Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [WarOf1812] Re: Historical Authenticity?

Expand Messages
  • dancingbobd@webtv.net
    Tim, My vote is for authentic! Bob US Engineer Surgeon 14 LD
    Message 1 of 28 , Apr 2, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Tim,

      My vote is for authentic!

      Bob
      US Engineer
      Surgeon 14 LD
    • HQ93rd@aol.com
      ... Merriam Webster: Main Entry: au·then·tic Pronunciation: &- then-tik, o- Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English autentik, from Middle French
      Message 2 of 28 , Apr 2, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        In a message dated 2/04/2006 9:05:41 PM, dancingbobd@... writes:
        > Tim, 
        > My vote is for authentic!
        > Bob
        > US Engineer
        > Surgeon 14 LD
        >
        Merriam Webster:
        Main Entry: au·then·tic
        Pronunciation: &-'then-tik, o-
        Function: adjective
        Etymology: Middle English autentik, from Middle French autentique, from Late
        Latin authenticus, from Greek authentikos, from authentEs perpetrator, master,
        from aut- + -hentEs (akin to Greek anyein to accomplish, Sanskrit sanoti he
        gains)
        Date: 14th century
        1 : obsolete : AUTHORITATIVE
        2 a : worthy of acceptance or belief as conforming to or based on fact <
        paints an authentic picture of our society> b : conforming to an original so as to
        reproduce essential features <an authentic reproduction of a colonial
        farmhouse> c : made or done the same way as an original <authentic Mexican fare>
        3 : not false or imitation : REAL, ACTUAL <based on authentic documents> <an
        authentic cockney accent>
        4 a : of a church mode : ranging upward from the keynote — compare PLAGAL 1 b
        : of a cadence : progressing from the dominant chord to the tonic — compare
        PLAGAL 2
        5 : true to one's own personality, spirit, or character
        - au·then·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb
        - au·then·tic·i·ty /"o-"then-'ti-s&-tE, -th&n-/ noun
        synonyms AUTHENTIC, GENUINE, BONA FIDE mean being actually and exactly what
        is claimed. AUTHENTIC implies being fully trustworthy as according with fact <
        an authentic account of the perilous journey>; it can also stress painstaking
        or faithful imitation of an original <an authentic reproduction> <authentic
        Vietnamese cuisine>. GENUINE implies actual character not counterfeited,
        imitated, or adulterated <genuine piety> <genuine maple syrup>; it also connotes
        definite origin from a source <a genuine Mark Twain autograph>. BONA FIDE implies
        good faith and sincerity of intention <a bona fide offer for the stock>.

        So, once again, having an item -- especially as Tim has pointed out -- made
        recently by the same company still in existence from 200 years ago, IS
        authentic, no matter when it was made...so to speak, QED...

        And again, following the flawed vein of logic otherwise...even if one was
        wearing an extant uniform from 200 years ago, unless oneself IS over 200 years
        old personally, one would still not be "authentic".
        Thus ends the B.S .rhetoric. (In other words, anything else IS B.S.)

        B ("you look a lot like Adolf Hitler" thus I can win any argument) J
        93rd SHRoFLHU
        THE Thin Red Line
        www.93rdhighlanders.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • mccombs98
        They would be reproduction, but I can t think of a better one, considering how they were made. One could argue that another issue of authentic hat cords have
        Message 3 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          They would be reproduction, but I can't think of a better one,
          considering how they were made. One could argue that another issue of
          "authentic" hat cords have been produced by this orignal manufacturer.
          However, I had conceeded that on our discussion lists that "authentic"
          is not synonmous with "original", so I won't beat this dead horse:)
          Cheers
          Murray



          BritcomHMP@... wrote:
          >
          >
          > In a message dated 02/04/2006 21:07:09 Central Standard Time,
          > macomb@... writes:
          >
          > Sorry, but theirs would still be authentic, ie. Orignal manufacture for
          > their day, even if made in their yesterday (or morning for that
          > matter:)
          >
          >
          >
          > OK Murray, how about this, about 10 years ago I had some British officers
          > shako cords made up. They were done by M. Hand & Co of London, the gold and
          > crimson square braid was made up on a machine constructed about 1800 (the
          > company had been in buisness in one form or another since the restoration of
          > Charles II) and they were constructed by hand by Derek Hand the last male decendant
          > of the founder to work in the buisness. If you look at the shakos worn by
          > Peter Twist, Larry Stutt and myself, and several other British officers you can
          > examine them for yourself. So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
          > are they authentic or reproduction?
          >
          > Cheers
          >
          > Tim
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • mccombs98
          Sorry, but they ARE period , but reproduction and not authentic. Murray PS I like your analogy though:)
          Message 4 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Sorry, but they ARE "period", but reproduction and not authentic.
            Murray
            PS I like your analogy though:)


            "Phil Graf" <phil_graf@...> wrote:
            >
            > If you stub your toe on an original bayonet sticking out of a battleground, should your name be added to the casualty lists of that battle?
            >
            > Phil
            > So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
            > are they authentic or reproduction?
            >
            > Cheers
            >
            > Tim
          • Lalozon
            From: ... I had some British officers shako cords made up. They were done by M. Hand & Co of London, and... the last male decendant of
            Message 5 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              From: <BritcomHMP@...>

              "... I had some British officers shako cords made up. They were done by M.
              Hand & Co of London, and... the last male decendant of the founder to work
              in the buisness .... So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
              are they authentic or reproduction? "




              Yur Grace

              May I answer your question, with a question? .

              In this hobby should we dwell on the authenticity of an item when the rest
              of our kit is not authentic?

              Yhs.,
              L2
              Take a moment to close your tent if it's contents are not authentic.
            • md5_yager
              This thread is an authentic reproduction of very similar threads seen in woodworking (or antiques, or ... pick whatever involves stuff that is older than you
              Message 6 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                This thread is an authentic reproduction of very similar threads seen
                in woodworking (or antiques, or ... pick whatever involves 'stuff'
                that is older than you are).

                An 'original' piece from the period can certainly be faked. Sort of
                what we are all doing? BTW, is the USS Constitution original -- let's
                sucker those Naval types into this discussion. I've heard it said
                there's not an 'original' timber left in her!? So is she still a
                reproduction after a couple centuries ?

                There are reproductions of furniture, which look similar to
                originals, but are fabricated with modern methods and using plywood
                in some less visible places. So does this mean my coatee can never
                be 'authentic', if the hidden seams were sewn on a machine? This
                naturally begs the question, would they have used a sewing machine if
                they had one? Same argument about using plywood -- would the Shakers
                have used it if they'd had it? Of course, but does not mean my piece
                is not a authentic reproduction. Like most things in life -- depends
                on whose paying, and what they're asking for.

                And obviously we have a problem locating 200-year old timber (except
                maybe in the USS Constitution? :-) So if we do locate 200 year-old
                timber but use modern machines, modern manufactured finish and
                authentic 'reproduction' hardware, then is our furniture piece
                authentic, or a reproduction, or a 'authentic reproduction'.

                Another in this thread had offered dictionary definitions -- but
                these aren't always that useful in the real world. Actually, in point
                of fact, museums often decide these matters -- or whomever is paying
                the bill. So it's a sliding scale -- do we use 200 year old wood (not
                likely!); are we using hardware made in the period (or certain to
                have been made of same material in same manner); are we using the
                same tools used 200 years ago; are the tools over 200 years old (come
                on!); are we using the exact same methods ... are we working in a 200
                year old shop without modern lights and air conditioning ? ... Maybe
                only in colonial Williamsburg (or fill in your blank ____
                favorite 'original' but "restored" place). But my "ad nauseum, ad
                absurdum" (help me, Latin scholars) digression into similar arguments
                elsewhere shows that "authentic" and reproduction is not so easily
                defined by looking it up in Webster or Wikipedia or whatever.

                Quick! Someone shoot this battered horse, and put it out of its
                misery! D*a!m&%n!!!, stepped on that original bayonet again. Do I not
                also bleed ?

                Dave









                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "mccombs98" <macomb@...> wrote:
                >
                > Sorry, but they ARE "period", but reproduction and not authentic.
                > Murray
                > PS I like your analogy though:)
                >
                >
                > "Phil Graf" <phil_graf@> wrote:
                > >
                > > If you stub your toe on an original bayonet sticking out of a
                battleground, should your name be added to the casualty lists of that
                battle?
                > >
                > > Phil
                > > So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
                > > are they authentic or reproduction?
                > >
                > > Cheers
                > >
                > > Tim
                >
              • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                ... Absolutely not, but the question leads on to other issues in the authenticity discussion. I had these made up as an experiment because it was quite
                Message 7 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  In a message dated 4/3/06 8:48:04 AM, lalozon@... writes:


                  > In this hobby should we dwell on the authenticity of an item when the rest
                  > of our kit is not authentic?
                  >

                  Absolutely not, but the question leads on to other issues in the authenticity
                  discussion. I had these made up as an experiment because it was quite
                  imposible at the time to make up ANY correct British officers cords for the 1812
                  shako as the gold and crimson square braid was not available. I used some of my
                  'brownie points' with Derek to make me up 10 sets so that I could offer to
                  re-enactor officers an item that was not available anywhere else and that every one
                  of them needed. The interesting thing was that the reaction fell into two
                  distinct camps viz 'Wow these are great I want a set' (one fellow wanted 2 sets),
                  and '$175 ? That's way too expensive!'
                  I should point out that in the interveing years Derek Hand has died and the
                  buisness has been sold out of the family with the new owners unable to work out
                  how the operate the older machines so those who have them have a unique item.
                  The cords can never be produced in that manner again.

                  My point is that it is posible to produce every item of kit authenticly but
                  not everyone wants to, either its too expensive to do it right or they just
                  want the fun of re-inventing the wheel. The only way to have 'uniform' uniforms
                  is for manufactures to conform to the corect patterns with correct materials as
                  was done at the time, but while people want to make up their own kit with end
                  runs of material found at the local store overall authenticity is a deam.

                  In the end I think we must concentrate on safety and authenticity in drill
                  and camping (our public persona) and set minimum standards of dress for everyone
                  to meet, but we will always have those who want every button and stitch
                  perfect and those who are happy with being (dare I say it) fairly accurate,
                  representing British!

                  Cheers

                  Tim



                  Timothy Pickles



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Lalozon
                  From: ... My point is that it is possible to produce every item of kit authentically ... The only way to have uniform uniforms is for
                  Message 8 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    From: <BritcomHMP@...>

                    "... My point is that it is possible to produce every item of kit
                    authentically ... The only way to have 'uniform' uniforms is for
                    manufactures to conform to the correct patterns with correct materials as
                    was done at the time..."







                    Yur Grace

                    Said as per a Leader on Men

                    I was going to email you privately but I feel that this Yahoo Group should
                    read this as some want to do it correctly.



                    While visiting a mutual friend, I offered the question:

                    " Why should some of us care that we have hand stitched trousers made from
                    the correct material and pattern, hand made vests, etc. . when others wear
                    black running shoes?"



                    The answer I was given by him and other re-enactors who do it correctly was,



                    " We do it for ourselves, we know what is correct and wrong"





                    While doing a Revolutionary War event I was asked why I tote a plastic
                    cooler and beer that has to be opened with a modern bottle opener?"

                    He told me if I brought a bottle of red wine I didn't need the cooler or
                    bottle opener and I could find a period cork screw.

                    He also asked, " Why take a three mile detour for a one mile walk!?



                    Those who want to do it, will . those who don't, will find a million excuses
                    not to



                    Yrs.,

                    L2



                    =========
                  • Kevin Windsor
                    Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have been armed with automatic weapons if they had them. Or I would get into a transporter to get to
                    Message 9 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have been armed with
                      automatic weapons if they had them. Or I would get into a transporter to
                      get to events, if I had one.

                      They didn't! I don't! End of story.

                      -----Original Message-----

                      This naturally begs the question, would they have used a sewing machine if
                      they had one?
                    • md5_yager
                      Kevin, The sewing machine can be used to make a authentic reproduction coatee -- in the same way that modern steel and automated CNC milling machines are used
                      Message 10 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Kevin,
                        The sewing machine can be used to make a authentic reproduction
                        coatee -- in the same way that modern steel and automated CNC milling
                        machines are used to make the lock, stock and barrel of the musket we
                        take onto the field. These same machines can also fashion the parts of
                        the automatic weapons you mention. The coatee made on the sewing
                        machine is no less authentic than the musket made in modern machine
                        shops. OK, OK, you Indian musket owners have a claim!

                        Now about that "transporter", it's called a "re-enactment". End of
                        Story.

                        Dave

                        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Windsor" <kevin.windsor@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have been armed
                        with
                        > automatic weapons if they had them. Or I would get into a
                        transporter to
                        > get to events, if I had one.
                        >
                        > They didn't! I don't! End of story.
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        >
                        > This naturally begs the question, would they have used a sewing
                        machine if
                        > they had one?
                        >
                      • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                        In a message dated 03/04/2006 17:23:44 Central Standard Time, kevin.windsor@sympatico.ca writes: Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have
                        Message 11 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          In a message dated 03/04/2006 17:23:44 Central Standard Time,
                          kevin.windsor@... writes:

                          Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have been armed with
                          automatic weapons if they had them. Or I would get into a transporter to
                          get to events, if I had one.

                          They didn't! I don't! End of story.

                          -----Original Message-----

                          This naturally begs the question, would they have used a sewing machine if
                          they had one?





                          OK so here is a thought, the seamstresses who sewed the uniforms were
                          infinitely faster and more accurate hand sewers than 99.99% of any hand sewers
                          today. In my collection I have coats going back to 1821 and I can assure you
                          that, at close inspection, they look as if they were sewn with a a very fine
                          machine. In other words a well made machine sewn garment will look more accurate
                          than a poorly made hand sewn garment. The main difference in the two methods
                          is that in the hand sewn garment each stitch locks itself and makes the seam
                          much stronger.

                          The problem here, and for much of the equipment we use, is that at the time
                          there were whole professions producing items that now no longer exist. At one
                          time the hand work involved in producing a garment made it cost effective to
                          'cabbage' cloth (stitch scraps together to make useable pieces) rather than
                          use all new cloth. Today this 'cost cutting' measure would increase a garments
                          cost many times.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • mccombs98
                          With this provenance I would suspect they would be increasing in value. Nice Project! Murray
                          Message 12 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            With this provenance I would suspect they would be increasing in value.
                            Nice Project!
                            Murray


                            ....to make me up 10 sets so that I could offer to
                            > re-enactor officers an item that was not available anywhere else and that every one
                            > of them needed. The interesting thing was that the reaction fell into two
                            > distinct camps viz 'Wow these are great I want a set' (one fellow wanted 2 sets),
                            > and '$175 ? That's way too expensive!'
                            > I should point out that in the interveing years Derek Hand has died and the
                            > buisness has been sold out of the family with the new owners unable to work out
                            > how the operate the older machines so those who have them have a unique item.
                            > The cords can never be produced in that manner again.
                          • Phil Graf
                            If you stub your toe on an original bayonet sticking out of a battleground, should your name be added to the casualty lists of that battle? Phil So to my
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 2, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              If you stub your toe on an original bayonet sticking out of a battleground, should your name be added to the casualty lists of that battle?

                              Phil
                              So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
                              are they authentic or reproduction?

                              Cheers

                              Tim

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.