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Re: Historical Authenticity?

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  • mccombs98
    Sorry, but theirs would still be authentic, ie. Orignal manufacture for their day, even if made in their yesterday (or morning for that matter:) Murray
    Message 1 of 28 , Apr 2, 2006
      Sorry, but theirs would still be authentic, ie. Orignal manufacture for
      their day, even if made in their yesterday (or morning for that
      matter:)
      Murray

      HQ93rd@... wrote:
      >
      > In a message dated 29/03/2006 9:58:48 PM, macomb@... writes:
      > > Small point, but unless your kit and camp is of 200 year old original
      > > manufacture, you would never be "authentic".
      > > The closest would be a "reproduction" or a reasonable "facsimile".
      > > Murray
      > >
      > >
      >
      > Yes, well, but if we are going to use that plumb line of rule and logic, then
      > what they used 200 years ago was not "authentic" as it was all brand new, vis
      > a vie Argentine pay scales, as it were, so to speak, QED....
      >
      > B ( I've read "How To Win An Argument") J
      >
      > 93rd SHRoFLHU
      > THE Thin Red Line
      > www.93rdhighlanders.com
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • BritcomHMP@aol.com
      In a message dated 02/04/2006 21:07:09 Central Standard Time, macomb@pop.ca.inter.net writes: Sorry, but theirs would still be authentic, ie. Orignal
      Message 2 of 28 , Apr 2, 2006
        In a message dated 02/04/2006 21:07:09 Central Standard Time,
        macomb@... writes:

        Sorry, but theirs would still be authentic, ie. Orignal manufacture for
        their day, even if made in their yesterday (or morning for that
        matter:)



        OK Murray, how about this, about 10 years ago I had some British officers
        shako cords made up. They were done by M. Hand & Co of London, the gold and
        crimson square braid was made up on a machine constructed about 1800 (the
        company had been in buisness in one form or another since the restoration of
        Charles II) and they were constructed by hand by Derek Hand the last male decendant
        of the founder to work in the buisness. If you look at the shakos worn by
        Peter Twist, Larry Stutt and myself, and several other British officers you can
        examine them for yourself. So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
        are they authentic or reproduction?

        Cheers

        Tim


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • dancingbobd@webtv.net
        Tim, My vote is for authentic! Bob US Engineer Surgeon 14 LD
        Message 3 of 28 , Apr 2, 2006
          Tim,

          My vote is for authentic!

          Bob
          US Engineer
          Surgeon 14 LD
        • HQ93rd@aol.com
          ... Merriam Webster: Main Entry: au·then·tic Pronunciation: &- then-tik, o- Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English autentik, from Middle French
          Message 4 of 28 , Apr 2, 2006
            In a message dated 2/04/2006 9:05:41 PM, dancingbobd@... writes:
            > Tim, 
            > My vote is for authentic!
            > Bob
            > US Engineer
            > Surgeon 14 LD
            >
            Merriam Webster:
            Main Entry: au·then·tic
            Pronunciation: &-'then-tik, o-
            Function: adjective
            Etymology: Middle English autentik, from Middle French autentique, from Late
            Latin authenticus, from Greek authentikos, from authentEs perpetrator, master,
            from aut- + -hentEs (akin to Greek anyein to accomplish, Sanskrit sanoti he
            gains)
            Date: 14th century
            1 : obsolete : AUTHORITATIVE
            2 a : worthy of acceptance or belief as conforming to or based on fact <
            paints an authentic picture of our society> b : conforming to an original so as to
            reproduce essential features <an authentic reproduction of a colonial
            farmhouse> c : made or done the same way as an original <authentic Mexican fare>
            3 : not false or imitation : REAL, ACTUAL <based on authentic documents> <an
            authentic cockney accent>
            4 a : of a church mode : ranging upward from the keynote — compare PLAGAL 1 b
            : of a cadence : progressing from the dominant chord to the tonic — compare
            PLAGAL 2
            5 : true to one's own personality, spirit, or character
            - au·then·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb
            - au·then·tic·i·ty /"o-"then-'ti-s&-tE, -th&n-/ noun
            synonyms AUTHENTIC, GENUINE, BONA FIDE mean being actually and exactly what
            is claimed. AUTHENTIC implies being fully trustworthy as according with fact <
            an authentic account of the perilous journey>; it can also stress painstaking
            or faithful imitation of an original <an authentic reproduction> <authentic
            Vietnamese cuisine>. GENUINE implies actual character not counterfeited,
            imitated, or adulterated <genuine piety> <genuine maple syrup>; it also connotes
            definite origin from a source <a genuine Mark Twain autograph>. BONA FIDE implies
            good faith and sincerity of intention <a bona fide offer for the stock>.

            So, once again, having an item -- especially as Tim has pointed out -- made
            recently by the same company still in existence from 200 years ago, IS
            authentic, no matter when it was made...so to speak, QED...

            And again, following the flawed vein of logic otherwise...even if one was
            wearing an extant uniform from 200 years ago, unless oneself IS over 200 years
            old personally, one would still not be "authentic".
            Thus ends the B.S .rhetoric. (In other words, anything else IS B.S.)

            B ("you look a lot like Adolf Hitler" thus I can win any argument) J
            93rd SHRoFLHU
            THE Thin Red Line
            www.93rdhighlanders.com


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • mccombs98
            They would be reproduction, but I can t think of a better one, considering how they were made. One could argue that another issue of authentic hat cords have
            Message 5 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
              They would be reproduction, but I can't think of a better one,
              considering how they were made. One could argue that another issue of
              "authentic" hat cords have been produced by this orignal manufacturer.
              However, I had conceeded that on our discussion lists that "authentic"
              is not synonmous with "original", so I won't beat this dead horse:)
              Cheers
              Murray



              BritcomHMP@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 02/04/2006 21:07:09 Central Standard Time,
              > macomb@... writes:
              >
              > Sorry, but theirs would still be authentic, ie. Orignal manufacture for
              > their day, even if made in their yesterday (or morning for that
              > matter:)
              >
              >
              >
              > OK Murray, how about this, about 10 years ago I had some British officers
              > shako cords made up. They were done by M. Hand & Co of London, the gold and
              > crimson square braid was made up on a machine constructed about 1800 (the
              > company had been in buisness in one form or another since the restoration of
              > Charles II) and they were constructed by hand by Derek Hand the last male decendant
              > of the founder to work in the buisness. If you look at the shakos worn by
              > Peter Twist, Larry Stutt and myself, and several other British officers you can
              > examine them for yourself. So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
              > are they authentic or reproduction?
              >
              > Cheers
              >
              > Tim
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • mccombs98
              Sorry, but they ARE period , but reproduction and not authentic. Murray PS I like your analogy though:)
              Message 6 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                Sorry, but they ARE "period", but reproduction and not authentic.
                Murray
                PS I like your analogy though:)


                "Phil Graf" <phil_graf@...> wrote:
                >
                > If you stub your toe on an original bayonet sticking out of a battleground, should your name be added to the casualty lists of that battle?
                >
                > Phil
                > So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
                > are they authentic or reproduction?
                >
                > Cheers
                >
                > Tim
              • Lalozon
                From: ... I had some British officers shako cords made up. They were done by M. Hand & Co of London, and... the last male decendant of
                Message 7 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                  From: <BritcomHMP@...>

                  "... I had some British officers shako cords made up. They were done by M.
                  Hand & Co of London, and... the last male decendant of the founder to work
                  in the buisness .... So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
                  are they authentic or reproduction? "




                  Yur Grace

                  May I answer your question, with a question? .

                  In this hobby should we dwell on the authenticity of an item when the rest
                  of our kit is not authentic?

                  Yhs.,
                  L2
                  Take a moment to close your tent if it's contents are not authentic.
                • md5_yager
                  This thread is an authentic reproduction of very similar threads seen in woodworking (or antiques, or ... pick whatever involves stuff that is older than you
                  Message 8 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                    This thread is an authentic reproduction of very similar threads seen
                    in woodworking (or antiques, or ... pick whatever involves 'stuff'
                    that is older than you are).

                    An 'original' piece from the period can certainly be faked. Sort of
                    what we are all doing? BTW, is the USS Constitution original -- let's
                    sucker those Naval types into this discussion. I've heard it said
                    there's not an 'original' timber left in her!? So is she still a
                    reproduction after a couple centuries ?

                    There are reproductions of furniture, which look similar to
                    originals, but are fabricated with modern methods and using plywood
                    in some less visible places. So does this mean my coatee can never
                    be 'authentic', if the hidden seams were sewn on a machine? This
                    naturally begs the question, would they have used a sewing machine if
                    they had one? Same argument about using plywood -- would the Shakers
                    have used it if they'd had it? Of course, but does not mean my piece
                    is not a authentic reproduction. Like most things in life -- depends
                    on whose paying, and what they're asking for.

                    And obviously we have a problem locating 200-year old timber (except
                    maybe in the USS Constitution? :-) So if we do locate 200 year-old
                    timber but use modern machines, modern manufactured finish and
                    authentic 'reproduction' hardware, then is our furniture piece
                    authentic, or a reproduction, or a 'authentic reproduction'.

                    Another in this thread had offered dictionary definitions -- but
                    these aren't always that useful in the real world. Actually, in point
                    of fact, museums often decide these matters -- or whomever is paying
                    the bill. So it's a sliding scale -- do we use 200 year old wood (not
                    likely!); are we using hardware made in the period (or certain to
                    have been made of same material in same manner); are we using the
                    same tools used 200 years ago; are the tools over 200 years old (come
                    on!); are we using the exact same methods ... are we working in a 200
                    year old shop without modern lights and air conditioning ? ... Maybe
                    only in colonial Williamsburg (or fill in your blank ____
                    favorite 'original' but "restored" place). But my "ad nauseum, ad
                    absurdum" (help me, Latin scholars) digression into similar arguments
                    elsewhere shows that "authentic" and reproduction is not so easily
                    defined by looking it up in Webster or Wikipedia or whatever.

                    Quick! Someone shoot this battered horse, and put it out of its
                    misery! D*a!m&%n!!!, stepped on that original bayonet again. Do I not
                    also bleed ?

                    Dave









                    --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "mccombs98" <macomb@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Sorry, but they ARE "period", but reproduction and not authentic.
                    > Murray
                    > PS I like your analogy though:)
                    >
                    >
                    > "Phil Graf" <phil_graf@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > If you stub your toe on an original bayonet sticking out of a
                    battleground, should your name be added to the casualty lists of that
                    battle?
                    > >
                    > > Phil
                    > > So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
                    > > are they authentic or reproduction?
                    > >
                    > > Cheers
                    > >
                    > > Tim
                    >
                  • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                    ... Absolutely not, but the question leads on to other issues in the authenticity discussion. I had these made up as an experiment because it was quite
                    Message 9 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                      In a message dated 4/3/06 8:48:04 AM, lalozon@... writes:


                      > In this hobby should we dwell on the authenticity of an item when the rest
                      > of our kit is not authentic?
                      >

                      Absolutely not, but the question leads on to other issues in the authenticity
                      discussion. I had these made up as an experiment because it was quite
                      imposible at the time to make up ANY correct British officers cords for the 1812
                      shako as the gold and crimson square braid was not available. I used some of my
                      'brownie points' with Derek to make me up 10 sets so that I could offer to
                      re-enactor officers an item that was not available anywhere else and that every one
                      of them needed. The interesting thing was that the reaction fell into two
                      distinct camps viz 'Wow these are great I want a set' (one fellow wanted 2 sets),
                      and '$175 ? That's way too expensive!'
                      I should point out that in the interveing years Derek Hand has died and the
                      buisness has been sold out of the family with the new owners unable to work out
                      how the operate the older machines so those who have them have a unique item.
                      The cords can never be produced in that manner again.

                      My point is that it is posible to produce every item of kit authenticly but
                      not everyone wants to, either its too expensive to do it right or they just
                      want the fun of re-inventing the wheel. The only way to have 'uniform' uniforms
                      is for manufactures to conform to the corect patterns with correct materials as
                      was done at the time, but while people want to make up their own kit with end
                      runs of material found at the local store overall authenticity is a deam.

                      In the end I think we must concentrate on safety and authenticity in drill
                      and camping (our public persona) and set minimum standards of dress for everyone
                      to meet, but we will always have those who want every button and stitch
                      perfect and those who are happy with being (dare I say it) fairly accurate,
                      representing British!

                      Cheers

                      Tim



                      Timothy Pickles



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Lalozon
                      From: ... My point is that it is possible to produce every item of kit authentically ... The only way to have uniform uniforms is for
                      Message 10 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                        From: <BritcomHMP@...>

                        "... My point is that it is possible to produce every item of kit
                        authentically ... The only way to have 'uniform' uniforms is for
                        manufactures to conform to the correct patterns with correct materials as
                        was done at the time..."







                        Yur Grace

                        Said as per a Leader on Men

                        I was going to email you privately but I feel that this Yahoo Group should
                        read this as some want to do it correctly.



                        While visiting a mutual friend, I offered the question:

                        " Why should some of us care that we have hand stitched trousers made from
                        the correct material and pattern, hand made vests, etc. . when others wear
                        black running shoes?"



                        The answer I was given by him and other re-enactors who do it correctly was,



                        " We do it for ourselves, we know what is correct and wrong"





                        While doing a Revolutionary War event I was asked why I tote a plastic
                        cooler and beer that has to be opened with a modern bottle opener?"

                        He told me if I brought a bottle of red wine I didn't need the cooler or
                        bottle opener and I could find a period cork screw.

                        He also asked, " Why take a three mile detour for a one mile walk!?



                        Those who want to do it, will . those who don't, will find a million excuses
                        not to



                        Yrs.,

                        L2



                        =========
                      • Kevin Windsor
                        Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have been armed with automatic weapons if they had them. Or I would get into a transporter to get to
                        Message 11 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                          Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have been armed with
                          automatic weapons if they had them. Or I would get into a transporter to
                          get to events, if I had one.

                          They didn't! I don't! End of story.

                          -----Original Message-----

                          This naturally begs the question, would they have used a sewing machine if
                          they had one?
                        • md5_yager
                          Kevin, The sewing machine can be used to make a authentic reproduction coatee -- in the same way that modern steel and automated CNC milling machines are used
                          Message 12 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                            Kevin,
                            The sewing machine can be used to make a authentic reproduction
                            coatee -- in the same way that modern steel and automated CNC milling
                            machines are used to make the lock, stock and barrel of the musket we
                            take onto the field. These same machines can also fashion the parts of
                            the automatic weapons you mention. The coatee made on the sewing
                            machine is no less authentic than the musket made in modern machine
                            shops. OK, OK, you Indian musket owners have a claim!

                            Now about that "transporter", it's called a "re-enactment". End of
                            Story.

                            Dave

                            --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Windsor" <kevin.windsor@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have been armed
                            with
                            > automatic weapons if they had them. Or I would get into a
                            transporter to
                            > get to events, if I had one.
                            >
                            > They didn't! I don't! End of story.
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            >
                            > This naturally begs the question, would they have used a sewing
                            machine if
                            > they had one?
                            >
                          • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                            In a message dated 03/04/2006 17:23:44 Central Standard Time, kevin.windsor@sympatico.ca writes: Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have
                            Message 13 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                              In a message dated 03/04/2006 17:23:44 Central Standard Time,
                              kevin.windsor@... writes:

                              Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have been armed with
                              automatic weapons if they had them. Or I would get into a transporter to
                              get to events, if I had one.

                              They didn't! I don't! End of story.

                              -----Original Message-----

                              This naturally begs the question, would they have used a sewing machine if
                              they had one?





                              OK so here is a thought, the seamstresses who sewed the uniforms were
                              infinitely faster and more accurate hand sewers than 99.99% of any hand sewers
                              today. In my collection I have coats going back to 1821 and I can assure you
                              that, at close inspection, they look as if they were sewn with a a very fine
                              machine. In other words a well made machine sewn garment will look more accurate
                              than a poorly made hand sewn garment. The main difference in the two methods
                              is that in the hand sewn garment each stitch locks itself and makes the seam
                              much stronger.

                              The problem here, and for much of the equipment we use, is that at the time
                              there were whole professions producing items that now no longer exist. At one
                              time the hand work involved in producing a garment made it cost effective to
                              'cabbage' cloth (stitch scraps together to make useable pieces) rather than
                              use all new cloth. Today this 'cost cutting' measure would increase a garments
                              cost many times.


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • mccombs98
                              With this provenance I would suspect they would be increasing in value. Nice Project! Murray
                              Message 14 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                                With this provenance I would suspect they would be increasing in value.
                                Nice Project!
                                Murray


                                ....to make me up 10 sets so that I could offer to
                                > re-enactor officers an item that was not available anywhere else and that every one
                                > of them needed. The interesting thing was that the reaction fell into two
                                > distinct camps viz 'Wow these are great I want a set' (one fellow wanted 2 sets),
                                > and '$175 ? That's way too expensive!'
                                > I should point out that in the interveing years Derek Hand has died and the
                                > buisness has been sold out of the family with the new owners unable to work out
                                > how the operate the older machines so those who have them have a unique item.
                                > The cords can never be produced in that manner again.
                              • Phil Graf
                                If you stub your toe on an original bayonet sticking out of a battleground, should your name be added to the casualty lists of that battle? Phil So to my
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 2, 2006
                                  If you stub your toe on an original bayonet sticking out of a battleground, should your name be added to the casualty lists of that battle?

                                  Phil
                                  So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
                                  are they authentic or reproduction?

                                  Cheers

                                  Tim

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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