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Re: [WarOf1812] Bellydance

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  • PEGGY Mathews
    And let us not forget the influence of those coming from or going to India. Exotic/erotic dance was imported from there, though not necessarily for polite
    Message 1 of 29 , May 2 1:49 PM
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      And let us not forget the influence of those coming from or going to India.
      Exotic/erotic dance was imported from there, though not necessarily for
      "polite" society. I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from Vanity
      Fair as an example. ;-) Been too long since I read the book, but the movie
      certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.

      Michael Mathews



      "The opportunity for brotherhood presents itself every time you meet a human
      being." - Jane Wyman




      >From: <suthren@...>
      >Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
      >To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
      >Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Bellydance
      >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:13:29 -0400
      >
      >Dear Angela
      >
      >With respect to prudishness in the neoclassical era, I think if anything it
      >was a far more libertine era than the stifling Victorian era which
      >followed,
      >in which grandparents who had lived much more freely (in relative terms) in
      >the Revolutionary/Napoleonic/Regency era were forced to live with a sense
      >of
      >nostalgia and enforced guilt amidst far more restrained, prudish and
      >inhibited children and grandchildren. You might recall it was as well the
      >era of Emma Hamilton and her 'attitudes' in thin Grecian drapery, and the
      >charming Empire gowns that shocked later Victorians with their revealing
      >styles. As mentioned, your persona could likely be either a
      >Turkish/Levantine woman attached to a musician, or indeed a European woman
      >having involuntarily experienced Middle Eastern culture; either way, I
      >would
      >think it would be a charming addition to the encampments, adding grace and
      >a
      >touch of the color and romance which always has been part of our
      >Napoleonic,
      >recreated world....
      >
      >Vic Suthren
      >----- Original Message -----
      >From: "Angela" <deedle_momof3@...>
      >To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
      >Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:18 PM
      >Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance
      >
      >
      > > That was one of my first concerns, Angela - an one I'd like to learn
      >more
      >about.
      > >
      > > Costuming can be made as demure as entire coverage from collar bone to
      >ankle, or even just the eyes, hands and feet exposed; dance styles vary
      >from
      >sensuous to energetic and geared towards all members of the family.
      > >
      > > I'd really love to check out some resources if available on the subject.
      >If bellydance would be appropriate - in which form? Where? When? What style
      >of costuming, exactly? I could make educated assumptions on the topic, but
      >I'd really rather not assume.
      > >
      > > I guess I'm thinking that if it was appropriate in the Cavalier period
      >(let's remember those Victorian era "prudes")!... it'd make sense that it
      >"may" be suitable to our re-enactments in some form or another as well.
      > >
      > > Where to start! I haven't a clue...
      > >
      > > Cheers,
      > > Angela Bourbonnais
      > >
      (snip)
    • ray hobbs
      I ll throw my two cents worth in here. This for a couple of reasons, [1] as an historian and [2] as the father of a daughter who takes bellydancing lessons.
      Message 2 of 29 , May 2 2:15 PM
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        I'll throw my two cents' worth in here. This for a couple of reasons,
        [1] as an historian and [2] as the father of a daughter who takes
        bellydancing lessons. She has no intention of performing it, but what
        she has learned has dispelled some of the mythology of the craft.

        First - it is quite possible, even probable that in the Regency period
        oriental dancing became popular in places like Vauxhall Gardens. As
        several have already pointed out, things "Turkish", or "Mohammetan"
        were very popular at this time. There is even a famous print of two
        "Mohammetans" visiting Vauxhall Gardens in the late 18th century, but
        as visitors, not performers.
        Second - equally as probable is that this art was exploited by the
        clubs and gangs of "Young Turks" (note the epithet) which were
        sprinkled throughout the London and Brighton society of the day.
        Third - whether there was public display in military encampments is
        another matter. Looking at the schedule for the day of the average
        British encamped soldier, I think it highly unlikely that such things
        would be allowed, even by the most liberal-minded commanding officer
        (and they were few!)
        Fourth - as for the officers' mess, as the popular saying has it "What
        happens there, stays there". However, I have read a few first-hand
        descriptions of mess antics, and they seem to me to be rather boring.
        The cost of having such entertainment would probably be prohibitive.
        After all, how many such dancers would there be in Canada, or the US at
        the time?
        Fifth - I have every support for someone who wants to explore all
        aspects of Regency society as an aid to improving our impression. The
        more research the better. However, I have the sneaking feeling that at
        the current state of our knowledge this falls into the category of "If
        it was available, they'd have done it".
        Sixth - Military encampments and barracks were not town fairs.
        Seventh - now whether the Methodists of Ancaster or Saltfleet engaged
        in such entertainment is another matter. After all, they did distill
        some of the best whisky in the Province :-) Come to think of it, Isaac
        Brock thought that Methodist preaching was a "threat to public order
        and safety", Lord knows what he would have thought of belly-dancers.
        Yrs etc.
        Ray Hobbs
        41st Regt.


        On Monday, May 2, 2005, at 04:49 PM, PEGGY Mathews wrote:

        > And let us not forget the influence of those coming from or going to
        > India.�
        > Exotic/erotic dance was imported from there, though not necessarily for
        > "polite" society.� I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from
        > Vanity
        > Fair as an example.� ;-)� Been too long since I read the book, but the
        > movie
        > certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.
        >
        > Michael Mathews
        >
        >
        >
        > "The opportunity for brotherhood presents itself every time you meet a
        > human
        > being." - Jane Wyman
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > >From: <suthren@...>
        > >Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
        > >To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
        > >Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Bellydance
        > >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:13:29 -0400
        > >
        > >Dear Angela
        > >
        > >With respect to prudishness in the neoclassical era, I think if
        > anything it
        > >was a far more libertine era than the stifling Victorian era which
        > >followed,
        > >in which grandparents who had lived much more freely (in relative
        > terms) in
        > >the Revolutionary/Napoleonic/Regency era were forced to live with a
        > sense
        > >of
        > >nostalgia and enforced guilt amidst far more restrained, prudish and
        > >inhibited children and grandchildren. You might recall it was as well
        > the
        > >era of Emma Hamilton and her 'attitudes' in thin Grecian drapery, and
        > the
        > >charming Empire gowns that shocked later Victorians with their
        > revealing
        > >styles. As mentioned, your persona could likely be either a
        > >Turkish/Levantine woman attached to a musician, or indeed a European
        > woman
        > >having involuntarily experienced Middle Eastern culture; either way, I
        > >would
        > >think it would be a charming addition to the encampments, adding
        > grace and
        > >a
        > >touch of the color and romance which always has been part of our
        > >Napoleonic,
        > >recreated world....
        > >
        > >Vic Suthren
        > >----- Original Message -----
        > >From: "Angela" <deedle_momof3@...>
        > >To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
        > >Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:18 PM
        > >Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance
        > >
        > >
        > > > That was one of my first concerns, Angela - an one I'd like to
        > learn
        > >more
        > >about.
        > > >
        > > > Costuming can be made as demure as entire coverage from collar
        > bone to
        > >ankle, or even just the eyes, hands and feet exposed; dance styles
        > vary
        > >from
        > >sensuous to energetic and geared towards all members of the family.
        > > >
        > > > I'd really love to check out some resources if available on the
        > subject.
        > >If bellydance would be appropriate - in which form? Where? When? What
        > style
        > >of costuming, exactly? I could make educated assumptions on the
        > topic, but
        > >I'd really rather not assume.
        > > >
        > > > I guess I'm thinking that if it was appropriate in the Cavalier
        > period
        > >(let's remember those Victorian era "prudes")!... it'd make sense
        > that it
        > >"may" be suitable to our re-enactments in some form or another as
        > well.
        > > >
        > > > Where to start! I haven't a clue...
        > > >
        > > > Cheers,
        > > > Angela Bourbonnais
        > > >
        > (snip)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
        > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
        > THOUSANDS of square miles...
        >
        > Unit Contact information for North America:
        > �� ---------------------------------
        > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
        > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
        >
        > American Forces Unit Lisiting
        > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
        >
        >
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        >
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      • BritcomHMP@aol.com
        ... I would imagine that cinematic representation would be about a accurate as the military bits of that opus Mike! Cheers Tim Timothy Pickles 1100 Rue
        Message 3 of 29 , May 2 3:08 PM
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          In a message dated 5/2/05 3:50:44 PM, ciefranche21e@... writes:


          > I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from Vanity
          > Fair as an example.  ;-)  Been too long since I read the book, but the movie
          > certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.
          >

          I would imagine that cinematic representation would be about a accurate as
          the military bits of that opus Mike!

          Cheers

          Tim


          Timothy Pickles
          1100 Rue Chartres
          New Orleans
          Louisiana 70116
          Tel & Fax: 504 522 4822
          Mobile: 504 236 7130



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Angela
          There we have it... Thank you, Mike! Bellydance is the world s oldest known documented dance form. The fact that it s been tainted as a means of erotic
          Message 4 of 29 , May 2 4:15 PM
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            There we have it...
            Thank you, Mike!


            Bellydance is the world's oldest known documented dance form. The fact that it's been tainted as a means of erotic entertainment for men is the responsibility of Westernized society. The dance was once used to pantomime the sowing and harvesting of crops, to bless and heal, expel demons, to worship deities, to prepare for childbirth and womanhood, and as most of you have come to know it - for secular entertainment.

            Nobody knows where it originated, but ancient forms of bellydance have been traced to India, Egypt, Turkey, Tunisia, Hungary, Russia, China, Africa, the Caucasus Mountains, Eastern Europe, Russia, Western Europe and Spain. (I'm probably leaving some out here)!

            For years (B.C.), it's been customary for bellydancers to entertain family at weddings in the Middle East. A dancer would wear a candelbra on her head to light the way for the wedding party (no streetlights then). Family members would (and still do) get up and dance with the dancer. Middle Eastern men bellydance nearly as often as women. (In their masculine version).

            As a mother of three young children, I assure you that my goal here is not erotic entertainment for the men among us. What I wonder, is that whether or not an ancient artform such as bellydance could have been found in millitary encampments of the 1812 period in Upper Canada. I almost wonder how such an ancient dance from so many corners of the world could not have found a place.

            Would it have been shunned as something entirely inappropriate? There's no secret that Western society was (and still is) uncomfortable with sensuality. It's unfortunate that so many have a hard time distinguishing feminine sensuality from overt sexuality - but that's a battle I've grown accustomed to defending.

            Would it have been possible for a (dancing) woman of any stature to be traveling with the millitary for any reason? If so, how? Would such a thing be frowned upon? Why? I'm interested in your opinions, I truly am. But where can I find some accurate details on the subject? Anybody?


            Respectfully,

            Angela Bourbonnais



            BritcomHMP@... wrote:

            In a message dated 5/2/05 3:50:44 PM, ciefranche21e@... writes:


            > I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from Vanity
            > Fair as an example. ;-) Been too long since I read the book, but the movie
            > certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.
            >

            I would imagine that cinematic representation would be about a accurate as
            the military bits of that opus Mike!

            Cheers

            Tim


            Timothy Pickles
            1100 Rue Chartres
            New Orleans
            Louisiana 70116
            Tel & Fax: 504 522 4822
            Mobile: 504 236 7130



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

            Unit Contact information for North America:
            ---------------------------------
            Crown Forces Unit Listing:
            http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

            American Forces Unit Lisiting
            http://usforces1812.tripod.com



            ---------------------------------
            Yahoo! Groups Links

            To visit your group on the web, go to:
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          • Phil Graf
            My advice on the matter would would be to emphasize researching what was, before resorting to what could have been. Just because something may have been
            Message 5 of 29 , May 2 4:23 PM
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              My advice on the matter would would be to emphasize researching what was, before resorting to what could have been. Just because something may have been possible does not mean it was actually done.

              Phil G.
              Fifth - I have every support for someone who wants to explore all
              aspects of Regency society as an aid to improving our impression. The
              more research the better. However, I have the sneaking feeling that at
              the current state of our knowledge this falls into the category of "If
              it was available, they'd have done it".

              Yrs etc.
              Ray Hobbs
              41st Regt.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • mccombs98
              Angela, A can t comment on bellydancing in Upper Canada, but let s look a little closer. I have reference to an Anglican Minister from York visiting the
              Message 6 of 29 , May 2 4:50 PM
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                Angela,
                A can't comment on "bellydancing" in Upper Canada, but let's look a
                little closer.
                I have reference to an Anglican Minister from York visiting the Detroit
                region in 1793 where he observed MPP William McComb dancing pagan
                dances with the natives. His letter expresses outrage at the sight
                (little would he know that this was the annual Fete of the early
                NWCo.). The Macomb and Edgars of Detroit were invested in the China
                Trade by 1788, so the question to ponder is whether they brought back
                any visiting foreign "dignataries" and/or entourage?
                Considering that the Anglican Church was the only sanctioned and
                official church in Upper Canada at that time, a phantom "bellydancer"
                would most definately not meet with approval in the community at large.
                However having said that, someone else has commented that it was the
                Victorian age that brought us the common perception of English
                prudishness. The Regency period was full of rogues, drinking, and
                experiencing the good life and all the wonderous discoveries the world
                had to offer. To the adventurous soul, this was akin to a scientific
                experiment.
                Just a thought.
                Murray.


                >
                > Would it have been shunned as something entirely inappropriate? There's no secret that Western society was (and still is) uncomfortable with sensuality. It's unfortunate that so many have a hard time distinguishing feminine sensuality from overt sexuality - but that's a battle I've grown accustomed to defending.
              • elisabeth687
                ... be traveling with the millitary for any reason? If so, how? Would such a thing be frowned upon? Why? I m interested in your opinions, I truly am. But where
                Message 7 of 29 , May 2 5:45 PM
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                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Angela <deedle_momof3@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Would it have been possible for a (dancing) woman of any stature to
                  be traveling with the millitary for any reason? If so, how? Would such
                  a thing be frowned upon? Why? I'm interested in your opinions, I truly
                  am. But where can I find some accurate details on the subject? Anybody?

                  Emma Hamilton has been mentioned, as a woman performing what might
                  have been considered inappropriate "Attitudes" in private for her
                  husband and his guests. Another wife might have Turkish dance talents;
                  I doubt a wife connected with the military would perform publicly,
                  although if her husband was dead, she might need a source of income.

                  For your earlier query about clothing: I did look into late 18th
                  century Turkish costume some years ago and have been trying to
                  remember what I found with only mediocre success. Folkwear
                  (www.folkwear.com) has two patterns that look like reasonable starting
                  points and both have received good reviews on The Great Pattern Review
                  at gbacg.org: Turkish Dancer (108) includes the entari and a vest and
                  short jacket and Sarouelles (119) has shalwar trousers. I don't know
                  where you'd find a pattern for the shift but you might be able to fake
                  it, given a decent description--try for a quote of Lady Mary Wortley
                  Montagu's comments on her Turkish clothing; it's quite detailed,
                  although it's a century too early. There is a chapter on fancy dress
                  including oriental costume in Aileen Ribeiro's The Art of Dress:
                  Fashion in England and France, 1750-1820 which reproduces several
                  paintings of rich ladies in Turkish-inspired costume. There is also a
                  very well-illustrated book called Historical Costume of Turkish Women
                  (Nisantasi, Istanbul: Middle East Video Corp., 1986) that you might be
                  able to get through ILL. I don't think any of the costumes therein
                  date back to 1812, but you might be able to use it for ideas and
                  confirm with research. I know I've seen other books on historic Middle
                  Eastern costume, but it's been a few years and I'm having trouble
                  finding specific titles. I see several perfect books in Library of
                  Congress' catalog, if you live close to DC, but as they have
                  publication dates of 1819 and 1820 I doubt LC would send them anywhere
                  (you can try going to catalog.loc.gov and searching by call number at
                  GT1370 and following to see books on Middle Eastern costume or
                  searching subject headings to get an idea of what has been available
                  in this or other areas of interest).

                  --Amy C.
                • Len Heidebrecht
                  Hello Angela, I have a few thoughts to add here. ... bellydance. Yes, it is quite a distance off. ... Neither the Dark Ages Society, nor Regia Angoreum have
                  Message 8 of 29 , May 2 5:55 PM
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                    Hello Angela, I have a few thoughts to add here.

                    > I have an off the beaten path question here about bellydance. Yes,
                    bellydance.

                    Yes, it is quite a distance off.

                    > Last year I was asked to take part in a medieval re-enactment.

                    Neither the Dark Ages Society, nor Regia Angoreum have such a style
                    of dance, so this must have been the Society for Creative
                    Anachronism.

                    >During that event, there were some bellydancers performing and I
                    was awestruck and taken with the artform immediately!

                    Fantastic. As a dancer myself, I'm always pleased to see someone
                    discovering new forms of the art and the ability to express oneself;
                    though how anyone over the age of six has not ever been subjected to
                    bellydance in some form, is beyond me.

                    > This last year I've been recruited by two local professional
                    troupes and am now performing in restaurants and theatre events.

                    I wish you well in your chosen profession.

                    >Therefore, I'm calling upon anyone who is versed on bellydance in
                    its original form and has appropriate resources for me to research
                    the topic.

                    There are a number of professional researchers on this list who
                    would (for a given and oft quoted hourly fee) spend a great deal of
                    time looking for this information.

                    > I have been trying to find whether or not bellydance would be
                    suitable to the 1812 period, but can't find any information.

                    There is, to my mind at least one possible reason for this.

                    >I realize it's not typical, but it is authentic?

                    No, I am certain that it is not a typical form of entertainment to
                    be found in a reputable camp. I'm sure someone would have mentioned
                    it, Lt John le Couteur being the most likely.

                    >I mean, would there be any possibility that there'd have been a
                    woman or her ancestors who may have traveled to the Middle East or
                    Latin America?

                    Having been in a state of war for almost a generation it is
                    suprising how well travelled people were at this time. Actually
                    whole regiments, many of which served in North America, visited
                    places such as Egypt, India and Argentina.

                    >Who is now on Sutler's row?

                    Please see previous postings on the topic of sutlers. There is a
                    wonderful 1790s drawing of one possible person being drummed out of
                    Hyde Park.

                    >It's ancient, it's artistic and would add such a wonderful flair to
                    our events.

                    Yes, so would elephant rides.

                    >I just wonder how it could be appropriate to a British/American war
                    re-enactment. I have an inkling it isn't - but I really want to
                    discover it is!

                    Professor Hobbes has made an appropriate comment to this in his last
                    paragraph.

                    Thankyou so much for your interest in our hobby and area of study
                    though I do feel the Society for Creative Anachronism is more likely
                    fit for your interests.

                    Cheers,

                    Len
                  • Angela
                    Dearest Len, I m not sure whether or not you meant your post to be informative or humorous, but I found it insulting. As far as professions go, I am a Systems
                    Message 9 of 29 , May 2 6:30 PM
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                      Dearest Len,

                      I'm not sure whether or not you meant your post to be informative or humorous, but I found it insulting.

                      As far as professions go, I am a Systems Analyst.

                      As for the SCA being an outlet for my re-enacting interests, this will be my third year on sutler's row as a chandler and soap boiler. I'm still fairly new, but have taken a good deal of time, effort, research and expense to portray myself with historical accuracy. I've made errors and take pride enough to fix the mistakes I've made. Odds are - I'll make more, but each year will be better than the last.

                      I suppose I could go beyond these statements in the name of defensiveness, but speaking respectfully to others has always been a quality of mine. For a small fee, I may entertain the idea of sharing a little lesson or two with you on how to speak to others as equals.

                      In the meantime; happy re-enacting.


                      Regards,
                      Angela Bourbonnais




                      Len Heidebrecht <lheidebrecht@...> wrote:
                      Hello Angela, I have a few thoughts to add here.

                      > I have an off the beaten path question here about bellydance. Yes,
                      bellydance.

                      Yes, it is quite a distance off.

                      > Last year I was asked to take part in a medieval re-enactment.

                      Neither the Dark Ages Society, nor Regia Angoreum have such a style
                      of dance, so this must have been the Society for Creative
                      Anachronism.

                      >During that event, there were some bellydancers performing and I
                      was awestruck and taken with the artform immediately!

                      Fantastic. As a dancer myself, I'm always pleased to see someone
                      discovering new forms of the art and the ability to express oneself;
                      though how anyone over the age of six has not ever been subjected to
                      bellydance in some form, is beyond me.

                      > This last year I've been recruited by two local professional
                      troupes and am now performing in restaurants and theatre events.

                      I wish you well in your chosen profession.

                      >Therefore, I'm calling upon anyone who is versed on bellydance in
                      its original form and has appropriate resources for me to research
                      the topic.

                      There are a number of professional researchers on this list who
                      would (for a given and oft quoted hourly fee) spend a great deal of
                      time looking for this information.

                      > I have been trying to find whether or not bellydance would be
                      suitable to the 1812 period, but can't find any information.

                      There is, to my mind at least one possible reason for this.

                      >I realize it's not typical, but it is authentic?

                      No, I am certain that it is not a typical form of entertainment to
                      be found in a reputable camp. I'm sure someone would have mentioned
                      it, Lt John le Couteur being the most likely.

                      >I mean, would there be any possibility that there'd have been a
                      woman or her ancestors who may have traveled to the Middle East or
                      Latin America?

                      Having been in a state of war for almost a generation it is
                      suprising how well travelled people were at this time. Actually
                      whole regiments, many of which served in North America, visited
                      places such as Egypt, India and Argentina.

                      >Who is now on Sutler's row?

                      Please see previous postings on the topic of sutlers. There is a
                      wonderful 1790s drawing of one possible person being drummed out of
                      Hyde Park.

                      >It's ancient, it's artistic and would add such a wonderful flair to
                      our events.

                      Yes, so would elephant rides.

                      >I just wonder how it could be appropriate to a British/American war
                      re-enactment. I have an inkling it isn't - but I really want to
                      discover it is!

                      Professor Hobbes has made an appropriate comment to this in his last
                      paragraph.

                      Thankyou so much for your interest in our hobby and area of study
                      though I do feel the Society for Creative Anachronism is more likely
                      fit for your interests.

                      Cheers,

                      Len







                      The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

                      Unit Contact information for North America:
                      ---------------------------------
                      Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                      http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                      American Forces Unit Lisiting
                      http://usforces1812.tripod.com



                      ---------------------------------
                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                      To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/

                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                    • PETER CATLEY
                      On this Tim and I agree! as far as I recall Becky didn t visit India in the original novel, that was a Bollywood add on for the spectacular effect allong eith
                      Message 10 of 29 , May 2 11:39 PM
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                        On this Tim and I agree! as far as I recall Becky
                        didn't visit India in the original novel, that was a
                        Bollywood add on for the spectacular effect allong
                        eith the Russett Rangers.

                        Cheers

                        P**

                        --- BritcomHMP@... wrote:
                        ---------------------------------

                        In a message dated 5/2/05 3:50:44 PM,
                        ciefranche21e@... writes:


                        > I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from
                        Vanity
                        > Fair as an example. ;-) Been too long since I read
                        the book, but the movie
                        > certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.
                        >

                        I would imagine that cinematic representation would be
                        about a accurate as
                        the military bits of that opus Mike!

                        Cheers

                        Tim


                        Timothy Pickles
                        1100 Rue Chartres
                        New Orleans
                        Louisiana 70116
                        Tel & Fax: 504 522 4822
                        Mobile: 504 236 7130



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the
                        fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America,
                        hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square
                        miles...

                        Unit Contact information for North America:
                        ---------------------------------
                        Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                        http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                        American Forces Unit Lisiting
                        http://usforces1812.tripod.com



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                      • Angela Gottfred
                        ... Yes, I think they got confused with Italy. They both begin with an I , you see. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred
                        Message 11 of 29 , May 3 5:59 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > as far as I recall Becky
                          > didn't visit India in the original novel, that was a
                          > Bollywood add on for the spectacular effect along

                          Yes, I think they got confused with Italy. They both begin with an "I", you see.

                          Your humble & obedient servant,
                          Angela Gottfred
                        • suthren@magma.ca
                          Dear Angela I hope you will proceed with your efforts to recreate the possible appearance and repertoire of a raisa of baladi as she might have appeared in
                          Message 12 of 29 , May 3 6:29 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Angela

                            I hope you will proceed with your efforts to recreate the possible
                            appearance and repertoire of a 'raisa' of 'baladi' as she might have
                            appeared in the 1790s-1815 timeframe. True, it has little to do with the
                            largely military focus of the majority of our re-enactment activity, nor was
                            it likely an art form or entertainment seen on the Upper Canadian or
                            Michigan frontier. It nonetheless would add a flash of color from the wider
                            Napoleonic world that the Invasion of Egypt and the Turkish fascination of
                            the age so represent, and which must have touched our shores in one way or
                            another.

                            The Naval Establishment, Crown Forces North America, wishes to extend an
                            invitation to you to be a respected guest of the Naval Encampment at any
                            time.

                            Vic Suthren
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Angela Gottfred" <agottfre@...>
                            To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 8:59 AM
                            Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance


                            > > as far as I recall Becky
                            > > didn't visit India in the original novel, that was a
                            > > Bollywood add on for the spectacular effect along
                            >
                            > Yes, I think they got confused with Italy. They both begin with an "I",
                            you see.
                            >
                            > Your humble & obedient servant,
                            > Angela Gottfred
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                            square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                            square miles...
                            >
                            > Unit Contact information for North America:
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                            > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                            >
                            > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                            > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            > No virus found in this incoming message.
                            > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                            > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/05
                            >
                            >
                          • bmitcheca
                            Hi Angela, Here is another site that I have just registered with that could give you some of the historical references that you were looking for.
                            Message 13 of 29 , May 3 8:12 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Angela,

                              Here is another site that I have just registered with that could give
                              you some of the historical references that you were looking for.

                              www.milescopeland.net/bellydance/home/

                              I am a sutler as well and it would be great speaking with you about
                              this great hobby.

                              Beth Mitchell
                            • HQ93rd@aol.com
                              ... Just what I was about to say! So when are we having an Egypt event? (NOT actually IN Egypt, mind!) B 93rd SHRoFLHU 93rdhighlanders.com THE Thin Red Line
                              Message 14 of 29 , May 4 12:10 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                In a message dated 2/05/2005 7:32:08 AM, suthren@... writes:


                                > But I'd risk the
                                > thought that it would be colourful and an addition, even if more the
                                > atmosphere of Napoleon's campaign in Egypt than William Henry Harrison
                                > pursuing Tecumseh.....
                                >

                                Just what I was about to say!
                                So when are we having an Egypt event? (NOT actually IN Egypt, mind!)

                                B
                                93rd SHRoFLHU
                                93rdhighlanders.com
                                THE Thin Red Line


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • ray hobbs
                                Dear Thin :-) My archaeological expedition for six years was at Tel Dor, Israel. It used to be known as Tanturah, and was one of the sites of a pause in
                                Message 15 of 29 , May 4 2:59 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dear Thin :-)
                                  My archaeological expedition for six years was at Tel Dor, Israel. It
                                  used to be known as Tanturah, and was one of the sites of a pause in
                                  Nappy's journey back to Egypt after Acre.
                                  In the museum at the site there are numerous encrusted cannons and
                                  muskets, a few sabres and other swords as well. Many were found on the
                                  seabed by the underwater team from the University of Haifa, others were
                                  found on site and had been buried for 180 years.
                                  Now this ain't Egypt today, but when Napoleon went through it was
                                  governed by Egypt as a province of the Ottoman Empire.
                                  I would love to see a battle or skirmish over land that has seen
                                  thousands of years of civilisation and warfare - and hot! Talk about
                                  hot! 40 Celsius by midday onsite (for those still using Fahrenheit -
                                  very hot). Wool uniforms - just what was needed.
                                  Egypt today - India tomorrow, and then the Fever isles - now that would
                                  be reenacting!
                                  Ray H
                                  41st Foot




                                  On Wednesday, May 4, 2005, at 03:10 PM, HQ93rd@... wrote:

                                  >
                                  > In a message dated 2/05/2005 7:32:08 AM, suthren@... writes:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > But I'd risk the
                                  > > thought that it would be colourful and an addition, even if more the
                                  > > atmosphere of Napoleon's campaign in Egypt than William Henry
                                  > Harrison
                                  > > pursuing Tecumseh.....
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > Just what I was about to say!
                                  > So when are we having an Egypt event? (NOT actually IN Egypt, mind!)
                                  >
                                  > B
                                  > 93rd SHRoFLHU
                                  > 93rdhighlanders.com
                                  > THE Thin Red Line
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
                                  > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
                                  > THOUSANDS of square miles...
                                  >
                                  > Unit Contact information for North America:
                                  > �� ---------------------------------
                                  > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                  > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                                  >
                                  > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                                  > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  <image.tiff>
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
                                  > �
                                  > � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > �
                                  > � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • lalozon
                                  From: ray hobbs ... I would love to see a battle or skirmish over land that has seen thousands of years of civilisation and
                                  Message 16 of 29 , May 4 3:03 PM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    From: "ray hobbs" <ray.hobbs@...>



                                    " ... I would love to see a battle or skirmish over land that has seen
                                    thousands of years of civilisation and warfare - and hot! Talk about hot!
                                    40 Celsius by midday onsite (for those still using Fahrenheit - very
                                    hot)...




                                    For my American friends that's 104 Fahrenheit!

                                    40 Celsius = 104 Fahrenheit

                                    But it is a dry heat ...

                                    similar to putting one's head in the oven !


                                    L2
                                  • ray hobbs
                                    L2 Not a dry heat - very, very humid on the coast. Prevailing west wind from the Mediterranean Sea. More like being boiled in a pan. ... RH
                                    Message 17 of 29 , May 4 3:11 PM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      L2
                                      Not a dry heat - very, very humid on the coast. Prevailing west wind
                                      from the Mediterranean Sea.
                                      More like being boiled in a pan.
                                      :-)
                                      RH


                                      On Wednesday, May 4, 2005, at 06:03 PM, lalozon wrote:

                                      > From: "ray hobbs" <ray.hobbs@...>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > " ... I would love to see a battle or skirmish over land that has seen
                                      > thousands of years of civilisation and warfare - and hot! Talk about
                                      > hot!
                                      > 40 Celsius by midday onsite (for those still using Fahrenheit - very
                                      > hot)...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > For my American friends that's 104 Fahrenheit!
                                      >
                                      > 40 Celsius = 104 Fahrenheit
                                      >
                                      > But it is a dry heat ...
                                      >
                                      > similar to putting one's head in the oven !
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > L2
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
                                      > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
                                      > THOUSANDS of square miles...
                                      >
                                      > Unit Contact information for North America:
                                      > ---------------------------------
                                      > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                      > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                                      >
                                      > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                                      > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Angela
                                      G Day Folks, Well, I m tickled right pink! My husband has finally decided to join me in a re-enactment event this summer. He and our three children will be
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jul 16, 2005
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        G'Day Folks,

                                        Well, I'm tickled right pink! My husband has finally decided to join me in a re-enactment event this summer. He and our three children will be accompanying me on Sutler's Row at Wasaga Beach. After three years of pestering him, I really want him to enjoy this as the family event I've worked it up to being.

                                        Our three children are ages 2, 5 and 8. This was a last minute decision and there's no time to order and games via Jas Townsend or the like. Does anyone have any suggestions for games for us and the children? My husband is handy with woodwork and he'd have no problem whipping something up in time - I just haven't seen many family games around camp so am at a loss for ideas. My Google searches aren't helping much at all, unfortunately!

                                        Regards,

                                        Angela Bourbonnais (who's speed sewing their costumes)


                                        __________________________________________________
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                                        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Peter Monahan
                                        Angela In addition to the Squire s suggestion, a skipping rope made of real rope and/or a rag stuffed ball (of leather orm cloth)would be appropriate for any
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jul 17, 2005
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Angela

                                          In addition to the Squire's suggestion, a skipping rope made of real rope and/or a rag stuffed ball (of leather orm cloth)would be appropriate for any age. A cutout wooden musket or pistol, while not "PC" in 2005 terms is very appropriate for 1812 and popular with all ages. In a pinch, crooked branches work too!

                                          You can probably recruit some olders as "sitters" who mwould take the littlers ona tour of the camp to meet the dogs and other kids too. Ask when you check in which families are there. Most of our young adults are very responsible that way! Hope to see you there.

                                          Peter Monahan,
                                          Royal Nfld Reg't

                                          =========================================================
                                          From: Angela <deedle_momof3@...>
                                          Date: 2005/07/16 Sat PM 03:17:08 EST
                                          To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [WarOf1812] Family Games?


                                          G'Day Folks,

                                          Well, I'm tickled right pink! My husband has finally decided to join me in a re-enactment event this summer. He and our three children will be accompanying me on Sutler's Row at Wasaga Beach. After three years of pestering him, I really want him to enjoy this as the family event I've worked it up to being.

                                          Our three children are ages 2, 5 and 8. This was a last minute decision and there's no time to order and games via Jas Townsend or the like. Does anyone have any suggestions for games for us and the children? My husband is handy with woodwork and he'd have no problem whipping something up in time - I just haven't seen many family games around camp so am at a loss for ideas. My Google searches aren't helping much at all, unfortunately!

                                          Regards,

                                          Angela Bourbonnais (who's speed sewing their costumes)


                                          __________________________________________________
                                          Do You Yahoo!?
                                          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                          http://mail.yahoo.com

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                          The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

                                          Unit Contact information for North America:
                                          ---------------------------------
                                          Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                          http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                                          American Forces Unit Listing
                                          http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                                          Yahoo! Groups Links





                                          ============================================================


                                          Peter Monahan
                                          petermonahan@...
                                          705-435-0953 home
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