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TECUMSEH'S Totem (signature)

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  • mccombs98
    Has anyone come across Tecumseh s totem on either treaty or documents that is attributable to Tecumseh? The Potawattami (sp?) Deed of 1776 for the sale of
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 2, 2006
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      Has anyone come across Tecumseh's totem on either treaty or documents
      that is attributable to Tecumseh?
      The Potawattami (sp?) Deed of 1776 for the sale of Grosse Ile in the
      Detroit River is reputed to have a Totem signature of Tecumseh (eagle).
      He would only be about eight years old at this time. Would it be
      considered feasible that he could sign a land sale document at this
      age?
      Murray
    • Peter Monahan
      Murray If Tecumseh had a totem it would almost certainly have been the totem of the Panther clan of the Shawnee, of which he was a member. (Hence his name: a
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 2, 2006
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        Murray

        If Tecumseh had a totem it would almost certainly have been the totem of the Panther clan of the Shawnee, of which he was a member. (Hence his name: a "Panther Crossing the Sky" is one common translation of it and he had a sister who also had "Panther" in her name.)

        Perhaps Wolf knows?

        Peter
        ============================================================
        From: "mccombs98" <macomb@...>
        Date: 2006/02/02 Thu AM 09:09:21 EST
        To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [WarOf1812] TECUMSEH'S Totem (signature)

        Has anyone come across Tecumseh's totem on either treaty or documents
        that is attributable to Tecumseh?
        The Potawattami (sp?) Deed of 1776 for the sale of Grosse Ile in the
        Detroit River is reputed to have a Totem signature of Tecumseh (eagle).
        He would only be about eight years old at this time. Would it be
        considered feasible that he could sign a land sale document at this
        age?
        Murray






        The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

        Unit Contact information for North America:
        ---------------------------------
        Crown Forces Unit Listing:
        http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

        American Forces Unit Listing
        http://usforces1812.tripod.com
        Yahoo! Groups Links





        ============================================================
      • yawors1@uwindsor.ca
        As Murray suspects himself, you would have to wonder why an 8 year old Shawnee boy living on Shawnee lands in central Ohio would be signing a deed whereby the
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 2, 2006
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          As Murray suspects himself, you would have to wonder why an 8 year old
          Shawnee boy living on Shawnee lands in central Ohio would be signing a
          deed whereby the Potawatomi tribe is ceding an island in the Detroit
          River, hundreds of miles away. Sounds like baloney to me.

          Jim Yaworsky
          41st





          Peter Monahan <petemonahan@...>
          Sent by: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
          02/02/2006 03:01 PM
          Please respond to
          WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com


          To
          <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
          cc

          Subject
          Re: [WarOf1812] TECUMSEH'S Totem (signature)






          Murray

          If Tecumseh had a totem it would almost certainly have been the totem of
          the Panther clan of the Shawnee, of which he was a member. (Hence his
          name: a "Panther Crossing the Sky" is one common translation of it and he
          had a sister who also had "Panther" in her name.)

          Perhaps Wolf knows?

          Peter
          ============================================================
          From: "mccombs98" <macomb@...>
          Date: 2006/02/02 Thu AM 09:09:21 EST
          To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [WarOf1812] TECUMSEH'S Totem (signature)

          Has anyone come across Tecumseh's totem on either treaty or documents
          that is attributable to Tecumseh?
          The Potawattami (sp?) Deed of 1776 for the sale of Grosse Ile in the
          Detroit River is reputed to have a Totem signature of Tecumseh (eagle).
          He would only be about eight years old at this time. Would it be
          considered feasible that he could sign a land sale document at this
          age?
          Murray






          The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
          square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS
          of square miles...

          Unit Contact information for North America:
          ---------------------------------
          Crown Forces Unit Listing:
          http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

          American Forces Unit Listing
          http://usforces1812.tripod.com
          Yahoo! Groups Links





          ============================================================





          The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
          square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS
          of square miles...

          Unit Contact information for North America:
          ---------------------------------
          Crown Forces Unit Listing:
          http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

          American Forces Unit Listing
          http://usforces1812.tripod.com



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Craig Williams
          Perhaps age was not an issue as it is today? Craig
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 2, 2006
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            Perhaps age was not an issue as it is today?

            Craig
            On 2-Feb-06, at 3:17 PM, yawors1@... wrote:

            > As Murray suspects himself, you would have to wonder why an 8 year old
            > Shawnee boy living on Shawnee lands in central Ohio would be signing a
            > deed whereby the Potawatomi tribe is ceding an island in the Detroit
            > River, hundreds of miles away. Sounds like baloney to me.
            >
            > Jim Yaworsky
            > 41st
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Peter Monahan <petemonahan@...>
            > Sent by: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            > 02/02/2006 03:01 PM
            > Please respond to
            > WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            > To
            > <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
            > cc
            >
            > Subject
            > Re: [WarOf1812] TECUMSEH'S Totem (signature)
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Murray
            >
            > If Tecumseh had a totem it would almost certainly have been the
            > totem of
            > the Panther clan of the Shawnee, of which he was a member. (Hence his
            > name: a "Panther Crossing the Sky" is one common translation of it
            > and he
            > had a sister who also had "Panther" in her name.)
            >
            > Perhaps Wolf knows?
            >
            > Peter
            > ============================================================
            > From: "mccombs98" <macomb@...>
            > Date: 2006/02/02 Thu AM 09:09:21 EST
            > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [WarOf1812] TECUMSEH'S Totem (signature)
            >
            > Has anyone come across Tecumseh's totem on either treaty or documents
            > that is attributable to Tecumseh?
            > The Potawattami (sp?) Deed of 1776 for the sale of Grosse Ile in the
            > Detroit River is reputed to have a Totem signature of Tecumseh
            > (eagle).
            > He would only be about eight years old at this time. Would it be
            > considered feasible that he could sign a land sale document at this
            > age?
            > Murray
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
            > hundreds of
            > square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
            > THOUSANDS
            > of square miles...
            >
            > Unit Contact information for North America:
            > ---------------------------------
            > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
            > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
            >
            > American Forces Unit Listing
            > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ============================================================
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
            > hundreds of
            > square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
            > THOUSANDS
            > of square miles...
            >
            > Unit Contact information for North America:
            > ---------------------------------
            > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
            > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
            >
            > American Forces Unit Listing
            > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
            >
            >
            >
            > SPONSORED LINKS
            > United kingdom
            > Living history
            > United state history
            > War of 1812
            >
            >
            >
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >
            > Visit your group "WarOf1812" on the web.
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
            > hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the
            > fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
            >
            > Unit Contact information for North America:
            > ---------------------------------
            > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
            > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
            >
            > American Forces Unit Listing
            > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • wolf_bna
            ... of the Panther clan of the Shawnee, of which he was a member. (Hence his name: a Panther Crossing the Sky is one common translation of it and he had a
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 2, 2006
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              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Peter Monahan <petemonahan@...> wrote:
              >
              > Murray
              >
              > If Tecumseh had a totem it would almost certainly have been the totem
              of the Panther clan of the Shawnee, of which he was a member. (Hence
              his name: a "Panther Crossing the Sky" is one common translation of it
              and he had a sister who also had "Panther" in her name.)
              >
              > Perhaps Wolf knows?
              >
              > Peter

              Again I answer not on behalf of the Shawnee but with what I have been
              told by them. Tecumseh's clan was Panther. He never signed any treaty
              as his father had instructed him not to.

              If I can get a hold of the person's e-mail address I can pass it on to
              both the East of the river Shawnee and the Shawnee United Remnant
              Nations of Ohio.
            • Peter Monahan
              But as been has been pointed out, Tecumseh was never a recognized Shawnee chief, and it was chiefs who normally signed treaties and land deals. And 8 seems a
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 2, 2006
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                But as been has been pointed out, Tecumseh was never a recognized Shawnee chief, and it was chiefs who normally signed treaties and land deals.

                And 8 seems a bit precocious even in an age when 14 & 16 year olds became officers and soldiers.

                PM
                ============================================================
                From: Craig Williams <sgtwarner@...>


                Perhaps age was not an issue as it is today?
              • mccombs98
                I ve uploaded two pictures in the photos section in a folder called Potawatomi Deed. These are the totems illustrated, however the author hadn t illustrated
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 3, 2006
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                  I've uploaded two pictures in the photos section in a folder called
                  Potawatomi Deed. These are the totems illustrated, however the author
                  hadn't illustrated the proposed Tecumseh totem.

                  The Potawatomi Deed

                  ref: The Deep Roots, by Isabella Swan, 1976, LCCCN: 76-21415, published
                  by The Grosse Ile Historical Society.

                  The Macomb acquire Grosse Ile

                  On July 6, 1776, Alexander and William Macomb (srs) negotiated with the
                  Potawatomi Indians of Detroit and obtained from them a deed to Grosse
                  Ile, the island they called "Kitchiminishen". In making the purchase,
                  the Macomb brothers contravened British regulations. All negotiations
                  with Indian tribes had to be conducted by the Crown.

                  The deed transferring ownership was inscribed in acid ink on a skin
                  parchment, irregular in shape, measuring twenty-five inches across and
                  thirty-one inches top to bottom. Below the text each one of the
                  eighteen Potawatomi "Chiefs and Principal Leaders" drew his totem, also
                  in ink. Opposite each totem, or line drawing, a brownish-red wafer of
                  sealing wax was placed, whereon each Indian pressed his thumb. A bit of
                  fine paper was then affixed over the wafer. Beside each totem the name
                  of the Indian was written in. All this was done in the presence of
                  Isidore Chene and Pierre St. Cosme, both of whom signed with
                  flourishes.

                  That same year, 1776, Lieutenant Governor Henry Hamilton granted
                  William Macomb permission to occupy the island. Thus, at least
                  ostensibly, Macomb ownership of Grosse Ile began two days after the
                  signing of the Declaration of Independence.

                  In 1780 the original deed was acknowledged as a "voluntary act of the
                  chiefs of the Pottawatome Nation" before Arent Schuyler De Peyster,
                  newly appointed to command at Detroit.

                  Since 1953 the original parchment has been a prized possession of the
                  Burton Historical Collection, Detroit Public Library, having been
                  presented to the library by a Macomb descendant. A copy of the quasi-
                  legal instrument executed on rag paper at the time of the transaction
                  and bearing the 1780 acknowledgement, was registered in the Wayne
                  County (Michigan) Land Records in 1819. It is preserved in the Register
                  of Deeds Office, City-County Building, Detroit.

                  Between these two documents - the original deed and the registered copy
                  - there is one conspicuous difference. A crude drawing, said to
                  represent an eagle, appears in the lower right corner of the handsome
                  original parchment; it is not to be found on the copy filed with the
                  register of deeds. Some Macomb descendants make much of that totem,
                  claiming it is the first "presentment" of the American Eagle. They also
                  claim the "Tecumseh - the great Indian chieftain - signed his totem on
                  the old deed." (MPHC. XXXV, 571-72)

                  Your most humble Serv't
                  Murray McCombs
                • wolf_bna
                  ... copy ... also ... on ... Although interesting it is extremely unlikely that Tecumseh would have placed his mark on the document. The main reason is due to
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 3, 2006
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                    --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "mccombs98" <macomb@...> wrote:

                    > Between these two documents - the original deed and the registered
                    copy
                    > - there is one conspicuous difference. A crude drawing, said to
                    > represent an eagle, appears in the lower right corner of the handsome
                    > original parchment; it is not to be found on the copy filed with the
                    > register of deeds. Some Macomb descendants make much of that totem,
                    > claiming it is the first "presentment" of the American Eagle. They
                    also
                    > claim the "Tecumseh - the great Indian chieftain - signed his totem
                    on
                    > the old deed." (MPHC. XXXV, 571-72)
                    >
                    > Your most humble Serv't
                    > Murray McCombs
                    >

                    Although interesting it is extremely unlikely that Tecumseh would have
                    placed his mark on the document.

                    The main reason is due to the fact that it is a Potawatomi Treaty.
                    Under Tribal Protocol Tecumseh being Shawnee would not have been
                    permitted to make his mark. He was also Panther Clan and therefore
                    his "totem" was not an eagle.
                  • mccombs98
                    Thanks Wolfe, Peter and others. The story seemed implausible to me, and you ve given me a more reasoned explaination why. I posted the description of the
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 3, 2006
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                      Thanks Wolfe, Peter and others.

                      The story seemed implausible to me, and you've given me a more reasoned
                      explaination why.

                      I posted the description of the "deed" as I also thought a signatory
                      wouldn't place his totem in the corner.

                      This original deed sure travelled alot.

                      After William Macomb's (sr) death in 1796, it's beleived to have been
                      held in trust by Angus Macintosh who most probably sent it to Solomon
                      Sibley (family lawyer) for safe keeping at Detroit. After William's
                      first sons died; John (1815), William jr.(1826), it passed to David
                      Betton Macomb who moved to Florida. He died in Texas in 1835 (Lt Col in
                      Sam Houston's army) and the deed passed to his young son David Betton
                      Macomb jr, but the deed had been sent back to Ex-Gov Worthington
                      (father in law) in Ohio, where David jr later found it in storage in
                      1902. David Betton jr took it back to New York City and kept it at his
                      home. His daughter Margaret Adelaide (Macomb) Bull presented it to the
                      Burton Historical Collection, Detroit Public Library , in 1953.

                      It has now been placed in a vault to protect it from further decline.
                      Regards
                      Murray


                      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "wolf_bna" <britishnativeallies@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "mccombs98" <macomb@> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Between these two documents - the original deed and the registered
                      > copy
                      > > - there is one conspicuous difference. A crude drawing, said to
                      > > represent an eagle, appears in the lower right corner of the handsome
                      > > original parchment; it is not to be found on the copy filed with the
                      > > register of deeds. Some Macomb descendants make much of that totem,
                      > > claiming it is the first "presentment" of the American Eagle. They
                      > also
                      > > claim the "Tecumseh - the great Indian chieftain - signed his totem
                      > on
                      > > the old deed." (MPHC. XXXV, 571-72)
                      > >
                      > > Your most humble Serv't
                      > > Murray McCombs
                      > >
                      >
                      > Although interesting it is extremely unlikely that Tecumseh would have
                      > placed his mark on the document.
                      >
                      > The main reason is due to the fact that it is a Potawatomi Treaty.
                      > Under Tribal Protocol Tecumseh being Shawnee would not have been
                      > permitted to make his mark. He was also Panther Clan and therefore
                      > his "totem" was not an eagle.
                      >
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