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Umbrella Groups

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  • Sean
    Jim has countered Jesse on doing things in a typically Canadian fashion and I say neither has really got it right. (And Jesse countered back before I had a
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 27, 1998
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      Jim has countered Jesse on doing things in a typically Canadian fashion and
      I say neither has really got it right.
      (And Jesse countered back before I had a chance to write this but...and now
      so has Jim Burrill) You see, we are doing things in a very Canadian
      fashion...We've begun talking about something that we all hope to implement
      and that is as far as it's gone (as far as I know). No need to actually get
      anything done, let's just discuss. In fact let's set up a committee to talk
      about the umbrella group we really want. Of course we will have to vote on
      who will be on this committee and how it will be set up and of course to do
      this properly there will most certainly be weeks of planning. So, I guess
      we had better get talking...

      Quite simply folks we are attempting to put direction to something that is
      really looking in the totally wrong direction in the first place...

      An umbrella organization should be put together to deal with any outside
      influences, not as an all encompassing police action on reenactors within
      our very small and intimate time period.

      Here is one of the issues we've looked at...

      SAFETY - plain and simple here. Follow the drill manual and everything
      should work the way it's suppose to. Which manual you say? Anyone which
      falls between 1799 and 1816 should most certainly suffice. There are most
      definitely going to be differences but they are insignificant and almost
      surely will not be noticeable. And besides that, units most certainly did
      adopt what they thought best for themselves and discarded the rest (Jesse's
      unit uses Moore's 1800, The Royal Newf Lights use Campbell's 1811). This is
      not to say that they completely trashed the "active manual of the day" but
      the British Army was fluid in its practical application of world
      domination. This is why they were the best. A rough and ready attitude to
      tactics as suggested by Paddy Griffith, "Forward Into Battle".

      Outside of the drill manual though, individual unit safety should be left
      to the unit. As long as a unit is playing safe no one has any right to
      dictate to this unit how it should conduct itself. Example... my unit will
      continue to use paper down the barrel until it can be PROVEN that this is
      unsafe. We have found it to be safer; have done tests that suggest so and
      have members who are certified to run military ballistic firing range
      tests. I have also had no convincing arguements presented to the contrary
      on this topic and personal opinions don't count. I have my opinions, others
      have theirs but until opinions are supported by hard factual evidence I'm
      just going to smile and stare blankly while you rant...

      Jesse said... 3. It should be a simple "thing" that sets out basic
      recommendations and establishes a "Line of help"
      not a "set of demands"

      And this quite frankly should be the credo of this umbrella group.

      Reenactment had been moving along fine, was a fun hobby with no stress,
      reasonably safe (considering we are shooting at one another) etc. etc.
      until the gun laws had to be dealt with. The first umbrella group was used
      to effectively deal with this but in the process began to assemble a novel
      of somewhat draconian safety rules and because of an insufficient self
      promotional campaign became its own worst enemy. Look around folks, entire
      units have left this time period in the last few years because of
      overzealous attitudes like this.

      This hobby has a certain element of danger to it and sooner or later an
      accident is going to happen. You can have a list of safety rules 200 pages
      thick and it's not going to prevent it. Everyone has constantly refered to
      the new comers and inexperienced soldiers being the problem but an
      experienced reenactor could just as easily make a mistake. It has happened
      (right Jesse, and will happen again). The umbrella group should be
      assembled to deal with outside pressures when something does happen. In
      otherwords be prepared to show that we have a rough GUIDELINE of safety
      EXPECTATIONS, present ourselves as a united front and show that we are a
      somewhat professional and reasonably well trained organization that is
      engaged in an educational program with some dangerous elements in it. Every
      other organization has its accidents and these are dealt with effectively
      by these organization's media representatives.

      People in reenactment are generally knowledgable about what they do and how
      to conduct themselves and don't need to be lead around by the hand. It's
      people outside the hobby that are ignorant of what we do. If there are
      problems within our small society they are usually dealt with with a
      certain amount of aggressive expedience and are either humbled or disappear
      altogether, as example I will site the Frederico incident. Enough people
      know what I am refering to without any need for embellishment.

      Jim Burrill is absolutely right... We need to start the ball rolling. We
      are getting no where by shooting opinions back and forth (although it was a
      good place to start). When I have more time I'll insert my feelings into
      his recommended categories.




      Cpl. Sean Hirst
      Royal Newfoundland Reg't, Lt. Coy
      *********************************
      945-0591
    • Sean
      Hey! How about since nobody can decide if there is or is not any umbrella organization in place already for either the US or Brit forces let s say that it is
      Message 2 of 16 , May 27, 1999
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        Hey! How about since nobody can decide if there is or is not any umbrella
        organization in place already for either the US or Brit forces let's say
        that it is open to any and all.

        This may require a bit more work as there is going to have to be
        representation from both sides but this can only serve to keep people
        happy. Quite simply if you want to join the group that will be set upo then
        fine... if don't want to join then just as fine again. Any who join aren't
        being taken into some sort of secret club or cult and those who don't join
        aren't lokked upon as some sort of defiant splitter group.

        By the way Listowner (I'm assuming Jim) I can't figure out how to cast my
        vote in private so I'm voting for all to see...

        I choose the "let's make a group and see what happens" option.
        (Don't be so shocked Tim) :-)

        I very much want this hobby to become better. I just want to make sure
        there are no fun police to dictating how I enjoy myself.


        Sean Hirst
        Chosen Man - Royal Newfoundland Reg't, Lt. Coy
        Private - Glengarry Light Infantry
        *********************************
        945-0591
      • Paul W. Schulz
        Sean, You are mistaken sir, as it has been stated before such an organization does exist for the US Regulars and Volunteers. This has been stated and that s
        Message 3 of 16 , May 27, 1999
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          Sean,
          You are mistaken sir, as it has been stated before such an organization
          does exist for the US Regulars and Volunteers. This has been stated and
          that's why there is limited interest in a new one. We're doing just fine and
          seem to be getting on okay.
          Paul
          4th USI
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Sean <shirst@...>
          To: <WarOf1812@onelist.com>
          Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 10:56 AM
          Subject: [WarOf1812] Umbrella Groups


          > From: Sean <shirst@...>
          >
          > Hey! How about since nobody can decide if there is or is not any umbrella
          > organization in place already for either the US or Brit forces let's say
          > that it is open to any and all.
          >
          > This may require a bit more work as there is going to have to be
          > representation from both sides but this can only serve to keep people
          > happy. Quite simply if you want to join the group that will be set upo
          then
          > fine... if don't want to join then just as fine again. Any who join aren't
          > being taken into some sort of secret club or cult and those who don't join
          > aren't lokked upon as some sort of defiant splitter group.
          >
          > By the way Listowner (I'm assuming Jim) I can't figure out how to cast my
          > vote in private so I'm voting for all to see...
          >
          > I choose the "let's make a group and see what happens" option.
          > (Don't be so shocked Tim) :-)
          >
          > I very much want this hobby to become better. I just want to make sure
          > there are no fun police to dictating how I enjoy myself.
          >
          >
          > Sean Hirst
          > Chosen Man - Royal Newfoundland Reg't, Lt. Coy
          > Private - Glengarry Light Infantry
          > *********************************
          > 945-0591
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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          > http://www.onelist.com
          > Try ONElist's Shared Calendar to organize events, meetings and more!
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
          square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
          square miles...
        • R. Feltoe
          Dear All, For several weeks I have read the gamut of opinions on an Umbrella organisation and said nothing. I had hoped to keep out of the quagmire this
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 2, 1999
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            Dear All,
            For several weeks I have read the gamut of opinions on an Umbrella
            organisation and said nothing. I had hoped to keep out of the quagmire this
            subject has become. But certain people have asked me "What's happened to
            BNALHA? is it still going or What?" To this I had no answer and so, as the
            one originaly put in the position of being Co-ordinator for that body, I
            started to write down my recollections of the events of the last few years.
            I then compared them to what is being discussed today and attempted to
            assess whether the formula of that organisation could possibly assist in the
            need many people agree is required today for the safeguarding of the Living
            History hobby for 1812 . As a result, I came up with the attached document.
            It contains my memories of how things began (for those who are not aware of
            that sequence of events) and how I think there may be a way out of the
            current quagmire if we all look out for each other, instead of taking aim at
            each other.
            Regards Richard Feltoe

            .
          • lee caripidis
            A question from a relative newbie here; What if, on the occasion of an unsafe and unregenerate unit and unwilling site administration, all the rest of the
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 25, 2001
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              A question from a relative "newbie" here;
              What if, on the occasion of an unsafe and unregenerate unit and
              unwilling site administration, all the rest of the units simply remain in
              camp? I know that I certainly won't blithly march into the face of an
              unsafe situation simply because the site folks are reluctant to do
              anything about it. I should think that this action would be sufficient
              to motivate the reluctant site administration to do their duty.

              LeeCaripidis.
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

              On Sat, 31 Mar 2001 00:33:08 -0000 chimera1@... writes:
              > Bob, I appreciate what you say, but you mention experience in the
              > armed forces and the Boy Scouts, where lines of authority are
              > clearly
              > delineated. But this is not the case in our movement, where
              > basically no one seems to be ready to accept anyone else's
              > authority.
              >
              > Yes, most organised units might accept a governing body - no
              > problem - it can be worked out. The problem with safety seems to
              >
              > exist with non-affiliated individuals/units, walk-ons, native re-
              > enactors and buckskinners. How to approach and motivate them? No
              > one, understandably wants to take on the enforcement role, which is
              >
              > why I am suggesting an alternative. I am talking about safety only
              > -
              > authenticity is something else, from which I will defer.
              >
              > I am glad Spring is arriving for you, but it is not quite here yet
              > for me. Soon, I fervently hope. And a successful campaign season
              > for everyone. Doug
              >
              >
              > --- In WarOf1812@y..., dancingbobd@w... wrote:
              > > Hi Doug, Larry and all,
              > >
              > > Sending suggestions to registered participants does not
              > necessarily
              > lead
              > > to the safe behavior on the field. Suggestion by nature lead the
              > > recipient to conclude that there is some latitude in expected
              > behavior.
              > >
              > > Ultimately, it will still come down to the Officers and NCO's on
              > the
              > > field to make sure that new participants follow safe practice.
              > This
              > > needs to happen immediately in most cases. No room for
              > suggesting.
              > > While i have not been a filed commander in the 1812 arena, I was
              > an
              > > officer in the U.S. Army & Reserve for 9 years and was involved
              > live
              > > fire training on active duty. I would not want to be dependant on
              >
              > only
              > > suggestions in any of these situations. I also spent 8 years
              > working
              > > with Boy Scouts and keeping activities safe was a primary concern
              >
              > there
              > > too. Rules are a necessary part of life.
              > >
              > > I know that politics can go awry in organizations which have some
              > > control over leisure activities such as ours, but that is not a
              > > necessary result of setting rules to police behaviour on any one
              > who
              > > wants to participate in our battle recreations.
              > >
              > > Thank goodness that Spring is finally arriving here in the Heart
              > of
              > > America (Kansas City, Missouri for those of you in the vast north
              > or
              > > over seas).
              > >
              > > Regards,
              > >
              > > Bob
              >
              >
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              > hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the
              > fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
              >
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              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
            • Steve Hartwick
              Good Evening List: I have been watching this topic with some interest and would offer a couple of thoughts on the topic. 1) There is/was a safety umbrella
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 28, 2001
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                Good Evening List:

                I have been watching this topic with some interest and would offer a couple of thoughts on the topic.

                1) There is/was a safety umbrella group formed some years ago. The British North American Living History Association. it was formed to deal with safety in 1812 and to deal with some dangerous firearms legislation that was about to come about in Canada. It was chaired most ably by Richard Felto. It is because of the work of this organization and particularly of Richard that we don't have to register our flint lock muskets and the Americans don't have to pay a $50.00 fee on entering the country with theirs. Thank you again Richard for that work.

                Where we fell down was on the safety side of the house. We couldn't come up with a punishment/enforcement section to lend the paper some weight. Most of the groups in Southwestern Ontario participated in this effort at some level or other. While this organization never was officially wound down it suffered a fatal blow at an event where there was miscommunication over who held what role and with what power.

                2) 1st Battalion British North American Regiment (1BNAR) is a collection of units who have chosen to work together to improve our impression to the public by doing a common drill and share information on proper kit and turn out. It is run off the field by a council of Unit Commanders. One voice/vote per unit. On the field or during a demonstration the Battalion is run in as proper a military format as we can get. ie The CO gives orders and they are followed. Debate of tactics is for over drinks in the mess.

                We achieve safety through proper drill and supervision. All units are welcome to join/leave as they chose. A unit that belongs may be asked to improve a glaring problem and refusal to correct a problem that is serious can be grounds for an invitation to withdraw.

                This was also used as one of the vehicles used to get troops to Waterloo. Which didn't happen :( but there is always 2005.

                3) 1BNAR is a member of the NABB which is affiliated with the NA in Great Britain. Some units of 1BNAR are also separate members of the NABB to give them a direct voice in that organization.

                4) I support the idea of an umbrella organization which can set reasonable safety rules with ramifications for offenders. I also believe that should include accreditation for NCOs and Officers of all groups on the field.

                5) Regardless of whether or not there is an umbrella organization or not safety is everyone's job. As a site host I have ejected a member of the press first off the battle field and then right out of the site. And as British Field Commander I have stopped at least two tactical/re-enactments when safety was at risk in my opinion. One of those was the evening battle as Stoney Creek.

                6) While I am longer of wind my friend Jim is/was much more eloquent about why we should have an umbrella organization. I support the idea and don't care who is in charge of it. I'll answer comments here, at steve.hartwick@... or at any event. Like say Longwoods on the first weekend of May at Longwoods Conservation Area on Hwy 2 near Delaware Ont. ( Oh, was that a shameless plug? )

                Steve Hartwick Royal Scots/1BNAR


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • chimera1@sympatico.ca
                Sounds like there already is an existing widely accepted body of safety rules/guidelines (see below). There are people who obviously don t like rules, and
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 30, 2001
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                  Sounds like there already is an existing widely accepted body of
                  safety rules/guidelines (see below).

                  There are people who obviously don't like rules, and probably resist
                  accepting them from a group that is unknown to them.

                  As a start, why not issue them as guidelines (not rules) at the time
                  of registration at sites, and not under the name of some perhaps
                  unknown (to registrants) organization. They should not have to be
                  signed for (smacks of officialdom).

                  Now I haven't seen these rules, but I trust they are basic, simple,
                  direct, common sense, not nit-picky and can be shown on one page in
                  bold type to encourage actual reading. (If I recall correctly I have
                  seen a set of rules at one site - 2 pages of them in closely spaced
                  type - even I didn't read them through.)

                  Additionally they could be mailed as suggestions without threats to
                  offending units/individuals. Addresses obviously available from the
                  registration lists at sites.

                  Previous attempts to enhance safety seem to have fallen down on "WHO
                  will enforce the rules" and "HOW do we enforce the rules" (and maybe
                  the rules are too complicated). Perhaps this softer approach may
                  have some merit?

                  Doug


                  --- In WarOf1812@y..., "Steve Hartwick" <steve.hartwick@h...> wrote:
                  >
                  > 1) There is/was a safety umbrella group formed some years ago. The
                  British North American Living History Association. it was formed to
                  deal with safety in 1812 ---.
                  >
                  > Where we fell down was on the safety side of the house. We couldn't
                  come up with a punishment/enforcement section to lend the paper some
                  weight. Most of the groups in Southwestern Ontario participated in
                  this effort at some level or other. While this organization never was
                  officially wound down ----.
                  >
                • dancingbobd@webtv.net
                  Hi Doug, Larry and all, Sending suggestions to registered participants does not necessarily lead to the safe behavior on the field. Suggestion by nature lead
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 30, 2001
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                    Hi Doug, Larry and all,

                    Sending suggestions to registered participants does not necessarily lead
                    to the safe behavior on the field. Suggestion by nature lead the
                    recipient to conclude that there is some latitude in expected behavior.

                    Ultimately, it will still come down to the Officers and NCO's on the
                    field to make sure that new participants follow safe practice. This
                    needs to happen immediately in most cases. No room for suggesting.
                    While i have not been a filed commander in the 1812 arena, I was an
                    officer in the U.S. Army & Reserve for 9 years and was involved live
                    fire training on active duty. I would not want to be dependant on only
                    suggestions in any of these situations. I also spent 8 years working
                    with Boy Scouts and keeping activities safe was a primary concern there
                    too. Rules are a necessary part of life.

                    I know that politics can go awry in organizations which have some
                    control over leisure activities such as ours, but that is not a
                    necessary result of setting rules to police behaviour on any one who
                    wants to participate in our battle recreations.

                    Thank goodness that Spring is finally arriving here in the Heart of
                    America (Kansas City, Missouri for those of you in the vast north or
                    over seas).

                    Regards,

                    Bob
                  • chimera1@sympatico.ca
                    Bob, I appreciate what you say, but you mention experience in the armed forces and the Boy Scouts, where lines of authority are clearly delineated. But this
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 30, 2001
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                      Bob, I appreciate what you say, but you mention experience in the
                      armed forces and the Boy Scouts, where lines of authority are clearly
                      delineated. But this is not the case in our movement, where
                      basically no one seems to be ready to accept anyone else's authority.

                      Yes, most organised units might accept a governing body - no
                      problem - it can be worked out. The problem with safety seems to
                      exist with non-affiliated individuals/units, walk-ons, native re-
                      enactors and buckskinners. How to approach and motivate them? No
                      one, understandably wants to take on the enforcement role, which is
                      why I am suggesting an alternative. I am talking about safety only -
                      authenticity is something else, from which I will defer.

                      I am glad Spring is arriving for you, but it is not quite here yet
                      for me. Soon, I fervently hope. And a successful campaign season
                      for everyone. Doug


                      --- In WarOf1812@y..., dancingbobd@w... wrote:
                      > Hi Doug, Larry and all,
                      >
                      > Sending suggestions to registered participants does not necessarily
                      lead
                      > to the safe behavior on the field. Suggestion by nature lead the
                      > recipient to conclude that there is some latitude in expected
                      behavior.
                      >
                      > Ultimately, it will still come down to the Officers and NCO's on the
                      > field to make sure that new participants follow safe practice. This
                      > needs to happen immediately in most cases. No room for suggesting.
                      > While i have not been a filed commander in the 1812 arena, I was an
                      > officer in the U.S. Army & Reserve for 9 years and was involved live
                      > fire training on active duty. I would not want to be dependant on
                      only
                      > suggestions in any of these situations. I also spent 8 years
                      working
                      > with Boy Scouts and keeping activities safe was a primary concern
                      there
                      > too. Rules are a necessary part of life.
                      >
                      > I know that politics can go awry in organizations which have some
                      > control over leisure activities such as ours, but that is not a
                      > necessary result of setting rules to police behaviour on any one who
                      > wants to participate in our battle recreations.
                      >
                      > Thank goodness that Spring is finally arriving here in the Heart of
                      > America (Kansas City, Missouri for those of you in the vast north or
                      > over seas).
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > Bob
                    • ebclemson@webtv.net
                      Well, its time to wade in. It is not the Rules, guidelines, regulations, or missions statements........its the gonads to ENFORCE them.
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 1, 2001
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                        Well, its time to wade in. It is not the Rules, guidelines, regulations, or missions statements........its the gonads to ENFORCE them. Only one way this happens. The site designates an individual, or unit or an umbrella (organization of several units) to be in charge. The individual or unit in turn runs the event like an Military encampment. Run it by the book. Many of you will not like to hear this, but there already are umbrella groups to some degree. There already are individual units that work together on the field and in camp. There may not be "formal' rules, meetings, Presidents and Secretaries but the goal is the same. Many site organizers DO put an unit or individual in charge. For example Mississinewa names an overall commander for the Americans and for the British. Many of the problems that have been discussed, can be eliminated simply by following the "Military Rules and regulations" for each respective Army. In turn, unit commanders must support the appointed commanders. By doing so, Safety and Authenticy will follow. With a respectable overall commander, and unit commanders respecting the position and following military rules and regulations, this in turn will create an atmosphere of Safety and a more authentic chain of command. The selection of overall commanders must not be a political choice, but must chosen for their abilities to command and gain the respect of "volunteer" soldiers. And it all comes down to who has the "stones" to enforce it? This list is full of talk, and many times we do not walk the talk. Dave Bennett, 1st U.S. & Missouri Rangers.
                      • Kevin Windsor
                        You are very right Dave! There is already with the Britsh Forces in Canada a quasi umbrella group on the field. At stoney creek a couple years ago when
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 1, 2001
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                          You are very right Dave! There is already with the Britsh Forces in Canada a "quasi" umbrella group on the field. At stoney creek a couple years ago when Steve stopped the battle everyone listened. If the people on the list now are balking at organised battalion staff why did they stop? Most had no idea what was happening. They could have said, "He's not my boss" but they listened. Is anyone also going to question RSM Lightfoot when he says "March!" There is control and I think it's time everyone woke up to that fact and join in. Or is that submit peacfully? DOH!!

                          ebclemson@... wrote:

                          > Many of you will not like to hear this, but there already are umbrella groups to some degree. There already are individual units that work together on the field and in camp. There may not be "formal' rules, meetings, Presidents and Secretaries but the goal is the same.
                        • Dave & Monica Bosse
                          Some one agree with me? Far out! Dave Bosse US 25th Reg. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 1, 2001
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                            Some one agree with me? Far out!

                            Dave Bosse
                            US 25th Reg.


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Cpl. Wattie
                            ... says March! I tried that once ... I ll show you the scars at Longwoods :) As for your other message: right on! Any umbrella group the tries to enforce
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 1, 2001
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                              > Is anyone also going to question RSM Lightfoot when he
                              says "March!"
                              I tried that once ... I'll show you the scars at Longwoods :)

                              As for your other message: right on! Any umbrella group the tries to
                              enforce "authenticity" is just not going to get off the ground, like
                              it or not.
                            • Dan
                              I like the idea of an umbrella group. Everytime I ve been to Mississinewa it rained & we all got wet. We could ve used an umbrella. And what about hot tea
                              Message 14 of 16 , Apr 2, 2001
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                                I like the idea of an umbrella group. Everytime I've
                                been to Mississinewa it rained & we all got wet. We
                                could've used an umbrella.
                                And what about hot tea groups too?

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                              • Chewie
                                even I am up for going to Canada , if there is a hot tea group . Chewie unit commander Dirty Half Hundred not a good looking bunch , but devilish steady ...
                                Message 15 of 16 , Apr 2, 2001
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                                  even I am up for going to Canada , if there is a hot tea group .

                                  Chewie
                                  unit commander
                                  Dirty Half Hundred
                                  " not a good looking bunch , but devilish steady"
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Dan
                                  To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 9:20 PM
                                  Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Umbrella Groups


                                  I like the idea of an umbrella group. Everytime I've
                                  been to Mississinewa it rained & we all got wet. We
                                  could've used an umbrella.
                                  And what about hot tea groups too?

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                                • HQ93rd@aol.com
                                  In a message dated 4/2/01 1:39:29 PM, musketballs@yahoo.com writes: And a buttered scone group! 93rd SHRoFLHU THE Thin
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Apr 2, 2001
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                                    In a message dated 4/2/01 1:39:29 PM, musketballs@... writes:

                                    << And what about hot tea groups too? >>

                                    And a buttered scone group!


                                    93rd SHRoFLHU
                                    THE Thin Red Line
                                    www.93rdhighlanders.com
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