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Re: [WarOf1812] Rank

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  • BritcomHMP@aol.com
    In a message dated 28/04/2006 20:10:24 Central Standard Time, mikedeajansen@yahoo.com writes: Just another one of those stupid questions that I should already
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 28, 2006
      In a message dated 28/04/2006 20:10:24 Central Standard Time,
      mikedeajansen@... writes:

      Just another one of those stupid questions that I should already know
      the answer to. Can anyone out there give me a complete rank list for
      the British Army during the War of 1812?


      In decending order
      Field Marshal
      General
      Lieutenant General
      Major General
      Brigadier General
      Colonel
      Major
      Captain
      Lieutenant
      Ensign (Cornet in the cavalry)
      Sergeant Major
      Colour Sergeant
      Sergeant
      Corporal
      La(u)nce Corporal (Chosen Man in the rifles)*
      Private

      Fifers and drummers ranked between privates and Lance Corporals*

      *Obviously there has been much discussion about this rank lately, I rather
      think it was an apointed rank rather than an official one. Part of the reason
      for this is that in my collection I have an 1829 book on pention regulations,
      its sample forms (featuring the famous Thomas Atkins) start with attestation
      forms for 1802 and follow the fictional Atkins through all his promotions and
      in one sample a promotion from Drummer to Corporal, breaking to Private and
      then a re-promotion to Corporal with no mention of Lance Corporal.

      Cheers
      Tim


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tom Fournier
      ... Hi Tim or others: Perhaps you can help me with this question. Where does Lieutenant Colonel fit in? For example, during the war Lt. Colonel Henry Proctor
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 29, 2006
        > the British Army during the War of 1812
        >
        >
        > In decending order
        > Field Marshal
        > General
        > Lieutenant General
        > Major General
        > Brigadier General
        > Colonel
        > Major


        Hi Tim or others:

        Perhaps you can help me with this question. Where does Lieutenant
        Colonel fit in? For example, during the war Lt. Colonel Henry
        Proctor had command of the 41st Regiment in Canada but Josiah
        Champagne was listed as Colonel. Both appear elsewhere in the army
        lists with ranks of General.

        It seems that some officers would have an army rank that was senior
        to their regimental rank. The rank of Colonel almost seems a
        honourary desigination.

        Is that a correct interpretation?

        Thanks!

        Tom Fournier
        41st Regiment
      • Kevin Windsor
        Tom are you talking about honourary Colonels? Regimental Colonels are General officers that have, for the most, retired. They hang around to give advice,
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 29, 2006
          Tom are you talking about honourary Colonels? Regimental Colonels are
          General officers that have, for the most, retired. They hang around to give
          advice, provide ceremonial functions and the like. There is also Colonels
          in Chief and their names usually begin with HRH, or other types of the
          Windsor House. (or Hanover for us)
          During the War of 1812 the Colonel of the 89th Regiment was the Earl of
          Lindsay who was a General dated 25 Sept 1803.

          Kevin Windsor
          89th Reg't



          -----Original Message-----

          Hi Tim or others:

          Perhaps you can help me with this question. Where does Lieutenant
          Colonel fit in? For example, during the war Lt. Colonel Henry
          Proctor had command of the 41st Regiment in Canada but Josiah
          Champagne was listed as Colonel. Both appear elsewhere in the army
          lists with ranks of General.

          It seems that some officers would have an army rank that was senior
          to their regimental rank. The rank of Colonel almost seems a
          honourary desigination.

          Is that a correct interpretation?

          Thanks!

          Tom Fournier
          41st Regiment
        • BritcomHMP@aol.com
          In a message dated 29/04/2006 05:45:41 Central Standard Time, tom4141fournier@yahoo.ca writes: Perhaps you can help me with this question. Where does
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 29, 2006
            In a message dated 29/04/2006 05:45:41 Central Standard Time,
            tom4141fournier@... writes:

            Perhaps you can help me with this question. Where does Lieutenant
            Colonel fit in? For example, during the war Lt. Colonel Henry
            Proctor had command of the 41st Regiment in Canada but Josiah
            Champagne was listed as Colonel. Both appear elsewhere in the army
            lists with ranks of General.





            Sorry Tom, I did that WAY too late last night. Lt. Colonel fits between
            Major and Colonel. Mea Maxima Culpa.

            Tim


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • BritcomHMP@aol.com
            In a message dated 29/04/2006 08:06:56 Central Standard Time, kevin.windsor@sympatico.ca writes: Tom are you talking about honourary Colonels? Regimental
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 29, 2006
              In a message dated 29/04/2006 08:06:56 Central Standard Time,
              kevin.windsor@... writes:

              Tom are you talking about honourary Colonels? Regimental Colonels are
              General officers that have, for the most, retired. They hang around to give
              advice, provide ceremonial functions and the like.

              Actualy there was another reason for a general to keep his regimental rank
              if he was not wealthy. Generals were only paid when employed on service,
              Colonels wewre paid all the time. This is why most Colonels were General officers
              who did not actualy serve with the regiment leaving the day to day running to
              the Lt. Colonel.

              There is also Colonels
              in Chief and their names usually begin with HRH, or other types of the
              Windsor House. (or Hanover for us)


              Actualy not all Colonels in Chief are Royals of the ruling house, some are
              honoured soldiers (Wellington 33rd Foot, Cardigan 11th Hussars) and some were
              foreign royals (Nicholas II Scots Grays)

              Tim


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tom Fournier
              ... Colonels are General officers that have, for the most, retired. They hang around to give advice, provide ceremonial functions and the like. ...
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 29, 2006
                > kevin.windsor@... writes:
                >
                > Tom are you talking about honourary Colonels? Regimental
                Colonels are General officers that have, for the most, retired.
                They hang around to give advice, provide ceremonial functions and
                the like.
                >
                Tim Pickles ..>writes:

                > Actualy there was another reason for a general to keep his
                regimental rank if he was not wealthy. Generals were only paid when
                employed on service, Colonels wewre paid all the time. This is why
                most Colonels were General officers who did not actualy serve with
                the regiment leaving the day to day running to the Lt. Colonel.
                >

                ********************************

                Kevin and Tim

                That helps.

                My curiosity leads me to another question.

                I have some digital copies of the Army List. I just quickly pulled
                the March 1811 copy.

                It seems to me that there is a variation between an officer's army
                rank and their rank within their regiment. I noticed this
                throughout the list for practically every regiment but I will use
                the 41st as a example:

                Colonel

                Josiah Champagne, l.g.

                Lt. Colonels

                Henry Proctor, c.

                Majors

                Jasper Grant, l.c.

                Captains

                H. McKenzie, m.
                R.O. Friend, m

                The Army List shows each regiment with a listing of its officers but
                it also has at the front of the volume, lists by seniority within
                ranks.

                In these, Champagne is with the Lt. Generals, Proctor is with the
                Colonels, etc.

                So I guess my question is, why the variation between the army ranks
                and the regimental ranks?

                Thanks so much for the help!

                Tom Fournier
                41st Regiment
              • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                In a message dated 29/04/2006 13:23:36 Central Standard Time, tom4141fournier@yahoo.ca writes: So I guess my question is, why the variation between the army
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 29, 2006
                  In a message dated 29/04/2006 13:23:36 Central Standard Time,
                  tom4141fournier@... writes:


                  So I guess my question is, why the variation between the army ranks
                  and the regimental ranks?






                  This is where things to become a bit complicated. The British purchase
                  system was basicaly a continuation of the medieval idea that a knight or lord
                  would hire and equip retainers for service under the crown and then lead these
                  men in the kings service. The government merely took over the job of hireing and
                  equiping the men but then the officers could pay a certain amout to, in
                  efect, buy these men from the government or rather defray costs from the public
                  purse in order to lead these men in battle for the king.
                  Now the army could also apoint an officer to a rank at which they think he
                  is fitted to serve which is above that of his regimental rank (the one he is
                  wealthy enough to buy) as a result it was posible to have have an officer with
                  a higher army rank than his regimental rank. To confuse things even further
                  the officer always wore the higher rank on his eoauletes and was refered to by
                  his higher rank.
                  Another book in my posession is inscribed as belonging to Brooks Lawrence
                  Lt. Col 13th Light Dragoons 1812. I looked him up and found that this was his
                  army rank, within the regiment he was a Captain!

                  Cheers

                  Tim


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Tom Fournier
                  ... Yikes! And then add to this brevet ranks and things get even more complicated! Thanks for the help. Tom Fournier 41st Regiment
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 29, 2006
                    --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, BritcomHMP@... wrote:


                    >
                    > This is where things to become a bit complicated.


                    Yikes!

                    And then add to this brevet ranks and things get even more complicated!

                    Thanks for the help.

                    Tom Fournier
                    41st Regiment
                  • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                    In a message dated 29/04/2006 14:31:47 Central Standard Time, tom4141fournier@yahoo.ca writes: And then add to this brevet ranks and things get even more
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 29, 2006
                      In a message dated 29/04/2006 14:31:47 Central Standard Time,
                      tom4141fournier@... writes:


                      And then add to this brevet ranks and things get even more complicated!






                      Not to mention local ranks and honorary ranks and, of course, the Civil
                      Department which often had military personell in it in positions which outranked
                      both their regimental and army counterparts.
                      Then of course Wellington could get very creative if he wanted to use
                      someone in a superior position. When the brilliant artilleryman Alexander Dixon
                      went to the peninsula he was a Captain and promotion in the RHA was strictly on
                      seniority. Sir Arthur (as he was then) had Dixon removed from British service
                      and seconded to the Portugese where he was quickly promoted to General and
                      then transfered back as chief of artillery!!


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • LCpl_rm
                      Tim, You forgot Guards ranks! Ed Seufert, Cpl 1812 Royal Marines ... From: BritcomHMP@aol.com To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 3:40
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 29, 2006
                        Tim,

                        You forgot Guards ranks!

                        Ed Seufert, Cpl
                        1812 Royal Marines
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: BritcomHMP@...
                        To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 3:40 PM
                        Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Re: Rank



                        In a message dated 29/04/2006 14:31:47 Central Standard Time,
                        tom4141fournier@... writes:


                        And then add to this brevet ranks and things get even more complicated!






                        Not to mention local ranks and honorary ranks and, of course, the Civil
                        Department which often had military personell in it in positions which outranked
                        both their regimental and army counterparts.
                        Then of course Wellington could get very creative if he wanted to use
                        someone in a superior position. When the brilliant artilleryman Alexander Dixon
                        went to the peninsula he was a Captain and promotion in the RHA was strictly on
                        seniority. Sir Arthur (as he was then) had Dixon removed from British service
                        and seconded to the Portugese where he was quickly promoted to General and
                        then transfered back as chief of artillery!!


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                        In a message dated 29/04/2006 16:30:57 Central Standard Time, LCpl_RM@comcast.net writes: Tim, You forgot Guards ranks!
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 29, 2006
                          In a message dated 29/04/2006 16:30:57 Central Standard Time,
                          LCpl_RM@... writes:

                          Tim,

                          You forgot Guards ranks!



                          AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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