Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [WarOf1812] Bellydance

Expand Messages
  • suthren@magma.ca
    Dear Angela With respect to prudishness in the neoclassical era, I think if anything it was a far more libertine era than the stifling Victorian era which
    Message 1 of 29 , May 2, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Angela

      With respect to prudishness in the neoclassical era, I think if anything it
      was a far more libertine era than the stifling Victorian era which followed,
      in which grandparents who had lived much more freely (in relative terms) in
      the Revolutionary/Napoleonic/Regency era were forced to live with a sense of
      nostalgia and enforced guilt amidst far more restrained, prudish and
      inhibited children and grandchildren. You might recall it was as well the
      era of Emma Hamilton and her 'attitudes' in thin Grecian drapery, and the
      charming Empire gowns that shocked later Victorians with their revealing
      styles. As mentioned, your persona could likely be either a
      Turkish/Levantine woman attached to a musician, or indeed a European woman
      having involuntarily experienced Middle Eastern culture; either way, I would
      think it would be a charming addition to the encampments, adding grace and a
      touch of the color and romance which always has been part of our Napoleonic,
      recreated world....

      Vic Suthren
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Angela" <deedle_momof3@...>
      To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:18 PM
      Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance


      > That was one of my first concerns, Angela - an one I'd like to learn more
      about.
      >
      > Costuming can be made as demure as entire coverage from collar bone to
      ankle, or even just the eyes, hands and feet exposed; dance styles vary from
      sensuous to energetic and geared towards all members of the family.
      >
      > I'd really love to check out some resources if available on the subject.
      If bellydance would be appropriate - in which form? Where? When? What style
      of costuming, exactly? I could make educated assumptions on the topic, but
      I'd really rather not assume.
      >
      > I guess I'm thinking that if it was appropriate in the Cavalier period
      (let's remember those Victorian era "prudes")!... it'd make sense that it
      "may" be suitable to our re-enactments in some form or another as well.
      >
      > Where to start! I haven't a clue...
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Angela Bourbonnais
      >
      > Angela Gottfred <agottfre@...> wrote:
      > >Do you
      > > think that a 'Bellydancer'
      > > would spice up the Crown Forces Corps of Drums presentation at events
      > > or a dull Officer's Mess ....... :^)
      >
      > I would've thought that bellydance would be quite scandalous by period
      > standards, so it would be most suitable for a gentleman's after-hours
      > entertainment...Like, say, at the Beaver Club or other, less-genteel
      > establishments (be they permanent or temporary). It's the kind of thing
      that
      > might also have a veneer of respectability, since it is a true depiction
      of an
      > exotic cultural practice (thinking of Mata Hari's dancing, a century
      later) .
      >
      > The other Angela,
      > Your humble & obedient servant,
      > Angela Gottfred
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
      square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
      square miles...
      >
      > Unit Contact information for North America:
      > ---------------------------------
      > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
      > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
      >
      > American Forces Unit Lisiting
      > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      >
      >
      > __________________________________________________
      > Do You Yahoo!?
      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      > http://mail.yahoo.com
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
      square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
      square miles...
      >
      > Unit Contact information for North America:
      > ---------------------------------
      > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
      > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
      >
      > American Forces Unit Lisiting
      > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
      > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/05
      >
      >
    • PEGGY Mathews
      And let us not forget the influence of those coming from or going to India. Exotic/erotic dance was imported from there, though not necessarily for polite
      Message 2 of 29 , May 2, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        And let us not forget the influence of those coming from or going to India.
        Exotic/erotic dance was imported from there, though not necessarily for
        "polite" society. I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from Vanity
        Fair as an example. ;-) Been too long since I read the book, but the movie
        certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.

        Michael Mathews



        "The opportunity for brotherhood presents itself every time you meet a human
        being." - Jane Wyman




        >From: <suthren@...>
        >Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
        >To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
        >Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Bellydance
        >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:13:29 -0400
        >
        >Dear Angela
        >
        >With respect to prudishness in the neoclassical era, I think if anything it
        >was a far more libertine era than the stifling Victorian era which
        >followed,
        >in which grandparents who had lived much more freely (in relative terms) in
        >the Revolutionary/Napoleonic/Regency era were forced to live with a sense
        >of
        >nostalgia and enforced guilt amidst far more restrained, prudish and
        >inhibited children and grandchildren. You might recall it was as well the
        >era of Emma Hamilton and her 'attitudes' in thin Grecian drapery, and the
        >charming Empire gowns that shocked later Victorians with their revealing
        >styles. As mentioned, your persona could likely be either a
        >Turkish/Levantine woman attached to a musician, or indeed a European woman
        >having involuntarily experienced Middle Eastern culture; either way, I
        >would
        >think it would be a charming addition to the encampments, adding grace and
        >a
        >touch of the color and romance which always has been part of our
        >Napoleonic,
        >recreated world....
        >
        >Vic Suthren
        >----- Original Message -----
        >From: "Angela" <deedle_momof3@...>
        >To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
        >Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:18 PM
        >Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance
        >
        >
        > > That was one of my first concerns, Angela - an one I'd like to learn
        >more
        >about.
        > >
        > > Costuming can be made as demure as entire coverage from collar bone to
        >ankle, or even just the eyes, hands and feet exposed; dance styles vary
        >from
        >sensuous to energetic and geared towards all members of the family.
        > >
        > > I'd really love to check out some resources if available on the subject.
        >If bellydance would be appropriate - in which form? Where? When? What style
        >of costuming, exactly? I could make educated assumptions on the topic, but
        >I'd really rather not assume.
        > >
        > > I guess I'm thinking that if it was appropriate in the Cavalier period
        >(let's remember those Victorian era "prudes")!... it'd make sense that it
        >"may" be suitable to our re-enactments in some form or another as well.
        > >
        > > Where to start! I haven't a clue...
        > >
        > > Cheers,
        > > Angela Bourbonnais
        > >
        (snip)
      • ray hobbs
        I ll throw my two cents worth in here. This for a couple of reasons, [1] as an historian and [2] as the father of a daughter who takes bellydancing lessons.
        Message 3 of 29 , May 2, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          I'll throw my two cents' worth in here. This for a couple of reasons,
          [1] as an historian and [2] as the father of a daughter who takes
          bellydancing lessons. She has no intention of performing it, but what
          she has learned has dispelled some of the mythology of the craft.

          First - it is quite possible, even probable that in the Regency period
          oriental dancing became popular in places like Vauxhall Gardens. As
          several have already pointed out, things "Turkish", or "Mohammetan"
          were very popular at this time. There is even a famous print of two
          "Mohammetans" visiting Vauxhall Gardens in the late 18th century, but
          as visitors, not performers.
          Second - equally as probable is that this art was exploited by the
          clubs and gangs of "Young Turks" (note the epithet) which were
          sprinkled throughout the London and Brighton society of the day.
          Third - whether there was public display in military encampments is
          another matter. Looking at the schedule for the day of the average
          British encamped soldier, I think it highly unlikely that such things
          would be allowed, even by the most liberal-minded commanding officer
          (and they were few!)
          Fourth - as for the officers' mess, as the popular saying has it "What
          happens there, stays there". However, I have read a few first-hand
          descriptions of mess antics, and they seem to me to be rather boring.
          The cost of having such entertainment would probably be prohibitive.
          After all, how many such dancers would there be in Canada, or the US at
          the time?
          Fifth - I have every support for someone who wants to explore all
          aspects of Regency society as an aid to improving our impression. The
          more research the better. However, I have the sneaking feeling that at
          the current state of our knowledge this falls into the category of "If
          it was available, they'd have done it".
          Sixth - Military encampments and barracks were not town fairs.
          Seventh - now whether the Methodists of Ancaster or Saltfleet engaged
          in such entertainment is another matter. After all, they did distill
          some of the best whisky in the Province :-) Come to think of it, Isaac
          Brock thought that Methodist preaching was a "threat to public order
          and safety", Lord knows what he would have thought of belly-dancers.
          Yrs etc.
          Ray Hobbs
          41st Regt.


          On Monday, May 2, 2005, at 04:49 PM, PEGGY Mathews wrote:

          > And let us not forget the influence of those coming from or going to
          > India.�
          > Exotic/erotic dance was imported from there, though not necessarily for
          > "polite" society.� I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from
          > Vanity
          > Fair as an example.� ;-)� Been too long since I read the book, but the
          > movie
          > certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.
          >
          > Michael Mathews
          >
          >
          >
          > "The opportunity for brotherhood presents itself every time you meet a
          > human
          > being." - Jane Wyman
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > >From: <suthren@...>
          > >Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
          > >To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
          > >Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Bellydance
          > >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:13:29 -0400
          > >
          > >Dear Angela
          > >
          > >With respect to prudishness in the neoclassical era, I think if
          > anything it
          > >was a far more libertine era than the stifling Victorian era which
          > >followed,
          > >in which grandparents who had lived much more freely (in relative
          > terms) in
          > >the Revolutionary/Napoleonic/Regency era were forced to live with a
          > sense
          > >of
          > >nostalgia and enforced guilt amidst far more restrained, prudish and
          > >inhibited children and grandchildren. You might recall it was as well
          > the
          > >era of Emma Hamilton and her 'attitudes' in thin Grecian drapery, and
          > the
          > >charming Empire gowns that shocked later Victorians with their
          > revealing
          > >styles. As mentioned, your persona could likely be either a
          > >Turkish/Levantine woman attached to a musician, or indeed a European
          > woman
          > >having involuntarily experienced Middle Eastern culture; either way, I
          > >would
          > >think it would be a charming addition to the encampments, adding
          > grace and
          > >a
          > >touch of the color and romance which always has been part of our
          > >Napoleonic,
          > >recreated world....
          > >
          > >Vic Suthren
          > >----- Original Message -----
          > >From: "Angela" <deedle_momof3@...>
          > >To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
          > >Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:18 PM
          > >Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance
          > >
          > >
          > > > That was one of my first concerns, Angela - an one I'd like to
          > learn
          > >more
          > >about.
          > > >
          > > > Costuming can be made as demure as entire coverage from collar
          > bone to
          > >ankle, or even just the eyes, hands and feet exposed; dance styles
          > vary
          > >from
          > >sensuous to energetic and geared towards all members of the family.
          > > >
          > > > I'd really love to check out some resources if available on the
          > subject.
          > >If bellydance would be appropriate - in which form? Where? When? What
          > style
          > >of costuming, exactly? I could make educated assumptions on the
          > topic, but
          > >I'd really rather not assume.
          > > >
          > > > I guess I'm thinking that if it was appropriate in the Cavalier
          > period
          > >(let's remember those Victorian era "prudes")!... it'd make sense
          > that it
          > >"may" be suitable to our re-enactments in some form or another as
          > well.
          > > >
          > > > Where to start! I haven't a clue...
          > > >
          > > > Cheers,
          > > > Angela Bourbonnais
          > > >
          > (snip)
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
          > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
          > THOUSANDS of square miles...
          >
          > Unit Contact information for North America:
          > �� ---------------------------------
          > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
          > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
          >
          > American Forces Unit Lisiting
          > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
          >
          >
          <image.tiff>
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
          > �
          > � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > �
          > � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • BritcomHMP@aol.com
          ... I would imagine that cinematic representation would be about a accurate as the military bits of that opus Mike! Cheers Tim Timothy Pickles 1100 Rue
          Message 4 of 29 , May 2, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            In a message dated 5/2/05 3:50:44 PM, ciefranche21e@... writes:


            > I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from Vanity
            > Fair as an example.  ;-)  Been too long since I read the book, but the movie
            > certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.
            >

            I would imagine that cinematic representation would be about a accurate as
            the military bits of that opus Mike!

            Cheers

            Tim


            Timothy Pickles
            1100 Rue Chartres
            New Orleans
            Louisiana 70116
            Tel & Fax: 504 522 4822
            Mobile: 504 236 7130



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Angela
            There we have it... Thank you, Mike! Bellydance is the world s oldest known documented dance form. The fact that it s been tainted as a means of erotic
            Message 5 of 29 , May 2, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              There we have it...
              Thank you, Mike!


              Bellydance is the world's oldest known documented dance form. The fact that it's been tainted as a means of erotic entertainment for men is the responsibility of Westernized society. The dance was once used to pantomime the sowing and harvesting of crops, to bless and heal, expel demons, to worship deities, to prepare for childbirth and womanhood, and as most of you have come to know it - for secular entertainment.

              Nobody knows where it originated, but ancient forms of bellydance have been traced to India, Egypt, Turkey, Tunisia, Hungary, Russia, China, Africa, the Caucasus Mountains, Eastern Europe, Russia, Western Europe and Spain. (I'm probably leaving some out here)!

              For years (B.C.), it's been customary for bellydancers to entertain family at weddings in the Middle East. A dancer would wear a candelbra on her head to light the way for the wedding party (no streetlights then). Family members would (and still do) get up and dance with the dancer. Middle Eastern men bellydance nearly as often as women. (In their masculine version).

              As a mother of three young children, I assure you that my goal here is not erotic entertainment for the men among us. What I wonder, is that whether or not an ancient artform such as bellydance could have been found in millitary encampments of the 1812 period in Upper Canada. I almost wonder how such an ancient dance from so many corners of the world could not have found a place.

              Would it have been shunned as something entirely inappropriate? There's no secret that Western society was (and still is) uncomfortable with sensuality. It's unfortunate that so many have a hard time distinguishing feminine sensuality from overt sexuality - but that's a battle I've grown accustomed to defending.

              Would it have been possible for a (dancing) woman of any stature to be traveling with the millitary for any reason? If so, how? Would such a thing be frowned upon? Why? I'm interested in your opinions, I truly am. But where can I find some accurate details on the subject? Anybody?


              Respectfully,

              Angela Bourbonnais



              BritcomHMP@... wrote:

              In a message dated 5/2/05 3:50:44 PM, ciefranche21e@... writes:


              > I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from Vanity
              > Fair as an example. ;-) Been too long since I read the book, but the movie
              > certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.
              >

              I would imagine that cinematic representation would be about a accurate as
              the military bits of that opus Mike!

              Cheers

              Tim


              Timothy Pickles
              1100 Rue Chartres
              New Orleans
              Louisiana 70116
              Tel & Fax: 504 522 4822
              Mobile: 504 236 7130



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

              Unit Contact information for North America:
              ---------------------------------
              Crown Forces Unit Listing:
              http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

              American Forces Unit Lisiting
              http://usforces1812.tripod.com



              ---------------------------------
              Yahoo! Groups Links

              To visit your group on the web, go to:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/

              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              http://mail.yahoo.com

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Phil Graf
              My advice on the matter would would be to emphasize researching what was, before resorting to what could have been. Just because something may have been
              Message 6 of 29 , May 2, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                My advice on the matter would would be to emphasize researching what was, before resorting to what could have been. Just because something may have been possible does not mean it was actually done.

                Phil G.
                Fifth - I have every support for someone who wants to explore all
                aspects of Regency society as an aid to improving our impression. The
                more research the better. However, I have the sneaking feeling that at
                the current state of our knowledge this falls into the category of "If
                it was available, they'd have done it".

                Yrs etc.
                Ray Hobbs
                41st Regt.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • mccombs98
                Angela, A can t comment on bellydancing in Upper Canada, but let s look a little closer. I have reference to an Anglican Minister from York visiting the
                Message 7 of 29 , May 2, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Angela,
                  A can't comment on "bellydancing" in Upper Canada, but let's look a
                  little closer.
                  I have reference to an Anglican Minister from York visiting the Detroit
                  region in 1793 where he observed MPP William McComb dancing pagan
                  dances with the natives. His letter expresses outrage at the sight
                  (little would he know that this was the annual Fete of the early
                  NWCo.). The Macomb and Edgars of Detroit were invested in the China
                  Trade by 1788, so the question to ponder is whether they brought back
                  any visiting foreign "dignataries" and/or entourage?
                  Considering that the Anglican Church was the only sanctioned and
                  official church in Upper Canada at that time, a phantom "bellydancer"
                  would most definately not meet with approval in the community at large.
                  However having said that, someone else has commented that it was the
                  Victorian age that brought us the common perception of English
                  prudishness. The Regency period was full of rogues, drinking, and
                  experiencing the good life and all the wonderous discoveries the world
                  had to offer. To the adventurous soul, this was akin to a scientific
                  experiment.
                  Just a thought.
                  Murray.


                  >
                  > Would it have been shunned as something entirely inappropriate? There's no secret that Western society was (and still is) uncomfortable with sensuality. It's unfortunate that so many have a hard time distinguishing feminine sensuality from overt sexuality - but that's a battle I've grown accustomed to defending.
                • elisabeth687
                  ... be traveling with the millitary for any reason? If so, how? Would such a thing be frowned upon? Why? I m interested in your opinions, I truly am. But where
                  Message 8 of 29 , May 2, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Angela <deedle_momof3@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Would it have been possible for a (dancing) woman of any stature to
                    be traveling with the millitary for any reason? If so, how? Would such
                    a thing be frowned upon? Why? I'm interested in your opinions, I truly
                    am. But where can I find some accurate details on the subject? Anybody?

                    Emma Hamilton has been mentioned, as a woman performing what might
                    have been considered inappropriate "Attitudes" in private for her
                    husband and his guests. Another wife might have Turkish dance talents;
                    I doubt a wife connected with the military would perform publicly,
                    although if her husband was dead, she might need a source of income.

                    For your earlier query about clothing: I did look into late 18th
                    century Turkish costume some years ago and have been trying to
                    remember what I found with only mediocre success. Folkwear
                    (www.folkwear.com) has two patterns that look like reasonable starting
                    points and both have received good reviews on The Great Pattern Review
                    at gbacg.org: Turkish Dancer (108) includes the entari and a vest and
                    short jacket and Sarouelles (119) has shalwar trousers. I don't know
                    where you'd find a pattern for the shift but you might be able to fake
                    it, given a decent description--try for a quote of Lady Mary Wortley
                    Montagu's comments on her Turkish clothing; it's quite detailed,
                    although it's a century too early. There is a chapter on fancy dress
                    including oriental costume in Aileen Ribeiro's The Art of Dress:
                    Fashion in England and France, 1750-1820 which reproduces several
                    paintings of rich ladies in Turkish-inspired costume. There is also a
                    very well-illustrated book called Historical Costume of Turkish Women
                    (Nisantasi, Istanbul: Middle East Video Corp., 1986) that you might be
                    able to get through ILL. I don't think any of the costumes therein
                    date back to 1812, but you might be able to use it for ideas and
                    confirm with research. I know I've seen other books on historic Middle
                    Eastern costume, but it's been a few years and I'm having trouble
                    finding specific titles. I see several perfect books in Library of
                    Congress' catalog, if you live close to DC, but as they have
                    publication dates of 1819 and 1820 I doubt LC would send them anywhere
                    (you can try going to catalog.loc.gov and searching by call number at
                    GT1370 and following to see books on Middle Eastern costume or
                    searching subject headings to get an idea of what has been available
                    in this or other areas of interest).

                    --Amy C.
                  • Len Heidebrecht
                    Hello Angela, I have a few thoughts to add here. ... bellydance. Yes, it is quite a distance off. ... Neither the Dark Ages Society, nor Regia Angoreum have
                    Message 9 of 29 , May 2, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello Angela, I have a few thoughts to add here.

                      > I have an off the beaten path question here about bellydance. Yes,
                      bellydance.

                      Yes, it is quite a distance off.

                      > Last year I was asked to take part in a medieval re-enactment.

                      Neither the Dark Ages Society, nor Regia Angoreum have such a style
                      of dance, so this must have been the Society for Creative
                      Anachronism.

                      >During that event, there were some bellydancers performing and I
                      was awestruck and taken with the artform immediately!

                      Fantastic. As a dancer myself, I'm always pleased to see someone
                      discovering new forms of the art and the ability to express oneself;
                      though how anyone over the age of six has not ever been subjected to
                      bellydance in some form, is beyond me.

                      > This last year I've been recruited by two local professional
                      troupes and am now performing in restaurants and theatre events.

                      I wish you well in your chosen profession.

                      >Therefore, I'm calling upon anyone who is versed on bellydance in
                      its original form and has appropriate resources for me to research
                      the topic.

                      There are a number of professional researchers on this list who
                      would (for a given and oft quoted hourly fee) spend a great deal of
                      time looking for this information.

                      > I have been trying to find whether or not bellydance would be
                      suitable to the 1812 period, but can't find any information.

                      There is, to my mind at least one possible reason for this.

                      >I realize it's not typical, but it is authentic?

                      No, I am certain that it is not a typical form of entertainment to
                      be found in a reputable camp. I'm sure someone would have mentioned
                      it, Lt John le Couteur being the most likely.

                      >I mean, would there be any possibility that there'd have been a
                      woman or her ancestors who may have traveled to the Middle East or
                      Latin America?

                      Having been in a state of war for almost a generation it is
                      suprising how well travelled people were at this time. Actually
                      whole regiments, many of which served in North America, visited
                      places such as Egypt, India and Argentina.

                      >Who is now on Sutler's row?

                      Please see previous postings on the topic of sutlers. There is a
                      wonderful 1790s drawing of one possible person being drummed out of
                      Hyde Park.

                      >It's ancient, it's artistic and would add such a wonderful flair to
                      our events.

                      Yes, so would elephant rides.

                      >I just wonder how it could be appropriate to a British/American war
                      re-enactment. I have an inkling it isn't - but I really want to
                      discover it is!

                      Professor Hobbes has made an appropriate comment to this in his last
                      paragraph.

                      Thankyou so much for your interest in our hobby and area of study
                      though I do feel the Society for Creative Anachronism is more likely
                      fit for your interests.

                      Cheers,

                      Len
                    • Angela
                      Dearest Len, I m not sure whether or not you meant your post to be informative or humorous, but I found it insulting. As far as professions go, I am a Systems
                      Message 10 of 29 , May 2, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dearest Len,

                        I'm not sure whether or not you meant your post to be informative or humorous, but I found it insulting.

                        As far as professions go, I am a Systems Analyst.

                        As for the SCA being an outlet for my re-enacting interests, this will be my third year on sutler's row as a chandler and soap boiler. I'm still fairly new, but have taken a good deal of time, effort, research and expense to portray myself with historical accuracy. I've made errors and take pride enough to fix the mistakes I've made. Odds are - I'll make more, but each year will be better than the last.

                        I suppose I could go beyond these statements in the name of defensiveness, but speaking respectfully to others has always been a quality of mine. For a small fee, I may entertain the idea of sharing a little lesson or two with you on how to speak to others as equals.

                        In the meantime; happy re-enacting.


                        Regards,
                        Angela Bourbonnais




                        Len Heidebrecht <lheidebrecht@...> wrote:
                        Hello Angela, I have a few thoughts to add here.

                        > I have an off the beaten path question here about bellydance. Yes,
                        bellydance.

                        Yes, it is quite a distance off.

                        > Last year I was asked to take part in a medieval re-enactment.

                        Neither the Dark Ages Society, nor Regia Angoreum have such a style
                        of dance, so this must have been the Society for Creative
                        Anachronism.

                        >During that event, there were some bellydancers performing and I
                        was awestruck and taken with the artform immediately!

                        Fantastic. As a dancer myself, I'm always pleased to see someone
                        discovering new forms of the art and the ability to express oneself;
                        though how anyone over the age of six has not ever been subjected to
                        bellydance in some form, is beyond me.

                        > This last year I've been recruited by two local professional
                        troupes and am now performing in restaurants and theatre events.

                        I wish you well in your chosen profession.

                        >Therefore, I'm calling upon anyone who is versed on bellydance in
                        its original form and has appropriate resources for me to research
                        the topic.

                        There are a number of professional researchers on this list who
                        would (for a given and oft quoted hourly fee) spend a great deal of
                        time looking for this information.

                        > I have been trying to find whether or not bellydance would be
                        suitable to the 1812 period, but can't find any information.

                        There is, to my mind at least one possible reason for this.

                        >I realize it's not typical, but it is authentic?

                        No, I am certain that it is not a typical form of entertainment to
                        be found in a reputable camp. I'm sure someone would have mentioned
                        it, Lt John le Couteur being the most likely.

                        >I mean, would there be any possibility that there'd have been a
                        woman or her ancestors who may have traveled to the Middle East or
                        Latin America?

                        Having been in a state of war for almost a generation it is
                        suprising how well travelled people were at this time. Actually
                        whole regiments, many of which served in North America, visited
                        places such as Egypt, India and Argentina.

                        >Who is now on Sutler's row?

                        Please see previous postings on the topic of sutlers. There is a
                        wonderful 1790s drawing of one possible person being drummed out of
                        Hyde Park.

                        >It's ancient, it's artistic and would add such a wonderful flair to
                        our events.

                        Yes, so would elephant rides.

                        >I just wonder how it could be appropriate to a British/American war
                        re-enactment. I have an inkling it isn't - but I really want to
                        discover it is!

                        Professor Hobbes has made an appropriate comment to this in his last
                        paragraph.

                        Thankyou so much for your interest in our hobby and area of study
                        though I do feel the Society for Creative Anachronism is more likely
                        fit for your interests.

                        Cheers,

                        Len







                        The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

                        Unit Contact information for North America:
                        ---------------------------------
                        Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                        http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                        American Forces Unit Lisiting
                        http://usforces1812.tripod.com



                        ---------------------------------
                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                        To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/

                        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        http://mail.yahoo.com

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • PETER CATLEY
                        On this Tim and I agree! as far as I recall Becky didn t visit India in the original novel, that was a Bollywood add on for the spectacular effect allong eith
                        Message 11 of 29 , May 2, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On this Tim and I agree! as far as I recall Becky
                          didn't visit India in the original novel, that was a
                          Bollywood add on for the spectacular effect allong
                          eith the Russett Rangers.

                          Cheers

                          P**

                          --- BritcomHMP@... wrote:
                          ---------------------------------

                          In a message dated 5/2/05 3:50:44 PM,
                          ciefranche21e@... writes:


                          > I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from
                          Vanity
                          > Fair as an example. ;-) Been too long since I read
                          the book, but the movie
                          > certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.
                          >

                          I would imagine that cinematic representation would be
                          about a accurate as
                          the military bits of that opus Mike!

                          Cheers

                          Tim


                          Timothy Pickles
                          1100 Rue Chartres
                          New Orleans
                          Louisiana 70116
                          Tel & Fax: 504 522 4822
                          Mobile: 504 236 7130



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the
                          fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America,
                          hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square
                          miles...

                          Unit Contact information for North America:
                          ---------------------------------
                          Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                          http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                          American Forces Unit Lisiting
                          http://usforces1812.tripod.com



                          ---------------------------------
                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                          To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/

                          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                          Terms of Service.
                        • Angela Gottfred
                          ... Yes, I think they got confused with Italy. They both begin with an I , you see. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred
                          Message 12 of 29 , May 3, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            > as far as I recall Becky
                            > didn't visit India in the original novel, that was a
                            > Bollywood add on for the spectacular effect along

                            Yes, I think they got confused with Italy. They both begin with an "I", you see.

                            Your humble & obedient servant,
                            Angela Gottfred
                          • suthren@magma.ca
                            Dear Angela I hope you will proceed with your efforts to recreate the possible appearance and repertoire of a raisa of baladi as she might have appeared in
                            Message 13 of 29 , May 3, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Dear Angela

                              I hope you will proceed with your efforts to recreate the possible
                              appearance and repertoire of a 'raisa' of 'baladi' as she might have
                              appeared in the 1790s-1815 timeframe. True, it has little to do with the
                              largely military focus of the majority of our re-enactment activity, nor was
                              it likely an art form or entertainment seen on the Upper Canadian or
                              Michigan frontier. It nonetheless would add a flash of color from the wider
                              Napoleonic world that the Invasion of Egypt and the Turkish fascination of
                              the age so represent, and which must have touched our shores in one way or
                              another.

                              The Naval Establishment, Crown Forces North America, wishes to extend an
                              invitation to you to be a respected guest of the Naval Encampment at any
                              time.

                              Vic Suthren
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Angela Gottfred" <agottfre@...>
                              To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 8:59 AM
                              Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance


                              > > as far as I recall Becky
                              > > didn't visit India in the original novel, that was a
                              > > Bollywood add on for the spectacular effect along
                              >
                              > Yes, I think they got confused with Italy. They both begin with an "I",
                              you see.
                              >
                              > Your humble & obedient servant,
                              > Angela Gottfred
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                              square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                              square miles...
                              >
                              > Unit Contact information for North America:
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                              > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                              >
                              > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                              > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --
                              > No virus found in this incoming message.
                              > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                              > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/05
                              >
                              >
                            • bmitcheca
                              Hi Angela, Here is another site that I have just registered with that could give you some of the historical references that you were looking for.
                              Message 14 of 29 , May 3, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi Angela,

                                Here is another site that I have just registered with that could give
                                you some of the historical references that you were looking for.

                                www.milescopeland.net/bellydance/home/

                                I am a sutler as well and it would be great speaking with you about
                                this great hobby.

                                Beth Mitchell
                              • HQ93rd@aol.com
                                ... Just what I was about to say! So when are we having an Egypt event? (NOT actually IN Egypt, mind!) B 93rd SHRoFLHU 93rdhighlanders.com THE Thin Red Line
                                Message 15 of 29 , May 4, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  In a message dated 2/05/2005 7:32:08 AM, suthren@... writes:


                                  > But I'd risk the
                                  > thought that it would be colourful and an addition, even if more the
                                  > atmosphere of Napoleon's campaign in Egypt than William Henry Harrison
                                  > pursuing Tecumseh.....
                                  >

                                  Just what I was about to say!
                                  So when are we having an Egypt event? (NOT actually IN Egypt, mind!)

                                  B
                                  93rd SHRoFLHU
                                  93rdhighlanders.com
                                  THE Thin Red Line


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • ray hobbs
                                  Dear Thin :-) My archaeological expedition for six years was at Tel Dor, Israel. It used to be known as Tanturah, and was one of the sites of a pause in
                                  Message 16 of 29 , May 4, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Dear Thin :-)
                                    My archaeological expedition for six years was at Tel Dor, Israel. It
                                    used to be known as Tanturah, and was one of the sites of a pause in
                                    Nappy's journey back to Egypt after Acre.
                                    In the museum at the site there are numerous encrusted cannons and
                                    muskets, a few sabres and other swords as well. Many were found on the
                                    seabed by the underwater team from the University of Haifa, others were
                                    found on site and had been buried for 180 years.
                                    Now this ain't Egypt today, but when Napoleon went through it was
                                    governed by Egypt as a province of the Ottoman Empire.
                                    I would love to see a battle or skirmish over land that has seen
                                    thousands of years of civilisation and warfare - and hot! Talk about
                                    hot! 40 Celsius by midday onsite (for those still using Fahrenheit -
                                    very hot). Wool uniforms - just what was needed.
                                    Egypt today - India tomorrow, and then the Fever isles - now that would
                                    be reenacting!
                                    Ray H
                                    41st Foot




                                    On Wednesday, May 4, 2005, at 03:10 PM, HQ93rd@... wrote:

                                    >
                                    > In a message dated 2/05/2005 7:32:08 AM, suthren@... writes:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > But I'd risk the
                                    > > thought that it would be colourful and an addition, even if more the
                                    > > atmosphere of Napoleon's campaign in Egypt than William Henry
                                    > Harrison
                                    > > pursuing Tecumseh.....
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > Just what I was about to say!
                                    > So when are we having an Egypt event? (NOT actually IN Egypt, mind!)
                                    >
                                    > B
                                    > 93rd SHRoFLHU
                                    > 93rdhighlanders.com
                                    > THE Thin Red Line
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
                                    > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
                                    > THOUSANDS of square miles...
                                    >
                                    > Unit Contact information for North America:
                                    > �� ---------------------------------
                                    > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                    > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                                    >
                                    > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                                    > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    <image.tiff>
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
                                    > �
                                    > � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > �
                                    > � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • lalozon
                                    From: ray hobbs ... I would love to see a battle or skirmish over land that has seen thousands of years of civilisation and
                                    Message 17 of 29 , May 4, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      From: "ray hobbs" <ray.hobbs@...>



                                      " ... I would love to see a battle or skirmish over land that has seen
                                      thousands of years of civilisation and warfare - and hot! Talk about hot!
                                      40 Celsius by midday onsite (for those still using Fahrenheit - very
                                      hot)...




                                      For my American friends that's 104 Fahrenheit!

                                      40 Celsius = 104 Fahrenheit

                                      But it is a dry heat ...

                                      similar to putting one's head in the oven !


                                      L2
                                    • ray hobbs
                                      L2 Not a dry heat - very, very humid on the coast. Prevailing west wind from the Mediterranean Sea. More like being boiled in a pan. ... RH
                                      Message 18 of 29 , May 4, 2005
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        L2
                                        Not a dry heat - very, very humid on the coast. Prevailing west wind
                                        from the Mediterranean Sea.
                                        More like being boiled in a pan.
                                        :-)
                                        RH


                                        On Wednesday, May 4, 2005, at 06:03 PM, lalozon wrote:

                                        > From: "ray hobbs" <ray.hobbs@...>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > " ... I would love to see a battle or skirmish over land that has seen
                                        > thousands of years of civilisation and warfare - and hot! Talk about
                                        > hot!
                                        > 40 Celsius by midday onsite (for those still using Fahrenheit - very
                                        > hot)...
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > For my American friends that's 104 Fahrenheit!
                                        >
                                        > 40 Celsius = 104 Fahrenheit
                                        >
                                        > But it is a dry heat ...
                                        >
                                        > similar to putting one's head in the oven !
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > L2
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
                                        > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
                                        > THOUSANDS of square miles...
                                        >
                                        > Unit Contact information for North America:
                                        > ---------------------------------
                                        > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                        > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                                        >
                                        > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                                        > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Angela
                                        G Day Folks, Well, I m tickled right pink! My husband has finally decided to join me in a re-enactment event this summer. He and our three children will be
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jul 16, 2005
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          G'Day Folks,

                                          Well, I'm tickled right pink! My husband has finally decided to join me in a re-enactment event this summer. He and our three children will be accompanying me on Sutler's Row at Wasaga Beach. After three years of pestering him, I really want him to enjoy this as the family event I've worked it up to being.

                                          Our three children are ages 2, 5 and 8. This was a last minute decision and there's no time to order and games via Jas Townsend or the like. Does anyone have any suggestions for games for us and the children? My husband is handy with woodwork and he'd have no problem whipping something up in time - I just haven't seen many family games around camp so am at a loss for ideas. My Google searches aren't helping much at all, unfortunately!

                                          Regards,

                                          Angela Bourbonnais (who's speed sewing their costumes)


                                          __________________________________________________
                                          Do You Yahoo!?
                                          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                          http://mail.yahoo.com

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Peter Monahan
                                          Angela In addition to the Squire s suggestion, a skipping rope made of real rope and/or a rag stuffed ball (of leather orm cloth)would be appropriate for any
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jul 17, 2005
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Angela

                                            In addition to the Squire's suggestion, a skipping rope made of real rope and/or a rag stuffed ball (of leather orm cloth)would be appropriate for any age. A cutout wooden musket or pistol, while not "PC" in 2005 terms is very appropriate for 1812 and popular with all ages. In a pinch, crooked branches work too!

                                            You can probably recruit some olders as "sitters" who mwould take the littlers ona tour of the camp to meet the dogs and other kids too. Ask when you check in which families are there. Most of our young adults are very responsible that way! Hope to see you there.

                                            Peter Monahan,
                                            Royal Nfld Reg't

                                            =========================================================
                                            From: Angela <deedle_momof3@...>
                                            Date: 2005/07/16 Sat PM 03:17:08 EST
                                            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [WarOf1812] Family Games?


                                            G'Day Folks,

                                            Well, I'm tickled right pink! My husband has finally decided to join me in a re-enactment event this summer. He and our three children will be accompanying me on Sutler's Row at Wasaga Beach. After three years of pestering him, I really want him to enjoy this as the family event I've worked it up to being.

                                            Our three children are ages 2, 5 and 8. This was a last minute decision and there's no time to order and games via Jas Townsend or the like. Does anyone have any suggestions for games for us and the children? My husband is handy with woodwork and he'd have no problem whipping something up in time - I just haven't seen many family games around camp so am at a loss for ideas. My Google searches aren't helping much at all, unfortunately!

                                            Regards,

                                            Angela Bourbonnais (who's speed sewing their costumes)


                                            __________________________________________________
                                            Do You Yahoo!?
                                            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                            http://mail.yahoo.com

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                            The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

                                            Unit Contact information for North America:
                                            ---------------------------------
                                            Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                            http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                                            American Forces Unit Listing
                                            http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                                            Yahoo! Groups Links





                                            ============================================================


                                            Peter Monahan
                                            petermonahan@...
                                            705-435-0953 home
                                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.