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[WarOf1812] Bellydance

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  • Angela
    Hello there folks, I have an off the beaten path question here about bellydance. Yes, bellydance. Last year I was asked to take part in a medieval
    Message 1 of 29 , May 2 6:49 AM
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      Hello there folks,

      I have an off the beaten path question here about bellydance. Yes, bellydance.

      Last year I was asked to take part in a medieval re-enactment. I wasn't outfitted for that period, but with the help of the people running the event, we were able to set me up with a respectable display (making soap). During that event, there were some bellydancers performing and I was awestruck and taken with the artform immediately!

      This last year I've been recruited by two local professional troupes and am now performing in restaurants and theatre events. Before you foo-foo the idea based on the Hollywood version of half-naked women prancing around in heels on-stage, I'd just like to mention that that is NOT authentic bellydance. It's is an Americanized fusion of Egyptian Cabaret adapted for stage shows. Therefore, I'm calling upon anyone who is versed on bellydance in its original form and has appropriate resources for me to research the topic.

      I have been trying to find whether or not bellydance would be suitable to the 1812 period, but can't find any information. I realize it's not typical, but it is authentic? I mean, would there be any possibility that there'd have been a woman or her ancestors who may have traveled to the Middle East or Latin America? Who is now on Sutler's row?

      Bellydance has been traced back before Christ's time on this earth. It's ancient, it's artistic and would add such a wonderful flair to our events. I just wonder how it could be appropriate to a British/American war re-enactment. I have an inkling it isn't - but I really want to discover it is! Would it be unappropriate only because it's not been done in the past? Or because it would be unauthentic? This, I'd like to know! Where can I begin to look into this?

      I dance to live drumming as well as pre-recorded music. Here is a fun video clip:

      http://www.rachelbrice.com/sneakpeek.html

      I'm thinking more demure costuming is in order than the above clip, but is otherwise a great example.



      Yours in pride on striving for the authenticiy of our passion,

      Angela


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    • suthren@magma.ca
      Dear Angela I m no authority, but by the neoclassical era of the Napoleonic period the passion for things Turkish which had developed in the 18th Century has
      Message 2 of 29 , May 2 7:38 AM
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        Dear Angela

        I'm no authority, but by the neoclassical era of the Napoleonic period the
        passion for things 'Turkish' which had developed in the 18th Century has
        really hit full stride. This was manifested militarily by the adoption of
        'Turkish' musical instruments ("Jingling Johnnies"), drumming, and Middle
        Eastern dress of drummers---and on occasion the recruitment of non-European
        drummers. Whether that would tranlate into an encampment depiction of a
        "Turkish" musician's environment in which an accurately dressed 'raisa'
        (dancer) would present classical bellydance, I don't know. But I'd risk the
        thought that it would be colourful and an addition, even if more the
        atmosphere of Napoleon's campaign in Egypt than William Henry Harrison
        pursuing Tecumseh.....

        Vic Suthren
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Angela" <deedle_momof3@...>
        To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 9:49 AM
        Subject: [WarOf1812] Bellydance


        >
        > Hello there folks,
        >
        > I have an off the beaten path question here about bellydance. Yes,
        bellydance.
        >
        > Last year I was asked to take part in a medieval re-enactment. I wasn't
        outfitted for that period, but with the help of the people running the
        event, we were able to set me up with a respectable display (making soap).
        During that event, there were some bellydancers performing and I was
        awestruck and taken with the artform immediately!
        >
        > This last year I've been recruited by two local professional troupes and
        am now performing in restaurants and theatre events. Before you foo-foo the
        idea based on the Hollywood version of half-naked women prancing around in
        heels on-stage, I'd just like to mention that that is NOT authentic
        bellydance. It's is an Americanized fusion of Egyptian Cabaret adapted for
        stage shows. Therefore, I'm calling upon anyone who is versed on bellydance
        in its original form and has appropriate resources for me to research the
        topic.
        >
        > I have been trying to find whether or not bellydance would be suitable to
        the 1812 period, but can't find any information. I realize it's not typical,
        but it is authentic? I mean, would there be any possibility that there'd
        have been a woman or her ancestors who may have traveled to the Middle East
        or Latin America? Who is now on Sutler's row?
        >
        > Bellydance has been traced back before Christ's time on this earth. It's
        ancient, it's artistic and would add such a wonderful flair to our events. I
        just wonder how it could be appropriate to a British/American war
        re-enactment. I have an inkling it isn't - but I really want to discover it
        is! Would it be unappropriate only because it's not been done in the past?
        Or because it would be unauthentic? This, I'd like to know! Where can I
        begin to look into this?
        >
        > I dance to live drumming as well as pre-recorded music. Here is a fun
        video clip:
        >
        > http://www.rachelbrice.com/sneakpeek.html
        >
        > I'm thinking more demure costuming is in order than the above clip, but is
        otherwise a great example.
        >
        >
        >
        > Yours in pride on striving for the authenticiy of our passion,
        >
        > Angela
        >
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        > http://mail.yahoo.com
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
        square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
        square miles...
        >
        > Unit Contact information for North America:
        > ---------------------------------
        > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
        > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
        >
        > American Forces Unit Lisiting
        > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
        > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/05
        >
        >
      • lalozon
        From: Angela ... I have been trying to find whether or not bellydance would be suitable to the 1812 period ... .......... From:
        Message 3 of 29 , May 2 7:41 AM
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          From: "Angela" <deedle_momof3@...>

          " ... I have been trying to find whether or not bellydance would be suitable
          to the 1812 period ..."
          ..........

          From: "Vic Suthren" <suthren@...>

          I'm no authority, but by the neoclassical era of the Napoleonic period the
          passion for things 'Turkish' which had developed in the 18th Century has
          really hit full stride. This was manifested militarily by the adoption of
          'Turkish' musical instruments ("Jingling Johnnies"), drumming, and Middle
          Eastern dress of drummers ..."




          Commander Suthren,

          Do you
          think that a 'Bellydancer'
          would spice up the Crown Forces Corps of Drums presentation at events
          or a dull Officer's Mess ....... :^)


          L2
        • Angela Gottfred
          ... I would ve thought that bellydance would be quite scandalous by period standards, so it would be most suitable for a gentleman s after-hours
          Message 4 of 29 , May 2 8:22 AM
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            >Do you
            > think that a 'Bellydancer'
            > would spice up the Crown Forces Corps of Drums presentation at events
            > or a dull Officer's Mess ....... :^)

            I would've thought that bellydance would be quite scandalous by period
            standards, so it would be most suitable for a gentleman's after-hours
            entertainment...Like, say, at the Beaver Club or other, less-genteel
            establishments (be they permanent or temporary). It's the kind of thing that
            might also have a veneer of respectability, since it is a true depiction of an
            exotic cultural practice (thinking of Mata Hari's dancing, a century later) .

            The other Angela,
            Your humble & obedient servant,
            Angela Gottfred
          • lalozon
            From: Angela Gottfred ... ....... :^) I would ve thought that bellydance would be quite scandalous by period standards, so it
            Message 5 of 29 , May 2 8:30 AM
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              From: "Angela Gottfred" <agottfre@...>



              > Do you think that a 'Bellydancer' would spice up ... a dull Officer's Mess
              ....... :^)

              " I would've thought that bellydance would be quite scandalous by period
              standards, so it would be most suitable for a gentleman's after-hours
              entertainment ... Like, say, at the Beaver Club ...... "



              Lady Gottfred,

              Since we are not in Lower Canada (Beaver Club ) and not part of the
              Fur Trade, my statement was in jest

              but, on an historical note,

              Officer's Messes were "the gentleman's after-hours" clubs and I dare to say
              they would have been the only people who could have afforded such
              entertainment in Upper Canada.

              Yrs.,
              L2
            • elisabeth687
              ... suitable to the 1812 period, but can t find any information. I realize it s not typical, but it is authentic? I mean, would there be any possibility that
              Message 6 of 29 , May 2 9:40 AM
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                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Angela <deedle_momof3@y...> wrote:

                > I have been trying to find whether or not bellydance would be
                suitable to the 1812 period, but can't find any information. I
                realize it's not typical, but it is authentic? I mean, would there be
                any possibility that there'd have been a woman or her ancestors who
                may have traveled to the Middle East or Latin America? Who is now on
                Sutler's row?

                Well, there were persons of European descent who were captured into
                slavery in the Ottoman Empire; some were women and some were American
                (I don't know if any were American women)--I seem to recall that's
                where the "shores of Tripoly" came into the Marine's history, which
                would seem to put it at the right era--and some were subsequently
                ransomed and went back home. Another possibility would be the wife of
                a diplomat who lived in the Middle East--think Lady Montague and her
                accounts of Turkey.

                There have been several books published in the last year or so with
                articles on Ottoman history and at least one had several articles on
                slavery in the Ottoman Empire. Unfortunately, I can't locate the
                title right now; taking a quick look, I see that I.B. Tauris has
                published several books on different aspects of Turkish history--try
                looking up that publisher's website.

                --Amy C.
              • Angela
                That was one of my first concerns, Angela - an one I d like to learn more about. Costuming can be made as demure as entire coverage from collar bone to ankle,
                Message 7 of 29 , May 2 12:18 PM
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                  That was one of my first concerns, Angela - an one I'd like to learn more about.

                  Costuming can be made as demure as entire coverage from collar bone to ankle, or even just the eyes, hands and feet exposed; dance styles vary from sensuous to energetic and geared towards all members of the family.

                  I'd really love to check out some resources if available on the subject. If bellydance would be appropriate - in which form? Where? When? What style of costuming, exactly? I could make educated assumptions on the topic, but I'd really rather not assume.

                  I guess I'm thinking that if it was appropriate in the Cavalier period (let's remember those Victorian era "prudes")!... it'd make sense that it "may" be suitable to our re-enactments in some form or another as well.

                  Where to start! I haven't a clue...

                  Cheers,
                  Angela Bourbonnais

                  Angela Gottfred <agottfre@...> wrote:
                  >Do you
                  > think that a 'Bellydancer'
                  > would spice up the Crown Forces Corps of Drums presentation at events
                  > or a dull Officer's Mess ....... :^)

                  I would've thought that bellydance would be quite scandalous by period
                  standards, so it would be most suitable for a gentleman's after-hours
                  entertainment...Like, say, at the Beaver Club or other, less-genteel
                  establishments (be they permanent or temporary). It's the kind of thing that
                  might also have a veneer of respectability, since it is a true depiction of an
                  exotic cultural practice (thinking of Mata Hari's dancing, a century later) .

                  The other Angela,
                  Your humble & obedient servant,
                  Angela Gottfred




                  The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

                  Unit Contact information for North America:
                  ---------------------------------
                  Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                  http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                  American Forces Unit Lisiting
                  http://usforces1812.tripod.com



                  ---------------------------------
                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/

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                • Angela
                  Excellent, Amy! This is exactly the type of information I was looking for. Thank you so much! Cheers, Angela ... suitable to the 1812 period, but can t find
                  Message 8 of 29 , May 2 12:28 PM
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                    Excellent, Amy! This is exactly the type of information I was looking for.

                    Thank you so much!

                    Cheers,
                    Angela

                    elisabeth687 <acoddington@...> wrote:
                    --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Angela <deedle_momof3@y...> wrote:

                    > I have been trying to find whether or not bellydance would be
                    suitable to the 1812 period, but can't find any information. I
                    realize it's not typical, but it is authentic? I mean, would there be
                    any possibility that there'd have been a woman or her ancestors who
                    may have traveled to the Middle East or Latin America? Who is now on
                    Sutler's row?

                    Well, there were persons of European descent who were captured into
                    slavery in the Ottoman Empire; some were women and some were American
                    (I don't know if any were American women)--I seem to recall that's
                    where the "shores of Tripoly" came into the Marine's history, which
                    would seem to put it at the right era--and some were subsequently
                    ransomed and went back home. Another possibility would be the wife of
                    a diplomat who lived in the Middle East--think Lady Montague and her
                    accounts of Turkey.

                    There have been several books published in the last year or so with
                    articles on Ottoman history and at least one had several articles on
                    slavery in the Ottoman Empire. Unfortunately, I can't locate the
                    title right now; taking a quick look, I see that I.B. Tauris has
                    published several books on different aspects of Turkish history--try
                    looking up that publisher's website.

                    --Amy C.







                    The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

                    Unit Contact information for North America:
                    ---------------------------------
                    Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                    http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                    American Forces Unit Lisiting
                    http://usforces1812.tripod.com



                    ---------------------------------
                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/

                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • suthren@magma.ca
                    ... From: Angela To: Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:18 PM Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance ... about.
                    Message 9 of 29 , May 2 1:00 PM
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Angela" <deedle_momof3@...>
                      To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:18 PM
                      Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance


                      > That was one of my first concerns, Angela - an one I'd like to learn more
                      about.
                      >
                      > Costuming can be made as demure as entire coverage from collar bone to
                      ankle, or even just the eyes, hands and feet exposed; dance styles vary from
                      sensuous to energetic and geared towards all members of the family.
                      >
                      > I'd really love to check out some resources if available on the subject.
                      If bellydance would be appropriate - in which form? Where? When? What style
                      of costuming, exactly? I could make educated assumptions on the topic, but
                      I'd really rather not assume.
                      >
                      > I guess I'm thinking that if it was appropriate in the Cavalier period
                      (let's remember those Victorian era "prudes")!... it'd make sense that it
                      "may" be suitable to our re-enactments in some form or another as well.
                      >
                      > Where to start! I haven't a clue...
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      > Angela Bourbonnais
                      >
                      > Angela Gottfred <agottfre@...> wrote:
                      > >Do you
                      > > think that a 'Bellydancer'
                      > > would spice up the Crown Forces Corps of Drums presentation at events
                      > > or a dull Officer's Mess ....... :^)
                      >
                      > I would've thought that bellydance would be quite scandalous by period
                      > standards, so it would be most suitable for a gentleman's after-hours
                      > entertainment...Like, say, at the Beaver Club or other, less-genteel
                      > establishments (be they permanent or temporary). It's the kind of thing
                      that
                      > might also have a veneer of respectability, since it is a true depiction
                      of an
                      > exotic cultural practice (thinking of Mata Hari's dancing, a century
                      later) .
                      >
                      > The other Angela,
                      > Your humble & obedient servant,
                      > Angela Gottfred
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                      square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                      square miles...
                      >
                      > Unit Contact information for North America:
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                      > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                      >
                      > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                      > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                      >
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      > http://mail.yahoo.com
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                      square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                      square miles...
                      >
                      > Unit Contact information for North America:
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                      > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                      >
                      > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                      > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > No virus found in this incoming message.
                      > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                      > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/05
                      >
                      >
                    • suthren@magma.ca
                      Dear Angela With respect to prudishness in the neoclassical era, I think if anything it was a far more libertine era than the stifling Victorian era which
                      Message 10 of 29 , May 2 1:13 PM
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                        Dear Angela

                        With respect to prudishness in the neoclassical era, I think if anything it
                        was a far more libertine era than the stifling Victorian era which followed,
                        in which grandparents who had lived much more freely (in relative terms) in
                        the Revolutionary/Napoleonic/Regency era were forced to live with a sense of
                        nostalgia and enforced guilt amidst far more restrained, prudish and
                        inhibited children and grandchildren. You might recall it was as well the
                        era of Emma Hamilton and her 'attitudes' in thin Grecian drapery, and the
                        charming Empire gowns that shocked later Victorians with their revealing
                        styles. As mentioned, your persona could likely be either a
                        Turkish/Levantine woman attached to a musician, or indeed a European woman
                        having involuntarily experienced Middle Eastern culture; either way, I would
                        think it would be a charming addition to the encampments, adding grace and a
                        touch of the color and romance which always has been part of our Napoleonic,
                        recreated world....

                        Vic Suthren
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Angela" <deedle_momof3@...>
                        To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:18 PM
                        Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance


                        > That was one of my first concerns, Angela - an one I'd like to learn more
                        about.
                        >
                        > Costuming can be made as demure as entire coverage from collar bone to
                        ankle, or even just the eyes, hands and feet exposed; dance styles vary from
                        sensuous to energetic and geared towards all members of the family.
                        >
                        > I'd really love to check out some resources if available on the subject.
                        If bellydance would be appropriate - in which form? Where? When? What style
                        of costuming, exactly? I could make educated assumptions on the topic, but
                        I'd really rather not assume.
                        >
                        > I guess I'm thinking that if it was appropriate in the Cavalier period
                        (let's remember those Victorian era "prudes")!... it'd make sense that it
                        "may" be suitable to our re-enactments in some form or another as well.
                        >
                        > Where to start! I haven't a clue...
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        > Angela Bourbonnais
                        >
                        > Angela Gottfred <agottfre@...> wrote:
                        > >Do you
                        > > think that a 'Bellydancer'
                        > > would spice up the Crown Forces Corps of Drums presentation at events
                        > > or a dull Officer's Mess ....... :^)
                        >
                        > I would've thought that bellydance would be quite scandalous by period
                        > standards, so it would be most suitable for a gentleman's after-hours
                        > entertainment...Like, say, at the Beaver Club or other, less-genteel
                        > establishments (be they permanent or temporary). It's the kind of thing
                        that
                        > might also have a veneer of respectability, since it is a true depiction
                        of an
                        > exotic cultural practice (thinking of Mata Hari's dancing, a century
                        later) .
                        >
                        > The other Angela,
                        > Your humble & obedient servant,
                        > Angela Gottfred
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                        square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                        square miles...
                        >
                        > Unit Contact information for North America:
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                        > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                        >
                        > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                        > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        > http://mail.yahoo.com
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                        square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                        square miles...
                        >
                        > Unit Contact information for North America:
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                        > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                        >
                        > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                        > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                        > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                        > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/05
                        >
                        >
                      • PEGGY Mathews
                        And let us not forget the influence of those coming from or going to India. Exotic/erotic dance was imported from there, though not necessarily for polite
                        Message 11 of 29 , May 2 1:49 PM
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                          And let us not forget the influence of those coming from or going to India.
                          Exotic/erotic dance was imported from there, though not necessarily for
                          "polite" society. I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from Vanity
                          Fair as an example. ;-) Been too long since I read the book, but the movie
                          certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.

                          Michael Mathews



                          "The opportunity for brotherhood presents itself every time you meet a human
                          being." - Jane Wyman




                          >From: <suthren@...>
                          >Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                          >Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Bellydance
                          >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:13:29 -0400
                          >
                          >Dear Angela
                          >
                          >With respect to prudishness in the neoclassical era, I think if anything it
                          >was a far more libertine era than the stifling Victorian era which
                          >followed,
                          >in which grandparents who had lived much more freely (in relative terms) in
                          >the Revolutionary/Napoleonic/Regency era were forced to live with a sense
                          >of
                          >nostalgia and enforced guilt amidst far more restrained, prudish and
                          >inhibited children and grandchildren. You might recall it was as well the
                          >era of Emma Hamilton and her 'attitudes' in thin Grecian drapery, and the
                          >charming Empire gowns that shocked later Victorians with their revealing
                          >styles. As mentioned, your persona could likely be either a
                          >Turkish/Levantine woman attached to a musician, or indeed a European woman
                          >having involuntarily experienced Middle Eastern culture; either way, I
                          >would
                          >think it would be a charming addition to the encampments, adding grace and
                          >a
                          >touch of the color and romance which always has been part of our
                          >Napoleonic,
                          >recreated world....
                          >
                          >Vic Suthren
                          >----- Original Message -----
                          >From: "Angela" <deedle_momof3@...>
                          >To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                          >Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:18 PM
                          >Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance
                          >
                          >
                          > > That was one of my first concerns, Angela - an one I'd like to learn
                          >more
                          >about.
                          > >
                          > > Costuming can be made as demure as entire coverage from collar bone to
                          >ankle, or even just the eyes, hands and feet exposed; dance styles vary
                          >from
                          >sensuous to energetic and geared towards all members of the family.
                          > >
                          > > I'd really love to check out some resources if available on the subject.
                          >If bellydance would be appropriate - in which form? Where? When? What style
                          >of costuming, exactly? I could make educated assumptions on the topic, but
                          >I'd really rather not assume.
                          > >
                          > > I guess I'm thinking that if it was appropriate in the Cavalier period
                          >(let's remember those Victorian era "prudes")!... it'd make sense that it
                          >"may" be suitable to our re-enactments in some form or another as well.
                          > >
                          > > Where to start! I haven't a clue...
                          > >
                          > > Cheers,
                          > > Angela Bourbonnais
                          > >
                          (snip)
                        • ray hobbs
                          I ll throw my two cents worth in here. This for a couple of reasons, [1] as an historian and [2] as the father of a daughter who takes bellydancing lessons.
                          Message 12 of 29 , May 2 2:15 PM
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                            I'll throw my two cents' worth in here. This for a couple of reasons,
                            [1] as an historian and [2] as the father of a daughter who takes
                            bellydancing lessons. She has no intention of performing it, but what
                            she has learned has dispelled some of the mythology of the craft.

                            First - it is quite possible, even probable that in the Regency period
                            oriental dancing became popular in places like Vauxhall Gardens. As
                            several have already pointed out, things "Turkish", or "Mohammetan"
                            were very popular at this time. There is even a famous print of two
                            "Mohammetans" visiting Vauxhall Gardens in the late 18th century, but
                            as visitors, not performers.
                            Second - equally as probable is that this art was exploited by the
                            clubs and gangs of "Young Turks" (note the epithet) which were
                            sprinkled throughout the London and Brighton society of the day.
                            Third - whether there was public display in military encampments is
                            another matter. Looking at the schedule for the day of the average
                            British encamped soldier, I think it highly unlikely that such things
                            would be allowed, even by the most liberal-minded commanding officer
                            (and they were few!)
                            Fourth - as for the officers' mess, as the popular saying has it "What
                            happens there, stays there". However, I have read a few first-hand
                            descriptions of mess antics, and they seem to me to be rather boring.
                            The cost of having such entertainment would probably be prohibitive.
                            After all, how many such dancers would there be in Canada, or the US at
                            the time?
                            Fifth - I have every support for someone who wants to explore all
                            aspects of Regency society as an aid to improving our impression. The
                            more research the better. However, I have the sneaking feeling that at
                            the current state of our knowledge this falls into the category of "If
                            it was available, they'd have done it".
                            Sixth - Military encampments and barracks were not town fairs.
                            Seventh - now whether the Methodists of Ancaster or Saltfleet engaged
                            in such entertainment is another matter. After all, they did distill
                            some of the best whisky in the Province :-) Come to think of it, Isaac
                            Brock thought that Methodist preaching was a "threat to public order
                            and safety", Lord knows what he would have thought of belly-dancers.
                            Yrs etc.
                            Ray Hobbs
                            41st Regt.


                            On Monday, May 2, 2005, at 04:49 PM, PEGGY Mathews wrote:

                            > And let us not forget the influence of those coming from or going to
                            > India.�
                            > Exotic/erotic dance was imported from there, though not necessarily for
                            > "polite" society.� I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from
                            > Vanity
                            > Fair as an example.� ;-)� Been too long since I read the book, but the
                            > movie
                            > certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.
                            >
                            > Michael Mathews
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > "The opportunity for brotherhood presents itself every time you meet a
                            > human
                            > being." - Jane Wyman
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > >From: <suthren@...>
                            > >Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                            > >To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                            > >Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Bellydance
                            > >Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:13:29 -0400
                            > >
                            > >Dear Angela
                            > >
                            > >With respect to prudishness in the neoclassical era, I think if
                            > anything it
                            > >was a far more libertine era than the stifling Victorian era which
                            > >followed,
                            > >in which grandparents who had lived much more freely (in relative
                            > terms) in
                            > >the Revolutionary/Napoleonic/Regency era were forced to live with a
                            > sense
                            > >of
                            > >nostalgia and enforced guilt amidst far more restrained, prudish and
                            > >inhibited children and grandchildren. You might recall it was as well
                            > the
                            > >era of Emma Hamilton and her 'attitudes' in thin Grecian drapery, and
                            > the
                            > >charming Empire gowns that shocked later Victorians with their
                            > revealing
                            > >styles. As mentioned, your persona could likely be either a
                            > >Turkish/Levantine woman attached to a musician, or indeed a European
                            > woman
                            > >having involuntarily experienced Middle Eastern culture; either way, I
                            > >would
                            > >think it would be a charming addition to the encampments, adding
                            > grace and
                            > >a
                            > >touch of the color and romance which always has been part of our
                            > >Napoleonic,
                            > >recreated world....
                            > >
                            > >Vic Suthren
                            > >----- Original Message -----
                            > >From: "Angela" <deedle_momof3@...>
                            > >To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                            > >Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:18 PM
                            > >Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > > That was one of my first concerns, Angela - an one I'd like to
                            > learn
                            > >more
                            > >about.
                            > > >
                            > > > Costuming can be made as demure as entire coverage from collar
                            > bone to
                            > >ankle, or even just the eyes, hands and feet exposed; dance styles
                            > vary
                            > >from
                            > >sensuous to energetic and geared towards all members of the family.
                            > > >
                            > > > I'd really love to check out some resources if available on the
                            > subject.
                            > >If bellydance would be appropriate - in which form? Where? When? What
                            > style
                            > >of costuming, exactly? I could make educated assumptions on the
                            > topic, but
                            > >I'd really rather not assume.
                            > > >
                            > > > I guess I'm thinking that if it was appropriate in the Cavalier
                            > period
                            > >(let's remember those Victorian era "prudes")!... it'd make sense
                            > that it
                            > >"may" be suitable to our re-enactments in some form or another as
                            > well.
                            > > >
                            > > > Where to start! I haven't a clue...
                            > > >
                            > > > Cheers,
                            > > > Angela Bourbonnais
                            > > >
                            > (snip)
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
                            > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
                            > THOUSANDS of square miles...
                            >
                            > Unit Contact information for North America:
                            > �� ---------------------------------
                            > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                            > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                            >
                            > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                            > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                            >
                            >
                            <image.tiff>
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                            > �
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                          • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                            ... I would imagine that cinematic representation would be about a accurate as the military bits of that opus Mike! Cheers Tim Timothy Pickles 1100 Rue
                            Message 13 of 29 , May 2 3:08 PM
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                              In a message dated 5/2/05 3:50:44 PM, ciefranche21e@... writes:


                              > I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from Vanity
                              > Fair as an example.  ;-)  Been too long since I read the book, but the movie
                              > certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.
                              >

                              I would imagine that cinematic representation would be about a accurate as
                              the military bits of that opus Mike!

                              Cheers

                              Tim


                              Timothy Pickles
                              1100 Rue Chartres
                              New Orleans
                              Louisiana 70116
                              Tel & Fax: 504 522 4822
                              Mobile: 504 236 7130



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Angela
                              There we have it... Thank you, Mike! Bellydance is the world s oldest known documented dance form. The fact that it s been tainted as a means of erotic
                              Message 14 of 29 , May 2 4:15 PM
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                                There we have it...
                                Thank you, Mike!


                                Bellydance is the world's oldest known documented dance form. The fact that it's been tainted as a means of erotic entertainment for men is the responsibility of Westernized society. The dance was once used to pantomime the sowing and harvesting of crops, to bless and heal, expel demons, to worship deities, to prepare for childbirth and womanhood, and as most of you have come to know it - for secular entertainment.

                                Nobody knows where it originated, but ancient forms of bellydance have been traced to India, Egypt, Turkey, Tunisia, Hungary, Russia, China, Africa, the Caucasus Mountains, Eastern Europe, Russia, Western Europe and Spain. (I'm probably leaving some out here)!

                                For years (B.C.), it's been customary for bellydancers to entertain family at weddings in the Middle East. A dancer would wear a candelbra on her head to light the way for the wedding party (no streetlights then). Family members would (and still do) get up and dance with the dancer. Middle Eastern men bellydance nearly as often as women. (In their masculine version).

                                As a mother of three young children, I assure you that my goal here is not erotic entertainment for the men among us. What I wonder, is that whether or not an ancient artform such as bellydance could have been found in millitary encampments of the 1812 period in Upper Canada. I almost wonder how such an ancient dance from so many corners of the world could not have found a place.

                                Would it have been shunned as something entirely inappropriate? There's no secret that Western society was (and still is) uncomfortable with sensuality. It's unfortunate that so many have a hard time distinguishing feminine sensuality from overt sexuality - but that's a battle I've grown accustomed to defending.

                                Would it have been possible for a (dancing) woman of any stature to be traveling with the millitary for any reason? If so, how? Would such a thing be frowned upon? Why? I'm interested in your opinions, I truly am. But where can I find some accurate details on the subject? Anybody?


                                Respectfully,

                                Angela Bourbonnais



                                BritcomHMP@... wrote:

                                In a message dated 5/2/05 3:50:44 PM, ciefranche21e@... writes:


                                > I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from Vanity
                                > Fair as an example. ;-) Been too long since I read the book, but the movie
                                > certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.
                                >

                                I would imagine that cinematic representation would be about a accurate as
                                the military bits of that opus Mike!

                                Cheers

                                Tim


                                Timothy Pickles
                                1100 Rue Chartres
                                New Orleans
                                Louisiana 70116
                                Tel & Fax: 504 522 4822
                                Mobile: 504 236 7130



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

                                Unit Contact information for North America:
                                ---------------------------------
                                Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                                American Forces Unit Lisiting
                                http://usforces1812.tripod.com



                                ---------------------------------
                                Yahoo! Groups Links

                                To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/

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                              • Phil Graf
                                My advice on the matter would would be to emphasize researching what was, before resorting to what could have been. Just because something may have been
                                Message 15 of 29 , May 2 4:23 PM
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                                  My advice on the matter would would be to emphasize researching what was, before resorting to what could have been. Just because something may have been possible does not mean it was actually done.

                                  Phil G.
                                  Fifth - I have every support for someone who wants to explore all
                                  aspects of Regency society as an aid to improving our impression. The
                                  more research the better. However, I have the sneaking feeling that at
                                  the current state of our knowledge this falls into the category of "If
                                  it was available, they'd have done it".

                                  Yrs etc.
                                  Ray Hobbs
                                  41st Regt.

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • mccombs98
                                  Angela, A can t comment on bellydancing in Upper Canada, but let s look a little closer. I have reference to an Anglican Minister from York visiting the
                                  Message 16 of 29 , May 2 4:50 PM
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                                    Angela,
                                    A can't comment on "bellydancing" in Upper Canada, but let's look a
                                    little closer.
                                    I have reference to an Anglican Minister from York visiting the Detroit
                                    region in 1793 where he observed MPP William McComb dancing pagan
                                    dances with the natives. His letter expresses outrage at the sight
                                    (little would he know that this was the annual Fete of the early
                                    NWCo.). The Macomb and Edgars of Detroit were invested in the China
                                    Trade by 1788, so the question to ponder is whether they brought back
                                    any visiting foreign "dignataries" and/or entourage?
                                    Considering that the Anglican Church was the only sanctioned and
                                    official church in Upper Canada at that time, a phantom "bellydancer"
                                    would most definately not meet with approval in the community at large.
                                    However having said that, someone else has commented that it was the
                                    Victorian age that brought us the common perception of English
                                    prudishness. The Regency period was full of rogues, drinking, and
                                    experiencing the good life and all the wonderous discoveries the world
                                    had to offer. To the adventurous soul, this was akin to a scientific
                                    experiment.
                                    Just a thought.
                                    Murray.


                                    >
                                    > Would it have been shunned as something entirely inappropriate? There's no secret that Western society was (and still is) uncomfortable with sensuality. It's unfortunate that so many have a hard time distinguishing feminine sensuality from overt sexuality - but that's a battle I've grown accustomed to defending.
                                  • elisabeth687
                                    ... be traveling with the millitary for any reason? If so, how? Would such a thing be frowned upon? Why? I m interested in your opinions, I truly am. But where
                                    Message 17 of 29 , May 2 5:45 PM
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                                      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Angela <deedle_momof3@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Would it have been possible for a (dancing) woman of any stature to
                                      be traveling with the millitary for any reason? If so, how? Would such
                                      a thing be frowned upon? Why? I'm interested in your opinions, I truly
                                      am. But where can I find some accurate details on the subject? Anybody?

                                      Emma Hamilton has been mentioned, as a woman performing what might
                                      have been considered inappropriate "Attitudes" in private for her
                                      husband and his guests. Another wife might have Turkish dance talents;
                                      I doubt a wife connected with the military would perform publicly,
                                      although if her husband was dead, she might need a source of income.

                                      For your earlier query about clothing: I did look into late 18th
                                      century Turkish costume some years ago and have been trying to
                                      remember what I found with only mediocre success. Folkwear
                                      (www.folkwear.com) has two patterns that look like reasonable starting
                                      points and both have received good reviews on The Great Pattern Review
                                      at gbacg.org: Turkish Dancer (108) includes the entari and a vest and
                                      short jacket and Sarouelles (119) has shalwar trousers. I don't know
                                      where you'd find a pattern for the shift but you might be able to fake
                                      it, given a decent description--try for a quote of Lady Mary Wortley
                                      Montagu's comments on her Turkish clothing; it's quite detailed,
                                      although it's a century too early. There is a chapter on fancy dress
                                      including oriental costume in Aileen Ribeiro's The Art of Dress:
                                      Fashion in England and France, 1750-1820 which reproduces several
                                      paintings of rich ladies in Turkish-inspired costume. There is also a
                                      very well-illustrated book called Historical Costume of Turkish Women
                                      (Nisantasi, Istanbul: Middle East Video Corp., 1986) that you might be
                                      able to get through ILL. I don't think any of the costumes therein
                                      date back to 1812, but you might be able to use it for ideas and
                                      confirm with research. I know I've seen other books on historic Middle
                                      Eastern costume, but it's been a few years and I'm having trouble
                                      finding specific titles. I see several perfect books in Library of
                                      Congress' catalog, if you live close to DC, but as they have
                                      publication dates of 1819 and 1820 I doubt LC would send them anywhere
                                      (you can try going to catalog.loc.gov and searching by call number at
                                      GT1370 and following to see books on Middle Eastern costume or
                                      searching subject headings to get an idea of what has been available
                                      in this or other areas of interest).

                                      --Amy C.
                                    • Len Heidebrecht
                                      Hello Angela, I have a few thoughts to add here. ... bellydance. Yes, it is quite a distance off. ... Neither the Dark Ages Society, nor Regia Angoreum have
                                      Message 18 of 29 , May 2 5:55 PM
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                                        Hello Angela, I have a few thoughts to add here.

                                        > I have an off the beaten path question here about bellydance. Yes,
                                        bellydance.

                                        Yes, it is quite a distance off.

                                        > Last year I was asked to take part in a medieval re-enactment.

                                        Neither the Dark Ages Society, nor Regia Angoreum have such a style
                                        of dance, so this must have been the Society for Creative
                                        Anachronism.

                                        >During that event, there were some bellydancers performing and I
                                        was awestruck and taken with the artform immediately!

                                        Fantastic. As a dancer myself, I'm always pleased to see someone
                                        discovering new forms of the art and the ability to express oneself;
                                        though how anyone over the age of six has not ever been subjected to
                                        bellydance in some form, is beyond me.

                                        > This last year I've been recruited by two local professional
                                        troupes and am now performing in restaurants and theatre events.

                                        I wish you well in your chosen profession.

                                        >Therefore, I'm calling upon anyone who is versed on bellydance in
                                        its original form and has appropriate resources for me to research
                                        the topic.

                                        There are a number of professional researchers on this list who
                                        would (for a given and oft quoted hourly fee) spend a great deal of
                                        time looking for this information.

                                        > I have been trying to find whether or not bellydance would be
                                        suitable to the 1812 period, but can't find any information.

                                        There is, to my mind at least one possible reason for this.

                                        >I realize it's not typical, but it is authentic?

                                        No, I am certain that it is not a typical form of entertainment to
                                        be found in a reputable camp. I'm sure someone would have mentioned
                                        it, Lt John le Couteur being the most likely.

                                        >I mean, would there be any possibility that there'd have been a
                                        woman or her ancestors who may have traveled to the Middle East or
                                        Latin America?

                                        Having been in a state of war for almost a generation it is
                                        suprising how well travelled people were at this time. Actually
                                        whole regiments, many of which served in North America, visited
                                        places such as Egypt, India and Argentina.

                                        >Who is now on Sutler's row?

                                        Please see previous postings on the topic of sutlers. There is a
                                        wonderful 1790s drawing of one possible person being drummed out of
                                        Hyde Park.

                                        >It's ancient, it's artistic and would add such a wonderful flair to
                                        our events.

                                        Yes, so would elephant rides.

                                        >I just wonder how it could be appropriate to a British/American war
                                        re-enactment. I have an inkling it isn't - but I really want to
                                        discover it is!

                                        Professor Hobbes has made an appropriate comment to this in his last
                                        paragraph.

                                        Thankyou so much for your interest in our hobby and area of study
                                        though I do feel the Society for Creative Anachronism is more likely
                                        fit for your interests.

                                        Cheers,

                                        Len
                                      • Angela
                                        Dearest Len, I m not sure whether or not you meant your post to be informative or humorous, but I found it insulting. As far as professions go, I am a Systems
                                        Message 19 of 29 , May 2 6:30 PM
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                                          Dearest Len,

                                          I'm not sure whether or not you meant your post to be informative or humorous, but I found it insulting.

                                          As far as professions go, I am a Systems Analyst.

                                          As for the SCA being an outlet for my re-enacting interests, this will be my third year on sutler's row as a chandler and soap boiler. I'm still fairly new, but have taken a good deal of time, effort, research and expense to portray myself with historical accuracy. I've made errors and take pride enough to fix the mistakes I've made. Odds are - I'll make more, but each year will be better than the last.

                                          I suppose I could go beyond these statements in the name of defensiveness, but speaking respectfully to others has always been a quality of mine. For a small fee, I may entertain the idea of sharing a little lesson or two with you on how to speak to others as equals.

                                          In the meantime; happy re-enacting.


                                          Regards,
                                          Angela Bourbonnais




                                          Len Heidebrecht <lheidebrecht@...> wrote:
                                          Hello Angela, I have a few thoughts to add here.

                                          > I have an off the beaten path question here about bellydance. Yes,
                                          bellydance.

                                          Yes, it is quite a distance off.

                                          > Last year I was asked to take part in a medieval re-enactment.

                                          Neither the Dark Ages Society, nor Regia Angoreum have such a style
                                          of dance, so this must have been the Society for Creative
                                          Anachronism.

                                          >During that event, there were some bellydancers performing and I
                                          was awestruck and taken with the artform immediately!

                                          Fantastic. As a dancer myself, I'm always pleased to see someone
                                          discovering new forms of the art and the ability to express oneself;
                                          though how anyone over the age of six has not ever been subjected to
                                          bellydance in some form, is beyond me.

                                          > This last year I've been recruited by two local professional
                                          troupes and am now performing in restaurants and theatre events.

                                          I wish you well in your chosen profession.

                                          >Therefore, I'm calling upon anyone who is versed on bellydance in
                                          its original form and has appropriate resources for me to research
                                          the topic.

                                          There are a number of professional researchers on this list who
                                          would (for a given and oft quoted hourly fee) spend a great deal of
                                          time looking for this information.

                                          > I have been trying to find whether or not bellydance would be
                                          suitable to the 1812 period, but can't find any information.

                                          There is, to my mind at least one possible reason for this.

                                          >I realize it's not typical, but it is authentic?

                                          No, I am certain that it is not a typical form of entertainment to
                                          be found in a reputable camp. I'm sure someone would have mentioned
                                          it, Lt John le Couteur being the most likely.

                                          >I mean, would there be any possibility that there'd have been a
                                          woman or her ancestors who may have traveled to the Middle East or
                                          Latin America?

                                          Having been in a state of war for almost a generation it is
                                          suprising how well travelled people were at this time. Actually
                                          whole regiments, many of which served in North America, visited
                                          places such as Egypt, India and Argentina.

                                          >Who is now on Sutler's row?

                                          Please see previous postings on the topic of sutlers. There is a
                                          wonderful 1790s drawing of one possible person being drummed out of
                                          Hyde Park.

                                          >It's ancient, it's artistic and would add such a wonderful flair to
                                          our events.

                                          Yes, so would elephant rides.

                                          >I just wonder how it could be appropriate to a British/American war
                                          re-enactment. I have an inkling it isn't - but I really want to
                                          discover it is!

                                          Professor Hobbes has made an appropriate comment to this in his last
                                          paragraph.

                                          Thankyou so much for your interest in our hobby and area of study
                                          though I do feel the Society for Creative Anachronism is more likely
                                          fit for your interests.

                                          Cheers,

                                          Len







                                          The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

                                          Unit Contact information for North America:
                                          ---------------------------------
                                          Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                          http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                                          American Forces Unit Lisiting
                                          http://usforces1812.tripod.com



                                          ---------------------------------
                                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                                          To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/

                                          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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                                        • PETER CATLEY
                                          On this Tim and I agree! as far as I recall Becky didn t visit India in the original novel, that was a Bollywood add on for the spectacular effect allong eith
                                          Message 20 of 29 , May 2 11:39 PM
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                                            On this Tim and I agree! as far as I recall Becky
                                            didn't visit India in the original novel, that was a
                                            Bollywood add on for the spectacular effect allong
                                            eith the Russett Rangers.

                                            Cheers

                                            P**

                                            --- BritcomHMP@... wrote:
                                            ---------------------------------

                                            In a message dated 5/2/05 3:50:44 PM,
                                            ciefranche21e@... writes:


                                            > I'm thinking of the demure Becky Sharpe(?) from
                                            Vanity
                                            > Fair as an example. ;-) Been too long since I read
                                            the book, but the movie
                                            > certainly had an entertaining dance sequence.
                                            >

                                            I would imagine that cinematic representation would be
                                            about a accurate as
                                            the military bits of that opus Mike!

                                            Cheers

                                            Tim


                                            Timothy Pickles
                                            1100 Rue Chartres
                                            New Orleans
                                            Louisiana 70116
                                            Tel & Fax: 504 522 4822
                                            Mobile: 504 236 7130



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                            The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the
                                            fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America,
                                            hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square
                                            miles...

                                            Unit Contact information for North America:
                                            ---------------------------------
                                            Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                            http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                                            American Forces Unit Lisiting
                                            http://usforces1812.tripod.com



                                            ---------------------------------
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                                          • Angela Gottfred
                                            ... Yes, I think they got confused with Italy. They both begin with an I , you see. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred
                                            Message 21 of 29 , May 3 5:59 AM
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              > as far as I recall Becky
                                              > didn't visit India in the original novel, that was a
                                              > Bollywood add on for the spectacular effect along

                                              Yes, I think they got confused with Italy. They both begin with an "I", you see.

                                              Your humble & obedient servant,
                                              Angela Gottfred
                                            • suthren@magma.ca
                                              Dear Angela I hope you will proceed with your efforts to recreate the possible appearance and repertoire of a raisa of baladi as she might have appeared in
                                              Message 22 of 29 , May 3 6:29 AM
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Dear Angela

                                                I hope you will proceed with your efforts to recreate the possible
                                                appearance and repertoire of a 'raisa' of 'baladi' as she might have
                                                appeared in the 1790s-1815 timeframe. True, it has little to do with the
                                                largely military focus of the majority of our re-enactment activity, nor was
                                                it likely an art form or entertainment seen on the Upper Canadian or
                                                Michigan frontier. It nonetheless would add a flash of color from the wider
                                                Napoleonic world that the Invasion of Egypt and the Turkish fascination of
                                                the age so represent, and which must have touched our shores in one way or
                                                another.

                                                The Naval Establishment, Crown Forces North America, wishes to extend an
                                                invitation to you to be a respected guest of the Naval Encampment at any
                                                time.

                                                Vic Suthren
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "Angela Gottfred" <agottfre@...>
                                                To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 8:59 AM
                                                Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Bellydance


                                                > > as far as I recall Becky
                                                > > didn't visit India in the original novel, that was a
                                                > > Bollywood add on for the spectacular effect along
                                                >
                                                > Yes, I think they got confused with Italy. They both begin with an "I",
                                                you see.
                                                >
                                                > Your humble & obedient servant,
                                                > Angela Gottfred
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                                                square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                                                square miles...
                                                >
                                                > Unit Contact information for North America:
                                                > ---------------------------------
                                                > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                                > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                                                >
                                                > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                                                > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --
                                                > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                                > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/05
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • bmitcheca
                                                Hi Angela, Here is another site that I have just registered with that could give you some of the historical references that you were looking for.
                                                Message 23 of 29 , May 3 8:12 AM
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Hi Angela,

                                                  Here is another site that I have just registered with that could give
                                                  you some of the historical references that you were looking for.

                                                  www.milescopeland.net/bellydance/home/

                                                  I am a sutler as well and it would be great speaking with you about
                                                  this great hobby.

                                                  Beth Mitchell
                                                • HQ93rd@aol.com
                                                  ... Just what I was about to say! So when are we having an Egypt event? (NOT actually IN Egypt, mind!) B 93rd SHRoFLHU 93rdhighlanders.com THE Thin Red Line
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , May 4 12:10 PM
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    In a message dated 2/05/2005 7:32:08 AM, suthren@... writes:


                                                    > But I'd risk the
                                                    > thought that it would be colourful and an addition, even if more the
                                                    > atmosphere of Napoleon's campaign in Egypt than William Henry Harrison
                                                    > pursuing Tecumseh.....
                                                    >

                                                    Just what I was about to say!
                                                    So when are we having an Egypt event? (NOT actually IN Egypt, mind!)

                                                    B
                                                    93rd SHRoFLHU
                                                    93rdhighlanders.com
                                                    THE Thin Red Line


                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • ray hobbs
                                                    Dear Thin :-) My archaeological expedition for six years was at Tel Dor, Israel. It used to be known as Tanturah, and was one of the sites of a pause in
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , May 4 2:59 PM
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Dear Thin :-)
                                                      My archaeological expedition for six years was at Tel Dor, Israel. It
                                                      used to be known as Tanturah, and was one of the sites of a pause in
                                                      Nappy's journey back to Egypt after Acre.
                                                      In the museum at the site there are numerous encrusted cannons and
                                                      muskets, a few sabres and other swords as well. Many were found on the
                                                      seabed by the underwater team from the University of Haifa, others were
                                                      found on site and had been buried for 180 years.
                                                      Now this ain't Egypt today, but when Napoleon went through it was
                                                      governed by Egypt as a province of the Ottoman Empire.
                                                      I would love to see a battle or skirmish over land that has seen
                                                      thousands of years of civilisation and warfare - and hot! Talk about
                                                      hot! 40 Celsius by midday onsite (for those still using Fahrenheit -
                                                      very hot). Wool uniforms - just what was needed.
                                                      Egypt today - India tomorrow, and then the Fever isles - now that would
                                                      be reenacting!
                                                      Ray H
                                                      41st Foot




                                                      On Wednesday, May 4, 2005, at 03:10 PM, HQ93rd@... wrote:

                                                      >
                                                      > In a message dated 2/05/2005 7:32:08 AM, suthren@... writes:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > > But I'd risk the
                                                      > > thought that it would be colourful and an addition, even if more the
                                                      > > atmosphere of Napoleon's campaign in Egypt than William Henry
                                                      > Harrison
                                                      > > pursuing Tecumseh.....
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                      > Just what I was about to say!
                                                      > So when are we having an Egypt event? (NOT actually IN Egypt, mind!)
                                                      >
                                                      > B
                                                      > 93rd SHRoFLHU
                                                      > 93rdhighlanders.com
                                                      > THE Thin Red Line
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
                                                      > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
                                                      > THOUSANDS of square miles...
                                                      >
                                                      > Unit Contact information for North America:
                                                      > �� ---------------------------------
                                                      > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                                      > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                                                      >
                                                      > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                                                      > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      <image.tiff>
                                                      >
                                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      >
                                                      > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
                                                      > �
                                                      > � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                      > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > �
                                                      > � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                                      >


                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • lalozon
                                                      From: ray hobbs ... I would love to see a battle or skirmish over land that has seen thousands of years of civilisation and
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , May 4 3:03 PM
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        From: "ray hobbs" <ray.hobbs@...>



                                                        " ... I would love to see a battle or skirmish over land that has seen
                                                        thousands of years of civilisation and warfare - and hot! Talk about hot!
                                                        40 Celsius by midday onsite (for those still using Fahrenheit - very
                                                        hot)...




                                                        For my American friends that's 104 Fahrenheit!

                                                        40 Celsius = 104 Fahrenheit

                                                        But it is a dry heat ...

                                                        similar to putting one's head in the oven !


                                                        L2
                                                      • ray hobbs
                                                        L2 Not a dry heat - very, very humid on the coast. Prevailing west wind from the Mediterranean Sea. More like being boiled in a pan. ... RH
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , May 4 3:11 PM
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          L2
                                                          Not a dry heat - very, very humid on the coast. Prevailing west wind
                                                          from the Mediterranean Sea.
                                                          More like being boiled in a pan.
                                                          :-)
                                                          RH


                                                          On Wednesday, May 4, 2005, at 06:03 PM, lalozon wrote:

                                                          > From: "ray hobbs" <ray.hobbs@...>
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > " ... I would love to see a battle or skirmish over land that has seen
                                                          > thousands of years of civilisation and warfare - and hot! Talk about
                                                          > hot!
                                                          > 40 Celsius by midday onsite (for those still using Fahrenheit - very
                                                          > hot)...
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > For my American friends that's 104 Fahrenheit!
                                                          >
                                                          > 40 Celsius = 104 Fahrenheit
                                                          >
                                                          > But it is a dry heat ...
                                                          >
                                                          > similar to putting one's head in the oven !
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > L2
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
                                                          > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
                                                          > THOUSANDS of square miles...
                                                          >
                                                          > Unit Contact information for North America:
                                                          > ---------------------------------
                                                          > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                                          > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                                                          >
                                                          > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                                                          > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                        • Angela
                                                          G Day Folks, Well, I m tickled right pink! My husband has finally decided to join me in a re-enactment event this summer. He and our three children will be
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jul 16, 2005
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            G'Day Folks,

                                                            Well, I'm tickled right pink! My husband has finally decided to join me in a re-enactment event this summer. He and our three children will be accompanying me on Sutler's Row at Wasaga Beach. After three years of pestering him, I really want him to enjoy this as the family event I've worked it up to being.

                                                            Our three children are ages 2, 5 and 8. This was a last minute decision and there's no time to order and games via Jas Townsend or the like. Does anyone have any suggestions for games for us and the children? My husband is handy with woodwork and he'd have no problem whipping something up in time - I just haven't seen many family games around camp so am at a loss for ideas. My Google searches aren't helping much at all, unfortunately!

                                                            Regards,

                                                            Angela Bourbonnais (who's speed sewing their costumes)


                                                            __________________________________________________
                                                            Do You Yahoo!?
                                                            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          • Peter Monahan
                                                            Angela In addition to the Squire s suggestion, a skipping rope made of real rope and/or a rag stuffed ball (of leather orm cloth)would be appropriate for any
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Jul 17, 2005
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              Angela

                                                              In addition to the Squire's suggestion, a skipping rope made of real rope and/or a rag stuffed ball (of leather orm cloth)would be appropriate for any age. A cutout wooden musket or pistol, while not "PC" in 2005 terms is very appropriate for 1812 and popular with all ages. In a pinch, crooked branches work too!

                                                              You can probably recruit some olders as "sitters" who mwould take the littlers ona tour of the camp to meet the dogs and other kids too. Ask when you check in which families are there. Most of our young adults are very responsible that way! Hope to see you there.

                                                              Peter Monahan,
                                                              Royal Nfld Reg't

                                                              =========================================================
                                                              From: Angela <deedle_momof3@...>
                                                              Date: 2005/07/16 Sat PM 03:17:08 EST
                                                              To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                                              Subject: [WarOf1812] Family Games?


                                                              G'Day Folks,

                                                              Well, I'm tickled right pink! My husband has finally decided to join me in a re-enactment event this summer. He and our three children will be accompanying me on Sutler's Row at Wasaga Beach. After three years of pestering him, I really want him to enjoy this as the family event I've worked it up to being.

                                                              Our three children are ages 2, 5 and 8. This was a last minute decision and there's no time to order and games via Jas Townsend or the like. Does anyone have any suggestions for games for us and the children? My husband is handy with woodwork and he'd have no problem whipping something up in time - I just haven't seen many family games around camp so am at a loss for ideas. My Google searches aren't helping much at all, unfortunately!

                                                              Regards,

                                                              Angela Bourbonnais (who's speed sewing their costumes)


                                                              __________________________________________________
                                                              Do You Yahoo!?
                                                              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                                              http://mail.yahoo.com

                                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                                              The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

                                                              Unit Contact information for North America:
                                                              ---------------------------------
                                                              Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                                              http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                                                              American Forces Unit Listing
                                                              http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                                                              Yahoo! Groups Links





                                                              ============================================================


                                                              Peter Monahan
                                                              petermonahan@...
                                                              705-435-0953 home
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