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Re: [WarOf1812] Re: Historical Authenticity?

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  • BritcomHMP@aol.com
    In a message dated 02/04/2006 21:07:09 Central Standard Time, macomb@pop.ca.inter.net writes: Sorry, but theirs would still be authentic, ie. Orignal
    Message 1 of 28 , Apr 2, 2006
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      In a message dated 02/04/2006 21:07:09 Central Standard Time,
      macomb@... writes:

      Sorry, but theirs would still be authentic, ie. Orignal manufacture for
      their day, even if made in their yesterday (or morning for that
      matter:)



      OK Murray, how about this, about 10 years ago I had some British officers
      shako cords made up. They were done by M. Hand & Co of London, the gold and
      crimson square braid was made up on a machine constructed about 1800 (the
      company had been in buisness in one form or another since the restoration of
      Charles II) and they were constructed by hand by Derek Hand the last male decendant
      of the founder to work in the buisness. If you look at the shakos worn by
      Peter Twist, Larry Stutt and myself, and several other British officers you can
      examine them for yourself. So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
      are they authentic or reproduction?

      Cheers

      Tim


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • dancingbobd@webtv.net
      Tim, My vote is for authentic! Bob US Engineer Surgeon 14 LD
      Message 2 of 28 , Apr 2, 2006
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        Tim,

        My vote is for authentic!

        Bob
        US Engineer
        Surgeon 14 LD
      • HQ93rd@aol.com
        ... Merriam Webster: Main Entry: au·then·tic Pronunciation: &- then-tik, o- Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English autentik, from Middle French
        Message 3 of 28 , Apr 2, 2006
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          In a message dated 2/04/2006 9:05:41 PM, dancingbobd@... writes:
          > Tim, 
          > My vote is for authentic!
          > Bob
          > US Engineer
          > Surgeon 14 LD
          >
          Merriam Webster:
          Main Entry: au·then·tic
          Pronunciation: &-'then-tik, o-
          Function: adjective
          Etymology: Middle English autentik, from Middle French autentique, from Late
          Latin authenticus, from Greek authentikos, from authentEs perpetrator, master,
          from aut- + -hentEs (akin to Greek anyein to accomplish, Sanskrit sanoti he
          gains)
          Date: 14th century
          1 : obsolete : AUTHORITATIVE
          2 a : worthy of acceptance or belief as conforming to or based on fact <
          paints an authentic picture of our society> b : conforming to an original so as to
          reproduce essential features <an authentic reproduction of a colonial
          farmhouse> c : made or done the same way as an original <authentic Mexican fare>
          3 : not false or imitation : REAL, ACTUAL <based on authentic documents> <an
          authentic cockney accent>
          4 a : of a church mode : ranging upward from the keynote — compare PLAGAL 1 b
          : of a cadence : progressing from the dominant chord to the tonic — compare
          PLAGAL 2
          5 : true to one's own personality, spirit, or character
          - au·then·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb
          - au·then·tic·i·ty /"o-"then-'ti-s&-tE, -th&n-/ noun
          synonyms AUTHENTIC, GENUINE, BONA FIDE mean being actually and exactly what
          is claimed. AUTHENTIC implies being fully trustworthy as according with fact <
          an authentic account of the perilous journey>; it can also stress painstaking
          or faithful imitation of an original <an authentic reproduction> <authentic
          Vietnamese cuisine>. GENUINE implies actual character not counterfeited,
          imitated, or adulterated <genuine piety> <genuine maple syrup>; it also connotes
          definite origin from a source <a genuine Mark Twain autograph>. BONA FIDE implies
          good faith and sincerity of intention <a bona fide offer for the stock>.

          So, once again, having an item -- especially as Tim has pointed out -- made
          recently by the same company still in existence from 200 years ago, IS
          authentic, no matter when it was made...so to speak, QED...

          And again, following the flawed vein of logic otherwise...even if one was
          wearing an extant uniform from 200 years ago, unless oneself IS over 200 years
          old personally, one would still not be "authentic".
          Thus ends the B.S .rhetoric. (In other words, anything else IS B.S.)

          B ("you look a lot like Adolf Hitler" thus I can win any argument) J
          93rd SHRoFLHU
          THE Thin Red Line
          www.93rdhighlanders.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • mccombs98
          They would be reproduction, but I can t think of a better one, considering how they were made. One could argue that another issue of authentic hat cords have
          Message 4 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
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            They would be reproduction, but I can't think of a better one,
            considering how they were made. One could argue that another issue of
            "authentic" hat cords have been produced by this orignal manufacturer.
            However, I had conceeded that on our discussion lists that "authentic"
            is not synonmous with "original", so I won't beat this dead horse:)
            Cheers
            Murray



            BritcomHMP@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > In a message dated 02/04/2006 21:07:09 Central Standard Time,
            > macomb@... writes:
            >
            > Sorry, but theirs would still be authentic, ie. Orignal manufacture for
            > their day, even if made in their yesterday (or morning for that
            > matter:)
            >
            >
            >
            > OK Murray, how about this, about 10 years ago I had some British officers
            > shako cords made up. They were done by M. Hand & Co of London, the gold and
            > crimson square braid was made up on a machine constructed about 1800 (the
            > company had been in buisness in one form or another since the restoration of
            > Charles II) and they were constructed by hand by Derek Hand the last male decendant
            > of the founder to work in the buisness. If you look at the shakos worn by
            > Peter Twist, Larry Stutt and myself, and several other British officers you can
            > examine them for yourself. So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
            > are they authentic or reproduction?
            >
            > Cheers
            >
            > Tim
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • mccombs98
            Sorry, but they ARE period , but reproduction and not authentic. Murray PS I like your analogy though:)
            Message 5 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
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              Sorry, but they ARE "period", but reproduction and not authentic.
              Murray
              PS I like your analogy though:)


              "Phil Graf" <phil_graf@...> wrote:
              >
              > If you stub your toe on an original bayonet sticking out of a battleground, should your name be added to the casualty lists of that battle?
              >
              > Phil
              > So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
              > are they authentic or reproduction?
              >
              > Cheers
              >
              > Tim
            • Lalozon
              From: ... I had some British officers shako cords made up. They were done by M. Hand & Co of London, and... the last male decendant of
              Message 6 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
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                From: <BritcomHMP@...>

                "... I had some British officers shako cords made up. They were done by M.
                Hand & Co of London, and... the last male decendant of the founder to work
                in the buisness .... So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
                are they authentic or reproduction? "




                Yur Grace

                May I answer your question, with a question? .

                In this hobby should we dwell on the authenticity of an item when the rest
                of our kit is not authentic?

                Yhs.,
                L2
                Take a moment to close your tent if it's contents are not authentic.
              • md5_yager
                This thread is an authentic reproduction of very similar threads seen in woodworking (or antiques, or ... pick whatever involves stuff that is older than you
                Message 7 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
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                  This thread is an authentic reproduction of very similar threads seen
                  in woodworking (or antiques, or ... pick whatever involves 'stuff'
                  that is older than you are).

                  An 'original' piece from the period can certainly be faked. Sort of
                  what we are all doing? BTW, is the USS Constitution original -- let's
                  sucker those Naval types into this discussion. I've heard it said
                  there's not an 'original' timber left in her!? So is she still a
                  reproduction after a couple centuries ?

                  There are reproductions of furniture, which look similar to
                  originals, but are fabricated with modern methods and using plywood
                  in some less visible places. So does this mean my coatee can never
                  be 'authentic', if the hidden seams were sewn on a machine? This
                  naturally begs the question, would they have used a sewing machine if
                  they had one? Same argument about using plywood -- would the Shakers
                  have used it if they'd had it? Of course, but does not mean my piece
                  is not a authentic reproduction. Like most things in life -- depends
                  on whose paying, and what they're asking for.

                  And obviously we have a problem locating 200-year old timber (except
                  maybe in the USS Constitution? :-) So if we do locate 200 year-old
                  timber but use modern machines, modern manufactured finish and
                  authentic 'reproduction' hardware, then is our furniture piece
                  authentic, or a reproduction, or a 'authentic reproduction'.

                  Another in this thread had offered dictionary definitions -- but
                  these aren't always that useful in the real world. Actually, in point
                  of fact, museums often decide these matters -- or whomever is paying
                  the bill. So it's a sliding scale -- do we use 200 year old wood (not
                  likely!); are we using hardware made in the period (or certain to
                  have been made of same material in same manner); are we using the
                  same tools used 200 years ago; are the tools over 200 years old (come
                  on!); are we using the exact same methods ... are we working in a 200
                  year old shop without modern lights and air conditioning ? ... Maybe
                  only in colonial Williamsburg (or fill in your blank ____
                  favorite 'original' but "restored" place). But my "ad nauseum, ad
                  absurdum" (help me, Latin scholars) digression into similar arguments
                  elsewhere shows that "authentic" and reproduction is not so easily
                  defined by looking it up in Webster or Wikipedia or whatever.

                  Quick! Someone shoot this battered horse, and put it out of its
                  misery! D*a!m&%n!!!, stepped on that original bayonet again. Do I not
                  also bleed ?

                  Dave









                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "mccombs98" <macomb@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Sorry, but they ARE "period", but reproduction and not authentic.
                  > Murray
                  > PS I like your analogy though:)
                  >
                  >
                  > "Phil Graf" <phil_graf@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > If you stub your toe on an original bayonet sticking out of a
                  battleground, should your name be added to the casualty lists of that
                  battle?
                  > >
                  > > Phil
                  > > So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
                  > > are they authentic or reproduction?
                  > >
                  > > Cheers
                  > >
                  > > Tim
                  >
                • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                  ... Absolutely not, but the question leads on to other issues in the authenticity discussion. I had these made up as an experiment because it was quite
                  Message 8 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
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                    In a message dated 4/3/06 8:48:04 AM, lalozon@... writes:


                    > In this hobby should we dwell on the authenticity of an item when the rest
                    > of our kit is not authentic?
                    >

                    Absolutely not, but the question leads on to other issues in the authenticity
                    discussion. I had these made up as an experiment because it was quite
                    imposible at the time to make up ANY correct British officers cords for the 1812
                    shako as the gold and crimson square braid was not available. I used some of my
                    'brownie points' with Derek to make me up 10 sets so that I could offer to
                    re-enactor officers an item that was not available anywhere else and that every one
                    of them needed. The interesting thing was that the reaction fell into two
                    distinct camps viz 'Wow these are great I want a set' (one fellow wanted 2 sets),
                    and '$175 ? That's way too expensive!'
                    I should point out that in the interveing years Derek Hand has died and the
                    buisness has been sold out of the family with the new owners unable to work out
                    how the operate the older machines so those who have them have a unique item.
                    The cords can never be produced in that manner again.

                    My point is that it is posible to produce every item of kit authenticly but
                    not everyone wants to, either its too expensive to do it right or they just
                    want the fun of re-inventing the wheel. The only way to have 'uniform' uniforms
                    is for manufactures to conform to the corect patterns with correct materials as
                    was done at the time, but while people want to make up their own kit with end
                    runs of material found at the local store overall authenticity is a deam.

                    In the end I think we must concentrate on safety and authenticity in drill
                    and camping (our public persona) and set minimum standards of dress for everyone
                    to meet, but we will always have those who want every button and stitch
                    perfect and those who are happy with being (dare I say it) fairly accurate,
                    representing British!

                    Cheers

                    Tim



                    Timothy Pickles



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Lalozon
                    From: ... My point is that it is possible to produce every item of kit authentically ... The only way to have uniform uniforms is for
                    Message 9 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
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                      From: <BritcomHMP@...>

                      "... My point is that it is possible to produce every item of kit
                      authentically ... The only way to have 'uniform' uniforms is for
                      manufactures to conform to the correct patterns with correct materials as
                      was done at the time..."







                      Yur Grace

                      Said as per a Leader on Men

                      I was going to email you privately but I feel that this Yahoo Group should
                      read this as some want to do it correctly.



                      While visiting a mutual friend, I offered the question:

                      " Why should some of us care that we have hand stitched trousers made from
                      the correct material and pattern, hand made vests, etc. . when others wear
                      black running shoes?"



                      The answer I was given by him and other re-enactors who do it correctly was,



                      " We do it for ourselves, we know what is correct and wrong"





                      While doing a Revolutionary War event I was asked why I tote a plastic
                      cooler and beer that has to be opened with a modern bottle opener?"

                      He told me if I brought a bottle of red wine I didn't need the cooler or
                      bottle opener and I could find a period cork screw.

                      He also asked, " Why take a three mile detour for a one mile walk!?



                      Those who want to do it, will . those who don't, will find a million excuses
                      not to



                      Yrs.,

                      L2



                      =========
                    • Kevin Windsor
                      Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have been armed with automatic weapons if they had them. Or I would get into a transporter to get to
                      Message 10 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
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                        Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have been armed with
                        automatic weapons if they had them. Or I would get into a transporter to
                        get to events, if I had one.

                        They didn't! I don't! End of story.

                        -----Original Message-----

                        This naturally begs the question, would they have used a sewing machine if
                        they had one?
                      • md5_yager
                        Kevin, The sewing machine can be used to make a authentic reproduction coatee -- in the same way that modern steel and automated CNC milling machines are used
                        Message 11 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
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                          Kevin,
                          The sewing machine can be used to make a authentic reproduction
                          coatee -- in the same way that modern steel and automated CNC milling
                          machines are used to make the lock, stock and barrel of the musket we
                          take onto the field. These same machines can also fashion the parts of
                          the automatic weapons you mention. The coatee made on the sewing
                          machine is no less authentic than the musket made in modern machine
                          shops. OK, OK, you Indian musket owners have a claim!

                          Now about that "transporter", it's called a "re-enactment". End of
                          Story.

                          Dave

                          --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Windsor" <kevin.windsor@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have been armed
                          with
                          > automatic weapons if they had them. Or I would get into a
                          transporter to
                          > get to events, if I had one.
                          >
                          > They didn't! I don't! End of story.
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          >
                          > This naturally begs the question, would they have used a sewing
                          machine if
                          > they had one?
                          >
                        • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                          In a message dated 03/04/2006 17:23:44 Central Standard Time, kevin.windsor@sympatico.ca writes: Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have
                          Message 12 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
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                            In a message dated 03/04/2006 17:23:44 Central Standard Time,
                            kevin.windsor@... writes:

                            Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have been armed with
                            automatic weapons if they had them. Or I would get into a transporter to
                            get to events, if I had one.

                            They didn't! I don't! End of story.

                            -----Original Message-----

                            This naturally begs the question, would they have used a sewing machine if
                            they had one?





                            OK so here is a thought, the seamstresses who sewed the uniforms were
                            infinitely faster and more accurate hand sewers than 99.99% of any hand sewers
                            today. In my collection I have coats going back to 1821 and I can assure you
                            that, at close inspection, they look as if they were sewn with a a very fine
                            machine. In other words a well made machine sewn garment will look more accurate
                            than a poorly made hand sewn garment. The main difference in the two methods
                            is that in the hand sewn garment each stitch locks itself and makes the seam
                            much stronger.

                            The problem here, and for much of the equipment we use, is that at the time
                            there were whole professions producing items that now no longer exist. At one
                            time the hand work involved in producing a garment made it cost effective to
                            'cabbage' cloth (stitch scraps together to make useable pieces) rather than
                            use all new cloth. Today this 'cost cutting' measure would increase a garments
                            cost many times.


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • mccombs98
                            With this provenance I would suspect they would be increasing in value. Nice Project! Murray
                            Message 13 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
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                              With this provenance I would suspect they would be increasing in value.
                              Nice Project!
                              Murray


                              ....to make me up 10 sets so that I could offer to
                              > re-enactor officers an item that was not available anywhere else and that every one
                              > of them needed. The interesting thing was that the reaction fell into two
                              > distinct camps viz 'Wow these are great I want a set' (one fellow wanted 2 sets),
                              > and '$175 ? That's way too expensive!'
                              > I should point out that in the interveing years Derek Hand has died and the
                              > buisness has been sold out of the family with the new owners unable to work out
                              > how the operate the older machines so those who have them have a unique item.
                              > The cords can never be produced in that manner again.
                            • Phil Graf
                              If you stub your toe on an original bayonet sticking out of a battleground, should your name be added to the casualty lists of that battle? Phil So to my
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 2 8:55 PM
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                                If you stub your toe on an original bayonet sticking out of a battleground, should your name be added to the casualty lists of that battle?

                                Phil
                                So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
                                are they authentic or reproduction?

                                Cheers

                                Tim

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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