Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [WarOf1812] Re: Historical Authenticity?

Expand Messages
  • HQ93rd@aol.com
    ... Yes, well, but if we are going to use that plumb line of rule and logic, then what they used 200 years ago was not authentic as it was all brand new, vis
    Message 1 of 28 , Apr 2, 2006
      In a message dated 29/03/2006 9:58:48 PM, macomb@... writes:
      > Small point, but unless your kit and camp is of 200 year old original
      > manufacture, you would never be "authentic".
      > The closest would be a "reproduction" or a reasonable "facsimile".
      > Murray
      >
      >

      Yes, well, but if we are going to use that plumb line of rule and logic, then
      what they used 200 years ago was not "authentic" as it was all brand new, vis
      a vie Argentine pay scales, as it were, so to speak, QED....

      B ( I've read "How To Win An Argument") J

      93rd SHRoFLHU
      THE Thin Red Line
      www.93rdhighlanders.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • mccombs98
      Sorry, but theirs would still be authentic, ie. Orignal manufacture for their day, even if made in their yesterday (or morning for that matter:) Murray
      Message 2 of 28 , Apr 2, 2006
        Sorry, but theirs would still be authentic, ie. Orignal manufacture for
        their day, even if made in their yesterday (or morning for that
        matter:)
        Murray

        HQ93rd@... wrote:
        >
        > In a message dated 29/03/2006 9:58:48 PM, macomb@... writes:
        > > Small point, but unless your kit and camp is of 200 year old original
        > > manufacture, you would never be "authentic".
        > > The closest would be a "reproduction" or a reasonable "facsimile".
        > > Murray
        > >
        > >
        >
        > Yes, well, but if we are going to use that plumb line of rule and logic, then
        > what they used 200 years ago was not "authentic" as it was all brand new, vis
        > a vie Argentine pay scales, as it were, so to speak, QED....
        >
        > B ( I've read "How To Win An Argument") J
        >
        > 93rd SHRoFLHU
        > THE Thin Red Line
        > www.93rdhighlanders.com
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • BritcomHMP@aol.com
        In a message dated 02/04/2006 21:07:09 Central Standard Time, macomb@pop.ca.inter.net writes: Sorry, but theirs would still be authentic, ie. Orignal
        Message 3 of 28 , Apr 2, 2006
          In a message dated 02/04/2006 21:07:09 Central Standard Time,
          macomb@... writes:

          Sorry, but theirs would still be authentic, ie. Orignal manufacture for
          their day, even if made in their yesterday (or morning for that
          matter:)



          OK Murray, how about this, about 10 years ago I had some British officers
          shako cords made up. They were done by M. Hand & Co of London, the gold and
          crimson square braid was made up on a machine constructed about 1800 (the
          company had been in buisness in one form or another since the restoration of
          Charles II) and they were constructed by hand by Derek Hand the last male decendant
          of the founder to work in the buisness. If you look at the shakos worn by
          Peter Twist, Larry Stutt and myself, and several other British officers you can
          examine them for yourself. So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
          are they authentic or reproduction?

          Cheers

          Tim


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • dancingbobd@webtv.net
          Tim, My vote is for authentic! Bob US Engineer Surgeon 14 LD
          Message 4 of 28 , Apr 2, 2006
            Tim,

            My vote is for authentic!

            Bob
            US Engineer
            Surgeon 14 LD
          • HQ93rd@aol.com
            ... Merriam Webster: Main Entry: au·then·tic Pronunciation: &- then-tik, o- Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English autentik, from Middle French
            Message 5 of 28 , Apr 2, 2006
              In a message dated 2/04/2006 9:05:41 PM, dancingbobd@... writes:
              > Tim, 
              > My vote is for authentic!
              > Bob
              > US Engineer
              > Surgeon 14 LD
              >
              Merriam Webster:
              Main Entry: au·then·tic
              Pronunciation: &-'then-tik, o-
              Function: adjective
              Etymology: Middle English autentik, from Middle French autentique, from Late
              Latin authenticus, from Greek authentikos, from authentEs perpetrator, master,
              from aut- + -hentEs (akin to Greek anyein to accomplish, Sanskrit sanoti he
              gains)
              Date: 14th century
              1 : obsolete : AUTHORITATIVE
              2 a : worthy of acceptance or belief as conforming to or based on fact <
              paints an authentic picture of our society> b : conforming to an original so as to
              reproduce essential features <an authentic reproduction of a colonial
              farmhouse> c : made or done the same way as an original <authentic Mexican fare>
              3 : not false or imitation : REAL, ACTUAL <based on authentic documents> <an
              authentic cockney accent>
              4 a : of a church mode : ranging upward from the keynote — compare PLAGAL 1 b
              : of a cadence : progressing from the dominant chord to the tonic — compare
              PLAGAL 2
              5 : true to one's own personality, spirit, or character
              - au·then·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb
              - au·then·tic·i·ty /"o-"then-'ti-s&-tE, -th&n-/ noun
              synonyms AUTHENTIC, GENUINE, BONA FIDE mean being actually and exactly what
              is claimed. AUTHENTIC implies being fully trustworthy as according with fact <
              an authentic account of the perilous journey>; it can also stress painstaking
              or faithful imitation of an original <an authentic reproduction> <authentic
              Vietnamese cuisine>. GENUINE implies actual character not counterfeited,
              imitated, or adulterated <genuine piety> <genuine maple syrup>; it also connotes
              definite origin from a source <a genuine Mark Twain autograph>. BONA FIDE implies
              good faith and sincerity of intention <a bona fide offer for the stock>.

              So, once again, having an item -- especially as Tim has pointed out -- made
              recently by the same company still in existence from 200 years ago, IS
              authentic, no matter when it was made...so to speak, QED...

              And again, following the flawed vein of logic otherwise...even if one was
              wearing an extant uniform from 200 years ago, unless oneself IS over 200 years
              old personally, one would still not be "authentic".
              Thus ends the B.S .rhetoric. (In other words, anything else IS B.S.)

              B ("you look a lot like Adolf Hitler" thus I can win any argument) J
              93rd SHRoFLHU
              THE Thin Red Line
              www.93rdhighlanders.com


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • mccombs98
              They would be reproduction, but I can t think of a better one, considering how they were made. One could argue that another issue of authentic hat cords have
              Message 6 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                They would be reproduction, but I can't think of a better one,
                considering how they were made. One could argue that another issue of
                "authentic" hat cords have been produced by this orignal manufacturer.
                However, I had conceeded that on our discussion lists that "authentic"
                is not synonmous with "original", so I won't beat this dead horse:)
                Cheers
                Murray



                BritcomHMP@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > In a message dated 02/04/2006 21:07:09 Central Standard Time,
                > macomb@... writes:
                >
                > Sorry, but theirs would still be authentic, ie. Orignal manufacture for
                > their day, even if made in their yesterday (or morning for that
                > matter:)
                >
                >
                >
                > OK Murray, how about this, about 10 years ago I had some British officers
                > shako cords made up. They were done by M. Hand & Co of London, the gold and
                > crimson square braid was made up on a machine constructed about 1800 (the
                > company had been in buisness in one form or another since the restoration of
                > Charles II) and they were constructed by hand by Derek Hand the last male decendant
                > of the founder to work in the buisness. If you look at the shakos worn by
                > Peter Twist, Larry Stutt and myself, and several other British officers you can
                > examine them for yourself. So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
                > are they authentic or reproduction?
                >
                > Cheers
                >
                > Tim
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • mccombs98
                Sorry, but they ARE period , but reproduction and not authentic. Murray PS I like your analogy though:)
                Message 7 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                  Sorry, but they ARE "period", but reproduction and not authentic.
                  Murray
                  PS I like your analogy though:)


                  "Phil Graf" <phil_graf@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > If you stub your toe on an original bayonet sticking out of a battleground, should your name be added to the casualty lists of that battle?
                  >
                  > Phil
                  > So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
                  > are they authentic or reproduction?
                  >
                  > Cheers
                  >
                  > Tim
                • Lalozon
                  From: ... I had some British officers shako cords made up. They were done by M. Hand & Co of London, and... the last male decendant of
                  Message 8 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                    From: <BritcomHMP@...>

                    "... I had some British officers shako cords made up. They were done by M.
                    Hand & Co of London, and... the last male decendant of the founder to work
                    in the buisness .... So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
                    are they authentic or reproduction? "




                    Yur Grace

                    May I answer your question, with a question? .

                    In this hobby should we dwell on the authenticity of an item when the rest
                    of our kit is not authentic?

                    Yhs.,
                    L2
                    Take a moment to close your tent if it's contents are not authentic.
                  • md5_yager
                    This thread is an authentic reproduction of very similar threads seen in woodworking (or antiques, or ... pick whatever involves stuff that is older than you
                    Message 9 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                      This thread is an authentic reproduction of very similar threads seen
                      in woodworking (or antiques, or ... pick whatever involves 'stuff'
                      that is older than you are).

                      An 'original' piece from the period can certainly be faked. Sort of
                      what we are all doing? BTW, is the USS Constitution original -- let's
                      sucker those Naval types into this discussion. I've heard it said
                      there's not an 'original' timber left in her!? So is she still a
                      reproduction after a couple centuries ?

                      There are reproductions of furniture, which look similar to
                      originals, but are fabricated with modern methods and using plywood
                      in some less visible places. So does this mean my coatee can never
                      be 'authentic', if the hidden seams were sewn on a machine? This
                      naturally begs the question, would they have used a sewing machine if
                      they had one? Same argument about using plywood -- would the Shakers
                      have used it if they'd had it? Of course, but does not mean my piece
                      is not a authentic reproduction. Like most things in life -- depends
                      on whose paying, and what they're asking for.

                      And obviously we have a problem locating 200-year old timber (except
                      maybe in the USS Constitution? :-) So if we do locate 200 year-old
                      timber but use modern machines, modern manufactured finish and
                      authentic 'reproduction' hardware, then is our furniture piece
                      authentic, or a reproduction, or a 'authentic reproduction'.

                      Another in this thread had offered dictionary definitions -- but
                      these aren't always that useful in the real world. Actually, in point
                      of fact, museums often decide these matters -- or whomever is paying
                      the bill. So it's a sliding scale -- do we use 200 year old wood (not
                      likely!); are we using hardware made in the period (or certain to
                      have been made of same material in same manner); are we using the
                      same tools used 200 years ago; are the tools over 200 years old (come
                      on!); are we using the exact same methods ... are we working in a 200
                      year old shop without modern lights and air conditioning ? ... Maybe
                      only in colonial Williamsburg (or fill in your blank ____
                      favorite 'original' but "restored" place). But my "ad nauseum, ad
                      absurdum" (help me, Latin scholars) digression into similar arguments
                      elsewhere shows that "authentic" and reproduction is not so easily
                      defined by looking it up in Webster or Wikipedia or whatever.

                      Quick! Someone shoot this battered horse, and put it out of its
                      misery! D*a!m&%n!!!, stepped on that original bayonet again. Do I not
                      also bleed ?

                      Dave









                      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "mccombs98" <macomb@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Sorry, but they ARE "period", but reproduction and not authentic.
                      > Murray
                      > PS I like your analogy though:)
                      >
                      >
                      > "Phil Graf" <phil_graf@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > If you stub your toe on an original bayonet sticking out of a
                      battleground, should your name be added to the casualty lists of that
                      battle?
                      > >
                      > > Phil
                      > > So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
                      > > are they authentic or reproduction?
                      > >
                      > > Cheers
                      > >
                      > > Tim
                      >
                    • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                      ... Absolutely not, but the question leads on to other issues in the authenticity discussion. I had these made up as an experiment because it was quite
                      Message 10 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                        In a message dated 4/3/06 8:48:04 AM, lalozon@... writes:


                        > In this hobby should we dwell on the authenticity of an item when the rest
                        > of our kit is not authentic?
                        >

                        Absolutely not, but the question leads on to other issues in the authenticity
                        discussion. I had these made up as an experiment because it was quite
                        imposible at the time to make up ANY correct British officers cords for the 1812
                        shako as the gold and crimson square braid was not available. I used some of my
                        'brownie points' with Derek to make me up 10 sets so that I could offer to
                        re-enactor officers an item that was not available anywhere else and that every one
                        of them needed. The interesting thing was that the reaction fell into two
                        distinct camps viz 'Wow these are great I want a set' (one fellow wanted 2 sets),
                        and '$175 ? That's way too expensive!'
                        I should point out that in the interveing years Derek Hand has died and the
                        buisness has been sold out of the family with the new owners unable to work out
                        how the operate the older machines so those who have them have a unique item.
                        The cords can never be produced in that manner again.

                        My point is that it is posible to produce every item of kit authenticly but
                        not everyone wants to, either its too expensive to do it right or they just
                        want the fun of re-inventing the wheel. The only way to have 'uniform' uniforms
                        is for manufactures to conform to the corect patterns with correct materials as
                        was done at the time, but while people want to make up their own kit with end
                        runs of material found at the local store overall authenticity is a deam.

                        In the end I think we must concentrate on safety and authenticity in drill
                        and camping (our public persona) and set minimum standards of dress for everyone
                        to meet, but we will always have those who want every button and stitch
                        perfect and those who are happy with being (dare I say it) fairly accurate,
                        representing British!

                        Cheers

                        Tim



                        Timothy Pickles



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Lalozon
                        From: ... My point is that it is possible to produce every item of kit authentically ... The only way to have uniform uniforms is for
                        Message 11 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                          From: <BritcomHMP@...>

                          "... My point is that it is possible to produce every item of kit
                          authentically ... The only way to have 'uniform' uniforms is for
                          manufactures to conform to the correct patterns with correct materials as
                          was done at the time..."







                          Yur Grace

                          Said as per a Leader on Men

                          I was going to email you privately but I feel that this Yahoo Group should
                          read this as some want to do it correctly.



                          While visiting a mutual friend, I offered the question:

                          " Why should some of us care that we have hand stitched trousers made from
                          the correct material and pattern, hand made vests, etc. . when others wear
                          black running shoes?"



                          The answer I was given by him and other re-enactors who do it correctly was,



                          " We do it for ourselves, we know what is correct and wrong"





                          While doing a Revolutionary War event I was asked why I tote a plastic
                          cooler and beer that has to be opened with a modern bottle opener?"

                          He told me if I brought a bottle of red wine I didn't need the cooler or
                          bottle opener and I could find a period cork screw.

                          He also asked, " Why take a three mile detour for a one mile walk!?



                          Those who want to do it, will . those who don't, will find a million excuses
                          not to



                          Yrs.,

                          L2



                          =========
                        • Kevin Windsor
                          Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have been armed with automatic weapons if they had them. Or I would get into a transporter to get to
                          Message 12 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                            Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have been armed with
                            automatic weapons if they had them. Or I would get into a transporter to
                            get to events, if I had one.

                            They didn't! I don't! End of story.

                            -----Original Message-----

                            This naturally begs the question, would they have used a sewing machine if
                            they had one?
                          • md5_yager
                            Kevin, The sewing machine can be used to make a authentic reproduction coatee -- in the same way that modern steel and automated CNC milling machines are used
                            Message 13 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                              Kevin,
                              The sewing machine can be used to make a authentic reproduction
                              coatee -- in the same way that modern steel and automated CNC milling
                              machines are used to make the lock, stock and barrel of the musket we
                              take onto the field. These same machines can also fashion the parts of
                              the automatic weapons you mention. The coatee made on the sewing
                              machine is no less authentic than the musket made in modern machine
                              shops. OK, OK, you Indian musket owners have a claim!

                              Now about that "transporter", it's called a "re-enactment". End of
                              Story.

                              Dave

                              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Windsor" <kevin.windsor@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have been armed
                              with
                              > automatic weapons if they had them. Or I would get into a
                              transporter to
                              > get to events, if I had one.
                              >
                              > They didn't! I don't! End of story.
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              >
                              > This naturally begs the question, would they have used a sewing
                              machine if
                              > they had one?
                              >
                            • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                              In a message dated 03/04/2006 17:23:44 Central Standard Time, kevin.windsor@sympatico.ca writes: Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have
                              Message 14 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                                In a message dated 03/04/2006 17:23:44 Central Standard Time,
                                kevin.windsor@... writes:

                                Yes, in the same way that the British army would all have been armed with
                                automatic weapons if they had them. Or I would get into a transporter to
                                get to events, if I had one.

                                They didn't! I don't! End of story.

                                -----Original Message-----

                                This naturally begs the question, would they have used a sewing machine if
                                they had one?





                                OK so here is a thought, the seamstresses who sewed the uniforms were
                                infinitely faster and more accurate hand sewers than 99.99% of any hand sewers
                                today. In my collection I have coats going back to 1821 and I can assure you
                                that, at close inspection, they look as if they were sewn with a a very fine
                                machine. In other words a well made machine sewn garment will look more accurate
                                than a poorly made hand sewn garment. The main difference in the two methods
                                is that in the hand sewn garment each stitch locks itself and makes the seam
                                much stronger.

                                The problem here, and for much of the equipment we use, is that at the time
                                there were whole professions producing items that now no longer exist. At one
                                time the hand work involved in producing a garment made it cost effective to
                                'cabbage' cloth (stitch scraps together to make useable pieces) rather than
                                use all new cloth. Today this 'cost cutting' measure would increase a garments
                                cost many times.


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • mccombs98
                                With this provenance I would suspect they would be increasing in value. Nice Project! Murray
                                Message 15 of 28 , Apr 3, 2006
                                  With this provenance I would suspect they would be increasing in value.
                                  Nice Project!
                                  Murray


                                  ....to make me up 10 sets so that I could offer to
                                  > re-enactor officers an item that was not available anywhere else and that every one
                                  > of them needed. The interesting thing was that the reaction fell into two
                                  > distinct camps viz 'Wow these are great I want a set' (one fellow wanted 2 sets),
                                  > and '$175 ? That's way too expensive!'
                                  > I should point out that in the interveing years Derek Hand has died and the
                                  > buisness has been sold out of the family with the new owners unable to work out
                                  > how the operate the older machines so those who have them have a unique item.
                                  > The cords can never be produced in that manner again.
                                • Phil Graf
                                  If you stub your toe on an original bayonet sticking out of a battleground, should your name be added to the casualty lists of that battle? Phil So to my
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 2, 2006
                                    If you stub your toe on an original bayonet sticking out of a battleground, should your name be added to the casualty lists of that battle?

                                    Phil
                                    So to my question I know they are not PERIOD but
                                    are they authentic or reproduction?

                                    Cheers

                                    Tim

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.