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Re: [WarOf1812] Re: Historical Authenticity? Sailors and Canteens?

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  • Peter Monahan
    I would suggest that a period looking bottle - check an antiques book for proper shape - covered in leather would be both HA enough for all but the thread
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 1, 2006
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      I would suggest that a period looking bottle - check an antiques book for proper shape - covered in leather would be both HA enough for all but the thread counters, nicve to look at and reasonably durable. Mr. Lazon has/had one I quite liked!

      I'll even provide the leather and/or labour for anyone interested.

      Peter monahan
      ============================================================
      From: "mccombs98" <macomb@...>
      Date: 2006/03/31 Fri PM 07:18:09 EST
      To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Historical Authenticity? Sailors and Canteens?

      A glass or plastic properly shaped bottle wrapped in leather works well
      for me. The water remains fresh and cool for quite a long time.
      Murray



      "Patrick Schifferdecker" <boldbritishhero@...> wrote:
      >
      > A solution for gun crews would be to have a scuttlebutt, just like
      > aboard ship. Landing parties may need some other alternatives.
      > Canteens?, maybe stoneware flasks? or any of Angela's suggestions or
      > even a mixture. Or unit leadship/event organizers needs to include
      > this in planning. I can here it now..."How do we water the navy?"
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Lt. Patrick Schifferdecker
      > Naval Establishment
      > Crown Forces North America
      >
      > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Angela Gottfred" <agottfre@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Given the wide variety of canteens
      > > > that appear at 1812 reenactments, we need your guidance in
      > selecting the
      > > > most authentic style acceptable for our portrayal to ensure that
      > they will
      > > > not forever be criticized as not being authentic
      > >
      > > I apologize if the following comments show I'm out of my depth,
      > but in fur trade
      > > portrayals of the same era, we encountered similar problems--zero
      > documentation
      > > for canteens, but a very real need for some source of water. Here
      > are some
      > > suggestions for you for improvised containers, rather than
      > canteens:
      > > reproduction glass bottles; an extra-large mug (1/2 litre size)
      > with cover; or a
      > > specially designated wooden pail full of fresh water, that period
      > mugs can be
      > > filled from with a clean dipper.
      > >
      > > Your humble & obedient servant,
      > > Angela Gottfred
      > >
      >






      The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

      Unit Contact information for North America:
      ---------------------------------
      Crown Forces Unit Listing:
      http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

      American Forces Unit Listing
      http://usforces1812.tripod.com
      Yahoo! Groups Links





      ============================================================
    • Dale Kidd
      ... for proper shape - covered in leather would be both HA enough for all but the thread counters, nicve to look at and reasonably durable. Mr. Lazon has/had
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 2, 2006
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        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Peter Monahan <petemonahan@...> wrote:
        >
        > I would suggest that a period looking bottle - check an antiques book
        for proper shape - covered in leather would be both HA enough for all
        but the thread counters, nicve to look at and reasonably durable. Mr.
        Lazon has/had one I quite liked!
        >
        > I'll even provide the leather and/or labour for anyone interested.
        >
        > Peter monahan


        Also appropriate to period, I believe, is a bottle wrapped in cord. I
        carry one of these, although when Allison made mine for me, she took
        the liberty of gluing the cord down so that it would not always be
        unwrapping. This also protects you if the bottle get broken... holds it
        all together. (I am a firm believer that minor modern touches that do
        not detract from authentic appearance are not only acceptable, but
        desireable. They make the maintenance of our gear far simpler and less
        time consuming, which is a neccessity since we are not living in the
        days when these things were ALL we had to deal with.)

        I should note that we have several (half-dozen or so) extra of these
        bottles made up, and available for sale... cheap. (I'm trying to clear
        out all the extra "stuff" we have lying around.) Anyone wanting one can
        contact Allison or myself off-list for details, and I'll bring the
        bottles to Longwoods in May for them.

        Keep yer powder dry.
        ~Dale
      • LCpl_rm
        Jim/Patrick Been going over my narratives on the Chesapeake campaigns and though I ve found a couple of statements about the sailors of the Naval Battalions
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 2, 2006
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          Jim/Patrick

          Been going over my narratives on the Chesapeake campaigns and though I've found a couple of statements about the sailors of the Naval Battalions eating biscuit from their haversacks, there's nothing about water. And surely with the heat and humidity down here in the summer, there would have been a need to carry or obtain water.

          The only mention of canteens comes from Major Wybourn in his diary in April 1813, he relates that he was ordered to gather 80 men and a subaltern for an expedition. Accordingly he "proceeded, armed and provided with everything necessary: canteens; camp kettles & a blanket each man." Major Wybourn was then Captain of the company of Royal Marines aboard the HMS Marlborough and its unclear whether the statement pertains to just his detachment or the entire expedition which consisted of over 150 Marines and 200 Sailors.

          For ourselves, naturally we carry canteens but for camp, we carry canvas buckets and keep several filled; one at least near the campfire. The advantage of canvas buckets is that they can be easily folded and stored in a small space unlike woodenware. We generally have one of our tinware pots filled with water also. We also keep several stoneware jugs, one for grog (which Sir Larry can attest) and another usually for cinnamon water. We will probably add a third for wine since the alternative for beer and grog in a sailors diet is wine.

          There's a company that is making beer and ale and bottling it in repopped 18th century bottles of which we have gotten a few.

          As far as carrying extra water into the field, a couple of ship's boys carry canvas buckets would be more appropriate then camp followers.

          My two shillings worth,

          Cheers,

          Ed Seufert, Cpl
          1812 Royal Marines
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Jim Pierce
          To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 7:31 PM
          Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Re: Historical Authenticity? Sailors and Canteens?


          Patrick,

          Beer...well that is how the RN would have done it :7] Sincerely though, we do make great compromises in our portrayals to "Army PC" and "site management"...who, not incidently have the lips of the army impressions glued to their ears. Don't get me wrong, safety is paramount, but if we want to play "army" in different outfits, we need to rearrange our priorities. The Navy wasn't the army.

          Personally for events I use a recreated period Gin Bottle to carry water on the field. I've hitched a hemp covering for the bottle to give it some strength. It is beautiful, looks "maritime", and satisfies the site requirements to be "watered" on the field.

          Fair Winds,

          Jim Pierce


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

          Unit Contact information for North America:
          ---------------------------------
          Crown Forces Unit Listing:
          http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

          American Forces Unit Listing
          http://usforces1812.tripod.com



          SPONSORED LINKS United kingdom Living history War of 1812


          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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          a.. Visit your group "WarOf1812" on the web.

          b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Patrick Schifferdecker
          Ed, Please give the citation for sailors and haversacks. Cheers, Patrick ... though I ve found a couple of statements about the sailors of the Naval Battalions
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 2, 2006
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            Ed,
            Please give the citation for sailors and haversacks.

            Cheers,
            Patrick

            --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "LCpl_rm" <LCpl_RM@...> wrote:
            >
            > Jim/Patrick
            >
            > Been going over my narratives on the Chesapeake campaigns and
            though I've found a couple of statements about the sailors of the
            Naval Battalions eating biscuit from their haversacks, there's
            nothing about water. And surely with the heat and humidity down
            here in the summer, there would have been a need to carry or obtain
            water.
            >
            > The only mention of canteens comes from Major Wybourn in his diary
            in April 1813, he relates that he was ordered to gather 80 men and a
            subaltern for an expedition. Accordingly he "proceeded, armed and
            provided with everything necessary: canteens; camp kettles & a
            blanket each man." Major Wybourn was then Captain of the company of
            Royal Marines aboard the HMS Marlborough and its unclear whether the
            statement pertains to just his detachment or the entire expedition
            which consisted of over 150 Marines and 200 Sailors.
            >
            > For ourselves, naturally we carry canteens but for camp, we carry
            canvas buckets and keep several filled; one at least near the
            campfire. The advantage of canvas buckets is that they can be
            easily folded and stored in a small space unlike woodenware. We
            generally have one of our tinware pots filled with water also. We
            also keep several stoneware jugs, one for grog (which Sir Larry can
            attest) and another usually for cinnamon water. We will probably
            add a third for wine since the alternative for beer and grog in a
            sailors diet is wine.
            >
            > There's a company that is making beer and ale and bottling it in
            repopped 18th century bottles of which we have gotten a few.
            >
            > As far as carrying extra water into the field, a couple of ship's
            boys carry canvas buckets would be more appropriate then camp
            followers.
            >
            > My two shillings worth,
            >
            > Cheers,
            >
            > Ed Seufert, Cpl
            > 1812 Royal Marines
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Jim Pierce
            > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 7:31 PM
            > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Re: Historical Authenticity? Sailors
            and Canteens?
            >
            >
            > Patrick,
            >
            > Beer...well that is how the RN would have done it :7] Sincerely
            though, we do make great compromises in our portrayals to "Army PC"
            and "site management"...who, not incidently have the lips of the
            army impressions glued to their ears. Don't get me wrong, safety is
            paramount, but if we want to play "army" in different outfits, we
            need to rearrange our priorities. The Navy wasn't the army.
            >
            > Personally for events I use a recreated period Gin Bottle to
            carry water on the field. I've hitched a hemp covering for the
            bottle to give it some strength. It is beautiful, looks "maritime",
            and satisfies the site requirements to be "watered" on the field.
            >
            > Fair Winds,
            >
            > Jim Pierce
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
            hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the
            fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
            >
            > Unit Contact information for North America:
            > ---------------------------------
            > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
            > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
            >
            > American Forces Unit Listing
            > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
            >
            >
            >
            > SPONSORED LINKS United kingdom Living history War of 1812
            >
            >
            > -------------------------------------------------------------------
            -----------
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >
            > a.. Visit your group "WarOf1812" on the web.
            >
            > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
            of Service.
            >
            >
            > -------------------------------------------------------------------
            -----------
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Patrick Schifferdecker
            I would suggest willow as an alternate. I ve found two willow covered bottles associated with the Royal Navy. What I found most interesting was that while they
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 2, 2006
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              I would suggest willow as an alternate. I've found two willow
              covered bottles associated with the Royal Navy. What I found most
              interesting was that while they had many similarities they are
              separated by 250-300 years.
              Cheers,
              Patrick

              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Peter Monahan <petemonahan@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > I would suggest that a period looking bottle - check an antiques
              book for proper shape - covered in leather would be both HA enough
              for all but the thread counters, nicve to look at and reasonably
              durable. Mr. Lazon has/had one I quite liked!
              >
              > I'll even provide the leather and/or labour for anyone interested.
              >
              > Peter monahan
              > ============================================================
              > From: "mccombs98" <macomb@...>
              > Date: 2006/03/31 Fri PM 07:18:09 EST
              > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Historical Authenticity? Sailors and
              Canteens?
              >
              > A glass or plastic properly shaped bottle wrapped in leather works
              well
              > for me. The water remains fresh and cool for quite a long time.
              > Murray
              >
              >
              >
              > "Patrick Schifferdecker" <boldbritishhero@> wrote:
              > >
              > > A solution for gun crews would be to have a scuttlebutt, just
              like
              > > aboard ship. Landing parties may need some other alternatives.
              > > Canteens?, maybe stoneware flasks? or any of Angela's
              suggestions or
              > > even a mixture. Or unit leadship/event organizers needs to
              include
              > > this in planning. I can here it now..."How do we water the navy?"
              > >
              > > Cheers,
              > > Lt. Patrick Schifferdecker
              > > Naval Establishment
              > > Crown Forces North America
              > >
              > > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Angela Gottfred" <agottfre@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Given the wide variety of canteens
              > > > > that appear at 1812 reenactments, we need your guidance in
              > > selecting the
              > > > > most authentic style acceptable for our portrayal to ensure
              that
              > > they will
              > > > > not forever be criticized as not being authentic
              > > >
              > > > I apologize if the following comments show I'm out of my
              depth,
              > > but in fur trade
              > > > portrayals of the same era, we encountered similar problems--
              zero
              > > documentation
              > > > for canteens, but a very real need for some source of water.
              Here
              > > are some
              > > > suggestions for you for improvised containers, rather than
              > > canteens:
              > > > reproduction glass bottles; an extra-large mug (1/2 litre
              size)
              > > with cover; or a
              > > > specially designated wooden pail full of fresh water, that
              period
              > > mugs can be
              > > > filled from with a clean dipper.
              > > >
              > > > Your humble & obedient servant,
              > > > Angela Gottfred
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
              hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the
              fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
              >
              > Unit Contact information for North America:
              > ---------------------------------
              > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
              > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
              >
              > American Forces Unit Listing
              > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ============================================================
              >
            • Lalozon
              From: Sgt. Seufert We also keep several stoneware jugs, one for grog (which Sir Larry can attest) I do so attest! ...Yum!
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 3, 2006
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                From: "Sgt. Seufert" <LCpl_RM@...>

                "We also keep several stoneware jugs, one for grog (which Sir Larry can
                attest)


                I do so attest! ...Yum!
                .........................

                There's a company that is making beer and ale and bottling it in repopped
                18th century bottles ..


                For the Ontario'ians on this group

                The LCBO Liquor Store sells a UK beer that is bottled in a 18th century
                green bottle .



                Yrs.,
                L2

                Fantasy is the last refuge of the Gentleman!
                -Peter Catley-
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