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Re: British Artillery

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  • revwargunner
    We already have a grasshopper carriage but it is the wrong one. Our tube is a light infantry brass 3pdr Verbrugen. If you look in Grasshoppers and Butterflies
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 3, 2006
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      We already have a grasshopper carriage but it is the wrong one.
      Our tube is a light infantry brass 3pdr Verbrugen. If you look in
      Grasshoppers and Butterflies on page 12 the bottom tube is the same as
      the one that we have. In the reasearch we have done this tube appears
      to have been om a Congreve carriage.
      As you mention Fort Malden I will phone a friend of mine who works at
      the fort and ask him to put a copy aside for me.
      The only thing I need is the plans. I have all the wood (white oak) My
      father is a blacksmith and have access to all the equipment that we
      will need. This I know because we have already built a grasshopper
      carriage.
      If you know where a set af plans may be obtained please let me know.
      Thank you for your adviceand help

      Pete Walker
      Kings Royal Yorkers
      Artillery


      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Gordon Deans" <gord.deans@...> wrote:
      >
      > If you are planning to build a full-scale British light 3-pounder
      > field carriage be advised that the current retail price is $8,500 US.
      > You will need a set of full-scale plans which will also be
      > comparatively expensive whether you get them from an archives or a
      > current manufacturer. Do-it-yourself projects from pictures and plans
      > in publicly available books will only be as good as your eyesight and
      > as good as the audience's eyesight is bad. The only possible shortcut
      > would be to make friends with a gun crew and copy their carriage and
      > hope that it was authentic.
      >
      > To be repetitive, this is my first artillery reference of choice. I
      > have most of the other books available as backup but rarely find
      > anything of additional value. This book can still be obtained from
      > the Volunteers of Fort Malden gift shop at Fort Malden in Amherstburg
      > Ontario for $40 CAN. (We purchased another copy this past weekend for
      > our membership.)
      >
      > BRITISH SMOOTH-BORE ARTILLERY:
      > A TECHNOLOGICAL STUDY TO SUPPORT IDENTIFICATION, ACQUISITION,
      > RESTORATION, REPRODUCTION, AND INTERPRETATION OF ARTILLERY
      > AT NATIONAL HISTORIC PARKS IN CANADA
      > by DAVID McCONNELL, 1988, ISBN 0-660-12750-4.
      > See Travelling Carriages, pages 188 - 210.
      >
      > In over-simplified terms, 3-Pounders occurred in a range of sizes from
      > LIGHT which were very roughly 3 foot barrel, 3 hundred weight barrel,
      > 3 inch bore, OR LESS, through SEMI-LIGHT which were roughly 4 foot
      > barrel, over 3-4 hundred weight barrel, 3 inch bore, and HEAVY which
      > were very roughly 6 foot barrel, 6 hundred weight barrel, 3 inch bore,
      > OR MORE.
      >
      > The variations and contradictions involving LIGHT 3-pounders are too
      > numerous to list. However a few are instructive. They were
      > considered obsolete before 1800, yet new models were issued in 1810
      > and 1813. They impressed our Native Allies and some American units
      > but were ineffective against even log curtained forts. New models
      > continued to be introduced and used up to 1859.
      >
      > Brass Guns - 3-Pounder. See pages 47-50 which indicate 7 examples of
      > brass light 3-pounders in Parks Canada collections dating from 1779 to
      > 1810.
      >
      > Iron Guns - 3-Pounder. See pages 92-94 which indicate only 3 examples
      > of iron light 3-pounders in Parks Canada collections but without the
      > Royal Cypher and the broad arrow suggesting they belonged to the
      > Hudson's Bay Company.
      >
      > Travelling Carriages. See pages 188-210. Numerous definitions,
      > dimensions and explanations. Many side and top view diagrams except
      > when reduced to fit 8 1/2" x 11" pages renders the text unreadable. If
      > you need working plans you will have to refer back to the originals in
      > the archives.
      >
      > Page 199 Plan of a Galloper Carriage.
      > Page 200 Views of Light 3-Pounder Mountain Service Carriage.
      > Page 203 Plan of Light 3-Pounder Colonial Service Carriage.
      >
      > Page 195 Plan of Heavy 6-Pounder Travelling Carriage.
      > Page 202 Plan of Light 6-Pounder Carriage.
      > Page 204 Plan of 6-Pounder S.B. Field Carriage.
      >
      > All of the above interspersed with other sizes of carriages which are
      > similar in design except for the dimensions.
      >
      > Our unit's brass and iron "3-Pounders" are both mounted upon Butterfly
      > carriages by William Congreve which can be distinguished from the
      > Grasshopper carriages of James Pattison by the presence of two side
      > boxes resting on the axletrees and the ammunition box between the
      > brackets to the rear of the gun.
      >
      > The scale of a 3-Pounder Field Carriage is closely related to the
      > LIGHT 3-pounder barrel statistics which can vary from under 3 feet to
      > almost 4 feet (SEMI-LIGHT) and from 2 1/2 hundred weight to over 3
      > hundred weight (1 hundred weight = 112 pounds). Mismatches can be
      > extremely difficult and tiring to move and work in the field. Balance
      > and proportion is everything.
      >
      > Craig is correct, "Grasshoppers and Butterflies" by Adrian Caruana is
      > the best other source but its plans and views are even more reduced in
      > size and difficult to decipher.
      >
      > "On Sunday July 17, [1814 ... ] At 1:10 PM the British fired their
      > brass 3-pounder cannon and the battle [of the Prairie Dogs] for
      > Prairie du Chien began.15 Initially the British concentrated their
      > artillery fire on the Governor Clark managing several direct hits.
      > Some of these hits caused the boat to begin leaking, and after two
      > hours the men on board cut their cable and floated downstream for
      > repairs. The regulars in the fort [Fort Shelby], seeing the boat
      > leaving, called for it to return and reputedly fired a round across
      > its bow to induce it to do so.16 The Governor Clark stopped briefly at
      > the mouth of the Wisconsin river to repair some of the damage and
      > continued down river.
      > ...
      > For the next two days the fighting continued at Prairie du Chien. Both
      > sides kept up a relatively constant but ineffectual fire on one
      > another. But by the evening of July 19, things were getting desperate
      > for the Americans. It had now become obvious that the Clark was not
      > returning, the ammunition supply for the [American] 3- and 6-pounder
      > cannons was nearly expended, and there were no hospital supplies. The
      > water supply was also exhausted. During the fighting the well had gone
      > dry, and an attempt to deepen it resulted in its collapse. The final
      > problem that forced the American officers to decide to surrender was
      > evidence of British intentions to attack the wooden works with red-hot
      > iron shot.18 "
      >
      > The British drag a brass 3-pounder all of the way from Michilimackinac
      > to Prairie du Chien, Wisconsin, mainly to impress their Native Allies
      > of their commitment to the expedition and end up driving off a ship in
      > the river and defeating a fort armed with a 3-pounder and a 6-pounder
      > with the perceived threat of firing some red-hot cannon balls and
      > possibly burning some log walls in the fort. A more competent
      > American fort commander would have died laughing in the face of a
      > British enemy armed only with one 3-pounder cannon.
      >
      > C'est la Guerre.
      >
      > Gord Deans, Gunner,
      > HMS Charwell Landing Party,
      > Royal Navy, Upper Canada.
      >
      > P.S. Please don't even get me started about Proctor.
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Craig Williams" <sgtwarner@...>
      > To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 12:10 PM
      > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] British Artillery
      >
      >
      > | Ok, who has a copy of "Butterfly's and Grasshoppers" for this man?
      > |
      > | I would like to know the consensus of those who make artillery
      > | their vocation as to the likelyhood or level of deployment of the
      > | 3pdr on a field carriage during the 1812 war.
      > | The Royal Marines were still using this gun as it was light and
      > | easily transported in the boats, but I have not come across specific
      > | reference to them being deployed as an infantry support weapon with
      > | the army in Upper Canada.
      > | 6's and 9's yes, but 3's...?
      > |
      > | Craig Williams
      > |
      > |
      > | > Hi I am looking to find plans for a Congreve Carriage for a Light
      > | > Infantry 3pdr. This is also known as a Butterfly Carriage.
      > | > Plans for a Light 6pdr Traveling Carriage would be a large help.
      > | > Thank You
      >
    • Dale Kidd
      From what I ve read, you seem to be right on target with that, Craig. Light 3 s were considered pretty anemic, and were only used by the Marines, as you
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 3, 2006
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        From what I've read, you seem to be right on target with that, Craig.
        Light 3's were considered pretty anemic, and were only used by the
        Marines, as you mentioned, or as highly mobile support weapons
        ("galloper guns") for infantry units.

        Hey, most of us who do artillery presentations at 1812 events would
        absolutely LOVE to use 6,8,9, or even 12 pounders! However, if we do
        that, Craig, we're going to have to conscript pretty much your entire
        unit to drag the bloody things around the field. Also, our safety zone
        on many of the smaller reenactment sites is going to restrict your
        infantry to fighting within 5 yards or so of the opposite treeline, or
        maybe back in the woods!

        No,I think the 3 and maybe 4 pounders are a pretty good fit for
        reenactments. They give a good bang, and allow appropriate
        demonstration of gunnery procedures, but are light enough for
        relatively easy movement and have a safety zone of only about 50 yards
        (so we can leave you infantry types some space to play in).

        That said, I must admit that I am not happy about the number of 1/2
        and 1/3 scale guns being fielded at events. (I say this even though my
        own unit is among the offenders.) In my opinion, these pieces are
        suitable only for use as light swivel guns on ships or longboats, and
        are very misleading to the public. I do wish more units were able to
        afford full 1/1 scale guns more easily, but the bloody things are
        very, very expensive... to purchase, transport, and fire (a blank
        charge for a 12 pdr. would be over a pound of powder every shot). We
        need to find ways to address this issue. Surely there is someone out
        there producing (or who CAN produce) gun barrels and carriages that
        don't cost a fortune! After all, we're talking 250 year old technology
        here... it ain't exactly cutting edge!

        Dale Kidd
        Master at Arms
        H.M. Provincial Marine




        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Craig Williams <sgtwarner@...> wrote:
        >
        > Ok, who has a copy of "Butterfly's and Grasshoppers" for this man?
        >
        > I would like to know the consensus of those who make artillery
        > their vocation as to the likelyhood or level of deployment of the
        > 3pdr on a field carriage during the 1812 war.
        > The Royal Marines were still using this gun as it was light and
        > easily transported in the boats, but I have not come across specific
        > reference to them being deployed as an infantry support weapon with
        > the army in Upper Canada.
        > 6's and 9's yes, but 3's...?
        >
        > Craig Williams
      • Craig Williams
        Thank you Gordon, Nicely done. Craig ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 3, 2006
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          Thank you Gordon,
          Nicely done.

          Craig
          >
          > "On Sunday July 17, [1814 ... ] At 1:10 PM the British fired their
          > brass 3-pounder cannon and the battle [of the Prairie Dogs] for
          > Prairie du Chien began.15 Initially the British concentrated their
          > artillery fire on the Governor Clark managing several direct hits.
          > Some of these hits caused the boat to begin leaking, and after two
          > hours the men on board cut their cable and floated downstream for
          > repairs. The regulars in the fort [Fort Shelby], seeing the boat
          > leaving, called for it to return and reputedly fired a round across
          > its bow to induce it to do so.16 The Governor Clark stopped briefly at
          > the mouth of the Wisconsin river to repair some of the damage and
          > continued down river.
          > .


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Peter Monahan
          Surely there is someone out there producing (or who CAN produce) gun barrels and carriages that don t cost a fortune! Dale There is a gentleman in Toronto, a
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 4, 2006
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            "Surely there is someone out there producing (or who CAN produce) gun barrels and carriages that don't cost a fortune!"

            Dale

            There is a gentleman in Toronto, a good friend of mine, who is interested in doing that very thing. The sticker is, of course, that there is no "economy of scale" because there simply are not enough people out there who want a cannon to park in their driveway!

            This gent has already built the carriage for one of Ft. York's guns (the 12lb, I think)and is looking to do more.

            If you or anyone else is interested, send me a PM (petemonahan@...) and I'd be happy to put you in contact.

            P Monahan, SM, CFNA
          • larrylozon
            Pete Walker wrote: … Our tube is a light infantry brass 3pdr … The only thing I need is the plans… Mr. Walker If you decide to forget the plans and let
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 4, 2006
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              Pete Walker wrote:


              "… Our tube is a light infantry brass 3pdr … The only thing I need
              is the plans…"






              Mr. Walker


              If you decide to forget the plans and let your father off the hook


              Contact

              Ken Fisher
              RR #1
              22799 Kintyre Line
              Rodney, Ontario
              Canada N0L 2C0
              (519) 785 – 2215

              He has no email



              Ken made a Naval and Royal Artillery carriage for my tube and I was
              very impressed - - especially for the price which was not a second
              mortgage!

              If you however decide to look for the plans I suggest you contact
              the UK Army
              www.army.mod.uk/royalartillery


              Your contact at Fort Malden would be John MacLeod
              John.MacLeod@...

              One should be prepared to offer to PAY for the plans it is only
              right and just that one do this ...


              Yrs.,
              L2
            • revwargunner
              The plans will not be forgoten. This is a project that will be done. John is a friend and I have been in contact already. Thank you for the information Pete
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 4, 2006
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                The plans will not be forgoten. This is a project that will be done.
                John is a friend and I have been in contact already.
                Thank you for the information
                Pete



                In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "larrylozon" <larrylozon@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Pete Walker wrote:
                >
                >
                > "… Our tube is a light infantry brass 3pdr … The only thing I need
                > is the plans…"
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Mr. Walker
                >
                >
                > If you decide to forget the plans and let your father off the hook
                >
                >
                > Contact
                >
                > Ken Fisher
                > RR #1
                > 22799 Kintyre Line
                > Rodney, Ontario
                > Canada N0L 2C0
                > (519) 785 – 2215
                >
                > He has no email
                >
                >
                >
                > Ken made a Naval and Royal Artillery carriage for my tube and I was
                > very impressed - - especially for the price which was not a second
                > mortgage!
                >
                > If you however decide to look for the plans I suggest you contact
                > the UK Army
                > www.army.mod.uk/royalartillery
                >
                >
                > Your contact at Fort Malden would be John MacLeod
                > John.MacLeod@...
                >
                > One should be prepared to offer to PAY for the plans it is only
                > right and just that one do this ...
                >
                >
                > Yrs.,
                > L2
                >
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