Allies - British Indian Policy in the Defence of Canada 1774-1815

                      Price: $34.99
                      ISBN13: 9781550021844


                      Publisher:  Dundurn Press

                       

                       

                       





                      ________________________________________________________________________
                      More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! - http://webmail.aim.com


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • John
                      ... Hi Richard: Where do you hail from. Most libraries should carry it in Ontario. Cheers John MacLeod
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 30, 2008
                        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Hardman" <shelldrake@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Does anyone know where I can buy or borrow a copy of Robert Allen's
                        > book, The British Indian Department and the Frontier in the North?
                        >
                        > Richard Hardman
                        > British Indian Department
                        >

                        Hi Richard:

                        Where do you hail from. Most libraries should carry it in Ontario.

                        Cheers John MacLeod
                      • Larry Lozon
                        May I also suggest His Majesty s Indian Allies British Indian policy in the defence of Canada, 1774-1815 by Robert S. Allen Dundurn Press, c1993, 1992 or
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 30, 2008
                          May I also suggest


                          " His Majesty's Indian Allies"
                          British Indian policy in the defence of Canada, 1774-1815
                          by Robert S. Allen Dundurn Press, c1993, 1992

                          or is this the book you seek?

                          Yrs.,
                          L2



                          --- "Richard Hardman" wrote:

                          Does anyone know where I can buy or borrow a copy of Robert Allen's
                          book, The British Indian Department and the Frontier in the North?
                        • Larry Lozon
                          Kitchener s lPublick Library has it If you live in Ontario an `Inter Library Loan is available Yrs., L2 PS: Good to hear from you Brother John way out there
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jan 30, 2008
                            Kitchener's lPublick Library has it

                            If you live in Ontario an `Inter Library Loan' is available


                            Yrs.,
                            L2

                            PS: Good to hear from you Brother John way out there in the Western
                            District
                            Another good book: "The Western District" ISBN 0-9691611-2-3



                            --- "John" wrote:

                            Hi Richard:

                            Where do you hail from.
                            Most libraries should carry it in Ontario.

                            Cheers John MacLeod>
                          • RICHARD HARDMAN
                            Thanks to all who helped. I will follow-up on all threads and let you know how I made out. Thanks again Larry Lozon wrote: Kitchener s
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jan 30, 2008
                              Thanks to all who helped. I will follow-up on all threads and let you know how I made out.

                              Thanks again

                              Larry Lozon <larrylozon@...> wrote:

                              Kitchener's lPublick Library has it

                              If you live in Ontario an `Inter Library Loan' is available

                              Yrs.,
                              L2

                              PS: Good to hear from you Brother John way out there in the Western
                              District
                              Another good book: "The Western District" ISBN 0-9691611-2-3

                              --- "John" wrote:

                              Hi Richard:

                              Where do you hail from.
                              Most libraries should carry it in Ontario.

                              Cheers John MacLeod>






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