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Re: [WarOf1812] Historical Authenticity? Sailors and Canteens?

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  • Gordon Deans
    Larry, Precisely our dilemma regarding authenticity. After last summer s serious safety problem at Fort George s School of the Sailor involving dehydration, we
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 31, 2006
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      Larry,

      Precisely our dilemma regarding authenticity.

      After last summer's serious safety problem at Fort George's School of the
      Sailor involving dehydration, we must ensure that our Naval gun crews are
      adequately provided with sufficient fresh drinking water on the field, while
      they wait for the battles to begin.

      Nobody wants to see plastic bottles of water anywhere at a reenactment so
      our sailors will have to carry canteens. Given the wide variety of canteens
      that appear at 1812 reenactments, we need your guidance in selecting the
      most authentic style acceptable for our portrayal to ensure that they will
      not forever be criticized as not being authentic.

      It is common sense that somewhere at sometime some sailors were on land
      during the War of 1812 and some of them must have drunk some water from some
      containers. I realize that I am jumping to a conclusion here without proper
      references, but we need to face up to the need and choose a solution.

      I am hopeful that you or Admiral Suthren can provide an acceptable solution.

      Gord Deans

      P.S. We wish that there were some ships for us to go back to.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Lalozon" <lalozon@...>
      To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 11:02 AM
      Subject: [WarOf1812] Historical Authenticity? Pet Peeves?


      > From: "Gordon Deans" <gord.deans@...>
      > "... sailors should be carrying canteens instead of plastic water bottles
      ..."


      > Mr. Suthren, correct me if I am wrong ...
      >
      > Sailors were never issued canteens.
      >
      > Aboard ship they would have no need of them.
      >
      > "Plastic" had not been invented in 1812.
      >
      > Yrs.,
      > L2
    • Lalozon
      From: Gordon Deans gord.deans@sympatico.ca Larry, Precisely our dilemma regarding authenticity. ... Gord Many have emailed me off this WarOf1812 yahoo Group
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 31, 2006
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        From: "Gordon Deans" gord.deans@...


        Larry,

        Precisely our dilemma regarding authenticity. ...






        Gord

        Many have emailed me off this WarOf1812 yahoo Group stating this is a
        personal conversation.


        I will answer your email OFF this Yahoo Group and would appreciate if when
        using my name you do likewise


        Thanking you in advance

        Larry Lozon
      • Angela Gottfred
        Given the wide variety of canteens ... I apologize if the following comments show I m out of my depth, but in fur trade portrayals of the same era, we
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 31, 2006
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          Given the wide variety of canteens
          > that appear at 1812 reenactments, we need your guidance in selecting the
          > most authentic style acceptable for our portrayal to ensure that they will
          > not forever be criticized as not being authentic

          I apologize if the following comments show I'm out of my depth, but in fur trade
          portrayals of the same era, we encountered similar problems--zero documentation
          for canteens, but a very real need for some source of water. Here are some
          suggestions for you for improvised containers, rather than canteens:
          reproduction glass bottles; an extra-large mug (1/2 litre size) with cover; or a
          specially designated wooden pail full of fresh water, that period mugs can be
          filled from with a clean dipper.

          Your humble & obedient servant,
          Angela Gottfred
        • mccombs98
          British Capt. Dobbs cutting out expedition leading up to the Seige of Fort Erie, 1814 would be a fine example of sailors requiring a container to carry water.
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 31, 2006
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            British Capt. Dobbs cutting out expedition leading up to the Seige of
            Fort Erie, 1814 would be a fine example of sailors requiring a
            container to carry water. If canteens were not general issue, I would
            expect a hodge podge of period correct containers being use.
            In the absence of primary source outlining these, just as we would
            assume these sailors wore shoes, they would also require water.
            Murray


            "Gordon Deans" <gord.deans@...> wrote:
            >
            > Larry,
            >
            > Precisely our dilemma regarding authenticity.
            >
            > After last summer's serious safety problem at Fort George's School of the
            > Sailor involving dehydration, we must ensure that our Naval gun crews are
            > adequately provided with sufficient fresh drinking water on the field, while
            > they wait for the battles to begin.
            >
            > Nobody wants to see plastic bottles of water anywhere at a reenactment so
            > our sailors will have to carry canteens. Given the wide variety of canteens
            > that appear at 1812 reenactments, we need your guidance in selecting the
            > most authentic style acceptable for our portrayal to ensure that they will
            > not forever be criticized as not being authentic.
            >
            > It is common sense that somewhere at sometime some sailors were on land
            > during the War of 1812 and some of them must have drunk some water from some
            > containers. I realize that I am jumping to a conclusion here without proper
            > references, but we need to face up to the need and choose a solution.
            >
            > I am hopeful that you or Admiral Suthren can provide an acceptable solution.
            >
            > Gord Deans
            >
            > P.S. We wish that there were some ships for us to go back to.
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Lalozon" <lalozon@...>
            > To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 11:02 AM
            > Subject: [WarOf1812] Historical Authenticity? Pet Peeves?
            >
            >
            > > From: "Gordon Deans" <gord.deans@...>
            > > "... sailors should be carrying canteens instead of plastic water bottles
            > ..."
            >
            >
            > > Mr. Suthren, correct me if I am wrong ...
            > >
            > > Sailors were never issued canteens.
            > >
            > > Aboard ship they would have no need of them.
            > >
            > > "Plastic" had not been invented in 1812.
            > >
            > > Yrs.,
            > > L2
            >
          • Thomas Hurlbut
            Hmm.. I seem to remember reading that the warships on the lakes did not have to carry drinking water (in those days, I suppose it was safe just to dip your mug
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 31, 2006
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              Hmm..

              I seem to remember reading that the warships on the lakes did not have to carry drinking water (in those days, I suppose it was safe just to dip your mug overboard), so it may be that, as long as the sailors were near enough to fresh water, it was expected for them to take their water breaks at the lake, river, etc. In general, due to the normal rationing of sailors' drinking water, they were used to having water only when told.

              For inland operations, they may have been issued with whatever the Marines were given (unless water was carried in bulk!!). Considering that sailors spent many more hours of their lives engaged in operations where salt water was the norm, they simply must have been issued with something when away from the ship.

              I would suggest that sailors use "Marine" stuff or the earlier tin canteens.

              It is interesting to note that "my own" US Infantry group does not use a standard canteen as we don't like the price of the US wooden ones we've found. There goes accuracy for economic reasons!

              Some members of my French group for F&I carry plastic water bottles in little canvas shoulder bags to hide their obviously modern look. At best, I think it's a poor compromise, but the gourd canteens which I am told are proper don't seem to stand up to any kind of shock. I use tin.

              Safety would dictate we carry water in whatever container we can, as long as we carry water.

              Let's just keep the plastic out of sight.

              In looking at the website posted regarding British wooden canteens, I notice that they were issued and in general use from 1793-1861. With the recent postings and facinating information regarding sergeants' tents, I note that the word "skirts" denoting some attachment to the bottoms of the canvas roof of the tent does not seem to retain it's original meaning or at least, can not be proven to do so from the period that we re-enact to the Crimean War when there is documentation. Perhaps those who have spent a great deal of time in military service could offer their opinions on how long the British Army holds on to its terminology, methods and equipment, particularly in times of relative peace (say, 1815-54?).

              Furthermore, in the absence of "proof", maybe conjecture, particularly of the practical kind, is what we should go with.

              Cheers!

              Thomas Hurlbut
              US 25th and
              Provincial Marine


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Allison
              Hmmmm... I have to disagree with the opinion of those who feel this is a personal issue. As another naval reenactor (and there are actually quite a few of us
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 31, 2006
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                Hmmmm... I have to disagree with the opinion of those who feel this
                is a personal issue. As another naval reenactor (and there are
                actually quite a few of us in this Group), the subject under
                discussion is quite pertinent to my impression and that of my unit.
                And this applies equally to other PM/RN reenactment units.

                As someone else pointed out recently, we each have the option of
                disregarding posts which are not of particular interest to us. (I
                will readily admit to doing this frequently when Army equipment and
                uniforms are being discussed.) But this board is designed to
                facilitate communications for ALL reenactors, not just land forces.
                Granted, we also have a Group of our own... but we frequently need
                the input of non-naval reenactors with the requisite historical
                knowledge to get us pointed in the right direction, as in this
                current matter re: canteens. We come to this venue, where we are all
                supposedly welcome, for that purpose, and to socialize with our
                fellow 1812 reenactors of all types. I sincerely hope that this
                spirit will continue.

                YH&OS,
                ~Dale

                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Lalozon" <lalozon@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: "Gordon Deans" gord.deans@...
                >
                >
                > Larry,
                >
                > Precisely our dilemma regarding authenticity. ...
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Gord
                >
                > Many have emailed me off this WarOf1812 yahoo Group stating this is
                a
                > personal conversation.
                >
                >
                > I will answer your email OFF this Yahoo Group and would appreciate
                if when
                > using my name you do likewise
                >
                >
                > Thanking you in advance
                >
                > Larry Lozon
                >
              • Patrick Schifferdecker
                A solution for gun crews would be to have a scuttlebutt, just like aboard ship. Landing parties may need some other alternatives. Canteens?, maybe stoneware
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 31, 2006
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                  A solution for gun crews would be to have a scuttlebutt, just like
                  aboard ship. Landing parties may need some other alternatives.
                  Canteens?, maybe stoneware flasks? or any of Angela's suggestions or
                  even a mixture. Or unit leadship/event organizers needs to include
                  this in planning. I can here it now..."How do we water the navy?"

                  Cheers,
                  Lt. Patrick Schifferdecker
                  Naval Establishment
                  Crown Forces North America

                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Angela Gottfred" <agottfre@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Given the wide variety of canteens
                  > > that appear at 1812 reenactments, we need your guidance in
                  selecting the
                  > > most authentic style acceptable for our portrayal to ensure that
                  they will
                  > > not forever be criticized as not being authentic
                  >
                  > I apologize if the following comments show I'm out of my depth,
                  but in fur trade
                  > portrayals of the same era, we encountered similar problems--zero
                  documentation
                  > for canteens, but a very real need for some source of water. Here
                  are some
                  > suggestions for you for improvised containers, rather than
                  canteens:
                  > reproduction glass bottles; an extra-large mug (1/2 litre size)
                  with cover; or a
                  > specially designated wooden pail full of fresh water, that period
                  mugs can be
                  > filled from with a clean dipper.
                  >
                  > Your humble & obedient servant,
                  > Angela Gottfred
                  >
                • Jim Pierce
                  Patrick, Beer...well that is how the RN would have done it :7] Sincerely though, we do make great compromises in our portrayals to Army PC and site
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 31, 2006
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                    Patrick,

                    Beer...well that is how the RN would have done it :7] Sincerely though, we do make great compromises in our portrayals to "Army PC" and "site management"...who, not incidently have the lips of the army impressions glued to their ears. Don't get me wrong, safety is paramount, but if we want to play "army" in different outfits, we need to rearrange our priorities. The Navy wasn't the army.

                    Personally for events I use a recreated period Gin Bottle to carry water on the field. I've hitched a hemp covering for the bottle to give it some strength. It is beautiful, looks "maritime", and satisfies the site requirements to be "watered" on the field.

                    Fair Winds,

                    Jim Pierce


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Patrick Schifferdecker
                    Exactly right Jim...a gallon a day, by regulation. But as a site manager, I don t think that will fly. ... though, we do make great compromises in our
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 31, 2006
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                      Exactly right Jim...a gallon a day, by regulation. But as a site
                      manager, I don't think that will fly.

                      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Pierce" <highlandpeat@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Patrick,
                      >
                      > Beer...well that is how the RN would have done it :7] Sincerely
                      though, we do make great compromises in our portrayals to "Army PC"
                      and "site management"...who, not incidently have the lips of the
                      army impressions glued to their ears. Don't get me wrong, safety is
                      paramount, but if we want to play "army" in different outfits, we
                      need to rearrange our priorities. The Navy wasn't the army.
                      >
                      > Personally for events I use a recreated period Gin Bottle to carry
                      water on the field. I've hitched a hemp covering for the bottle to
                      give it some strength. It is beautiful, looks "maritime", and
                      satisfies the site requirements to be "watered" on the field.
                      >
                      > Fair Winds,
                      >
                      > Jim Pierce
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • mccombs98
                      A glass or plastic properly shaped bottle wrapped in leather works well for me. The water remains fresh and cool for quite a long time. Murray
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 31, 2006
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                        A glass or plastic properly shaped bottle wrapped in leather works well
                        for me. The water remains fresh and cool for quite a long time.
                        Murray



                        "Patrick Schifferdecker" <boldbritishhero@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > A solution for gun crews would be to have a scuttlebutt, just like
                        > aboard ship. Landing parties may need some other alternatives.
                        > Canteens?, maybe stoneware flasks? or any of Angela's suggestions or
                        > even a mixture. Or unit leadship/event organizers needs to include
                        > this in planning. I can here it now..."How do we water the navy?"
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        > Lt. Patrick Schifferdecker
                        > Naval Establishment
                        > Crown Forces North America
                        >
                        > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Angela Gottfred" <agottfre@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Given the wide variety of canteens
                        > > > that appear at 1812 reenactments, we need your guidance in
                        > selecting the
                        > > > most authentic style acceptable for our portrayal to ensure that
                        > they will
                        > > > not forever be criticized as not being authentic
                        > >
                        > > I apologize if the following comments show I'm out of my depth,
                        > but in fur trade
                        > > portrayals of the same era, we encountered similar problems--zero
                        > documentation
                        > > for canteens, but a very real need for some source of water. Here
                        > are some
                        > > suggestions for you for improvised containers, rather than
                        > canteens:
                        > > reproduction glass bottles; an extra-large mug (1/2 litre size)
                        > with cover; or a
                        > > specially designated wooden pail full of fresh water, that period
                        > mugs can be
                        > > filled from with a clean dipper.
                        > >
                        > > Your humble & obedient servant,
                        > > Angela Gottfred
                        > >
                        >
                      • Jim Pierce
                        Right Patrick :7] I wouldn t want it to fly either. Fair Winds, Jim Pierce [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 31, 2006
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                          Right Patrick :7] I wouldn't want it to fly either.

                          Fair Winds,

                          Jim Pierce


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Peter Monahan
                          I would suggest that a period looking bottle - check an antiques book for proper shape - covered in leather would be both HA enough for all but the thread
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 1, 2006
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                            I would suggest that a period looking bottle - check an antiques book for proper shape - covered in leather would be both HA enough for all but the thread counters, nicve to look at and reasonably durable. Mr. Lazon has/had one I quite liked!

                            I'll even provide the leather and/or labour for anyone interested.

                            Peter monahan
                            ============================================================
                            From: "mccombs98" <macomb@...>
                            Date: 2006/03/31 Fri PM 07:18:09 EST
                            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Historical Authenticity? Sailors and Canteens?

                            A glass or plastic properly shaped bottle wrapped in leather works well
                            for me. The water remains fresh and cool for quite a long time.
                            Murray



                            "Patrick Schifferdecker" <boldbritishhero@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > A solution for gun crews would be to have a scuttlebutt, just like
                            > aboard ship. Landing parties may need some other alternatives.
                            > Canteens?, maybe stoneware flasks? or any of Angela's suggestions or
                            > even a mixture. Or unit leadship/event organizers needs to include
                            > this in planning. I can here it now..."How do we water the navy?"
                            >
                            > Cheers,
                            > Lt. Patrick Schifferdecker
                            > Naval Establishment
                            > Crown Forces North America
                            >
                            > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Angela Gottfred" <agottfre@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Given the wide variety of canteens
                            > > > that appear at 1812 reenactments, we need your guidance in
                            > selecting the
                            > > > most authentic style acceptable for our portrayal to ensure that
                            > they will
                            > > > not forever be criticized as not being authentic
                            > >
                            > > I apologize if the following comments show I'm out of my depth,
                            > but in fur trade
                            > > portrayals of the same era, we encountered similar problems--zero
                            > documentation
                            > > for canteens, but a very real need for some source of water. Here
                            > are some
                            > > suggestions for you for improvised containers, rather than
                            > canteens:
                            > > reproduction glass bottles; an extra-large mug (1/2 litre size)
                            > with cover; or a
                            > > specially designated wooden pail full of fresh water, that period
                            > mugs can be
                            > > filled from with a clean dipper.
                            > >
                            > > Your humble & obedient servant,
                            > > Angela Gottfred
                            > >
                            >






                            The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

                            Unit Contact information for North America:
                            ---------------------------------
                            Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                            http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                            American Forces Unit Listing
                            http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                            Yahoo! Groups Links





                            ============================================================
                          • Dale Kidd
                            ... for proper shape - covered in leather would be both HA enough for all but the thread counters, nicve to look at and reasonably durable. Mr. Lazon has/had
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 2, 2006
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                              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Peter Monahan <petemonahan@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I would suggest that a period looking bottle - check an antiques book
                              for proper shape - covered in leather would be both HA enough for all
                              but the thread counters, nicve to look at and reasonably durable. Mr.
                              Lazon has/had one I quite liked!
                              >
                              > I'll even provide the leather and/or labour for anyone interested.
                              >
                              > Peter monahan


                              Also appropriate to period, I believe, is a bottle wrapped in cord. I
                              carry one of these, although when Allison made mine for me, she took
                              the liberty of gluing the cord down so that it would not always be
                              unwrapping. This also protects you if the bottle get broken... holds it
                              all together. (I am a firm believer that minor modern touches that do
                              not detract from authentic appearance are not only acceptable, but
                              desireable. They make the maintenance of our gear far simpler and less
                              time consuming, which is a neccessity since we are not living in the
                              days when these things were ALL we had to deal with.)

                              I should note that we have several (half-dozen or so) extra of these
                              bottles made up, and available for sale... cheap. (I'm trying to clear
                              out all the extra "stuff" we have lying around.) Anyone wanting one can
                              contact Allison or myself off-list for details, and I'll bring the
                              bottles to Longwoods in May for them.

                              Keep yer powder dry.
                              ~Dale
                            • LCpl_rm
                              Jim/Patrick Been going over my narratives on the Chesapeake campaigns and though I ve found a couple of statements about the sailors of the Naval Battalions
                              Message 14 of 17 , Apr 2, 2006
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                                Jim/Patrick

                                Been going over my narratives on the Chesapeake campaigns and though I've found a couple of statements about the sailors of the Naval Battalions eating biscuit from their haversacks, there's nothing about water. And surely with the heat and humidity down here in the summer, there would have been a need to carry or obtain water.

                                The only mention of canteens comes from Major Wybourn in his diary in April 1813, he relates that he was ordered to gather 80 men and a subaltern for an expedition. Accordingly he "proceeded, armed and provided with everything necessary: canteens; camp kettles & a blanket each man." Major Wybourn was then Captain of the company of Royal Marines aboard the HMS Marlborough and its unclear whether the statement pertains to just his detachment or the entire expedition which consisted of over 150 Marines and 200 Sailors.

                                For ourselves, naturally we carry canteens but for camp, we carry canvas buckets and keep several filled; one at least near the campfire. The advantage of canvas buckets is that they can be easily folded and stored in a small space unlike woodenware. We generally have one of our tinware pots filled with water also. We also keep several stoneware jugs, one for grog (which Sir Larry can attest) and another usually for cinnamon water. We will probably add a third for wine since the alternative for beer and grog in a sailors diet is wine.

                                There's a company that is making beer and ale and bottling it in repopped 18th century bottles of which we have gotten a few.

                                As far as carrying extra water into the field, a couple of ship's boys carry canvas buckets would be more appropriate then camp followers.

                                My two shillings worth,

                                Cheers,

                                Ed Seufert, Cpl
                                1812 Royal Marines
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Jim Pierce
                                To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 7:31 PM
                                Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Re: Historical Authenticity? Sailors and Canteens?


                                Patrick,

                                Beer...well that is how the RN would have done it :7] Sincerely though, we do make great compromises in our portrayals to "Army PC" and "site management"...who, not incidently have the lips of the army impressions glued to their ears. Don't get me wrong, safety is paramount, but if we want to play "army" in different outfits, we need to rearrange our priorities. The Navy wasn't the army.

                                Personally for events I use a recreated period Gin Bottle to carry water on the field. I've hitched a hemp covering for the bottle to give it some strength. It is beautiful, looks "maritime", and satisfies the site requirements to be "watered" on the field.

                                Fair Winds,

                                Jim Pierce


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

                                Unit Contact information for North America:
                                ---------------------------------
                                Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                                American Forces Unit Listing
                                http://usforces1812.tripod.com



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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Patrick Schifferdecker
                                Ed, Please give the citation for sailors and haversacks. Cheers, Patrick ... though I ve found a couple of statements about the sailors of the Naval Battalions
                                Message 15 of 17 , Apr 2, 2006
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                                  Ed,
                                  Please give the citation for sailors and haversacks.

                                  Cheers,
                                  Patrick

                                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "LCpl_rm" <LCpl_RM@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Jim/Patrick
                                  >
                                  > Been going over my narratives on the Chesapeake campaigns and
                                  though I've found a couple of statements about the sailors of the
                                  Naval Battalions eating biscuit from their haversacks, there's
                                  nothing about water. And surely with the heat and humidity down
                                  here in the summer, there would have been a need to carry or obtain
                                  water.
                                  >
                                  > The only mention of canteens comes from Major Wybourn in his diary
                                  in April 1813, he relates that he was ordered to gather 80 men and a
                                  subaltern for an expedition. Accordingly he "proceeded, armed and
                                  provided with everything necessary: canteens; camp kettles & a
                                  blanket each man." Major Wybourn was then Captain of the company of
                                  Royal Marines aboard the HMS Marlborough and its unclear whether the
                                  statement pertains to just his detachment or the entire expedition
                                  which consisted of over 150 Marines and 200 Sailors.
                                  >
                                  > For ourselves, naturally we carry canteens but for camp, we carry
                                  canvas buckets and keep several filled; one at least near the
                                  campfire. The advantage of canvas buckets is that they can be
                                  easily folded and stored in a small space unlike woodenware. We
                                  generally have one of our tinware pots filled with water also. We
                                  also keep several stoneware jugs, one for grog (which Sir Larry can
                                  attest) and another usually for cinnamon water. We will probably
                                  add a third for wine since the alternative for beer and grog in a
                                  sailors diet is wine.
                                  >
                                  > There's a company that is making beer and ale and bottling it in
                                  repopped 18th century bottles of which we have gotten a few.
                                  >
                                  > As far as carrying extra water into the field, a couple of ship's
                                  boys carry canvas buckets would be more appropriate then camp
                                  followers.
                                  >
                                  > My two shillings worth,
                                  >
                                  > Cheers,
                                  >
                                  > Ed Seufert, Cpl
                                  > 1812 Royal Marines
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Jim Pierce
                                  > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 7:31 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Re: Historical Authenticity? Sailors
                                  and Canteens?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Patrick,
                                  >
                                  > Beer...well that is how the RN would have done it :7] Sincerely
                                  though, we do make great compromises in our portrayals to "Army PC"
                                  and "site management"...who, not incidently have the lips of the
                                  army impressions glued to their ears. Don't get me wrong, safety is
                                  paramount, but if we want to play "army" in different outfits, we
                                  need to rearrange our priorities. The Navy wasn't the army.
                                  >
                                  > Personally for events I use a recreated period Gin Bottle to
                                  carry water on the field. I've hitched a hemp covering for the
                                  bottle to give it some strength. It is beautiful, looks "maritime",
                                  and satisfies the site requirements to be "watered" on the field.
                                  >
                                  > Fair Winds,
                                  >
                                  > Jim Pierce
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
                                  hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the
                                  fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
                                  >
                                  > Unit Contact information for North America:
                                  > ---------------------------------
                                  > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                  > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                                  >
                                  > American Forces Unit Listing
                                  > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > SPONSORED LINKS United kingdom Living history War of 1812
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  -----------
                                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  >
                                  > a.. Visit your group "WarOf1812" on the web.
                                  >
                                  > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                                  of Service.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  -----------
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • Patrick Schifferdecker
                                  I would suggest willow as an alternate. I ve found two willow covered bottles associated with the Royal Navy. What I found most interesting was that while they
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Apr 2, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I would suggest willow as an alternate. I've found two willow
                                    covered bottles associated with the Royal Navy. What I found most
                                    interesting was that while they had many similarities they are
                                    separated by 250-300 years.
                                    Cheers,
                                    Patrick

                                    --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Peter Monahan <petemonahan@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I would suggest that a period looking bottle - check an antiques
                                    book for proper shape - covered in leather would be both HA enough
                                    for all but the thread counters, nicve to look at and reasonably
                                    durable. Mr. Lazon has/had one I quite liked!
                                    >
                                    > I'll even provide the leather and/or labour for anyone interested.
                                    >
                                    > Peter monahan
                                    > ============================================================
                                    > From: "mccombs98" <macomb@...>
                                    > Date: 2006/03/31 Fri PM 07:18:09 EST
                                    > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Historical Authenticity? Sailors and
                                    Canteens?
                                    >
                                    > A glass or plastic properly shaped bottle wrapped in leather works
                                    well
                                    > for me. The water remains fresh and cool for quite a long time.
                                    > Murray
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > "Patrick Schifferdecker" <boldbritishhero@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > A solution for gun crews would be to have a scuttlebutt, just
                                    like
                                    > > aboard ship. Landing parties may need some other alternatives.
                                    > > Canteens?, maybe stoneware flasks? or any of Angela's
                                    suggestions or
                                    > > even a mixture. Or unit leadship/event organizers needs to
                                    include
                                    > > this in planning. I can here it now..."How do we water the navy?"
                                    > >
                                    > > Cheers,
                                    > > Lt. Patrick Schifferdecker
                                    > > Naval Establishment
                                    > > Crown Forces North America
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Angela Gottfred" <agottfre@>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Given the wide variety of canteens
                                    > > > > that appear at 1812 reenactments, we need your guidance in
                                    > > selecting the
                                    > > > > most authentic style acceptable for our portrayal to ensure
                                    that
                                    > > they will
                                    > > > > not forever be criticized as not being authentic
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I apologize if the following comments show I'm out of my
                                    depth,
                                    > > but in fur trade
                                    > > > portrayals of the same era, we encountered similar problems--
                                    zero
                                    > > documentation
                                    > > > for canteens, but a very real need for some source of water.
                                    Here
                                    > > are some
                                    > > > suggestions for you for improvised containers, rather than
                                    > > canteens:
                                    > > > reproduction glass bottles; an extra-large mug (1/2 litre
                                    size)
                                    > > with cover; or a
                                    > > > specially designated wooden pail full of fresh water, that
                                    period
                                    > > mugs can be
                                    > > > filled from with a clean dipper.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Your humble & obedient servant,
                                    > > > Angela Gottfred
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
                                    hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the
                                    fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
                                    >
                                    > Unit Contact information for North America:
                                    > ---------------------------------
                                    > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                    > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                                    >
                                    > American Forces Unit Listing
                                    > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ============================================================
                                    >
                                  • Lalozon
                                    From: Sgt. Seufert We also keep several stoneware jugs, one for grog (which Sir Larry can attest) I do so attest! ...Yum!
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Apr 3, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      From: "Sgt. Seufert" <LCpl_RM@...>

                                      "We also keep several stoneware jugs, one for grog (which Sir Larry can
                                      attest)


                                      I do so attest! ...Yum!
                                      .........................

                                      There's a company that is making beer and ale and bottling it in repopped
                                      18th century bottles ..


                                      For the Ontario'ians on this group

                                      The LCBO Liquor Store sells a UK beer that is bottled in a 18th century
                                      green bottle .



                                      Yrs.,
                                      L2

                                      Fantasy is the last refuge of the Gentleman!
                                      -Peter Catley-
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