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Re: [WarOf1812] Re: Bellydance

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  • Angela
    Excellent, Amy! This is exactly the type of information I was looking for. Thank you so much! Cheers, Angela ... suitable to the 1812 period, but can t find
    Message 1 of 29 , May 2 12:28 PM
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      Excellent, Amy! This is exactly the type of information I was looking for.

      Thank you so much!

      Cheers,
      Angela

      elisabeth687 <acoddington@...> wrote:
      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Angela <deedle_momof3@y...> wrote:

      > I have been trying to find whether or not bellydance would be
      suitable to the 1812 period, but can't find any information. I
      realize it's not typical, but it is authentic? I mean, would there be
      any possibility that there'd have been a woman or her ancestors who
      may have traveled to the Middle East or Latin America? Who is now on
      Sutler's row?

      Well, there were persons of European descent who were captured into
      slavery in the Ottoman Empire; some were women and some were American
      (I don't know if any were American women)--I seem to recall that's
      where the "shores of Tripoly" came into the Marine's history, which
      would seem to put it at the right era--and some were subsequently
      ransomed and went back home. Another possibility would be the wife of
      a diplomat who lived in the Middle East--think Lady Montague and her
      accounts of Turkey.

      There have been several books published in the last year or so with
      articles on Ottoman history and at least one had several articles on
      slavery in the Ottoman Empire. Unfortunately, I can't locate the
      title right now; taking a quick look, I see that I.B. Tauris has
      published several books on different aspects of Turkish history--try
      looking up that publisher's website.

      --Amy C.







      The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

      Unit Contact information for North America:
      ---------------------------------
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      http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

      American Forces Unit Lisiting
      http://usforces1812.tripod.com



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    • suthren@magma.ca
      ... From: Angela To: Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:18 PM Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance ... about.
      Message 2 of 29 , May 2 1:00 PM
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Angela" <deedle_momof3@...>
        To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:18 PM
        Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance


        > That was one of my first concerns, Angela - an one I'd like to learn more
        about.
        >
        > Costuming can be made as demure as entire coverage from collar bone to
        ankle, or even just the eyes, hands and feet exposed; dance styles vary from
        sensuous to energetic and geared towards all members of the family.
        >
        > I'd really love to check out some resources if available on the subject.
        If bellydance would be appropriate - in which form? Where? When? What style
        of costuming, exactly? I could make educated assumptions on the topic, but
        I'd really rather not assume.
        >
        > I guess I'm thinking that if it was appropriate in the Cavalier period
        (let's remember those Victorian era "prudes")!... it'd make sense that it
        "may" be suitable to our re-enactments in some form or another as well.
        >
        > Where to start! I haven't a clue...
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Angela Bourbonnais
        >
        > Angela Gottfred <agottfre@...> wrote:
        > >Do you
        > > think that a 'Bellydancer'
        > > would spice up the Crown Forces Corps of Drums presentation at events
        > > or a dull Officer's Mess ....... :^)
        >
        > I would've thought that bellydance would be quite scandalous by period
        > standards, so it would be most suitable for a gentleman's after-hours
        > entertainment...Like, say, at the Beaver Club or other, less-genteel
        > establishments (be they permanent or temporary). It's the kind of thing
        that
        > might also have a veneer of respectability, since it is a true depiction
        of an
        > exotic cultural practice (thinking of Mata Hari's dancing, a century
        later) .
        >
        > The other Angela,
        > Your humble & obedient servant,
        > Angela Gottfred
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
        square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
        square miles...
        >
        > Unit Contact information for North America:
        > ---------------------------------
        > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
        > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
        >
        > American Forces Unit Lisiting
        > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        >
        >
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        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
        square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
        square miles...
        >
        > Unit Contact information for North America:
        > ---------------------------------
        > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
        > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
        >
        > American Forces Unit Lisiting
        > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • suthren@magma.ca
        Dear Angela With respect to prudishness in the neoclassical era, I think if anything it was a far more libertine era than the stifling Victorian era which
        Message 3 of 29 , May 2 1:13 PM
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          Dear Angela

          With respect to prudishness in the neoclassical era, I think if anything it
          was a far more libertine era than the stifling Victorian era which followed,
          in which grandparents who had lived much more freely (in relative terms) in
          the Revolutionary/Napoleonic/Regency era were forced to live with a sense of
          nostalgia and enforced guilt amidst far more restrained, prudish and
          inhibited children and grandchildren. You might recall it was as well the
          era of Emma Hamilton and her 'attitudes' in thin Grecian drapery, and the
          charming Empire gowns that shocked later Victorians with their revealing
          styles. As mentioned, your persona could likely be either a
          Turkish/Levantine woman attached to a musician, or indeed a European woman
          having involuntarily experienced Middle Eastern culture; either way, I would
          think it would be a charming addition to the encampments, adding grace and a
          touch of the color and romance which always has been part of our Napoleonic,
          recreated world....

          Vic Suthren
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Angela" <deedle_momof3@...>
          To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:18 PM
          Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance


          > That was one of my first concerns, Angela - an one I'd like to learn more
          about.
          >
          > Costuming can be made as demure as entire coverage from collar bone to
          ankle, or even just the eyes, hands and feet exposed; dance styles vary from
          sensuous to energetic and geared towards all members of the family.
          >
          > I'd really love to check out some resources if available on the subject.
          If bellydance would be appropriate - in which form? Where? When? What style
          of costuming, exactly? I could make educated assumptions on the topic, but
          I'd really rather not assume.
          >
          > I guess I'm thinking that if it was appropriate in the Cavalier period
          (let's remember those Victorian era "prudes")!... it'd make sense that it
          "may" be suitable to our re-enactments in some form or another as well.
          >
          > Where to start! I haven't a clue...
          >
          > Cheers,
          > Angela Bourbonnais
          >
          > Angela Gottfred <agottfre@...> wrote:
          > >Do you
          > > think that a 'Bellydancer'
          > > would spice up the Crown Forces Corps of Drums presentation at events
          > > or a dull Officer's Mess ....... :^)
          >
          > I would've thought that bellydance would be quite scandalous by period
          > standards, so it would be most suitable for a gentleman's after-hours
          > entertainment...Like, say, at the Beaver Club or other, less-genteel
          > establishments (be they permanent or temporary). It's the kind of thing
          that
          > might also have a veneer of respectability, since it is a true depiction
          of an
          > exotic cultural practice (thinking of Mata Hari's dancing, a century
          later) .
          >
          > The other Angela,
          > Your humble & obedient servant,
          > Angela Gottfred
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
          square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
          square miles...
          >
          > Unit Contact information for North America:
          > ---------------------------------
          > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
          > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
          >
          > American Forces Unit Lisiting
          > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          > http://mail.yahoo.com
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
          square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
          square miles...
          >
          > Unit Contact information for North America:
          > ---------------------------------
          > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
          > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
          >
          > American Forces Unit Lisiting
          > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
          > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/05
          >
          >
        • PEGGY Mathews
          And let us not forget the influence of those coming from or going to India. Exotic/erotic dance was imported from there, though not necessarily for polite
          Message 4 of 29 , May 2 1:49 PM
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            And let us not forget the influence of those coming from or going to India.
            Exotic/erotic dance was imported from there, though not necessarily for
            "polite" society. I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from Vanity
            Fair as an example. ;-) Been too long since I read the book, but the movie
            certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.

            Michael Mathews



            "The opportunity for brotherhood presents itself every time you meet a human
            being." - Jane Wyman




            >From: <suthren@...>
            >Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            >To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
            >Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Bellydance
            >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:13:29 -0400
            >
            >Dear Angela
            >
            >With respect to prudishness in the neoclassical era, I think if anything it
            >was a far more libertine era than the stifling Victorian era which
            >followed,
            >in which grandparents who had lived much more freely (in relative terms) in
            >the Revolutionary/Napoleonic/Regency era were forced to live with a sense
            >of
            >nostalgia and enforced guilt amidst far more restrained, prudish and
            >inhibited children and grandchildren. You might recall it was as well the
            >era of Emma Hamilton and her 'attitudes' in thin Grecian drapery, and the
            >charming Empire gowns that shocked later Victorians with their revealing
            >styles. As mentioned, your persona could likely be either a
            >Turkish/Levantine woman attached to a musician, or indeed a European woman
            >having involuntarily experienced Middle Eastern culture; either way, I
            >would
            >think it would be a charming addition to the encampments, adding grace and
            >a
            >touch of the color and romance which always has been part of our
            >Napoleonic,
            >recreated world....
            >
            >Vic Suthren
            >----- Original Message -----
            >From: "Angela" <deedle_momof3@...>
            >To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
            >Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:18 PM
            >Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance
            >
            >
            > > That was one of my first concerns, Angela - an one I'd like to learn
            >more
            >about.
            > >
            > > Costuming can be made as demure as entire coverage from collar bone to
            >ankle, or even just the eyes, hands and feet exposed; dance styles vary
            >from
            >sensuous to energetic and geared towards all members of the family.
            > >
            > > I'd really love to check out some resources if available on the subject.
            >If bellydance would be appropriate - in which form? Where? When? What style
            >of costuming, exactly? I could make educated assumptions on the topic, but
            >I'd really rather not assume.
            > >
            > > I guess I'm thinking that if it was appropriate in the Cavalier period
            >(let's remember those Victorian era "prudes")!... it'd make sense that it
            >"may" be suitable to our re-enactments in some form or another as well.
            > >
            > > Where to start! I haven't a clue...
            > >
            > > Cheers,
            > > Angela Bourbonnais
            > >
            (snip)
          • ray hobbs
            I ll throw my two cents worth in here. This for a couple of reasons, [1] as an historian and [2] as the father of a daughter who takes bellydancing lessons.
            Message 5 of 29 , May 2 2:15 PM
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              I'll throw my two cents' worth in here. This for a couple of reasons,
              [1] as an historian and [2] as the father of a daughter who takes
              bellydancing lessons. She has no intention of performing it, but what
              she has learned has dispelled some of the mythology of the craft.

              First - it is quite possible, even probable that in the Regency period
              oriental dancing became popular in places like Vauxhall Gardens. As
              several have already pointed out, things "Turkish", or "Mohammetan"
              were very popular at this time. There is even a famous print of two
              "Mohammetans" visiting Vauxhall Gardens in the late 18th century, but
              as visitors, not performers.
              Second - equally as probable is that this art was exploited by the
              clubs and gangs of "Young Turks" (note the epithet) which were
              sprinkled throughout the London and Brighton society of the day.
              Third - whether there was public display in military encampments is
              another matter. Looking at the schedule for the day of the average
              British encamped soldier, I think it highly unlikely that such things
              would be allowed, even by the most liberal-minded commanding officer
              (and they were few!)
              Fourth - as for the officers' mess, as the popular saying has it "What
              happens there, stays there". However, I have read a few first-hand
              descriptions of mess antics, and they seem to me to be rather boring.
              The cost of having such entertainment would probably be prohibitive.
              After all, how many such dancers would there be in Canada, or the US at
              the time?
              Fifth - I have every support for someone who wants to explore all
              aspects of Regency society as an aid to improving our impression. The
              more research the better. However, I have the sneaking feeling that at
              the current state of our knowledge this falls into the category of "If
              it was available, they'd have done it".
              Sixth - Military encampments and barracks were not town fairs.
              Seventh - now whether the Methodists of Ancaster or Saltfleet engaged
              in such entertainment is another matter. After all, they did distill
              some of the best whisky in the Province :-) Come to think of it, Isaac
              Brock thought that Methodist preaching was a "threat to public order
              and safety", Lord knows what he would have thought of belly-dancers.
              Yrs etc.
              Ray Hobbs
              41st Regt.


              On Monday, May 2, 2005, at 04:49 PM, PEGGY Mathews wrote:

              > And let us not forget the influence of those coming from or going to
              > India.�
              > Exotic/erotic dance was imported from there, though not necessarily for
              > "polite" society.� I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from
              > Vanity
              > Fair as an example.� ;-)� Been too long since I read the book, but the
              > movie
              > certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.
              >
              > Michael Mathews
              >
              >
              >
              > "The opportunity for brotherhood presents itself every time you meet a
              > human
              > being." - Jane Wyman
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > >From: <suthren@...>
              > >Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
              > >To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
              > >Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Bellydance
              > >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:13:29 -0400
              > >
              > >Dear Angela
              > >
              > >With respect to prudishness in the neoclassical era, I think if
              > anything it
              > >was a far more libertine era than the stifling Victorian era which
              > >followed,
              > >in which grandparents who had lived much more freely (in relative
              > terms) in
              > >the Revolutionary/Napoleonic/Regency era were forced to live with a
              > sense
              > >of
              > >nostalgia and enforced guilt amidst far more restrained, prudish and
              > >inhibited children and grandchildren. You might recall it was as well
              > the
              > >era of Emma Hamilton and her 'attitudes' in thin Grecian drapery, and
              > the
              > >charming Empire gowns that shocked later Victorians with their
              > revealing
              > >styles. As mentioned, your persona could likely be either a
              > >Turkish/Levantine woman attached to a musician, or indeed a European
              > woman
              > >having involuntarily experienced Middle Eastern culture; either way, I
              > >would
              > >think it would be a charming addition to the encampments, adding
              > grace and
              > >a
              > >touch of the color and romance which always has been part of our
              > >Napoleonic,
              > >recreated world....
              > >
              > >Vic Suthren
              > >----- Original Message -----
              > >From: "Angela" <deedle_momof3@...>
              > >To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
              > >Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:18 PM
              > >Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance
              > >
              > >
              > > > That was one of my first concerns, Angela - an one I'd like to
              > learn
              > >more
              > >about.
              > > >
              > > > Costuming can be made as demure as entire coverage from collar
              > bone to
              > >ankle, or even just the eyes, hands and feet exposed; dance styles
              > vary
              > >from
              > >sensuous to energetic and geared towards all members of the family.
              > > >
              > > > I'd really love to check out some resources if available on the
              > subject.
              > >If bellydance would be appropriate - in which form? Where? When? What
              > style
              > >of costuming, exactly? I could make educated assumptions on the
              > topic, but
              > >I'd really rather not assume.
              > > >
              > > > I guess I'm thinking that if it was appropriate in the Cavalier
              > period
              > >(let's remember those Victorian era "prudes")!... it'd make sense
              > that it
              > >"may" be suitable to our re-enactments in some form or another as
              > well.
              > > >
              > > > Where to start! I haven't a clue...
              > > >
              > > > Cheers,
              > > > Angela Bourbonnais
              > > >
              > (snip)
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
              > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
              > THOUSANDS of square miles...
              >
              > Unit Contact information for North America:
              > �� ---------------------------------
              > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
              > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
              >
              > American Forces Unit Lisiting
              > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
              >
              >
              <image.tiff>
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
              > �
              > � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > �
              > � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • BritcomHMP@aol.com
              ... I would imagine that cinematic representation would be about a accurate as the military bits of that opus Mike! Cheers Tim Timothy Pickles 1100 Rue
              Message 6 of 29 , May 2 3:08 PM
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                In a message dated 5/2/05 3:50:44 PM, ciefranche21e@... writes:


                > I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from Vanity
                > Fair as an example.  ;-)  Been too long since I read the book, but the movie
                > certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.
                >

                I would imagine that cinematic representation would be about a accurate as
                the military bits of that opus Mike!

                Cheers

                Tim


                Timothy Pickles
                1100 Rue Chartres
                New Orleans
                Louisiana 70116
                Tel & Fax: 504 522 4822
                Mobile: 504 236 7130



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Angela
                There we have it... Thank you, Mike! Bellydance is the world s oldest known documented dance form. The fact that it s been tainted as a means of erotic
                Message 7 of 29 , May 2 4:15 PM
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                  There we have it...
                  Thank you, Mike!


                  Bellydance is the world's oldest known documented dance form. The fact that it's been tainted as a means of erotic entertainment for men is the responsibility of Westernized society. The dance was once used to pantomime the sowing and harvesting of crops, to bless and heal, expel demons, to worship deities, to prepare for childbirth and womanhood, and as most of you have come to know it - for secular entertainment.

                  Nobody knows where it originated, but ancient forms of bellydance have been traced to India, Egypt, Turkey, Tunisia, Hungary, Russia, China, Africa, the Caucasus Mountains, Eastern Europe, Russia, Western Europe and Spain. (I'm probably leaving some out here)!

                  For years (B.C.), it's been customary for bellydancers to entertain family at weddings in the Middle East. A dancer would wear a candelbra on her head to light the way for the wedding party (no streetlights then). Family members would (and still do) get up and dance with the dancer. Middle Eastern men bellydance nearly as often as women. (In their masculine version).

                  As a mother of three young children, I assure you that my goal here is not erotic entertainment for the men among us. What I wonder, is that whether or not an ancient artform such as bellydance could have been found in millitary encampments of the 1812 period in Upper Canada. I almost wonder how such an ancient dance from so many corners of the world could not have found a place.

                  Would it have been shunned as something entirely inappropriate? There's no secret that Western society was (and still is) uncomfortable with sensuality. It's unfortunate that so many have a hard time distinguishing feminine sensuality from overt sexuality - but that's a battle I've grown accustomed to defending.

                  Would it have been possible for a (dancing) woman of any stature to be traveling with the millitary for any reason? If so, how? Would such a thing be frowned upon? Why? I'm interested in your opinions, I truly am. But where can I find some accurate details on the subject? Anybody?


                  Respectfully,

                  Angela Bourbonnais



                  BritcomHMP@... wrote:

                  In a message dated 5/2/05 3:50:44 PM, ciefranche21e@... writes:


                  > I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from Vanity
                  > Fair as an example. ;-) Been too long since I read the book, but the movie
                  > certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.
                  >

                  I would imagine that cinematic representation would be about a accurate as
                  the military bits of that opus Mike!

                  Cheers

                  Tim


                  Timothy Pickles
                  1100 Rue Chartres
                  New Orleans
                  Louisiana 70116
                  Tel & Fax: 504 522 4822
                  Mobile: 504 236 7130



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

                  Unit Contact information for North America:
                  ---------------------------------
                  Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                  http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                  American Forces Unit Lisiting
                  http://usforces1812.tripod.com



                  ---------------------------------
                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/

                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                • Phil Graf
                  My advice on the matter would would be to emphasize researching what was, before resorting to what could have been. Just because something may have been
                  Message 8 of 29 , May 2 4:23 PM
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                    My advice on the matter would would be to emphasize researching what was, before resorting to what could have been. Just because something may have been possible does not mean it was actually done.

                    Phil G.
                    Fifth - I have every support for someone who wants to explore all
                    aspects of Regency society as an aid to improving our impression. The
                    more research the better. However, I have the sneaking feeling that at
                    the current state of our knowledge this falls into the category of "If
                    it was available, they'd have done it".

                    Yrs etc.
                    Ray Hobbs
                    41st Regt.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • mccombs98
                    Angela, A can t comment on bellydancing in Upper Canada, but let s look a little closer. I have reference to an Anglican Minister from York visiting the
                    Message 9 of 29 , May 2 4:50 PM
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                      Angela,
                      A can't comment on "bellydancing" in Upper Canada, but let's look a
                      little closer.
                      I have reference to an Anglican Minister from York visiting the Detroit
                      region in 1793 where he observed MPP William McComb dancing pagan
                      dances with the natives. His letter expresses outrage at the sight
                      (little would he know that this was the annual Fete of the early
                      NWCo.). The Macomb and Edgars of Detroit were invested in the China
                      Trade by 1788, so the question to ponder is whether they brought back
                      any visiting foreign "dignataries" and/or entourage?
                      Considering that the Anglican Church was the only sanctioned and
                      official church in Upper Canada at that time, a phantom "bellydancer"
                      would most definately not meet with approval in the community at large.
                      However having said that, someone else has commented that it was the
                      Victorian age that brought us the common perception of English
                      prudishness. The Regency period was full of rogues, drinking, and
                      experiencing the good life and all the wonderous discoveries the world
                      had to offer. To the adventurous soul, this was akin to a scientific
                      experiment.
                      Just a thought.
                      Murray.


                      >
                      > Would it have been shunned as something entirely inappropriate? There's no secret that Western society was (and still is) uncomfortable with sensuality. It's unfortunate that so many have a hard time distinguishing feminine sensuality from overt sexuality - but that's a battle I've grown accustomed to defending.
                    • elisabeth687
                      ... be traveling with the millitary for any reason? If so, how? Would such a thing be frowned upon? Why? I m interested in your opinions, I truly am. But where
                      Message 10 of 29 , May 2 5:45 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Angela <deedle_momof3@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Would it have been possible for a (dancing) woman of any stature to
                        be traveling with the millitary for any reason? If so, how? Would such
                        a thing be frowned upon? Why? I'm interested in your opinions, I truly
                        am. But where can I find some accurate details on the subject? Anybody?

                        Emma Hamilton has been mentioned, as a woman performing what might
                        have been considered inappropriate "Attitudes" in private for her
                        husband and his guests. Another wife might have Turkish dance talents;
                        I doubt a wife connected with the military would perform publicly,
                        although if her husband was dead, she might need a source of income.

                        For your earlier query about clothing: I did look into late 18th
                        century Turkish costume some years ago and have been trying to
                        remember what I found with only mediocre success. Folkwear
                        (www.folkwear.com) has two patterns that look like reasonable starting
                        points and both have received good reviews on The Great Pattern Review
                        at gbacg.org: Turkish Dancer (108) includes the entari and a vest and
                        short jacket and Sarouelles (119) has shalwar trousers. I don't know
                        where you'd find a pattern for the shift but you might be able to fake
                        it, given a decent description--try for a quote of Lady Mary Wortley
                        Montagu's comments on her Turkish clothing; it's quite detailed,
                        although it's a century too early. There is a chapter on fancy dress
                        including oriental costume in Aileen Ribeiro's The Art of Dress:
                        Fashion in England and France, 1750-1820 which reproduces several
                        paintings of rich ladies in Turkish-inspired costume. There is also a
                        very well-illustrated book called Historical Costume of Turkish Women
                        (Nisantasi, Istanbul: Middle East Video Corp., 1986) that you might be
                        able to get through ILL. I don't think any of the costumes therein
                        date back to 1812, but you might be able to use it for ideas and
                        confirm with research. I know I've seen other books on historic Middle
                        Eastern costume, but it's been a few years and I'm having trouble
                        finding specific titles. I see several perfect books in Library of
                        Congress' catalog, if you live close to DC, but as they have
                        publication dates of 1819 and 1820 I doubt LC would send them anywhere
                        (you can try going to catalog.loc.gov and searching by call number at
                        GT1370 and following to see books on Middle Eastern costume or
                        searching subject headings to get an idea of what has been available
                        in this or other areas of interest).

                        --Amy C.
                      • Len Heidebrecht
                        Hello Angela, I have a few thoughts to add here. ... bellydance. Yes, it is quite a distance off. ... Neither the Dark Ages Society, nor Regia Angoreum have
                        Message 11 of 29 , May 2 5:55 PM
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                          Hello Angela, I have a few thoughts to add here.

                          > I have an off the beaten path question here about bellydance. Yes,
                          bellydance.

                          Yes, it is quite a distance off.

                          > Last year I was asked to take part in a medieval re-enactment.

                          Neither the Dark Ages Society, nor Regia Angoreum have such a style
                          of dance, so this must have been the Society for Creative
                          Anachronism.

                          >During that event, there were some bellydancers performing and I
                          was awestruck and taken with the artform immediately!

                          Fantastic. As a dancer myself, I'm always pleased to see someone
                          discovering new forms of the art and the ability to express oneself;
                          though how anyone over the age of six has not ever been subjected to
                          bellydance in some form, is beyond me.

                          > This last year I've been recruited by two local professional
                          troupes and am now performing in restaurants and theatre events.

                          I wish you well in your chosen profession.

                          >Therefore, I'm calling upon anyone who is versed on bellydance in
                          its original form and has appropriate resources for me to research
                          the topic.

                          There are a number of professional researchers on this list who
                          would (for a given and oft quoted hourly fee) spend a great deal of
                          time looking for this information.

                          > I have been trying to find whether or not bellydance would be
                          suitable to the 1812 period, but can't find any information.

                          There is, to my mind at least one possible reason for this.

                          >I realize it's not typical, but it is authentic?

                          No, I am certain that it is not a typical form of entertainment to
                          be found in a reputable camp. I'm sure someone would have mentioned
                          it, Lt John le Couteur being the most likely.

                          >I mean, would there be any possibility that there'd have been a
                          woman or her ancestors who may have traveled to the Middle East or
                          Latin America?

                          Having been in a state of war for almost a generation it is
                          suprising how well travelled people were at this time. Actually
                          whole regiments, many of which served in North America, visited
                          places such as Egypt, India and Argentina.

                          >Who is now on Sutler's row?

                          Please see previous postings on the topic of sutlers. There is a
                          wonderful 1790s drawing of one possible person being drummed out of
                          Hyde Park.

                          >It's ancient, it's artistic and would add such a wonderful flair to
                          our events.

                          Yes, so would elephant rides.

                          >I just wonder how it could be appropriate to a British/American war
                          re-enactment. I have an inkling it isn't - but I really want to
                          discover it is!

                          Professor Hobbes has made an appropriate comment to this in his last
                          paragraph.

                          Thankyou so much for your interest in our hobby and area of study
                          though I do feel the Society for Creative Anachronism is more likely
                          fit for your interests.

                          Cheers,

                          Len
                        • Angela
                          Dearest Len, I m not sure whether or not you meant your post to be informative or humorous, but I found it insulting. As far as professions go, I am a Systems
                          Message 12 of 29 , May 2 6:30 PM
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                            Dearest Len,

                            I'm not sure whether or not you meant your post to be informative or humorous, but I found it insulting.

                            As far as professions go, I am a Systems Analyst.

                            As for the SCA being an outlet for my re-enacting interests, this will be my third year on sutler's row as a chandler and soap boiler. I'm still fairly new, but have taken a good deal of time, effort, research and expense to portray myself with historical accuracy. I've made errors and take pride enough to fix the mistakes I've made. Odds are - I'll make more, but each year will be better than the last.

                            I suppose I could go beyond these statements in the name of defensiveness, but speaking respectfully to others has always been a quality of mine. For a small fee, I may entertain the idea of sharing a little lesson or two with you on how to speak to others as equals.

                            In the meantime; happy re-enacting.


                            Regards,
                            Angela Bourbonnais




                            Len Heidebrecht <lheidebrecht@...> wrote:
                            Hello Angela, I have a few thoughts to add here.

                            > I have an off the beaten path question here about bellydance. Yes,
                            bellydance.

                            Yes, it is quite a distance off.

                            > Last year I was asked to take part in a medieval re-enactment.

                            Neither the Dark Ages Society, nor Regia Angoreum have such a style
                            of dance, so this must have been the Society for Creative
                            Anachronism.

                            >During that event, there were some bellydancers performing and I
                            was awestruck and taken with the artform immediately!

                            Fantastic. As a dancer myself, I'm always pleased to see someone
                            discovering new forms of the art and the ability to express oneself;
                            though how anyone over the age of six has not ever been subjected to
                            bellydance in some form, is beyond me.

                            > This last year I've been recruited by two local professional
                            troupes and am now performing in restaurants and theatre events.

                            I wish you well in your chosen profession.

                            >Therefore, I'm calling upon anyone who is versed on bellydance in
                            its original form and has appropriate resources for me to research
                            the topic.

                            There are a number of professional researchers on this list who
                            would (for a given and oft quoted hourly fee) spend a great deal of
                            time looking for this information.

                            > I have been trying to find whether or not bellydance would be
                            suitable to the 1812 period, but can't find any information.

                            There is, to my mind at least one possible reason for this.

                            >I realize it's not typical, but it is authentic?

                            No, I am certain that it is not a typical form of entertainment to
                            be found in a reputable camp. I'm sure someone would have mentioned
                            it, Lt John le Couteur being the most likely.

                            >I mean, would there be any possibility that there'd have been a
                            woman or her ancestors who may have traveled to the Middle East or
                            Latin America?

                            Having been in a state of war for almost a generation it is
                            suprising how well travelled people were at this time. Actually
                            whole regiments, many of which served in North America, visited
                            places such as Egypt, India and Argentina.

                            >Who is now on Sutler's row?

                            Please see previous postings on the topic of sutlers. There is a
                            wonderful 1790s drawing of one possible person being drummed out of
                            Hyde Park.

                            >It's ancient, it's artistic and would add such a wonderful flair to
                            our events.

                            Yes, so would elephant rides.

                            >I just wonder how it could be appropriate to a British/American war
                            re-enactment. I have an inkling it isn't - but I really want to
                            discover it is!

                            Professor Hobbes has made an appropriate comment to this in his last
                            paragraph.

                            Thankyou so much for your interest in our hobby and area of study
                            though I do feel the Society for Creative Anachronism is more likely
                            fit for your interests.

                            Cheers,

                            Len







                            The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

                            Unit Contact information for North America:
                            ---------------------------------
                            Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                            http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                            American Forces Unit Lisiting
                            http://usforces1812.tripod.com



                            ---------------------------------
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                          • PETER CATLEY
                            On this Tim and I agree! as far as I recall Becky didn t visit India in the original novel, that was a Bollywood add on for the spectacular effect allong eith
                            Message 13 of 29 , May 2 11:39 PM
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                              On this Tim and I agree! as far as I recall Becky
                              didn't visit India in the original novel, that was a
                              Bollywood add on for the spectacular effect allong
                              eith the Russett Rangers.

                              Cheers

                              P**

                              --- BritcomHMP@... wrote:
                              ---------------------------------

                              In a message dated 5/2/05 3:50:44 PM,
                              ciefranche21e@... writes:


                              > I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from
                              Vanity
                              > Fair as an example. ;-) Been too long since I read
                              the book, but the movie
                              > certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.
                              >

                              I would imagine that cinematic representation would be
                              about a accurate as
                              the military bits of that opus Mike!

                              Cheers

                              Tim


                              Timothy Pickles
                              1100 Rue Chartres
                              New Orleans
                              Louisiana 70116
                              Tel & Fax: 504 522 4822
                              Mobile: 504 236 7130



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                              The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the
                              fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America,
                              hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square
                              miles...

                              Unit Contact information for North America:
                              ---------------------------------
                              Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                              http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                              American Forces Unit Lisiting
                              http://usforces1812.tripod.com



                              ---------------------------------
                              Yahoo! Groups Links

                              To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/

                              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                              Terms of Service.
                            • Angela Gottfred
                              ... Yes, I think they got confused with Italy. They both begin with an I , you see. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred
                              Message 14 of 29 , May 3 5:59 AM
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                                > as far as I recall Becky
                                > didn't visit India in the original novel, that was a
                                > Bollywood add on for the spectacular effect along

                                Yes, I think they got confused with Italy. They both begin with an "I", you see.

                                Your humble & obedient servant,
                                Angela Gottfred
                              • suthren@magma.ca
                                Dear Angela I hope you will proceed with your efforts to recreate the possible appearance and repertoire of a raisa of baladi as she might have appeared in
                                Message 15 of 29 , May 3 6:29 AM
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                                  Dear Angela

                                  I hope you will proceed with your efforts to recreate the possible
                                  appearance and repertoire of a 'raisa' of 'baladi' as she might have
                                  appeared in the 1790s-1815 timeframe. True, it has little to do with the
                                  largely military focus of the majority of our re-enactment activity, nor was
                                  it likely an art form or entertainment seen on the Upper Canadian or
                                  Michigan frontier. It nonetheless would add a flash of color from the wider
                                  Napoleonic world that the Invasion of Egypt and the Turkish fascination of
                                  the age so represent, and which must have touched our shores in one way or
                                  another.

                                  The Naval Establishment, Crown Forces North America, wishes to extend an
                                  invitation to you to be a respected guest of the Naval Encampment at any
                                  time.

                                  Vic Suthren
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Angela Gottfred" <agottfre@...>
                                  To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 8:59 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance


                                  > > as far as I recall Becky
                                  > > didn't visit India in the original novel, that was a
                                  > > Bollywood add on for the spectacular effect along
                                  >
                                  > Yes, I think they got confused with Italy. They both begin with an "I",
                                  you see.
                                  >
                                  > Your humble & obedient servant,
                                  > Angela Gottfred
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                                  square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                                  square miles...
                                  >
                                  > Unit Contact information for North America:
                                  > ---------------------------------
                                  > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                  > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                                  >
                                  > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                                  > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                  > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                  > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/05
                                  >
                                  >
                                • bmitcheca
                                  Hi Angela, Here is another site that I have just registered with that could give you some of the historical references that you were looking for.
                                  Message 16 of 29 , May 3 8:12 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Angela,

                                    Here is another site that I have just registered with that could give
                                    you some of the historical references that you were looking for.

                                    www.milescopeland.net/bellydance/home/

                                    I am a sutler as well and it would be great speaking with you about
                                    this great hobby.

                                    Beth Mitchell
                                  • HQ93rd@aol.com
                                    ... Just what I was about to say! So when are we having an Egypt event? (NOT actually IN Egypt, mind!) B 93rd SHRoFLHU 93rdhighlanders.com THE Thin Red Line
                                    Message 17 of 29 , May 4 12:10 PM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      In a message dated 2/05/2005 7:32:08 AM, suthren@... writes:


                                      > But I'd risk the
                                      > thought that it would be colourful and an addition, even if more the
                                      > atmosphere of Napoleon's campaign in Egypt than William Henry Harrison
                                      > pursuing Tecumseh.....
                                      >

                                      Just what I was about to say!
                                      So when are we having an Egypt event? (NOT actually IN Egypt, mind!)

                                      B
                                      93rd SHRoFLHU
                                      93rdhighlanders.com
                                      THE Thin Red Line


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • ray hobbs
                                      Dear Thin :-) My archaeological expedition for six years was at Tel Dor, Israel. It used to be known as Tanturah, and was one of the sites of a pause in
                                      Message 18 of 29 , May 4 2:59 PM
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                                        Dear Thin :-)
                                        My archaeological expedition for six years was at Tel Dor, Israel. It
                                        used to be known as Tanturah, and was one of the sites of a pause in
                                        Nappy's journey back to Egypt after Acre.
                                        In the museum at the site there are numerous encrusted cannons and
                                        muskets, a few sabres and other swords as well. Many were found on the
                                        seabed by the underwater team from the University of Haifa, others were
                                        found on site and had been buried for 180 years.
                                        Now this ain't Egypt today, but when Napoleon went through it was
                                        governed by Egypt as a province of the Ottoman Empire.
                                        I would love to see a battle or skirmish over land that has seen
                                        thousands of years of civilisation and warfare - and hot! Talk about
                                        hot! 40 Celsius by midday onsite (for those still using Fahrenheit -
                                        very hot). Wool uniforms - just what was needed.
                                        Egypt today - India tomorrow, and then the Fever isles - now that would
                                        be reenacting!
                                        Ray H
                                        41st Foot




                                        On Wednesday, May 4, 2005, at 03:10 PM, HQ93rd@... wrote:

                                        >
                                        > In a message dated 2/05/2005 7:32:08 AM, suthren@... writes:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > But I'd risk the
                                        > > thought that it would be colourful and an addition, even if more the
                                        > > atmosphere of Napoleon's campaign in Egypt than William Henry
                                        > Harrison
                                        > > pursuing Tecumseh.....
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > Just what I was about to say!
                                        > So when are we having an Egypt event? (NOT actually IN Egypt, mind!)
                                        >
                                        > B
                                        > 93rd SHRoFLHU
                                        > 93rdhighlanders.com
                                        > THE Thin Red Line
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
                                        > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
                                        > THOUSANDS of square miles...
                                        >
                                        > Unit Contact information for North America:
                                        > �� ---------------------------------
                                        > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                        > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                                        >
                                        > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                                        > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                                        >
                                        >
                                        <image.tiff>
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
                                        > �
                                        > � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > �
                                        > � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • lalozon
                                        From: ray hobbs ... I would love to see a battle or skirmish over land that has seen thousands of years of civilisation and
                                        Message 19 of 29 , May 4 3:03 PM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          From: "ray hobbs" <ray.hobbs@...>



                                          " ... I would love to see a battle or skirmish over land that has seen
                                          thousands of years of civilisation and warfare - and hot! Talk about hot!
                                          40 Celsius by midday onsite (for those still using Fahrenheit - very
                                          hot)...




                                          For my American friends that's 104 Fahrenheit!

                                          40 Celsius = 104 Fahrenheit

                                          But it is a dry heat ...

                                          similar to putting one's head in the oven !


                                          L2
                                        • ray hobbs
                                          L2 Not a dry heat - very, very humid on the coast. Prevailing west wind from the Mediterranean Sea. More like being boiled in a pan. ... RH
                                          Message 20 of 29 , May 4 3:11 PM
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            L2
                                            Not a dry heat - very, very humid on the coast. Prevailing west wind
                                            from the Mediterranean Sea.
                                            More like being boiled in a pan.
                                            :-)
                                            RH


                                            On Wednesday, May 4, 2005, at 06:03 PM, lalozon wrote:

                                            > From: "ray hobbs" <ray.hobbs@...>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > " ... I would love to see a battle or skirmish over land that has seen
                                            > thousands of years of civilisation and warfare - and hot! Talk about
                                            > hot!
                                            > 40 Celsius by midday onsite (for those still using Fahrenheit - very
                                            > hot)...
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > For my American friends that's 104 Fahrenheit!
                                            >
                                            > 40 Celsius = 104 Fahrenheit
                                            >
                                            > But it is a dry heat ...
                                            >
                                            > similar to putting one's head in the oven !
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > L2
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
                                            > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
                                            > THOUSANDS of square miles...
                                            >
                                            > Unit Contact information for North America:
                                            > ---------------------------------
                                            > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                            > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                                            >
                                            > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                                            > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Angela
                                            G Day Folks, Well, I m tickled right pink! My husband has finally decided to join me in a re-enactment event this summer. He and our three children will be
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jul 16, 2005
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              G'Day Folks,

                                              Well, I'm tickled right pink! My husband has finally decided to join me in a re-enactment event this summer. He and our three children will be accompanying me on Sutler's Row at Wasaga Beach. After three years of pestering him, I really want him to enjoy this as the family event I've worked it up to being.

                                              Our three children are ages 2, 5 and 8. This was a last minute decision and there's no time to order and games via Jas Townsend or the like. Does anyone have any suggestions for games for us and the children? My husband is handy with woodwork and he'd have no problem whipping something up in time - I just haven't seen many family games around camp so am at a loss for ideas. My Google searches aren't helping much at all, unfortunately!

                                              Regards,

                                              Angela Bourbonnais (who's speed sewing their costumes)


                                              __________________________________________________
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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Peter Monahan
                                              Angela In addition to the Squire s suggestion, a skipping rope made of real rope and/or a rag stuffed ball (of leather orm cloth)would be appropriate for any
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jul 17, 2005
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Angela

                                                In addition to the Squire's suggestion, a skipping rope made of real rope and/or a rag stuffed ball (of leather orm cloth)would be appropriate for any age. A cutout wooden musket or pistol, while not "PC" in 2005 terms is very appropriate for 1812 and popular with all ages. In a pinch, crooked branches work too!

                                                You can probably recruit some olders as "sitters" who mwould take the littlers ona tour of the camp to meet the dogs and other kids too. Ask when you check in which families are there. Most of our young adults are very responsible that way! Hope to see you there.

                                                Peter Monahan,
                                                Royal Nfld Reg't

                                                =========================================================
                                                From: Angela <deedle_momof3@...>
                                                Date: 2005/07/16 Sat PM 03:17:08 EST
                                                To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: [WarOf1812] Family Games?


                                                G'Day Folks,

                                                Well, I'm tickled right pink! My husband has finally decided to join me in a re-enactment event this summer. He and our three children will be accompanying me on Sutler's Row at Wasaga Beach. After three years of pestering him, I really want him to enjoy this as the family event I've worked it up to being.

                                                Our three children are ages 2, 5 and 8. This was a last minute decision and there's no time to order and games via Jas Townsend or the like. Does anyone have any suggestions for games for us and the children? My husband is handy with woodwork and he'd have no problem whipping something up in time - I just haven't seen many family games around camp so am at a loss for ideas. My Google searches aren't helping much at all, unfortunately!

                                                Regards,

                                                Angela Bourbonnais (who's speed sewing their costumes)


                                                __________________________________________________
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                                                The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

                                                Unit Contact information for North America:
                                                ---------------------------------
                                                Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                                http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                                                American Forces Unit Listing
                                                http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                                                Yahoo! Groups Links





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                                                Peter Monahan
                                                petermonahan@...
                                                705-435-0953 home
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